Isekai at Peace: Will, Name, etc

[Legacy30]

This CRT is to propose certain haxes to be attached to will and names...and other stuff related to them. In chapter 34 of Yuusha Shoukan Gaiden, we are introduced to two new mechanics:

Spoiler: Will and Name

Spoiler: Painting over the will

Spoiler: axe with authority-like power

-Gaiden 31

Going by the scans, names have the power to stabilize and solidify an existence, and is a fundamental part of an existence, which I propose as CM. However, the character, Korne, cannot grant a name onto an axe, which has a power close to a god's authority without removing its bloodthirsty will, and thus imply that a will can resist being named. To succeed, she had to take the necessary step of washing away its will that was influenced with hatred with her own will, and then name it.

From here, it is straightforward that willpower can resist CM. Now, I will be discussing on what type of CM exactly it should be:

Spoiler: Isis given a name

-chapter 1509

It's established that Isis Remnant's existence is her magic power of death, which is an authority, which is her soul, which is also CM1, IM2, law, and other neat stuff. Since she can be named, hehe, why can't names be CM1, IM2, law, and data also? Wait, weren't we just talking only about CM? Leave it to our girl to complicate everything by dragging all of these big name haxes just for being mentioned.
This isn't the only time where names explicitly have power.

Spoiler: The gods' names

-chapter 997

-chapter 211

-chapter 221

-chapter 354

The Gods of Trinia use their names to perform True Blessings, and only when the blessed person has their name in conjunction with the Gods' name can they be permitted to learn magic stemming from the God's Authority. Thus the Gods' names are like keywords to using their authority (CM1, IM2, Law, Data stuff), defining their nature of existence to be capable of it.

So...what about will? Were there more moments when will could resist all of these things? In fact, there were several!

Spoiler: Alice standing up to makina

-chapter 769

-chapter 780

Alice, using her supernatural willpower, could resist Makina's existence, who is similar and has everything Isis has. And then there's Kaito who resisted the full power of Isis' magic power of death with just his mental strength. This should be sufficient enough evidence to grant both will and names CM1, IM2, law, etc.

But I'm not done yet. What is will? It's mental strength, emotions, and the mind. From this blog, the mind is a part of the soul, and the soul exists on a deeper level than it. And from the peerage page, magic power, the main power system of the verse, is a power from the soul and from where thoughts and emotions dwell.

What's interesting about the mind is its interactions with a virtual world.

Spoiler: Mental clones and virtual worlds

-chapter 536
A tool is used to create a mental clone to enter a virtual world.

-chapter 540
Same virtual world created to suppress Isis' magic power of death, but failed.

-chapter 2169
Shallow Vernal used that virtual world as inspiration to create another one with its own unique space-time.

-chapter 2155
Similarly, you don't enter this world with your physical body, but with a mental clone created with a tool. And in another virtual world created by Shallow Vernal, she sent the souls of Kaito's parents in there, and they could interact with the digital beings inside, and those same digital beings can have their souls revived outside of that world by Kaito.

With all this, I also believe mind/magic power/soul should be fundamental aspects of an existence on an IM2 level. Isis' existence is her magic power, and removing it is the same as remaking her existence. This aspect is not unique to Isis, as replacing the original magic power of a person with someone else's will destroy their entire existence. Fate's magic power was going to get swallowed up by Shiro's magic power, and this kind of annihilation to her existence was of a severe degree that not even Life's Authority, which can revive people killed by Isis' magic power of death that kills souls, can revive her.

ADDITIONS:
Will, Names, Mind, Magic Power, and Soul get CM1, IM2, Law, and Data Manipulation.
Names become a fundamental with CM1, IM2, Law, and Data.
Mind/Magic Power/Soul become fundamentals with IM2 and Data.
Any character that uses Magic Power gets CM1, IM2, Law, and Data Manipulation.
Alice gets supernatural willpower.

Agree: @Celestial_Pegasus
Disagree:
Neutral:

Please be respectful and don't derail the thread with unrelated topics.

 

[Fantric]

As the first person to see this, agree.

I have no idea wtf is going on atp lol.. HGR Peak Counts..?

