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1. Most powerscalers here fully played new chapter.
2. Most of feats were analysed properly, calced and evaluated? (Which potentially could make your argument about 7-B being outlier erroneous)
Don't you agree that making huge CRT without properly analysing and dissecting new chapter is strange to do? Imagine, if someone tried to do giant scaling CRT for manga, while huge War Arc is ongoing. Every reasonable person would suggest to hold on these changes until Arc finishes properly.
The new chapter, to me at least, doesn't really have anything TO use. New Hax and abilities? sure, 100%. New scaling? Not really. I don't get why more lore = more scaling when it can just be an adventure. Also, in this case: the arc is already DONE, there's literally people with calcs all set up and ready to fire in a few days. I don't get your point.
Also this is literally irrelevant, Chapter 5 does not have Titans.
Now I ask again: are you here to actually progress the discussion or not?
You only highlighted part where I made one of the arguments for why we should wait a bit. I was asking for part where I supposedly assumed some disgusting intentions behind your thread.
People in chapter 5 discussion thread right now are hotly discussing about new chapter, on whether "Suns" are real or not, how 10 feet 20 should be interpreted, and many other things.
Let's take a look at Requirement 2 and 4 (Keep in mind, all four requirements are necessary for it to be considered a valid stabilization feat, so yes while 1 and 3 might fit {3 is kinda dubious btw}, it doesn't mean the feat is valid)
Requirement 2: Prove that the stabilized structure is being directly sustained by the power of the character and not from the character's abilities, life force, existence, magical properties, or any unknown connection that is independent of their statistics.
--
I think everyone here agrees that the stabilization feat from the Titan comes from his existence. Strym's reason(and I think the main reason to why it's used right now) to why it doesn't matter even if it comes from the Titan's existence is:
I think this can help with the idea of "attacks > existing" scaling, as you indeed do still exist while being forced to regenerate and heal, but are still too weak to properly attack during said state. Ralsei even says that "as long as the insides are intact, the battle will still be going" to say that Titan's regeneration pretty much replents its stamina too, can't really do that if the regeneration does not restore that too.
This does indeed, not. work. The Titan focusing on healing and defending himself when his outer shell is damaged does not mean that he's "too tired to attack", that his attacks > his existence sustaining the dark world, or anything of sorts, it simply means he doesn't wanna lose lol. It's a regular action to being damaged, and is something the fun gang also does, it's literally how turns work in general. When the Fun gang heal themselves mid-fight instead of attacking, it doesn't mean they are at low stamina or anything like that, or when they do the same and defend instead of attacking. Assuming that the Titan situation means what Strym said is a leap in logic and does NOT work. His outer shell being damaged would not affect the existence sustaining as well because his insides are undamaged and therefore his existence will still be intact like Ralsei says and the fight keeps going.
--
Requirement 4: Prove that the power of the character's stabilization consistently scales to their regular statistics, similar to our standards for creation feats.
This is the one people are confusing it as me claiming "it's an outlier" and that's it. I'm saying that the Titan does not fit this requirement since him being that strong is indeed not consistent/supported at all, that this level of power scales to his regular statistics or anyone even. Strym's response was:
Prove me it's not consistent lmao. A character with a single 7-B feat will definitely have it as valid by having it as superiority over a Low 7-C character, who on its own is that tier by one-shotting 8-A ones.
You're acting like these 3 are all on the same tier in-universe, but it's really not, at all.
Which is what I disproved. Not only does the extra/optional fights, that everyone hyper-focused on for some reason as if it was the only thing I said, show that they can still damage the Fun Gang even after Chapter 4, but regular darkners during both chapter 4-5 damage and are comparable to the fun-gang consistently, it is in-fact more consistent than trying to say they are have a ~3119x to ~12275x GAP between chapters, as that is never, EVER supported. Them getting stronger through LV means nothing since if you look at the fun gang stats:
Their Defense never changes, therefore their base durability never changes (ofc it goes higher with armor but thats irrelevant).
