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[Accepted] Kishin Seiken (Demonic Sword) Multiplier

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So, since there are 6 pages here (how? for Lookism, really?), I suppose just reading OP won't suffice. Any summary, please? What's the dividing point here?
 
MrKerf said:
So, since there are 6 pages here (how? for Lookism, really?), I suppose just reading OP won't suffice. Any summary, please? What's the dividing point here?
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A solid 4 pages of that is just me and windy bickering lol sowwy ;w;

There is summary by cat lover and windy a few pages up I'll try to find it reply to it so you can see it
 
WindyAttack said:
Argument 1: Kishin Seiken

1. CQC being a 3x multiplier was already accepted by the staff in a previous CRT, making it the established baseline.

2. Me and Aksh have already proven that Daniel has CQC in his arsenal through his Copy ability.

3. Kishin Seiken is explicitly stated to be the strongest attack in Daniel's arsenal.

Conclusion: Since CQC, a 3x multiplier, is part of Daniel's arsenal, and Kishin Seiken is explicitly stated to be superior to every attack in that same arsenal, Kishin Seiken must logically be at least a 3x multiplier.

Argument 2: OVT and Death Kick

1. OVT is stated to multiply the user's power many times over.

2. The majority agrees this supports at least a 4x multiplier for OVT.

3. Death Kick is portrayed as superior to OVT.

Conclusion: OVT should receive a 4x multiplier, while Death Kick should receive at least a 4x multiplier, with the only remaining disagreement being whether Death Kick should instead be rated as 5x.
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Summary by Windy (in support of CRT)
 
CatLover313 said:
The first multiplier that was accepted was a 3x AP/LS multiplier to True Ultra Instinct for Gun Park (CRT here).

The 2nd multiplier accepted was for CQC (Close Quarter Combat) which is a martial arts in Lookism. There are two types: Regular CQC and a Custom-Style CQC. The CRT here was to give it a 3x multiplier because the Custom-Style CQC had a statement of "increasing the users power hundred-fold", but since that was seen as too much, it was lowered to 3x AP/Speed/LS. (All the regular version had was a statement of "Greatly increasing the user's power").

The only live disagreement is Kishin Seiken's proposed 3x multiplier, which hinges on whether Gun Park actually has Custom-Style CQC in his arsenal, covered above in many arguments with the main disagreement being that the link in the chain hasn't actually been demonstrated on-panel. Can summarize our reasons again but will leave it unless asked.
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Summary by cat lover (side against CRT)
 
CatLover313 said:
Here's a quick summary. The disagreemen of the 3x multiplier for Kishin Seiken because it rests entirely on an unproven chain: Gun's combat ability being "on par" with UI Daniel is a general skill-tier comparison, not evidence he shares UI Daniel's specific technique inventory, and the "knows/mastered all martial arts" lines are vague narrative statements with no on-screen demonstration as Gun has never shown, used, or taught CQC, nor has any of his disciples used it. Even granting he "knows" CQC, the source material distinguishes baseline CQC ("the most basic military martial art") from the upgraded, hundredfold-scaled version tied to having the 3x boost. I have kind of been mostly skimming through the rest of the arguments after page 2 started, but this is what I believe is the sum of the counter-argument.
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Reasoning summary against CRT by cat lover

The reasoning summary in favour of the CRT is the CRT itself so I am not gonna tag it lol
 
Okay, I guess I see the logic behind Kishin Seiken upscaling from CQC.

Feint and Counter require wordplay which I won't touch, but 3x should be fine.

Death Kick upscaled, so should be at least 3x, but whether reaches 4x and above, I can't determine.
 
MrKerf said:
Okay, I guess I see the logic behind Kishin Seiken upscaling from CQC.

Feint and Counter require wordplay which I won't touch, but 3x should be fine.

Death Kick upscaled, so should be at least 3x, but whether reaches 4x and above, I can't determine.
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I'll just forward some of the main arguments from me, Pyro, and Pxnd. I was really just arguing against Kishin Seiken, nothing else. I won't add anything new that's already said, and if Windy and Aksh want to reply, hopefully they can just forward their old responses too. But basically can summed down to if the statement of him knowing and mastering CQC itself is reliable.
CatLover313 said:
The statement for Gun could be argued as a hyperbole especially since he really does lack any evidence of ever using nor teaching CQC considering he nor any of his disciples have ever been shown using CQC ngl. Unlike UI Daniel who contains multiple statements from different fighters about his skill prowess. But I won’t argue for that and it can be something staff can ask more on.

