Oh yeah we’re doing this; Mario Mario vs Sonic the Hedgehog [1-7-0]

[MicDaniel]

Baby Mario downscales from his adult self, so it's not as impressive as it sounds.

I mean that's the point of the game. It's also just outright stated that the Baby Mario we play as are as weak as you expect a baby to be. So it's not like a Pit Version of Baby Mario or a Baby Mario Mario we normally see in other sports title.

The DT range of Power Stars is not enough here. They allow Mario to travel from between pocket dimensions in Peach's castle. Chaos Control's BFR can straight up banish Mario to distant timelines.

Well that's under the assumption Sonic can do that to begin with. Sonic can teleport stuff away but between dimensions and Timelines, he himself has never done that and Blaze could only do that feat with two emeralds. Sonic as far as I have read only has the 1 yellow emerald. Even then, dimensional Travel is still dimensional travel.

I can't even see telekinesis on his profile and don't recall Mario ever using it.

Telekinesis is a Listed ability the Power Star has on its profile page. Mario should have access to it.

Fight has been updated accordingly.

When you say Mario has access to all of his item, does this include stuff like the Battle Cards and Battle Badges? If yes, Mario can just force Sonic to drop his items and deny him the ability to take action.

Does Mario get Bonds- oh wait Luigi is absent

This does bring up an interesting point. Like what if Mario uses the copy flower, double cherry or time travels and teams up with himself? Would he gain access to the bond he shares with a different version of himself? It is stated that bonds can even come from just be acquainted with someone.

 

[ARandomDude127]

When you say Mario has access to all of his item, does this include stuff like the Battle Cards and Battle Badges? If yes, Mario can just force Sonic to drop his items and deny him the ability to take action.

ANYTHING that isn’t FLUDD or Cappy is fair game for Mario.

This does bring up an interesting point. Like what if Mario uses the copy flower, double cherry or time travels and teams up with himself? Would he gain access to the bond he shares with a different version of himself? It is stated that bonds can even come from just be acquainted with someone.

Edit:
I apologize if this comes off as me spamming.

Beats me pal, couldn’t tell you.

 

[Omegabronic]

Well that's under the assumption Sonic can do that to begin with. Sonic can teleport stuff away but between dimensions and Timelines, he himself has never done that and Blaze could only do that feat with two emeralds. Sonic as far as I have read only has the 1 yellow emerald. Even then, dimensional Travel is still dimensional travel.

She did it with Chaos Control, a technique Sonic has far more mastery than her over, so yes he can

Telekinesis is a Listed ability the Power Star has on its profile page. Mario should have access to it.

Sonic can teleport away out of it

When you say Mario has access to all of his item, does this include stuff like the Battle Cards and Battle Badges? If yes, Mario can just force Sonic to drop his items and deny him the ability to take action.

Sonic can steal the items out of Mario's Hammerspace to steal those

Also which hax does this fall under? Don't see it in the profile

 

[MicDaniel]

She did it with Chaos Control, a technique Sonic has far more mastery than her over, so yes he can

She did it with 2 emeralds, Sonic only has the one.

Sonic can teleport away out of it

If Mario can deny his ability to take action, Sonic cannot.

Sonic can steal the items out of Mario's Hammerspace to steal those

Mario can Just Block attempts of theft considering there are enemies in SMRPG whose basic attacks does that. Then there's Boo Block from the Kart series if Mario's allowed that.

Also which hax does this fall under? Don't see it in the profile

Battle cards and Battle Badges.
You can find the entire list of abilities on the MnL Wikia because this Wikia does not cover all them.

 

[Omegabronic]

She did it with 2 emeralds, Sonic only has the one.

She asked Silver to do the same when he had none, the number doesn't matter much here

If Mario can deny his ability to take action, Sonic cannot.

Which hax is that? I don't see it in the profile, so i cannot deduce if Sonic can resist it or not... also Chaos Control is though based, so unless it stops Sonic from thinking that will still work at the very least

Mario can Just Block attempts of theft considering there are enemies in SMRPG whose basic attacks does that.

It isn't theft, Sonic is reaching into Mario's Hammerspace, Mario has no resistance to Hammerspace Manipulation in the profile at least

Then there's Boo Block from the Kart series if Mario's allowed that.

