(ACCEPTED) (Terraria Downgrade) Regarding the Wall of Flesh and Celestial Pillars

[Overlord775]

I think the purple one is missing too more orbiting it. I also don't know if the Vortex background thing currently has a ring actually in game.

no idea what you are talking about the nebula pillar, but the vortex one very much does have the moon with a ring around it

I'm going to assume you agree with my points about the Wall as you haven't brought up any points against it.

Yeah, no issues there. Never really understoof the lore of the ancient spirits enough to comment on it.

This still doesn't talk about the fact that the feat is vague. All it does is vaguely transport some celestial body (moon or planet, doesn't matter too much) relatively close to the World somehow. There aren't any mentions of them physically moving the celestial body literally anywhere, from game statements to developer statements. What this means is that the feat could be anything from teleportation, to spatial manipulation, to even just creation. It's impossible to concretely say what is happening.

there are several others events that directly mess with the moon, yet they basically all of them have no direct statements about them either. Two of them include trasmutating the entirity of the moon into either snow or bio-matter (pumkin), yet nothing anywhere even refences them at all. So no, its not unique for ti to not be really talked about, its probably because its supposed to be obvious at first glance honestly

As for the armor and weapons: how does that prove anything? It's not like we can scale them to the Moon Lord as his scaling is currently based upon being at least equal to the Pillars.

Your use their essence to make them, the very same essence that can be used to perform the feat. This is the same as something like naruto or dragonball, you are using the same exact souce of power both to perform a feat AND to attack.

This is like hooking up 18 nuclear power plant to laser gun, and thinking the output of the laser doesn't scale to the output of the nuclear powerplants

As said before, I assume you agree with my points about the Wall. If you agree with these points, however, it would mean that there would be a pretty weird discrepancy.

If the Wall of Flesh is downgraded, it would mean that it would be scaled to Skeletron, or 8-A.

Every boss post-WoF from Queen Slime to Duke Fishron has their tier based upon the Wall's moon level scaling. If the Wall is downgraded to 8-A, this means that the bosses pre-Cultist would be much weaker than what is currently shown on their profiles.

Why am I saying all this? If the Champion Post-Golem is 8-A, that would mean that somehow, the gear they get in between Golem and the Cultist would somehow bump them up from 8-A all the way to 3-C (galaxy).

(of course, as the statement is the "power of a galaxy", it would likely only scale to 4-B, or solar system level as shown by this calc)

Do we see the issue here? Even though the rest of the game's drops are similar to the level of the boss beaten, you would have to assume that 8-A enemies/bosses would, for some reason, drop GALAXY LEVEL ITEMS.

iirc there were higher feats, like the wall of flesh's KE and duke fishron creating a storm that stretches all the way to space

you could reasonably also scale the Golem to moon level since lihzardian magic is able to move the moon in the form of solar tablets, but that seem sketch scaling tbh

Anyway, the game litterally jumps from you fighting automatons and chimeras to eldritch dieties, so the insane power jump is very much justified narrativelly. You are fighting against being who harness the fundamental forces of creation, actual moments after fighting robot santa mechs. Its almost 1to1 to doomslayer going from fighting random demons to killing the god creator of the multiverse, its a ridiculus power jump yes, but one very much varranted.

also about the "power of a galaxy" thing, i very much believe the interpretation of the calc is based ona wrong assuption. It doesn't say "ALL the power of a galaxy" after all, could be any amount of it, especially since the Nebula Pillar bestiary description says ""Representing a stormy celestial body known as 'nebula', this tower holds the seal locking away a terrifying tyrant."" so its logically more the power of a nebulae, rather than an entire galaxy

Regarding this, it doesn't really matter if the celestial body is the Moon or not, as the feat in itself is vague. (which I assume you know as you started talking about the Nebula fragment's tooltip)

Ocram's razor, the pillar show both far range magic-like abilities (as they mentain the moon lord's seal while on earth) and the ability to defy gravity (they floating), so them moving the moon is more likely than unmentioned cosmic bodies teleportation/creation.

and for what's worth, the lunar hook, one of the few items made with all 4 Lunar Fragment has a description of "'You want the moon? Just grapple it and pull it down!'"

