Fireball Jutsu is kinda strong (Naruto CRT)

[Godernet]

Good afternoon, everyone!

This one should be a lot quicker than the previous thread.

Spoiler: Fire Ball Jutsu

So, Katon: Gokyakou no Jutsu (or Fire Style: Fire Ball Jutsu) has a statement of doubling the power of the Katon chakra it's used for. (Verified for accuracy with our Translation Staff)

Does this make sense mechanically? Absolutely.

For one, we know that Fire Style, in general, is supposed to require a larger quantity of chakra than what should be possible for your average Genin, meaning it takes more energy than enhancing physicals, which all Shinobi, including Genin, do.

This, along with the principle of change in chakra form, which is also stated to increase the power of the chakra it utilizes.

So yeah, that's a pretty straightforward 2x amp for Fire Ball Jutsu.

Spoiler: Chidori and Rasengan

Chidori is an interesting one bc its pretty consistently shown and even indirectly stated to be a more powerful jutsu than Fireball Jutsu.

Which is again, pretty consistent in lore with various people capable of fighting Kakashi and Sasuke h2h, yet capable of being cut like butter by a Chidori.

Rasengan is also often portrayed as comparable in power to Chidori, with Naruto and Sasuke frequently demonstrating that fact with their various clashes throughout the series.

Spoiler: Conclusion

• Fire Style: Fire Ball Jutsu is 2x the physicals of the user (Affects: All users of Fireball Jutsu)
• Chidori should be at least a 2x amp from physicals due to being > Fire Ball Jutsu in power (Affects: All Sasuke profiles, Kakashi Hatake, and All Sarada profiles)
• A normal Rasengan should be up to a 2x amp from physicals due to being ~ Chidori in power (Affects: All Naruto profiles, Minato Namikaze, Jiraiya, Kakashi Hatake, All Boruto Uzumaki profiles)

Alright, that's all, folks! Let me know what y'all think!

Votes:

Agree: Suigetsuhyugs, DavidTPPM, DarkDragonMedeus, Testarossa002, AlternativePrinciple, KingTempest, JohnHendrix212, Stryker861,

Neutral:

Disagree:

Yes: Nierre

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Good afternoon, everyone!

This one should be a lot quicker than the previous thread.

Spoiler: Fire Ball Jutsu

So, Katon: Gokyakou no Jutsu (or Fire Style: Fire Ball Jutsu) has a statement of doubling the power of the Katon chakra it's used for. (Verified for accuracy with our Translation Staff)

Does this make sense mechanically? Absolutely.

For one, we know that Fire Style, in general, is supposed to require a larger quantity of chakra than what should be possible for your average Genin, meaning it takes more energy than enhancing physicals, which all Shinobi, including Genin, do.

This, along with the principle of change in chakra form, which is also stated to increase the power of the chakra it utilizes.

So yeah, that's a pretty straightforward 2x amp for Fire Ball Jutsu.

Should be fine.

Spoiler: Chidori and Rasengan

Chidori is an interesting one bc its pretty consistently shown and even indirectly stated to be a more powerful jutsu than Fireball Jutsu.

Don't know if that will stick, Sasuke says fire is ineffective against sand and then basically says that chidori should work, that might just mean
Lightning>>Sand>>Fire
Because of element counters. After all Gaara's Sand ability still comes from earth element mix which is weak to lightning in Naruto.[/spoiler]

 

[DavidTPPM]

Don't know if that will stick, Sasuke says fire is ineffective against sand and then basically says that chidori should work, that might just mean
Lightning>>Sand>>Fire

Sasuke explicitly says "the jutsu just isn't strong enough" when concluding he'll need a chidori. Fire wasn't effective because it wasn't strong enough.

Because of element counters. After all Gaara's Sand ability still comes from earth element mix which is weak to lightning in Naruto

Gaara uses magnet release which is actually a combination of earth and wind release. Wind release is the counter to lighting release. So the technique is actually not weak against lightning and Sasuke never even implies so.

And the sand itself is also natural, not created by chakra. So nature differences wouldn't necessarily apply to it

---

I'll also point out a funny supportive argument.
Fireball gets doubled in strength because it's shaped into a sphere. Rasengan is literally shaped into a sphere as well, and its even considered a higher ranking jutsu (meaning it requires more precise shape transformation) in difficulty and is considered the peak of shape transformation.

So we don't even need to scale it to chidori. We can just apply the multiplier directly to the rasengan itself.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks fine from a glance, and the wind + earth thing kind of balances out the strengths vs weaknesses thing.