Assuming it is true though, granting Gun theoretically "knows" CQC, that only gets him the foundation, and the panels that were used in the 3x CQC CRT distinguished baseline CQC and the upgraded version, which is explicitly tied to a personally trained and customized style built on top of that foundation ("depending on the styles you create"). Manager Kim has his own custom CQC that he made which is taught to Warren so it’s fair for them to get the 3x multiplier. So what needs to be proven is that Guns mastery in CQC is high enough to justify a Unique CQC for the multiplier which results in your Kishin argument and said evidence besides that one quote is very very lacking.

Ultimately though, really seems like that one quote of knowing every martial arts without demonstrating it is hard carrying this CRT and seems more like a staff decision thing rather than anything anyone can argue ngl.
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CatLover313 said:
Yes, it really is as simple as that. Gun has never shown CQC, never mention it, and none of his students has ever even used it. Let alone the fact that you keep trying to interpret UI Daniel of knowing every martial art to mean Gun does too using an nearly 5 year old statement when we’ve had many retcons/changes of older ideas throughout the years like mastery being changed multiple times, guns inconsistent power level, sinu generation change, UI itself having its mechanisms changed, guns reasonings for teaching Daniel, some Vin statements, and let’s not even mention how PTJ butchered his timeline so much, that he had to explain his own timeline in Cheonliang.

So if all the evidence for the multiplier is a 5 year old IG post and vague hyperbolic statements with not even an “indication” of him using or even saying CQC in the series, then I’ll have to be firm on disagreeing.
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Pyro9278 said:
Two hyperbolic statements do not make a consistent statement. If PTJ’s intention was for Gun to have the CQC then it proves that he used it MINIMUM once.

With Daniel UI the statements make sense and if there is a way to prove it because it is part of his character and his narrative. With Gun, the closest we can say is that because he is the Training Genius, he knows the CQC and trains to counter it.
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Pxnd_013 said:
Um, Gun himself even admitted that he wasn't familiar with Jichang's technique, which is the martial art known as the knifehand strike

So are you saying that he's mastered every martial art, just like Daniel?
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Pxnd_013 said:
What I meant was that I was replying to the author of the CRT.

Of course, Gun knows what CQC is, but that doesn't necessarily mean he can use it. He said he would teach Daniel every martial art, but that could simply mean every martial art that he himself is capable of using. It doesn't necessarily mean every martial art that exists in the world, especially considering that he wasn't even familiar with the knifehand strike.
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CatLover313 said:
I'll just forward some of the main arguments from me, Pyro, and Pxnd. I was really just arguing against Kishin Seiken, nothing else. I won't add anything new that's already said, and if Windy and Aksh want to reply, hopefully they can just forward their old responses too. But basically can summed down to if the statement of him knowing and mastering CQC itself is reliable.
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I can't believe it JUST now dawning on me after several days of bickering that the fact that Daniel is STILL copying and learning new moves goes against Gun quite literally knowing/teaching Daniel every martial art on the planet, since Jageyon and Yujae use Takkeyon which is a traditional Korean martial art not a martial art they themselves made up, yet Daniel still copied them implying he didn't know it prior, same with Pacheon's wing chun and uh whatever Changu's knife BS is, and also Jinrang's elbows lol

It also just dawned on me that Daniel didn't know Mujin's bone gripping ssiserium until he unlocked half reverse eyes despite LITERALLY having fought alongside Vin Jin AT LEAST twice (Cheoninlang and Busan) which I think also puts into question whether or not Daniel actually knows CQC since he apparently somehow couldn't copy gripping someone by the ribs before slamming them into the ground💀
 