 

[Orioreeem]

Seems fine

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

The premise makes sense, but this feels like stretching things to the absolute limits. Names being something which defines a person's existence and all that is cool, but the example of Isis being name was done by Kuro, who as we all know has power comparable to Shiro, authority level in other words.

Basically my thing here is extrapolations like anyone with Magic Power getting CM1, IM2, Law, and Data Manipulation, based on the example of Isis being named by someone who has an authority, isn't this innately contradictory, authorities are the rule/law/concepts, how can any random person exercise power on that level, when it's stated repeatedly that authorities>magic?

Another example is using Alice, who at that point had authorities or power like that, as a baseline for defining what any willpower is capable of.

In short I agree, but this only applies to level the characters have shown it, and not a general thing.

 

[Fantric]

As much as I've understood, it's the difference between interaction and active Manipulation ngl. Authorities hold absolute control and can freely Manipulate things. While the Magic Power giving only passive interaction.

Think, Alice being stated to kill the mind, when everyone has mind interaction. It's like everyone having it, but a few having the entire next lvl of it.

 

[Legacy30]

The other example is using Alice, who at that point had an authorities or power like that, as a baseline for defining what any willpower is capable of.

I mean, Korne is affecting the axe right there with her will, which is like an authority, and even giving it a name. She's just a strong demon, not like a god with quasi-omnipotent power. There's also the matter of there being concepts, and then there's authorities. When Shiro and Eden used their powers to decide the outcome of a coinflip, both logic and concept of the world was bent. Basically, there are concepts, and then there are authorities which are also concepts but also the logic of the world. I'm differentiating the two as authorities are just deeper than the other.

Another example is this:
Evil God magic power being resisted by human will, the emotion of hope. The magic power of despair by the Evil God is that of a world creator's.

 

[Fantric]

Basically, there are concepts, and then there are authorities which are also concepts but also the logic of the world. I'm differentiating the two as authorities are just deeper than the other

Interaction and active Manipulation would capture the difference right? I think that way, it's easier to understand?

 

[Legacy30]

Interaction and active Manipulation would capture the difference right? I think that way, it's easier to understand?

Possibly, it's not like Lilia could use the Authority of Time or magic stemming from it. She needed to have her name in conjunction with Chronois' after having her True Blessing. Of course, I'm not saying everyone can accomplish what Korne, Alice, or Kaito does, there are degrees to this. However, a random demon could affect the axe with his will, and they are naturally weaker than Korne, and the result is that they were consumed in turn and died. Willpower is, well, you need a lot of oomph of it to do big things. A person with a weak willpower can't do the same thing as someone with a much stronger one can naturally.

 

[Fantric]

Possibly, it's not like Lilia could use the Authority of Time or magic stemming from it. She needed to have her name in conjunction with Chronois' after having her True Blessing. Of course, I'm not saying everyone can accomplish what Korne, Alice, or Kaito does, there are degrees to this. However, a random demon could affect the axe with his will, and they are naturally weaker than Korne, and the result is that they were consumed in turn and died. Willpower is, well, you need a lot of oomph of it to do big things. A person with a weak willpower can't do the same thing as someone with a much stronger one can naturally.

I mean, yea. Just cuz you can punch a spirit doesn't mean you can wrestle Valac lol(maybe you can? Movie one was weak). But doesn't change the fact you CAN punch a soul. That's why I don't see a problem with interaction, which is honestly everything we need.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Another example is this:
Evil God magic power being resisted by human will, the emotion of hope. The magic power of despair by the Evil God is that of a world creator's.

This is more convincing, what I was concerned about is application really, billions of human willpower being able to overcome an authority could make sense, just like it makes sense for Kuro's will to be able to overwrite Isis existence.

Saying Aoi could overwrite Isis existence for example would be a big no for me.

Where was it said the axe is on the level of an authority btw? I remember it said Shiro created it.

Edit: Saw it in the op.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

The axe's effects essentially do similar things to what an authority does, so it is almost like a God's authority, to me though gonna have to say it isn't on the level of an authority, it just displays similar effects.

We may need to look at the raws for a better translation, but to how it's worded to me, I don't think it is an authority it just has similar effects.

 

[Legacy30]

I think you're also confusing magic power for magic. Magic and Authorities both use magic power, but the latter is just naturally superior on an existential level. If you think of it like this, the rule of Magic < Authority still holds while magic power can interact with all of this.