 

[Testarossa002]

Nice work
Although, I'm iffy on the rasengan part
Not because it CAN'T be so, but because it's not a direct statement which is necessary for multipliers
I'd rather it be based on individual feats and not a general principle

Don't know if that will stick, Sasuke says fire is ineffective against sand and then basically says that chidori should work, that might just mean
Lightning>>Sand>>Fire
Because of element counters. After all Gaara's Sand ability still comes from earth element mix which is weak to lightning in Naruto.[/spoiler]

True but there's still the narrative intent part
Sasuke in every of his encounter with Naruto uses FBJ after which he immediately jumps to Chidori once Naruto counters the fire
I can think of 3 different situations (Rooftop and both VoTE fights)
It's also considered significantly harder to learn (Sarada's training for its use) + Sasuke indirectly considers it to be stronger when sarada asked him to teach her

 

[Godernet]

Should be fine.

Don't know if that will stick, Sasuke says fire is ineffective against sand and then basically says that chidori should work, that might just mean
Lightning>>Sand>>Fire
Because of element counters. After all Gaara's Sand ability still comes from earth element mix which is weak to lightning in Naruto.[/spoiler]

Sand isn’t a formal element to be countered in Naruto.

And Sasuke in the very same panel expands upon that thought by calling fireball jutsu too weak not even mentioning elemental counters.

Then says his only option is Chidori.

That’s paints a pretty clear picture that he’s saying Chidori > Fireball as far as output regardless

 

[Godernet]

Fireball gets doubled in strength because it's shaped into a sphere. Rasengan is literally shaped into a sphere as well, and its even considered a higher ranking jutsu (meaning it requires more precise shape transformation) in difficulty and is considered the peak of shape transformation.

So we don't even need to scale it to chidori. We can just apply the multiplier directly to the rasengan itself.

I'll avoid that for now to avoid future arguments like "all spheres in Naruto are 2x amps"

Besides, fireball is a change in chakra shape and nature, so you can argue that those two principles happening simultaneously could provide a greater amp.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Spoiler: Off Topic note

Kishimoto also hasn't been the most consistent in the elemental circle. While there was an initial introduction of each element having something dominant and another recessive towards, we demonstratively see a lot of unbalances. Water being dominate over Fire and Lightning being dominate over Earth are really the only ones consistent. Furthermore, there are even irony of lightning also being dominate over water. Because he seems to have gotten which element he made the weakness of water; forgot it was earth and not lightning. Not to mention, Lightning even showcased being dominant over the Kekkai Genkai Wood Style. Kekkai Genkai is supposed to be compositing to highlighted strengths while turning weaknesses into neutrals at least.

But anyway, Sand isn't really a produced Earth Style jutsu and he's merely gathering natural sand to form barriers and what not. So the elemental dominance thing wouldn't apply here.

 

[Godernet]

Nice work
Although, I'm iffy on the rasengan part
Not because it CAN'T be so, but because it's not a direct statement which is necessary for multipliers
I'd rather it be based on individual feats and not a general principle

True but there's still the narrative intent part
Sasuke in every of his encounter with Naruto uses FBJ after which he immediately jumps to Chidori once Naruto counters the fire
I can think of 3 different situations (Rooftop and both VoTE fights)
It's also considered significantly harder to learn (Sarada's training for its use) + Sasuke indirectly considers it to be stronger when sarada asked him to teach her

See, I would normally agree with you if it were just based on feats, but as you said, there's a lot of narrative intent that Rasenan is equal if not stronger than Chidori.

• Jiraiya musing that he would teach Naruto far superior Jutsu to Chidori (then teaches him Rasengan immediately after)
• Kakashi says Naruto is too young to handle that jutsu despite teaching Sasuke Chidori, and says he could have killed Sasuke.
• Jiraiya and Kakashi both point out that this is an increased output Chidori that Sasuke used vs Naruto's normal Rasengan.
• Sasuke's inferiority complex reaching its boiling point, specifically bc of how strong the Rasengan was compared to Chidori.
• Sasuke layering Inferno Style on top of his Chidori to counter Naruto's normal Rasengan in the final fight.

Plus the examples you mentioned and a few more.

When there's narrative, feats, and offhanded statements that something is the case, it probably is the case.

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

See, I would normally agree with you if it were just based on feats, but as you said, there's a lot of narrative intent that Rasenan is equal if not stronger than Chidori.