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Firestorm808 said:
How narratively consistent is it for there to be a 27x gap for the high tiers?
Click to expand...
Honestly, not very consistent. In "Hunt for Gun," Johan actually uses CQC against Gun Park and still gets thoroughly outclassed, even while running on adrenaline despite being heavily injured. Yet earlier in that same arc, a fully healthy Gun with no adrenaline boost is consistently getting tagged by other second-gen fighters arguably comparable to, or even slightly weaker than, base Johan. Not sure how the AP scaling looks right now, but on the speed side: the current highest feat is 913.85 m/s. There's a thread proposing a 9x boost to one character (8,224.65 m/s), which converts other high/top tiers' base speed to 2,741.55 m/s, with that character also gaining CQC to reach the boosted value. Some are arguing to stack an additional 3x on top of that, with nothing in between supporting the jump. I don't have an issue with the base 9x given his CQC use is at least somewhat shown, but there is a lack of intermediate feats. Worth noting, CQC shows up a lot more and is used more consistently in the Manager Kim spinoff, so it's probably worth getting input from people who know that series better. That said, the original statement there was that Custom-CQC increases power a hundredfold, but that wasn't narratively consistent either, so this CRT lowered it to 3x.
 
Aksh_sky said:
Basically what's happening here there's a technique known as CQC, which is already accepted as a 3x AP boost and the main premise of the first part of the OP is that there's a charecter knows as Daniel part and the author of this thread and me have proven that Daniel knows CQC and can use that technique, which means he can theoretically attain a 3x multiplier if he uses that technique. Now that is NOT his strongest technique as it's stated to be a technique knows as Kishin Seiken, thus Kishin Seiken should be at least a 3x multiplier.



Now for the second premises. There's another technique known as feint and counter that's used by Jaegyeon Na and Yujae Seon, in which if someone attacks at them, they basically deflect their attack back at them but with output 'many' times higher. And since a mod once said that 'several' at least would mean 3x and 'many' would mean 4x, therefore feind and counter should be a 4x multiplier. This is consistent because pre awakened Jaegyeon basically got one shotted by Yujae when he used this technique as he took 4 times his own attack's output.



For the third one, Death Kick and Dead Hand. These are Jaegyeon Na and Yujae Seon's unique skill, which basically are their strongest attacks respectively. Basically their ult. Now these are clearly stated to be their strongest attack and strongest technique and beyond their previous limit and all that, so those should also be at least a 4x multiplier from their base stats. This is consistent as the Death Kick one shotted Yujae Seon after Yujae literally defeated Jaegyeon with ease and Yujae hadn't even taken much damage either so this should be consistent. What also should make it consistent is that Yujae tried to use feint and counter on Death Kick but it didn't worked and Death Kick overpowered Yujae's feint and counter so it should be at least a 4x multiplier over base.



And since Yujae and Jaegyeon and narratively shown to be rivals and are shown to have equal similar techniques so obviously Dead Hand which is stronger than Death Kick, therefore it should also be an at least 4x multipler.
Click to expand...
Summary
 
MrKerf said:
Okay, I guess I see the logic behind Kishin Seiken upscaling from CQC.

Feint and Counter require wordplay which I won't touch, but 3x should be fine.

Death Kick upscaled, so should be at least 3x, but whether reaches 4x and above, I can't determine.
Click to expand...
What's your stance on kishin sekin?
 
MrKerf said:
Feint and Counter require wordplay which I won't touch, but 3x should be fine.
Click to expand...
Ic, but don't you think 'many' should be 4x instead of 3x? I've seen statements where 'many times' is used being accepted as 4x.
 
CatLover313 said:
Honestly, not very consistent. In "Hunt for Gun," Johan actually uses CQC against Gun Park and still gets thoroughly outclassed, even while running on adrenaline despite being heavily injured. Yet earlier in that same arc, a fully healthy Gun with no adrenaline boost is consistently getting tagged by other second-gen fighters arguably comparable to, or even slightly weaker than, base Johan. Not sure how the AP scaling looks right now, but on the speed side: the current highest feat is 913.85 m/s. There's a thread proposing a 9x boost to one character (8,224.65 m/s), which converts other high/top tiers' base speed to 2,741.55 m/s, with that character also gaining CQC to reach the boosted value. Some are arguing to stack an additional 3x on top of that, with nothing in between supporting the jump. I don't have an issue with the base 9x given his CQC use is at least somewhat shown, but there is a lack of intermediate feats. Worth noting, CQC shows up a lot more and is used more consistently in the Manager Kim spinoff, so it's probably worth getting input from people who know that series better. That said, the original statement there was that Custom-CQC increases power a hundredfold, but that wasn't narratively consistent either, so this CRT lowered it to 3x.
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I don't think so that's what he asked. Also this is from a seperate crt so idk.