Ralsei even at Chapter 5 has lower base attack than Susie at Chapter 3, but would ya look at that:
So please inform me, how is it ever consistent that Titan and the Fun-Gang got 3300x - 12000x stronger, but if we go by the ONLY SHOWING OF THEM GETTING STRONGER (LV), Ralsei at Chapter 4-5 is weaker than Susie at Chapter 3. Where's the consistency?
--
So both Requirements 2 and 4 from our rules do not apply to this stabilization feat, therefore the feat is not valid.
Hope that clears it up.
I think you clearly skipped the point. I wasnt saying its an outlier because its too high. I said this stabilization (7-B feat) is inconsistent with their regular stats. Which it is, even if you wanna ignore the numbers and say "its just 3 tiers", thats still against our stabilization rules, specifically Requirement 4
I also did not simply talk about the inconsistency but the entirety rest of the point on how Requirement 2 also isnt fulfilled by the Titan feat.
I did not simply use the rematches.
I added how regular darkners throughout the chapters damage Kris. I used the optional fights as extra evidence.
However if you agree that theres no evidence fan gang did not get much stronger then how could I be wrong? It'd mean chapter 1-3 Kris is ~ chapter 4 therefore everyone that scales to chapter 1-3 kris (every darkner basically) would scale to the 7-B.
That's why I worded it as optional game fights - unless the regular Darkner fights are required and demonstrate that the protagonists struggle against them - these are all mostly just regular game fights. It's not like we scale every mob to the protagonists in video games.
Except I'm not trying to dismiss it as a simple outlier but as something that breaks our stabilization feat rules as the consistency is required in our rules page for the feat to even be accepted in the first place. If said consistency can not be shown then this is straight up breaking the rules, nothing more to say, the feat just straight up shouldn't be accepted, not "be called an outlier", that's the claim I'm making.
That's why I worded it as optional game fights - unless the regular Darkner fights are required and demonstrate that the protagonists struggle against them - these are all mostly just regular game fights. It's not like we scale every mob to the protagonists in video games.
The regular darkners are indeed required and damage the protagonists. I am talking about all the darkners that you encounter throughout Chapter 4 and 5's story not the extra/optional fights, I used those as supporting evidence and somehow everyone hyperfocused on it. Throughout both Chapter 4 and 5, you fight multiple darkners, and that is just required gameplay, and they damage/are comparable to you.
Plus what I sent in my big message now that I explained better straight up proves that through stats and the method of them "getting stronger" Chapter 2 Susie (Multi City-Block level) is stronger than Chapter 4 Ralsei (City level apparently). Either everyone is city level or no one is.
Again, nothing about Titans, so it doesn’t matter. Even if the Titan was upscaled to like.. star level or whatever…the principle of getting rid of them scaling to the fountain remains constant. I don’t get the issue here.
The regular darkners are indeed required and damage the protagonists. I am talking about all the darkners that you encounter throughout Chapter 4 and 5's story not the extra/optional fights, I used those as supporting evidence and somehow everyone hyperfocused on it. Throughout both Chapter 4 and 5, you fight multiple darkners, and that is just required gameplay, and they damage/are comparable to you.
Ehh, you could say the same thing about Goombas, ULTRAKILL Filths or basically any common enemy in any game.
And one thing VSBW loves is dumping those poor little goobers dozens of tiers below the main characters.
CH1-3 DR is kinda an exception for that rn cause there's several story-relevant moments where the fodder actually mess with the party.
Like,
Ya need to show moments like that for CH4/5.
Though that goes a bit beyond the scope of what this CRT is trying to do, as to why you should just make your own.
Ehh, you could say the same thing about Goombas, ULTRAKILL Filths or basically any common enemy in any game.
And one thing VSBW loves is dumping those poor little goobers dozens of tiers below the main characters.
Their Defense never changes, therefore their base durability never changes (ofc it goes higher with armor but thats irrelevant).
Ralsei even at Chapter 5 has lower base attack than Susie at Chapter 3, but would ya look at that:
There is quite literally no and I mean nilch arguments for them getting stronger between chapters apart from this (LV), which, as I showed, just proves my point.
I was about to make a response to all of that shit, but given how the thread has turned, this has become less a "is the Titan 7-B" but more calling in question the scaling from normal Darkners.