 

[Overlord775]

The feat of moving the moon seems oddly specific to being used on the moon alone or affecting only it. So scaling it to physicals and such wouldn't make sense. I'm still willing to see more of the counter argument but what is presented so far doesn't seems to satisfy it address some of the issues

they are the lunar events, caused by the Lunar Cult, to revive the Moon Lord, of course it would only be messing with the moon, its not oddly specific at all. They Pillars exerting their power on the moon is their whole job, they are the seals of the moon.

 

[Lou_change]

no idea what you are talking about the nebula pillar, but the vortex one very much does have the moon with a ring around it

This is the moon you circled where are the smaller two bodies.

I don't know what to tell you

 

[DuckyMcLucky]

there are several others events that directly mess with the moon, yet they basically all of them have no direct statements about them either.

All this proves is that those feats are also unable to be used to scale physical stats.

Two of them include trasmutating the entirity of the moon into either snow or bio-matter (pumkin), yet nothing anywhere even refences them at all. So no, its not unique for ti to not be really talked about, its probably because its supposed to be obvious at first glance honestly

...is your point that the Celestial Pillars' feat of moving a celestial body isn't the only feat that's not elaborated on in Terraria? I don't get what you're trying to argue here.

Your use their essence to make them, the very same essence that can be used to perform the feat. This is the same as something like naruto or dragonball, you are using the same exact souce of power both to perform a feat AND to attack.

This is like hooking up 18 nuclear power plant to laser gun, and thinking the output of the laser doesn't scale to the output of the nuclear powerplants

??? this is circular reasoning
The feats of the armor and weapons that the fragments are crafted into are currently based upon the Pillars. Right now, we're arguing about the current tier of the Pillars, meaning that you can't just assume that the Pillars scale to High 5-A for the sake of your argument.

In your example, we already know that nuclear power plants are as strong as they are. In your actual argument, we don't know how strong the Pillars/Fragments are.

You're basically saying:

The Moon Lord scales to the Pillars's 5-A scaling

The fragments scale to the Moon Lord's 5-A scaling

Therefore the Pillars are 5-A

iirc there were higher feats, like the wall of flesh's KE and duke fishron creating a storm that stretches all the way to space

Well, I can't really do anything with this information lmao

you could reasonably also scale the Golem to moon level since lihzardian magic is able to move the moon in the form of solar tablets, but that seem sketch scaling tbh

The Solar Tablets would also fall under the same umbrella of being vague, so I agree with your last portion.

Anyway, the game litterally jumps from you fighting automatons and chimeras to eldritch dieties, so the insane power jump is very much justified narrativelly.

Many of the bosses are literally just Cthulhu's organs (EoC, BoC, every mech boss), so assuming that they would be somewhat relative to the Moon Lord (a weaker version of himself) isn't really a stretch in my eyes. From what I see, you fight Cthulhu's organs along with other bosses that scale to those organs, and then fight the Moon Lord who's a weaker version of Cthulhu.

You are fighting against being who harness the fundamental forces of creation, actual moments after fighting robot santa mechs.

...fighting against who?

Its almost 1to1 to doomslayer going from fighting random demons to killing the god creator of the multiverse, its a ridiculus power jump yes, but one very much varranted

Ehhhh, I'm not really the most knowledgeable about DOOM, but from what I see on the profile it is shown for 3 entire games that he's on those cosmic levels of power.

also about the "power of a galaxy" thing, i very much believe the interpretation of the calc is based ona wrong assuption. It doesn't say "ALL the power of a galaxy" after all, could be any amount of it, especially since the Nebula Pillar bestiary description says ""Representing a stormy celestial body known as 'nebula', this tower holds the seal locking away a terrifying tyrant."" so its logically more the power of a nebulae, rather than an entire galaxy

cool

Ocram's razor, the pillar show both far range magic-like abilities (as they mentain the moon lord's seal while on earth) and the ability to defy gravity (they floating), so them moving the moon is more likely than unmentioned cosmic bodies teleportation/creation.