Speaking of consistency then you're just stating it such that it makes it sound Inconsistent but it isn't much actually.

Recieving multipliers over forms, modes or attacks are pretty common to be higher than one's base stat at face value, especially in Lookism when many fights starts with one getting overpowered and overwhelmed badly to suddenly them overwhelming the opponent, take Eli vs Vasco for an example, unquanfiable but noticible stat difference at a new form, which was runner's high as he went from getting no diff to no diffing no AI Eli. Likewise, in this case if we just look at numerical value without knowing proper context then, Adrenaline itself should also be a multiplier and could possibly get accepted via chainscaling from CQC just by having better feats because even after a 'supposed' 3x over 'base'(which clearly isn't base or even remotely comparable to that) Adrenaline injured Gun still overpowers CQC Johan, right? BUT ACTUALLY NO...Johan only was able to overpower base Gun using UI Copy which I've already established to be relative to CQC so CQC and UI Copy are relative in terms of stat increase so saying that even though Johan got 3x stronger and all that couldn't beat adrenaline Gun would be stupid because he only could overpower injured base Gun via UI Copy which scales to CQC and if Adrenaline increases stats, which it does then that'll just mean adrenaline would overpower UI Copy the same way it overpowered CQC Johan so it won't really make Adrenaline a 3x multiplier, rather an unquanfiable one because Johan infact started with a multiplier relative to CQC to overpower Gun in the first place and ONLY THEN Gun used Adrenaline to overpower THAT just like how Jake was getting overpowered by Gun in HFG but using conviction, he was able to deal serious damage to him, making conviction an unquanfiable but noticible multiplier too. So it isn't like UI Copy doens't increase Johan's stats at all or make it be js like his base for the 3x to be applied over that but the UI Copy itself is a 3x within itself.

I mean not saying things like 'because this wiki has accepted pretty narratively incosnsistent and ridiculous multiplier stacking which are just accepted due to maybe bias supporters or lack of people negating those args that's why this shouldn't be incosnsistent'(which is true imo) but as for consistency then at least in Lookism never had ever been shown a case where the usage of cqc felt underwhelming or not much stronger compared to user with base stats.
 
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Well, I won’t comment on anything else (unless asked), hopefully the previous (10ish?) comments are enough to represent both sides and get this resolved.
 
Firestorm808 said:
How narratively consistent is it for there to be a 27x gap for the high tiers?
Click to expand...
It's difficult to define. Lookism is a constantly evolving manhwa, and as it progresses, recent chapters clash with earlier ones, showing characters who could fight relatively well against high-tier characters despite those characters only being Wall Level against Large Building Level (currently). We also can't create specific strategies for these situations because retcons are actively being implemented.
 
Aksh_sky said:
I don't think so that's what he asked. Also this is from a seperate crt so idk.

Speaking of consistency then you're just stating it such that it makes it sound Inconsistent but it isn't much actually.

Recieving multipliers over forms, modes or attacks are pretty common to be higher than one's base stat at face value, especially in Lookism when many fights starts with one getting overpowered and overwhelmed badly to suddenly them overwhelming the opponent, take Eli vs Vasco for an example, unquanfiable but noticible stat difference at a new form, which was runner's high as he went from getting no diff to no diffing no AI Eli. Likewise, in this case if we just look at numerical value without knowing proper context then, Adrenaline itself should also be a multiplier and could possibly get accepted via chainscaling from CQC just by having better feats because even after a 'supposed' 3x over 'base'(which clearly isn't base or even remotely comparable to that) Adrenaline injured Gun still overpowers CQC Johan, right? BUT ACTUALLY NO...Johan only was able to overpower base Gun using UI Copy which I've already established to be relative to CQC so CQC and UI Copy are relative in terms of stat increase so saying that even though Johan got 3x stronger and all that couldn't beat adrenaline Gun would be stupid because he only could overpower injured base Gun via UI Copy which scales to CQC and if Adrenaline increases stats, which it does then that'll just mean adrenaline would overpower UI Copy the same way it overpowered CQC Johan so it won't really make Adrenaline a 3x multiplier, rather an unquanfiable one because Johan infact started with a multiplier relative to CQC to overpower Gun in the first place and ONLY THEN Gun used Adrenaline to overpower THAT just like how Jake was getting overpowered by Gun in HFG but using conviction, he was able to deal serious damage to him, making conviction an unquanfiable but noticible multiplier too. So it isn't like UI Copy doens't increase Johan's stats at all or make it be js like his base for the 3x to be applied over that but the UI Copy itself is a 3x within itself.