This thread pretty much lost the purpose of OP at this point, and 2 staff already rejected the CRT.
Ehh, you could say the same thing about Goombas, ULTRAKILL Filths or basically any common enemy in any game.
And one thing VSBW loves is dumping those poor little goobers dozens of tiers below the main characters.
I was about to make a response to all of that shit, but given how the thread has turned, this has become less a "is the Titan 7-B" but more calling in question the scaling from normal Darkners.
This thread pretty much lost the purpose of OP at this point, and 2 staff already rejected the CRT.
No it did not because my convo about the normal darkners affects the titan scaling, thanks for tracking a message I sent literally not even 6 or 7 message ago ig:
Requirement 4: Prove that the power of the character's stabilization consistently scales to their regular statistics, similar to our standards for creation feats.
This is the one people are confusing it as me claiming "it's an outlier" and that's it. I'm saying that the Titan does not fit this requirement since him being that strong is indeed not consistent/supported at all, that this level of power scales to his regular statistics or anyone even. Strym's response was:
Prove me it's not consistent lmao. A character with a single 7-B feat will definitely have it as valid by having it as superiority over a Low 7-C character, who on its own is that tier by one-shotting 8-A ones.
You're acting like these 3 are all on the same tier in-universe, but it's really not, at all.
Which is what I disproved. Not only does the extra/optional fights, that everyone hyper-focused on for some reason as if it was the only thing I said, show that they can still damage the Fun Gang even after Chapter 4, but regular darkners during both chapter 4-5 damage and are comparable to the fun-gang consistently, it is in-fact more consistent than trying to say they are have a ~3119x to ~12275x GAP between chapters, as that is never, EVER supported. Them getting stronger through LV means nothing since if you look at the fun gang stats:
Their Defense never changes, therefore their base durability never changes (ofc it goes higher with armor but thats irrelevant).
Ralsei even at Chapter 5 has lower base attack than Susie at Chapter 3, but would ya look at that:
So please inform me, how is it ever consistent that Titan and the Fun-Gang got 3300x - 12000x stronger, but if we go by the ONLY SHOWING OF THEM GETTING STRONGER (LV), Ralsei at Chapter 4-5 is weaker than Susie at Chapter 3. Where's the consistency?
No it did not because my convo about the normal darkners affects the titan scaling, thanks for tracking a message I sent literally not even 6 or 7 message ago ig:
Your whole thing is a wall of text filled of "they cannot be x20000 stronger" because I say so. Calculations are again, not canon, the values are not literally that in-universe, we do not say that SSJGod Goku is Uncountable Infinite times stronger than Cell only because the values are that.
Plus we do not really treat the playable stats as canon in Deltarune, as otherwise we make some funny shit like Jevil/Spamton downscaling from whatever boss just because we can use them as items while fighting them (unless they downscale from the Titan ig).
Your whole thing is a wall of text filled of "they cannot be x20000 stronger" because I say so. Calculations are again, not canon, the values are not literally that in-universe, we do not say that SSJGod Goku is Uncountable Infinite times stronger than Cell only because the values are that.
No it's because they are literally comparable??? You can not be comparable to someone 3000x stronger than you. This has nothing to do with calculations.
Plus we do not really treat the playable stats as canon in Deltarune, as otherwise we make some funny shit like Jevil/Spamton downscaling from whatever boss just because we can use them as items while fighting them (unless they downscale from the Titan ig).
Jackenstein is a very laidback, comedic fight with no real stakes the entire time and nothing suggests the Fun Gang had any trouble dealing with him.
He has about as much of an argument for scaling as those Pokemon Gym Trainers do to the player (You're familiar with Pokemon, right?) which, by that logic, would make them comparable to Groudon just because you can fight them after beating it.
The latter point is honestly even less convincing cause what's it supposed to prove? They didn't do anything combat related, they caught Jackenstein and left.
Literally it just tells us that they were peacefully dealt with by the Fun Gang, nothing about how difficult their fights were to them.
CH5 Top of the Castle is also full of actually story-relevant examples, why did you pick these lol
I wouldn't argue it, but what's stopping someone from pulling this.