I don't think Occam's Razor would apply here? I think the explanations I presented could all be what's happening in the feat.

and for what's worth, the lunar hook, one of the few items made with all 4 Lunar Fragment has a description of "'You want the moon? Just grapple it and pull it down!'"

That tooltip is a reference to It's a Wonderful Life, so I would be careful using it for scaling. There are other references ingame that aren't meant to be taken seriously.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I think 4-B is fine to replace scaling. The pillar stuff is so clearly meant to be cosmic and portray cosmic levels of power. The game pretty much hammers this in across every tooltip. Also 8-A starts in the early game and enemies get way stronger as you progress. Them being 8-A is simply due to lack of better feats rather than a hard cap.

This is a game with progression based drops. With any sort of decently large tier jumps there's inevitably gonna be issues of "why does this thing drop X tier items". I dont think this is an issue, especially when the intent is very much for these pillars to be cosmic. You dont at all need gradual tier jumps and can have something thats quite a big jump if the game itself is saying it.

Saying something like eye of cthulhu being somewhat relative to the moon lord to disprove higher scaling is absolutely ridiculous and goes against the actual game itself. It is very clearly an extremely weak early game boss, while you need heavy degrees of progression past that to even fight the moon lord properly. There are simply parts that are vastly more superior by unfathomable degrees as we see with the literal moon lord.

Also the 4-B rating would be multiplied by however many fragments they drop.

 

[Lilybitdun]

Agree: @Mommyleona, @YmTheSuper, @Lilybitdun

Disagree:

Inconclusive:

Don't forget to add Damage's vote

 

[Liveware]

I agree with the downgrade proposal and to help make sure everyone is on the same page of the current majority consensus, I will compile all of the information here.

The purpose of the celestial towers is to seal away the moon lord on the moon, with the “star destroyer” achievement further alluding to their purpose. The celestial bodies that the celestial towers bring are called planets by the creators of the game “The Lunar Invasion planets visible in the sky”, while the moon's appearance can be changed by the moon globe this doesn’t mean that the celestial bodies we see in the invasion and the moon are the same for a few significant reasons.

1. The moon globe can’t change the appearance of the celestial bodies we see in the lunar invasion proving that it's not the moon.
2. The purple moons appearance made by the moon globe has two smaller celestial bodies, neither of which we ever see with the Nebula Pillar.
3. This would be going against WoG, to say that these are the moon and in fact NOT planets is literally arguing against the creators of the game.

This ultimately wouldn’t scale to The Terrarian as these planets weren’t moved, you summon them with the monolith. At no point do we ever see any movement occur and the fact that these planets fade in and out the background further prove that they are just being summoned. Thus The Terrarian would lose their High 5-A ratings while likely gaining further information for their summoning ability on their Post-Cultist key.

 

[DuckyMcLucky]

Don't forget to add Damage's vote

o shit, mb

added, don't know how i missed them LMAO

 

[Overlord775]

All this proves is that those feats are also unable to be used to scale physical stats.

why? how?

...is your point that the Celestial Pillars' feat of moving a celestial body isn't the only feat that's not elaborated on in Terraria? I don't get what you're trying to argue here.

That almost nothing is really elaborated in terraria, if you go down that route you'd get street level moon lord (gets hurt by a boulder running at human running speed) and that's just nonsense

its a sandbox game, not skyrim, almost nothing is explained in detail, if at all

??? this is circular reasoning
The feats of the armor and weapons that the fragments are crafted into are currently based upon the Pillars. Right now, we're arguing about the current tier of the Pillars, meaning that you can't just assume that the Pillars scale to High 5-A for the sake of your argument.

In your example, we already know that nuclear power plants are as strong as they are. In your actual argument, we don't know how strong the Pillars/Fragments are.