I mean not saying things like 'because this wiki has accepted pretty narratively incosnsistent and ridiculous multiplier stacking which are just accepted due to maybe bias supporters or lack of people negating those args that's why this shouldn't be incosnsistent'(which is true imo) but as for consistency then at least in Lookism never had ever been shown a case where the usage of cqc felt underwhelming or not much stronger compared to user with base stats.
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Doesn't this contradict the fact that Johan's Copy is technically a physically comparable version of himself from 3A? Remember that UI Daniel adapts to the level of others... In any case, Johan would be powering up based on UI Daniel's "perfect" techniques, however, this still creates a contradiction with UI Daniel's "adaptable" nature. Establishing a multiplier would be quite problematic in that case, to be honest.
 
Pyro9278 said:
Doesn't this contradict the fact that Johan's Copy is technically a physically comparable version of himself from 3A? Remember that UI Daniel adapts to the level of others... In any case, Johan would be powering up based on UI Daniel's "perfect" techniques, however, this still creates a contradiction with UI Daniel's "adaptable" nature. Establishing a multiplier would be quite problematic in that case, to be honest.
Click to expand...
Not really as Johan copies UI Daniel's perfect body, techs and physiology, not his UI itself of his stats 1-1 that he saw him using. Johan doens't have UI Daniel's UI, he just has his tech, perfect body and physiology that I've already stated and is even shown in the manhwa, also Johan's UI copy has shown to overpower opponents and isn't shown to be as strong as his opponents so he doens't copy his weakness either, and UI Daniel's stats while fighting Johan comes under his weakness... WHICH HE DOENS'T COPY.

Think of it as he copies 'the perfect body and perfect machine-like movements' or at least tries to imitate it to say the least because it's still not as perfect as UI Daniel himself obviously because UI Copy has his own weakness, being it's 10 seconds time. But what he does NOT copy he his weakness because not only Johan's copy is not perfect enough to copy stats like Jinyoung does but he just copies the techniques because Johan doens't know about UI Daniel's weakeness, neither would he like to copy a weakness either.

That's actually pretty stupid if u think about it because Johan also copies MK's CQC but he JUST copies the TECHNIQUE CQC, not MK's stats while HE uses CQC because if he did, he'd be broken af and would create narrative inconsistency and it's even shown that he doens't copy stats, same applies for opponents at his level too js like his stronger. You just don't understand how Johan's copy works.
 
CatLover313 said:
2 staff votes, but just to confirm, mrkerf comment was a confirmed approval for the other moves, rather get an exact confirmation on the kishen one….
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So overall 3 votes and since we already have 1 we just need 2 more or it's just 2 overall?

Also yea @MrKerf what's your evaluation on kishin sekin?
 
I do agree with Mrkerf.

But the kishin sekin do hinges on a lot of assumption. Seeing how the verse also has inconsistent scaling for gun park.

It would be better to not assume 3x scaling. So I disagree with kishin sekin
 
WindyAttack said:
I believe we should have at least a 3x multiplier for Demonic Holy Sword.

Since it’s stated to be Gun’s strongest attack, and we know Gun has knowledge of CQC because he has combat ability on par with UI Daniel, who himself knows CQC.

This should be consistent because it’s stated again and again for both Gun Park and UI Daniel that they know all martial arts and have already mastered them. By the time this statement was made, CQC had already been introduced, so it should be inclusive of that as well.

Since we know Daniel Park is a copy user and has the ability to replicate anything after seeing it just once, and he has already seen Warren use CQC, it logically means CQC should be part of his arsenal.

(P1: CQC is the combination of all combat units/stances used together. To copy CQC, a person must first have seen and copied all of those combat units/stances.