Like ya gotta prove the MENU stats aren't just the in-game stats but actually canon.
Not saying it's impossible, or even hard, but you do see how trying to do so on the 3rd page of a CRT that got barely anything to do with that is a bad idea, right?
No it's because they are literally comparable??? You can not be comparable to someone 3000x stronger than you. This has nothing to do with calculations.
It does, because it's applying the gap given from the wiki-induced AP values as canonical to the actual gap in-universe. Plus who said that it's comparable?
Like ya gotta prove the MENU stats aren't just the in-game stats but actually canon.
Not saying it's impossible, or even hard, but you do see how trying to do so on the 3rd page of a CRT that got barely anything to do with that is a bad idea, right?
Jackenstein is a very laidback, comedic fight with no real stakes the entire time and nothing suggests the Fun Gang had any trouble dealing with him.
He has about as much of an argument for scaling as those Pokemon Gym Trainers do to the player (You're familiar with Pokemon, right?) which, by that logic, would make them comparable to Groudon just because you can fight them after beating it.
I am not that familiar with Pokemon scaling, specially on the wiki, but if it was stated or in the story that those "pokemon gym trainers" fight Groudon or a player team's that beats Groudon then I'd say they should scale yea. (as in not an optional fight that you fight at like "part 1" of the story and can come back even at "part 8")
I wouldn't argue it, but what's stopping someone from pulling this.
Like ya gotta prove the MENU stats aren't just the in-game stats but actually canon.
Not saying it's impossible, or even hard, but you do see how trying to do so on the 3rd page of a CRT that got barely anything to do with that is a bad idea, right?
First off, Why would the check stats be any different than the ones you can find in the menu of the game by pressing C, yes those would be a bit different than the table I showed because of weapons/armor but I can guarantee Susie at chapter 3 is still above ralsei in chapter 4-5. And second off the stats are gonna be argued as non canon then I will ask for the FOURTH TIME, what is the evidence that the fun gang gets stronger?
It does, because it's applying the gap given from the wiki-induced AP values as canonical to the actual gap in-universe. Plus who said that it's comparable?
The gap is applied if the characters arent comparable to each other, which they are, either scale everyone to that AP value or do not scale anyone and stop head-cannoning a random buff for the Fun Gang.
Why would the check stats be any different than the ones you can find in the menu of the game by pressing C, yes those would be a bit different than the table I showed because of weapons/armor but I can guarantee Susie at chapter 3 is still above ralsei in chapter 4-5
That is not evidence because as we currently straight up accept, all chapter 1-3 fights still have darkners comparable to each other because, it is shown, and this continues through chapter 4-5 but we start ignoring them because we want "buffs!!", they can be stronger and still be comparable to each other there is nothing contradicting or showing the idea that they vastly gap their prior selves and is purely head-canon for buffs.
---
Anyways, my entire message was not answered, the fact that the titan does not match requirement 2 and 4 is still not countered and is being ignored.
Though one weird thing that comes up if we take them as fact is just how much damage the Titan takes. Like the Fun Gang didn't grow THAT much in power and yet CH1 Kris only deals around 60 damage to the 0 DEF Dummy, while CH4 Kris can do up to 1200 damage to the also 0 DEF Titan.
Tbf UT also does have a similar-ish issue with 0 DEF but it's worth pointing out.
Your whole thing is a wall of text filled of "they cannot be x20000 stronger" because I say so. Calculations are again, not canon, the values are not literally that in-universe
Isn’t this literally a textbook whataboutism? How does this at all solve the problem of Kris and the Gang magically getting stronger in less than a day?
In seriousness though, reading through the arguments there's really only a few ways both sides arguments kinda go down, and in any solution to this thread ends with The Titan still scaling to Dark Worlds. Best case scenario i can see for OP's side is downgrading everyone else besides the titan even if that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and worst case everyone becomes city level. (funny, but really stupid)
Isn’t this literally a textbook whataboutism? How does this at all solve the problem of Kris and the Gang magically getting stronger in less than a day?