You're basically saying:

The Moon Lord scales to the Pillars's 5-A scaling

The fragments scale to the Moon Lord's 5-A scaling

Therefore the Pillars are 5-A

no???? i'm saying that the pillars are 5-A because the fragments can be used to do a 5-A feat, fragments of their power are 5-A, so their power is 5-A.

to further prove that the fragments scale to AP, the solar pillar directly weaponizes solar fragments

Many of the bosses are literally just Cthulhu's organs (EoC, BoC, every mech boss), so assuming that they would be somewhat relative to the Moon Lord (a weaker version of himself) isn't really a stretch in my eyes. From what I see, you fight Cthulhu's organs along with other bosses that scale to those organs, and then fight the Moon Lord who's a weaker version of Cthulhu.

okay so a major thing wrong here, moon lord and Cthulhu are the same guy, the developers confirmed as such

while the EoC, BoC, and EoW are parts of the moon lord, they are organs that were ripped off centuries ago... and you know, organs existing outside of the body deteriorate, so they really don't scale to the Moon Lord at all.

...fighting against who?

I cannot blieve you don't know Santa-NK1, the peak of terraria monster design. Do you even terraria

I don't think Occam's Razor would apply here? I think the explanations I presented could all be what's happening in the feat.

You are assuming powers they have not showcased, that's worse in the scale of assuptions.

That tooltip is a reference to It's a Wonderful Life, so I would be careful using it for scaling. There are other references ingame that aren't meant to be taken seriously.

I mean yes, but also like its a grappling hook- pulling things closer is kinda the point of them

I agree with the downgrade proposal and to help make sure everyone is on the same page of the current majority consensus, I will compile all of the information here.

The purpose of the celestial towers is to seal away the moon lord on the moon, with the “star destroyer” achievement further alluding to their purpose. The celestial bodies that the celestial towers bring are called planets by the creators of the game “The Lunar Invasion planets visible in the sky”, while the moon's appearance can be changed by the moon globe this doesn’t mean that the celestial bodies we see in the invasion and the moon are the same for a few significant reasons.

1. The moon globe can’t change the appearance of the celestial bodies we see in the lunar invasion proving that it's not the moon.
2. The purple moons appearance made by the moon globe has two smaller celestial bodies, neither of which we ever see with the Nebula Pillar.
3. This would be going against WoG, to say that these are the moon and in fact NOT planets is literally arguing against the creators of the game.

changelogs ae not reliable source, when everything in game points to them being the moon instead, with star destroyed specifically mentiones they are "Pillars of the moon"

If they summoned whole ass planets it would be in their bestiary, or anywhere on the invasion minions' bestiary, but nothing!

This ultimately wouldn’t scale to The Terrarian as these planets weren’t moved, you summon them with the monolith. At no point do we ever see any movement occur and the fact that these planets fade in and out the background further prove that they are just being summoned. Thus The Terrarian would lose their High 5-A ratings while likely gaining further information for their summoning ability on their Post-Cultist key.

They fade in and out because that's how terraria handles backgrounds, unless you want to believe that mountains also fade in and out of existance this is irrelevant

 

[DuckyMcLucky]

I think 4-B is fine to replace scaling. The pillar stuff is so clearly meant to be cosmic and portray cosmic levels of power. The game pretty much hammers this in across every tooltip.

yeah that's a good point

4-B terraria real?

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

yeah that's a good point

4-B terraria real?

Apparently galaxy stuff should be 5-A and not 4-B lmao by using luminosity of stars instead of KE and whatever

 

[DuckyMcLucky]

bumpppp

 

[Mommyleona]

bumpppp

you already have 3 votes lol

 

[Lou_change]

I guess we need replacement stuff.

 

[DuckyMcLucky]

you already have 3 votes lol

Yeah sure, just keep in mind that I don't have voting rights.

i think i need one more because ym doesn't count

 

[DuckyMcLucky]

oh wait is it just 2 votes

 

[Lilybitdun]

Only controversial/popular verses need 3 votes, regular CRTs like this one only need 2

 

[DuckyMcLucky]

could i just make the changes then?

 

[Lilybitdun]

could i just make the changes then?