• Jiraiya musing that he would teach Naruto far superior Jutsu to Chidori (then teaches him Rasengan immediately after)
• Kakashi says Naruto is too young to handle that jutsu despite teaching Sasuke Chidori, and says he could have killed Sasuke.
• Jiraiya and Kakashi both point out that this is an increased output Chidori that Sasuke used vs Naruto's normal Rasengan.
• Sasuke's inferiority complex reaching its boiling point, specifically bc of how strong the Rasengan was compared to Chidori.
• Sasuke layering Inferno Style on top of his Chidori to counter Naruto's normal Rasengan in the final fight.

Plus the examples you mentioned and a few more.

When there's narrative, feats, and offhanded statements that something is the case, it probably is the case.

Don’t forget my fav water tank example

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Sasuke explicitly says "the jutsu just isn't strong enough" when concluding he'll need a chidori. Fire wasn't effective because it wasn't strong enough.

Ok

Gaara uses magnet release which is actually a combination of earth and wind release. Wind release is the counter to lighting release. So the technique is actually not weak against lightning and Sasuke never even implies so.

Technically wind and earth form the magnet release which is necessary to manipulate sand not create it, sand is still in Naruto stones broken into small pieces.

And the sand itself is also natural, not created by chakra. So nature differences wouldn't necessarily apply to it

---

I'll also point out a funny supportive argument.
Fireball gets doubled in strength because it's shaped into a sphere. Rasengan is literally shaped into a sphere as well, and its even considered a higher ranking jutsu (meaning it requires more precise shape transformation) in difficulty and is considered the peak of shape transformation.

So we don't even need to scale it to chidori. We can just apply the multiplier directly to the rasengan itself.

Kishimoto does have a thing for spheres and whatnot, I started to wonder if the explanation for the 2 times multiplier is indirectly related to reflective the opponents damage against himself considering that's what Kaiten and the explanation for Minato's rasengan and therefore it would apply to all abilities that relate with chakra flowing in a spheric trajectory.

 

[Nierre]

yes

 

[KingTempest]

Sand isn’t a formal element to be countered in Naruto.

And Sasuke in the very same panel expands upon that thought by calling fireball jutsu too weak not even mentioning elemental counters.

Then says his only option is Chidori.

That’s paints a pretty clear picture that he’s saying Chidori > Fireball as far as output regardless

Sasuke doesn't just say that his jutsu is too weak, he notes that fire all over is ineffective, which is why after the timeskip even Amaterasu doesn't work. We can get the translation checked but another translation notes the distinction between fire's weakness and the strength of the jutsu so this can still work.

Regardless, if you want scaling over fire style, just use rasengan dispersing the katon and the chidori being hinted to match it. That works

Well done

 

[Godernet]

Sasuke doesn't justsay that his jutsu is too weak, he notes that fire all over is ineffective, which is why after the timeskip even Amaterasu doesn't work. We can get the translation checked but another translation notes the distinction between fire's weakness and the strength of the jutsu so this can still work.

Amaterasu is a fair point, tho I do think Sasuke’s point does still imply that he thinks Chidori has more power than a fireball but fair enough.

Regardless, if you want scaling over fire style, just use rasengan dispersing the katon and the chidori being hinted to match it. That works

That’s something that crossed my mind but I figured a more direct statement would be better tho your points def are valid.

I’ll definitely work this into the final justification.

Thanks for the add ons

 

[KingTempest]

Of course, good work brudda

 

[JohnHendrix212]

• Sasuke layering Inferno Style on top of his Chidori to counter Naruto's normal Rasengan in the final fight.

Was that a normal Rasengan? Wasn't it stronger than usual because it literally put Kurama to sleep?

But yeah, totally agree with the premise.

 

[Stryker861]

Was that a normal Rasengan? Wasn't it stronger than usual because it literally put Kurama to sleep?

But yeah, totally agree with the premise.

Nah it waesent particularly big and we didn't see any indicator that it was beyond what naruto would have been able to do had he had his regular reserves. Kuruma just gave him the last reasonable amount he could to form 1

Great job as always net

 

[Godernet]

Was that a normal Rasengan? Wasn't it stronger than usual because it literally put Kurama to sleep?

It put him to sleep bc it was the last of both of their chakras after fighting for an entire day so he used so much to where he had to sleep for a while to recover.

But what I meant by normal Rasengan is that it was a Rasengan with no increased size or change in chakra nature against a Chidori with Amaterasu slapped on it.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Bump

 

[Godernet]

This one doesn't need a bump; it's already been accepted. I just need to write the justification out and apply it. Thank you, though.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

This one doesn't need a bump; it's already been accepted. I just need to write the justification out and apply it. Thank you, though.