 

[Fantric]

Pretty sure MPoD is said to be "comparable to Authority" too?

Not too sure on the axe's wording but pretty sure when the sentence "comparable to Authority" is mentioned, Toudai is telling us it is one. Kinda.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Sidenote, Alice being the Hero of Hope and embodiment the mindset of if she can't win as she is, she just needs to become a version of her who can, and that because people's thoughts and hope doesn't end (Chapter 643), her strength also grows infinitely, is pretty good evidence towards the whole willpower argument, Alice is as cranked as she is due to willpower.

 

[Legacy30]

Sidenote, Alice being the Hero of Hope and embodiment the mindset of if she can't win as she is, she just needs to become a version of her who can, and that people's thoughts and hope doesn't end (Chapter 643), is pretty good evidence towards the whole willpower argument, Alice is as cranked as she is due to willpower.

Literally.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I think you're also confusing magic power for magic. Magic and Authorities both use magic power, but the latter is just naturally superior on an existential level. If you think of it like this, the rule of Magic < Authority still holds while magic power can interact with all of this.

Yea, we do already do the whole thing about magic power coming the soul and what not.

Billions of people together can affect an authority, which means individually they probably can just to a lesser extent, though you could argue maybe the more willpower you gather, you can achieve things not possible individually ie interacting with an authority, having a kind of multiplication effect, though even then that still tells something about the nature of willpower, being something which could affect an authority.

I forgot about the whole thing with Kaito as well, where his magic power could be used to suppress Isis magic power of death, though you can argue that Isis willingly allows it due to her love for Kaito, and Kaito being one of the strongest characters mentally in series, has a high willpower which allows the interaction.

 

[Fantric]

I mean, there's no way an individual Will is affecting Authority in a very much notable way unless the Willpower belongs to a monster(Alice and Kaito). But there are statements about Kaito being the strongest in Will and such, not that the "quality" of his Will is different.

I mean, the whole argument is that a single Will CAN interact with something as Conceptual as Authority, just that it's not really on a relevent scale. But the thing remains, they CAN interact.

Same with the entire Humanity's Willpower overriding Authority, which imo works more like a quantity multiplier since nothing about quality is actually stated or implied imo.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Another thought came to me again, I always found it weird Alice could contend with God's like Fate with their authorities simply because her power comes from another world, but what exactly is that power? Heart tools, which grow along with the mind of their user and contains the soul... Alice has a strong mind/soul, which is why she can contend with authorities.

So all in all, I think as a matter of NPI, this is good, but it's the people with actual strong willpower that can affect these things (data, cm2, info2) in a significant way.

 

[Fantric]

NPI is all I need to wank it to high heavens

Well, got one Admin vote ig?

 

[Legacy30]

Another thought came to me again, I always found it weird Alice could contend with God's like Fate with their authorities simply because her power comes from another world, but what exactly is that power? Heart tools, which grow along with the mind of their user and contains the soul... Alice has a strong mind/soul, which is why she can contend with authorities.

So all in all, I think as a matter of NPI, this is good, but it's the people with actual strong willpower that can affect these things (data, cm2, info2) in a significant way.

Low tier peeps can't do anything significant to high tier people even with these haxes to willpower inverse. However, in a cross versus debate...

Spoiler

Alice is called the Incarnation of Hope, and was transformed into a monster that surpasses the Evil God by the hope of the world...

But there are statements about Kaito being the strongest in Will and such, not that the "quality" of his Will is different.

Correction, there are statements that says Kaito's mental strength is on the level of a god's authority. He's a freak of nature. Shameless Kaito upscale, he can hold Isis' hand while surrounded by her magic power of death without his Sympathy Magic. Same magic power of death that's superior to the magic power of despair that covered the entire world and its billions of humans.

 

[Fantric]

Correction, there are statements that says Kaito's mental strength is on the level of a god's authority. He's a freak of nature. Shameless Kaito upscale, he can hold Isis' hand while surrounded by her magic power of death without his Sympathy Magic. Same magic power of death that's superior to the magic power of despair that covered the entire world and its billions of humans.