Yeah

 

[Mommyleona]

i think i need one more because ym doesn't count

did you miss @TheGreatJedi13 vote?
Not like you need 3 anyway

 

[DuckyMcLucky]

alright, i'll change their tier to "At least 8-A (Can harm Post-Skeletron Champion)"

 

[DuckyMcLucky]

would i also have to remove all of the Notable Matchups?

 

[DuckyMcLucky]

might create another crt for nebula fragment upscale unless someone else wants to do that (looking at you, Overlord775)

 

[Legend_of_the_Night0425]

Regarding the Celestial Pillars, the celestial body is seen in the background isn't even the moon, and it never has been. They're referred to as planets in the game files and by the devs in the changelogs.

 

[Liveware]

Regarding the Celestial Pillars, the celestial body is seen in the background isn't even the moon, and it never has been. They're referred to as planets in the game files and by the devs in the changelogs.

Just out of curiousity, do you have a picture of the background being called planets in the game files?

 

[Legend_of_the_Night0425]

Just out of curiousity, do you have a picture of the background being called planets in the game files?

Category:Terraria source files

This Category contains all files on this Wiki extracted or created from extracted files from the Terraria source.

terraria.wiki.gg

I'm also looking for the time a dev referred to them as lunar planets in one of the patchnotes

 

[Legend_of_the_Night0425]

I'm also looking for the time a dev referred to them as lunar planets in one of the patchnotes

Found it!

There & Back Again: A Summary of Journey's End

Journey's End is very near, Terrarians! This update has been a labor of love, tirelessly worked on by our team over a good while, and we truly feel that it brings Terraria to the next level, to a place where the core game can finally be called "complete". From new ways to play the game to...

forums.terraria.org

 

[Legend_of_the_Night0425]

Ocram's razor, the pillar show both far range magic-like abilities (as they mentain the moon lord's seal while on earth) and the ability to defy gravity (they floating), so them moving the moon is more likely than unmentioned cosmic bodies teleportation/creation.

Category:Terraria source files

This Category contains all files on this Wiki extracted or created from extracted files from the Terraria source.

terraria.wiki.gg

There & Back Again: A Summary of Journey's End

Journey's End is very near, Terrarians! This update has been a labor of love, tirelessly worked on by our team over a good while, and we truly feel that it brings Terraria to the next level, to a place where the core game can finally be called "complete". From new ways to play the game to...

forums.terraria.org

 

[Lou_change]

ta-da

 

[Liveware]

yeah, I think at this point I don't see any reasonable way anyone can argue that they're not just planets.

 

[Lilybitdun]

Why is the moon vs planet thing even being argued? It doesn't scale to physicals either way

Has this thread been applied so it can be closed?

 

[Overlord775]

okay sure fine

that just makes the feat 5-B instead, it doesn't disprove it really

 

[Overlord775]

Why is the moon vs planet thing even being argued? It doesn't scale to physicals either way

Has this thread been applied so it can be closed?

i did, in fact, give arguments why it can, you are just purposely ignoring them

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Just wait there's a better feat to use thats way more easy to argue to scale physicals that OP might make a thread for

 

[Overlord775]

whats even the ******* point to debate anything if the other side is just going to ignore your arguments anyway?

 

[Overlord775]

alright, i'll change their tier to "At least 8-A (Can harm Post-Skeletron Champion)"

btw where in the heck does that name come from? the players are always referred to as Terrarians, not Champion

 

[Lou_change]

btw where in the heck does that name come from? the players are always referred to as Terrarians, not Champion

Terrarian is used to refer to people who play the game or anything from the world of terraria

 

[Overlord775]

anything from the world of terraria

actually where?????

 

[Legend_of_the_Night0425]

actually where?????

Terrarian Gothic painting, apple pie flavour text, bestiary entries for The Possessed, Etherian Goblins, and Tesla Turrets

 

[DuckyMcLucky]

Why is the moon vs planet thing even being argued? It doesn't scale to physicals either way

Has this thread been applied so it can be closed?

it's been applied

sorry for not answering, notifs were bugging out for some reason