What does that do? The profile is kind of big, can you link that?

Battle cards and Battle Badges.
You can find the entire list of abilities on the MnL Wikia because this Wikia does not cover all them.

We only go by what's accepted in the profile tho... if Mario is outdated in that regard, this thread can be put on hold till he is updated

 

[ARandomDude127]

We only go by what's accepted in the profile tho... if Mario is outdated in that regard, this thread can be put on hold till he is updated

With the exception of Madness Combat ofc

 

[MicDaniel]

She asked Silver to do the same when he had none, the number doesn't matter much here

It does because two chaos emeralds were present at the time.

Which hax is that? I don't see it in the profile, so i cannot deduce if Sonic can resist it or not... also Chaos Control is though based, so unless it stops Sonic from thinking that will still work at the very least

It's action Denial, thinking is an action. It's another Battle Card Ability.

It isn't theft, Sonic is reaching into Mario's Hammerspace, Mario has no resistance to Hammerspace Manipulation in the profile at least

Considering Mario holds all of his items in his hammer space, this means Mario can resist Hammer Space Manipulation. Not to mention Sonic has to reach into a person's hammer space physically in order to steal items. There isn't anything stopping Mario from just grabbing his wrist.

What does that do? The profile is kind of big, can you link that?

Yeah.

https://mariokart.fandom.com/wiki/Boo

We only go by what's accepted in the profile tho... if Mario is outdated in that regard, this thread can be put on hold till he is updated

Well he should have access to those cards as well considering Battlecards are an accepted item on his page. If not, then just blocking attempts of theft or Using a Superstar which protects items theft like the Boo item from Mario Kart should be enough to counter Sonic's hammer space theft since Boo item does the same thing.

 

[AguilaR202]

Give Mario more power up’s, he needs em

 

[MicDaniel]

We only go by what's accepted in the profile tho... if Mario is outdated in that regard, this thread can be put on hold till he is updated

Yeah, Like Mario's profile is just missing a Bunch of stuff in general. A lot of stuff the profile did used to have like the Battle Badges from Dream Team is missing.

Edit:
My mistake, they are labeled Badges but he's still just missing the Badges from Dream Team in general despite having them in previous incarnations of his profile.

 

[Causalist]

I mean that's the point of the game. It's also just outright stated that the Baby Mario we play as are as weak as you expect a baby to be. So it's not like a Pit Version of Baby Mario or a Baby Mario Mario we normally see in other sports title.

If that's the case, then how the hell is be even playable, let alone capable of defeating anyone else in the first place? This isn't mentionned in his AD for his profile, and maybe there's a good reason for it because I doubt Mario's first opponents in the game are literal baby level.

Telekinesis is a Listed ability the Power Star has on its profile page. Mario should have access to it.

The fact that it's never used by a power star user, let alone in the middle of combat is sketchy to say the least. Even the power star itself only used it once, and never on a living thing.

It does because two chaos emeralds were present at the time.

At least two emeralds being required is unfounded. We already know from Sonic Rivals that one emerald is enough to travel between universes.

It's action Denial, thinking is an action. It's another Battle Card Ability.

Thinking is not an action by most definitions. Your actions define you, not your thoughts. It's why arresting people for thought crime is proposterous. If you can show footage of Mario using this card of enemies and making them temporarily brain dead in the process, I'll change my stance though.

Considering Mario holds all of his items in his hammer space, this means Mario can resist Hammer Space Manipulation.

No, it doesn't. I don't even understand how you came to that conclusion. Did I misunderstand something?

Not to mention Sonic has to reach into a person's hammer space physically in order to steal items. There isn't anything stopping Mario from just grabbing his wrist.

If both characters use their available arsenal to its fullest potential, which you would be your ideal position for arguing a Mario victory, then Sonic will end up being way faster than Mario here (I'll elaborate why in my upcoming summary). He could easily snatch Mario's shit before he gets the time to even turn around, especially if he stops or slows down time with the yellow emerald. Sonic can even remove anything from Mario's hand by sealing it away from a distance with the Magic Hand.