I mean, I meant in like a natural way. Pretty sure being anchored by him is like being anchored by an entire Civilization lol(maybe much more). Plus we know the Will of a Civilization = Authority lvl. What I meant by "quality" is that he doesn't have anything supernatural(lol) going on with that. It's his natural thing. Not that it's not special. It's just so high it substitutes that much.

Tho shameless Kaito upscale indeed. We might need an entirely new terms to classify him bruh... "Supernatural Willpower" just feels wrong atp

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

In practical terms, everyone just gets the ability to affect authorities to a small extent, while people like Base Kuro will get the uber hax, which frankly she should have had a while ago, plus supernatural willpower.

Alice is Alice, and gets all the hax from her first key + supernatural willpower, and then Kaito basically already has all the hax listed already but we can expand lol.

Also strong willpower has been shown to resist stuff like authorities, you could now use that to argue in a vs match that Kaito or Alice just resists other hax used on them.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Okay, from what I can see, names can be argued to be Conceptual Manipulation, but at best they would only qualify as Type 3 Concepts. I also disagree with interpreting simply giving something a name as CM, since it isn't done in a supernatural way.

---

"Korne cannot grant a name to an axe that possesses power close to a god's authority without removing its bloodthirsty will, implying that a will can resist being named."

The "resistance" argument above doesn't make sense. Nothing was actually resisted.

---

"It's established that Isis Remnant's existence is her magic power of death, which is an authority, which is her soul, which is also CM1, IM2, law, and other neat stuff. Since she can be named, why can't names also be CM1, IM2, law, and data? Wait, weren't we only talking about CM? Leave it to our girl to complicate everything by bringing all of these major hax abilities into the discussion just because they're mentioned. This also isn't the only time names are explicitly shown to have power."

A Type 3 Concept governing a law, a Type 1 Concept, IM2, or data does not automatically gain the properties of what it governs, nor does it make its influence universal.

---

Then there's the argument about Alice standing up to Makina. Since when did did existence pressure become Conceptual Manipulation? Lol And, by the way, it was already debunked that Isis's passive abilities are CM1.

Then there's the argument about needing a mental clone to enter that world made out of information. There is literally no statement saying that the soul/mind/magic power themselves are information etc, so I disagree with that entire argument for other reason as well it just doesnt make sence.

Overall, I disagree with everything except willpower thing on @Celestial_Pegasus interpretation/proposal

 

[Fantric]

The "resistance" argument above doesn't make sense. Nothing was actually resisted.

Uhh... Pretty sure it WAS resisted tho? The fact the Willpower was needed to be pulled out means naming it simply isn't possible without doing that. I think that's what "resistence" is?

A Type 3 Concept governing a law, a Type 1 Concept, IM2, or data does not automatically gain the properties of what it governs, nor does it make its influence universal.

My brain isn't braining on this one... Are you trying to say that influencing a concept doesn't grant the other things it's governing? If so, pretty sure Authorities don't govern info and says as a whole, but they fundamentally Manipulate their specific concept on that lvl. Authorities are Universal by default tho.

Then there's the argument about Alice standing up to Makina. Since when did did existence pressure become Conceptual Manipulation? Lol And, by the way, it was already debunked that Isis's passive abilities are CM1.

We don't talk about this. EVERYTHING WCs do is default CM1...

Then there's the argument about needing a mental clone to enter that world made out of information. There is literally no statement saying that the soul itself is information , so I disagree with that entire argument for other reason as well it just doesnt make sence.

The argument is essentially based on the fact that you need a mental clone to interact with a world of info. Using the simplest language i know, it's like, Mental = mind, mind is the part of the soul so Soul get's that too. Plus Isis's MPoD working there completely fine when it's tied to her soul/existence.

Overall, I disagree with everything except willpower thing on @Celestial_Pegasus interpretation/proposal

What does this even mean....?

 

[Legacy30]

Okay, from what I can see, names can be argued to be Conceptual Manipulation, but at best they would only qualify as Type 3 Concepts. I also disagree with interpreting simply giving something a name as CM, since it isn't done in a supernatural way.

---

"Korne cannot grant a name to an axe that possesses power close to a god's authority without removing its bloodthirsty will, implying that a will can resist being named."

The "resistance" argument above doesn't make sense. Nothing was actually resisted.