Hell, if this thread passed you were planning to put them, "massively upscaling from [The big mecha the Fun Gang had no hope of even scratching a day ago]"
Hell, if this thread passed you were planning to put them, "massively upscaling from [The big mecha the Fun Gang had no hope of even scratching a day ago]"
The point is that the Titans scaling to City level is overall dubious, especially when it comes their main scaling which is sustaining a dark fountain. If it isn’t at all consistent with what can be seen, especially in regards to our rules, then it goes from “this is just fiction” to blatant inconsistency and bias.
Plus, this doesn’t necessarily matter when the characters in question aren’t jumping literal infinites in power but instead are on a lower spectrum of power levels and don’t casually have hundred of thousands of multipliers being gained out of LITERAL NOWHERE instead of just training, which they don’t do like Frieza does.
The point is that the Titans scaling to City level is overall dubious, especially when it comes their main scaling which is sustaining a dark fountain. If it isn’t at all consistent with what can be seen, especially in regards to our rules, then it goes from “this is just fiction” to blatant inconsistency and bias.
I mean, did you prove it's inconsistent?
Your OP doesn't list any of the moments where the Fun Gang struggle with the far less than 7-B regular Darkners, it's 95% about how the Titans are allegedly different from Dark Fountains, which people REALLY ain't on board with.
Btw, with UT we chain-scale everyone to the same tier. Deltarune is just being exempt from this out of proposal inflation of only the high tiers to try to make it look more reasonable with 0 justification.
Keep in mind UT actually has justification that someone like Frisk varies in power and a lot yet even there it was acknowledge that trying to scale monsters insanely above the others makes no sense.
Genuinely makes more sense than whatever the hell the wiki does now. I don't care if it sounds stupid, everyone wants to keep the inflated City level titan and completely ignore how it doesn't fulfill two requirements for stabilization feats rules. Sure, I can't convince anyone to agree, but then scale everyone and don't double standard your way out of making it sound better. If we are gonna keep that tier, even if I completely disagree, give it to everyone properly.
Though one weird thing that comes up if we take them as fact is just how much damage the Titan takes. Like the Fun Gang didn't grow THAT much in power and yet CH1 Kris only deals around 60 damage to the 0 DEF Dummy, while CH4 Kris can do up to 1200 damage to the also 0 DEF Titan.
Tbf UT also does have a similar-ish issue with 0 DEF but it's worth pointing out.
Genuinely makes more sense than whatever the hell the wiki does now. I don't care if it sounds stupid, everyone wants to keep the inflated City level titan and completely ignore how it doesn't fulfill two requirements for stabilization feats rules. Sure, then scale everyone and don't double standard your way out of making it sound better.
Not what I said. I disagree with the city tier as a whole, I said it makes more sense than nitpicking whichever characters we wanna scale to 7-B and act like the Fun Gang got massively stronger from chapter 3 to 4 despite stats, darkners still being comparable, etc, all showing otherwise.
Not what I said. I disagree with the city tier as a whole, I said it makes more sense than nitpicking whichever characters we wanna scale to 7-B and act like the Fun Gang got massively stronger from chapter 3 to 4 despite stats, darkners still being comparable, etc, all showing otherwise.
Considering the titan is treated like an end all scenario for everyone, where a level 5 fun gang is genuinely surprised they even stopped the titan i'm going to go out on a limb here and say the bunch of darkners who struggled against a level 1 fun gang probably don't scale to the titan.
Considering the titan is treated like an end of the entire world apocalypse scenario, where a level 5 fun gang is genuinely surprised they even stopped the titan i'm going to go out on a limb here and say the bunch of darkners who struggled against a level 1 fun gang probably don't scale to the titan.
Level 2 Susie has better stats than Level 5 Ralsei so I'm "going to go out on a limb here" and say that level 5 ralsei is not meant to be 3,300x to 12,000x stronger than Susie is at level 2 (and should actually be weaker).
Also regular darkners fight you in chapter 4 and 5, please don't just ignore the story out of wanting to keep nitpicking tiers.
They still do that 60 something damage to other Darkners with 0 DEF. And yeah, I get that Kris holds back a lot (See them dealing like more than twice Susie's dmg when they're not) but they must've also been holding back against the Titan too, otherwise Susie outdamaging them wouldn’t make sense, ya know?