Yeah.

https://mariokart.fandom.com/wiki/Boo

Well he should have access to those cards as well considering Battlecards are an accepted item on his page. If not, then just blocking attempts of theft or Using a Superstar which protects items theft like the Boo item from Mario Kart should be enough to counter Sonic's hammer space theft since Boo item does the same thing.

Agreed. Hammerspace theft isn't a full proof strat for Sonic. He's better off snatching Mario's items after he grabs them from his own hammerspace for use. The aforementionned Magic Hand makes this nearly effortless. Mario himself resists sealing, but his items don't.

Give Mario more power up’s, he needs em

Idk if that's sarcasm, but a better look at Mario's profile actually reveals what his standard and optional equipment is. We ended giving him ALL of his optional equipment (Cappy being the only notable exception) while barely giving Sonic his standard equipment (Only two rings and one emerald? At least he has item boxes and some Speed Sim stuff). At this point we might as well give them both all of their optional stuff. Forcejewels would counter some of the more busted Battlecards while Cappy would grant Mario a new win con that's actually in-character. I'm not OP, but that would be my suggestion. The debate is already interesting as it is and I do think Sonic wins either way. Not confident enough to cast a vote yet though.

 

[Hypertornado099]

I'm voting Sonic because I'm not sure if Mario even utilises his speed in fights to blitz the enemy and Sonic is stronger

 

[MicDaniel]

I had a response made but looking over Mario's profile. It's just sorta screwed up and making it hard to reference Stuff he should have. Like the Badges from Dream Team are missing when that's something he had in previous incarnation of his profile. Only some of the Battle Cards From Paper Jam are present. He should have Telekinesis from the Power Stars. If he has Black Hole Creation from the Power Star Creating a Black Hole then he should be granted Telekinesis. It appears I'm breaking the thread and Wikia rules so I'll conceded from this argument.

I accept I am in the wrong and acknowledge I cannot debate my points further. This has given me much to consider.

 

[Causalist]

I had a response made but looking over Mario's profile. It's just sorta screwed up and making it hard to reference Stuff he should have. Like the Badges from Dream Team are missing when that's something he had in previous incarnation of his profile. Only some of the Battle Cards From Paper Jam are present. He should have Telekinesis from the Power Stars. If he has Black Hole Creation from the Power Star Creating a Black Hole then he should be granted Telekinesis. It appears I'm breaking the thread and Wikia rules so I'll conceded from this argument.

I accept I am in the wrong and acknowledge I cannot debate my points further. This has given me much to consider.

Tbf, Sonic's profiles, particulalrly for his Modern iteration, are hella outdated too. We couldn't add anything to them since the Imgur crisis.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Sonic FRA

 

[Hypertornado099]

I had a response made but looking over Mario's profile. It's just sorta screwed up and making it hard to reference Stuff he should have. Like the Badges from Dream Team are missing when that's something he had in previous incarnation of his profile. Only some of the Battle Cards From Paper Jam are present. He should have Telekinesis from the Power Stars. If he has Black Hole Creation from the Power Star Creating a Black Hole then he should be granted Telekinesis. It appears I'm breaking the thread and Wikia rules so I'll conceded from this argument.

I accept I am in the wrong and acknowledge I cannot debate my points further. This has given me much to consider.

This wouldn't have happened if you argued Mario would do what Mario does in fights, and that's mostly simple things like "stomp on enemy" and "kicks shells at you"

 

[LaserPrecision]

This wouldn't have happened if you argued Mario would do what Mario does in fights, and that's mostly simple things like "stomp on enemy" and "kicks shells at you"

why are you going after bro

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Sonic for lasers reasons

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Sonic fra

 

[Galactidot]

I don't think my question was ever answered OP

 

[ARandomDude127]

I don't think my question was ever answered OP

My bad pal, my internet lately has been ANNIHILATING me, I’m gonna try and answer them while counting the votes

 

[Omegabronic]

Sonic FRA

 

[Causalist]

Did anyone here even account for Mario's revives? The current reasoning for Sonic's votes here doesn't seem to.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Did anyone here even account for Mario's revives?

How many revives does he have?

The current reasoning for Sonic's votes here doesn't seem to.