---

Alice's words can be trusted as she told Korne she had to do it by step, that she must overwrite the will of the axe before giving it a name, which strongly implies that giving it a name can't be done as the will is in the way. And the naming is being done in a supernatural way? The supernatural will of the axe is preventing it from happening, hence the act itself had to be supernatural too.

Then there's the argument about Alice standing up to Makina. Since when did did existence pressure become Conceptual Manipulation? Lol And, by the way, it was already debunked that Isis's passive abilities are CM1.

Isis passives are CM1 when she's serious tho? That's still a thing and in the profiles. Also, it's already established that a world creator's existence, meaning their everything, is CM1, IM2, and all that jazz. Makina's just naturally exerting her existence over Alice, and Alice resists with willpower.

Then there's the argument about needing a mental clone to enter that world made out of information. There is literally no statement saying that the soul itself is information , so I disagree with that entire argument for other reason as well it just doesnt make sence.

The emotions of hope of the world and her Heart Tool transformed Alice's existence into something that surpassed the Evil God, which is a World Creator, in which its existence is IM2. Emotions are also said to be information that could transform Makina's existence into a god. The mental clone also gains the memories and whatnot inside as it returns to the person's main body. And btw, the mind is just a part of the soul, where the soul is deeper than it, so naturally, if the mind has IM2 properties, so does the soul. This isn't even getting into the digital beings like the doppelgangers of Kaito's lovers.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

agree

 

[Enter_Bluey]

I am kinda of similar opinion to Pegasus above

I can see the logic in willpower tho. So if that were the case it would be supernatural willpower, and CM1, info, law as sub abilities. I just don't think everyone would have it, only certain people (korne, alice, etc). And it will allow them to idk override abilities on that level and resist them? I am not sure how I feel about any character doing these shenanigans crossverse though...think we'd need more for that

That said iirc in Khorne's case it acts as authority by ignoring magic, Alice's will for sure is a better example

 

[Fantric]

I am kinda of similar opinion to Pegasus above

I can see the logic in willpower tho. So if that were the case it would be supernatural willpower, and CM1, info, law as sub abilities. I just don't think everyone would have it, only certain people (korne, alice, etc). And it will allow them to idk override abilities on that level and resist them? I am not sure how I feel about any character doing these shenanigans crossverse though...think we'd need more for that

That said iirc in Khorne's case it acts as authority by ignoring magic, Alice's will for sure is a better example

The reason why everyone would have it is just that, all the people's hopes and Willpower overrode Evil God's Authority. So while not scale, Interaction is definitely there.

People like Alice, Kaito and such have scale too.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

The reason why everyone would have it is just that, all the people's hopes and Willpower overrode Evil God's Authority. So while not scale, Interaction is definitely there.

People like Alice, Kaito and such have scale too.

Eh that's another thing, Alice's world is obviously different from Trinia so while she may have it how do we know those from Trinia work the same way? But I won't harp on that one too much since six kings can resist authority level stuff for whatever reason..

It's just while the potential of the will is there, they can't utilize it, hence why they can't challenge authority. If they can't do anything to it, then how do we know they are even interacting with it? Like the "sub abilities" section of willpower would be restricted for certain people, but I guess everyone can have the base "supernatural willpower"? Idk

I could see iap making a whole heirarchy or levels to the willpower where X rank can do X things...author randomly clarifies at certain points

 

[Fantric]

One word: Kaito.

Bro survived MPoD.
Bro forced his magic to adapt out of sheer will.
Bro's magic power can coat Isis.

Bro is from Earth. So not exclusive to Alice and her World.

 

[BoastJr]

Anyways I agree ! It seems fine

 

[Enter_Bluey]

One word: Kaito.

Bro survived MPoD.
Bro forced his magic to adapt out of sheer will.
Bro's magic power can coat Isis.

Bro is from Earth. So not exclusive to Alice and her World.

Yeah Kaito, the unique dude that is not from Trinia. Whose world was made by Makina, who was technically gifted her powers from Alice, who iirc used a piece related to the WC from her world It all leads back to Alice

Unless we wanna say world creators have that willpower stuff and put it into their creations. Which unironically may make sense since some can evolve too...tho Makina is omnipotent and omniscient level who can do that so not everyone at the same level