Got it.

 

[Apotheosis69]

Finally Naruto has direct multipliers?

Can only wonder how this'll affect the scaling chain

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Was this finished?

 

[Nierre]

godernet will close it once he's written the justification.

 

[KingTempest]

(It's me, I'm GODERNET! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA)

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

(It's me, I'm GODERNET! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA)

Nettington going home after KT stole his identity and house:

 

[Liveware]

Finally Naruto has direct multipliers?

Can only wonder how this'll affect the scaling chain

from my understanding this would mean that Sasuke's physicals would only scale to half of the fireball jutsu's output because the fireball is disproportionately twice as strong as the amount of chakra put into it. it would also mean that everyone in part 1 Naruto who even remotely scales to Sasuke (including himself) would be downgraded to Large Building level+ [9.29 Tons] and Rock Lee would with the 1st gate would just be City Block level [46.45 Tons].

 

[KingTempest]

it doesn't backscale to sasuke's physicals, it only backscales to his regular fire style jutsus

 

[Godernet]

from my understanding this would mean that Sasuke's physicals would only scale to half of the fireball jutsu's output because the fireball is disproportionately twice as strong as the amount of chakra put into it. it would also mean that everyone in part 1 Naruto who even remotely scales to Sasuke (including himself) would be downgraded to Large Building level+ [9.29 Tons] and Rock Lee would with the 1st gate would just be City Block level [46.45 Tons].

That scaling is being updated soon regardless; it won't be using that calc as a basis.

ykw give me like two hours ill wrap this thread up

 

[Ozcantabak]

Would this make rasengan barrage a 4x amp ?

 

[Apotheosis69]

I guess so yeah, since its Two Rasengans in one.

And all other stronger Rasengan variants too, like Giant Rasengan, Massive Rasengan, etc.

 

[Godernet]

Alright, sorry for the wait. So the justifications will look like this,

Spoiler: Fireball users

X level physically, higher with Katon: Gōkakyū no Jutsu (The Fireball Jutsu uses a change in chakra form to double the power of the chakra it utilizes)

Spoiler: Rasengan users

X level physically, higher with Rasengan (Should be at least as powerful as Chidori, a jutsu that was indirectly stated to be more powerful than Fireball Jutsu, which doubles the power of the chakra it utilizes with a change in Chakra form)

Spoiler: Chidori users

X level physically, higher with Chidori (Sasuke indirectly states that Chidori has more power than the Fireball Jutsu; this is further backed by Naruto's Rasengan being capable of completely dispersing a higher output version of Sasuke's Fireball in their fight and Chidori's constant portrayal as a similarly powerful jutsu to Rasengan)

Spoiler: Kakashi

X level physically, higher with Raikiri (Should be as powerful if not more so than a standard Chidori, as Raikiri is Kakashi's more refined S-Rank variant of Chidori, a jutsu that was indirectly stated to be more powerful than Fireball Jutsu, which doubles the power of the chakra it utilizes with a change in Chakra form)

Spoiler: Affected Profiles

Rasengan Users

• Naruto Uzumaki (Part I)
• Naruto Uzumaki (Part II: Pre-War Arc)
• Naruto Uzumaki (Part II: War Arc)
• Naruto Uzumaki (New Era)
• Kakashi Hatake
• Jiraiya
• Minato Namikaze
• Konohamaru
• Boruto Uzumaki (Naruto: Next Generations)
• Boruto Uzumaki (Two Blue Vortex)
• Momoshiki Otsutsuki
• Kashin Koji

Chidori Users

• Sasuke Uchiha (Part I)
• Sasuke Uchiha (Part II)
• Sasuke Uchiha (New Era)
• Kakashi Hatake
• Sarada Uchiha (Naruto: Next Generations)
• Sarada Uchiha (Two Blue Vortex)

Fireball Users

• Sasuke Uchiha (Part I)
• Sasuke Uchiha (Part II)
• Sasuke Uchiha (New Era)
• Itachi Uchiha
• Obito Uchiha
• Madara Uchiha
• Sarada Uchiha (Naruto: Next Generations)
• Sarada Uchiha (Two Blue Vortex)

If I'm missing anyone, please let me know!

I'll ofc add references and scans as I add them to the profiles and adjust them for any added context from the individual profiles (like how Minato and Naruto can make way stronger versions of Rasengan)

I'll leave this up for now for anyone interested to look at before I get back from work and apply changes.

And any broader topics being affected by this change will be touched on in a thread pertaining to that section of the verse.

Thank you to all who participated!