P2: Daniel witnessed Warren use all of his combat units during the fight against Minsik, and he has seen CQC being used twice.

C: Therefore, Daniel has seen all the required combat units/stances and knows CQC.)

Yet despite that, the strongest attack Daniel Park uses is still Kishin Seiken, which directly supports the idea that Kishin Seiken is superior to CQC.

And since CQC is already accepted as a 3x multiplier, this should apply to Demonic Holy Sword too, considering it’s directly stated to be above Gun’s other attacks.

Now this should be consistent, since other Kings’ attacks like Jinrang’s or Taesoo Ma’s copy were tanked by Paecheon with literally zero visible damage, while Kishin Seiken made him cough up blood and sent him flying into a faraway wall, even making him nearly lose consciousness. So it was something close to a one-shot.

Bonus point: I believe Feint and Counter should also be at least a 3 times multiplier, since it’s stated that it multiplies the attack many times over. potentially reaching a 4x multiplier, since "several" implies 3 times, while "many" would mean at least 4 times. This should be consistent, as Yujae believes Feint and Counter could most likely knock out Jaegyeon Na in a single attack.

Now, I believe Death Hand and Death Kick should also receive a multiplier on par with Feint and Counter, around 4x or even a little higher, like 5x, since narratively they are stronger than 2T Unique Skills because they are 3T Unique Skills.

This should be more consistent because it’s stated that Yujae, through training, became stronger and a monster by developing Death Hand. On top of that, it’s also stated that Jaegyeon overcame his own limits by developing Death Kick, which would make his previous limit, Feint and Counter, inferior to his current 3T skill.

This should be further consistent since Yujae couldn’t defeat Jaegyeon with Feint and Counter, while Jaegyeon was using Death Kick, making it clearly superior to it.

Agree: @CatLover313 (Only Agrees with Feint And Counter Being a 3x multiplier) @Pyro9278 (Same As Cat) @Kakistan (Agrees With Everything) @JirensMom (Same As Cat) @MVMRainAngel (agrees with everything) @Soul80 (Same As Rain) @Pxnd_013 (Same As Rain but he thinks death kick is 4x multiplier) @Aksh_sky (Same As Rain) @WindyAttack (Same As Rain) @TheLaurels (Same As Rain) @Powerscalingcat (Only Agrees with 2x Multiplier for Feint and Counter and 3x for Death Kick) @Nonynho (Agrees With Everything Being a 3x Multiplier)

@MrKerf [Staff Vote] (Agress With 3x Multiplier of Kishin Sekin / Feint and Counter & Death Kick / Death Hand) @TheGreatJedi13 [Staff Vote] (Agrees With Feint and Counter, Death Kick, Death Hand Having a at least 3x multiplier)

Neutral:

Disagree: @Powerscalingcat (Disagrees with kishin sekin being a 3x multiplier) @TheGreatJedi13 [Staff Vote] (Disagrees With Kishin Sekin Having 3X Multiplier)
Click to expand...
I agree with everything
 
WindyAttack said:
So overall 3 votes and since we already have 1 we just need 2 more or it's just 2 overall?

Also yea @MrKerf what's your evaluation on kishin sekin?
Click to expand...
Its 2 overall, but I forgot what to do in case 1 admin agrees and the other disagrees lol

I think we wait for a third, if a third says yes to the 3x we implement it if a 3rd says no to 3x we don't implement it

But do take my words with a grain of salt its been a while since I've done a CRT
 
Powerscalingcat said:
Its 2 overall, but I forgot what to do in case 1 admin agrees and the other disagrees lol

I think we wait for a third, if a third says yes to the 3x we implement it if a 3rd says no to 3x we don't implement it

But do take my words with a grain of salt its been a while since I've done a CRT
Click to expand...
I mean from the looks of it both agree with OVT and Death Kick stuff (Should be good to implement)

But... Kishin sekin has both 1 Agree and 1 disagree
 
WindyAttack said:
I mean from the looks of it both agree with OVT and Death Kick stuff (Should be good to implement)

But... Kishin sekin has both 1 Agree and 1 disagree
Click to expand...
Yeah I meant the kishin seiken specifically sorry for the confusion.
death hand/kick and feint & counter both got a 3x by the admins
 
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