Level 2 Susie has better stats than Level 5 Ralsei so I'm "going to go out on a limb here" and say that level 5 ralsei is not 3,300x to 12,000x stronger than Susie is at level 2 (and should actually be weaker).
Susie was present during the fight against the titan, and was the one who made the comment about being surprised they defeated it. I never even mentioned Ralsei.
Susie was present during the fight against the titan, who was the one who made the comment about being surprised they defeated it. I never even mentioned ralsei.
And? Do you genuinely not see the point? It just further proves that the gap between Level 1-2 and Level 5 isn't as insane as you're making it out to be if someone weaker than Level 2 Susie could still keep up and fight the same boss alongside Level 5 Susie, damaging and taking attacks from it lol
I mean, did you prove it's inconsistent?
Your OP doesn't list any of the moments where the Fun Gang struggle with the far less than 7-B regular Darkners, it's 95% about how the Titans are allegedly different from Dark Fountains, which people REALLY ain't on board with.
Fair. However, I think pointing out how the Titan's current rating does indeed violate the standards is actually worth accepting rather disagreeing with the whole thing, which is what we're seemingly more focused on and what the OP does indeed include.
And? Do you genuinely not see the point? It just further proves that the gap between Level 1-2 and Level 5 isn't as insane as you're making it out to be if someone weaker than Level 2 Susie could still keep up and fight the same boss alongside Level 5 Susie, damaging and taking attacks from it lol
If stats shows Ralsei stronger than Susie, but in the actual game Ralsei is consistently depicted weaker than the rest of the group for a large portion of the chapters to the point that The Roaring Knight can literally reduce Ralsei down to nothing but fluff, (unlike susie) then perhaps the stats just aren't reliable to your claim as they create a contradiction toward the actual story.
Side note, you're being condescending and rude for no reason. It's Deltarune battleboarding, you'll survive this I promise. Calm it down several notches.
If stats shows Ralsei stronger than Susie, but in the actual game Ralsei is consistently depicted weaker than the rest of the group to the point that The Roaring Knight can literally reduce Ralsei down to nothing but fluff, then perhaps the stats just aren't reliable to your claim as they create a contradiction toward the actual story.
1. The stats show Ralsei is weaker than Susie at Level 2, idk how you read it as it saying Ralsei is stronger...?
2. Despite them being weaker they are still able to fight enemies comparable to all three of them, Ralsei is the weakest out of them yes, but that doesnt mean he isnt comparable, he very clearly is.
3. Then what is your claim? To downgrade Ralsei to 8-A and hes actually 3300x - 12000x weaker than Susie and Kris? How does he harm and take attacks from the 7-B Titan then. You seem to agree he is potrayed as weaker than Level 2 Susie (which you'd be correct on), all chapter 2 characters would chainscale and so would chapter 1, therefore you're going back to 7-B Lancer if you agree that Level 5 Ralsei > Level 2 Susie.
And my point still stands, if stats aren't really mentioned much as a canon force in the series like it is in undertale i see no point in arguing with them to pin point their tier on this site. Whether it be Ralsei being at level 5 and weaker than level 2 susie, or the opposite. Just don't use them. It's really that easy. The game even calls the stats useless information, treat it that way.
2. Despite them being weaker they are still able to fight enemies comparable to all three of them, Ralsei is the weakest out of them yes, but that doesnt mean he isnt comparable, he very clearly is.
3. Then what is your claim? To downgrade Ralsei to 8-A and hes actually 3300x - 12000x weaker than Susie and Kris? How does he harm and take attacks from the 7-B Titan then. You seem to agree he is potrayed as weaker than Level 2 Susie (which you'd be correct on), all chapter 2 characters would chainscale and so would chapter 1, therefore you're going back to 7-B Lancer if you agree that Level 5 Ralsei > Level 2 Susie.
My claim is that you might be huffing lancer glue. Nothing more, nothing less. I believe people should stop using the stats for the scaling considering how they're likely not super accurate on the real power of these characters. The game calls it useless info, we should treat it as useless info.