I guess maybe BFR via Chaos Control?

 

[Galactidot]

Wait a minute...

• Mario has access to all of his items outside of F.L.U.D.D. & Cappy.

access to all of his items

Hold on guys, stop the votes. Y'all are going way too fast, this debate is just getting started...

this

this piece of shit.

My question... was already answered.

It collects Bonds, and the power they provide.

In essence, it's a slightly weaker Pure Heart at base, capable of so much more after it attains the proper Bonds. This would include the Bond with Luigi, which using the Bonding Can, could remotely power up Mario as high as 2-B.

We also need to remember the Battle Plugs and Cards, I'm surprised nobody has really mentioned those much. They can do some crazy shit.

Through using the Bonding Can, Mario can reach up to a WHOPPING 2-B, which would give him an AP advantage. These Bonds are notably strong enough to revive Mario (and Luigi) from the dead and allow him and Luigi to survive against and damage an opponent he should not have had a shot against normally.

Sonic can't just snag this Bonding Can either, it'd be useless to him without the Bonds of his own friends.

Unironically, I vote for Mario thanks to the Bonding Can. He can now revive easier, has an AP advantage, and is able to use a plethora of hax and resistances of his own now.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Sonic can't just snag this Bonding Can either, it'd be useless to him without the Bonds of his own friends.

Wouldn't snatching it still get rid of all the boosts Mario has with it? It's not like sonic really needs it's amps to win so I imagine we would just go back to base Mario vs sonic

Unironically, I vote for Mario thanks to the Bonding Can. He can now revive easier, has an AP advantage, and is able to use a plethora of hax and resistances of his own now.

Now this is interesting, what hax and resistances are we looking at?

 

[Causalist]

How many revives does he have?

As long as he's wearing the bottomless glove, a practically infinite amount.

I guess maybe BFR via Chaos Control?

That's Sonic's only win con. I do think it's enough considering Mario's only win con is transmutation. Thanks to Infinite Magnet, rebirths, and item boxes, Sonic has a ring supply the will only exponentially increase with every hit he takes from Mario. This means no amount of power will ever exhaust his 6D damage transferal. Even a 2-B Mario wouldn't change that.

Mario and Sonic are both essentially immortal here, making raw power irrelevant. The question is whether Mario can transmute Sonic before the latter seals him away with Chaos Control, and I think the answer is no, but I also think the Sonic voters are jumping the gun.

 

[IDK3465]

Now this is interesting, what hax and resistances are we looking at?

We don't have a P&A page for Bonds (even though we absolutely should atp), but from what I can remember, the basic abilities are:
Empowerment, Energy Manipulation/Projection, Stat Amp, Accelerated Development, Extrasensory Perception/Clairvoyance/Cosmic Awareness, Supernatural Willpower, Fate Manipulation, Magic, Light Manipulation, Reality Warping, Creation, Negation of Gohlm/Void abilities (which includes all the bs these guys do), Healing, Resurrection, Restoration, Dimensional Travel, and that's it (I think)

 

[Causalist]

We don't have a P&A page for Bonds (even though we absolutely should atp), but from what I can remember, the basic abilities are:
Empowerment, Energy Manipulation/Projection, Stat Amp, Accelerated Development, Extrasensory Perception/Clairvoyance/Cosmic Awareness, Supernatural Willpower, Fate Manipulation, Magic, Light Manipulation, Reality Warping, Creation, Negation of Gohlm/Void abilities (which includes all the bs these guys do), Healing, Restoration, Dimensional Travel, and that's it (I think)

Wtf? Ok. It sounds like Sonic should have his optional equipment too. It's only fair. You can even add back Cappy, F.L.U.D.D, and the other Chaos Emeralds (restricting Super Sonic, ofc). If Mario is gonna have all of this shit we might as well go all the way for both of them.

 

[ARandomDude127]

Wtf? Ok. It sounds like Sonic should have his optional equipment too. It's only fair. You can even add back Cappy, F.L.U.D.D, and the other Chaos Emeralds (restricting Super Sonic, ofc). If Mario is gonna have all of this shit we might as well go all the way for both of them.

Alright fellas I’m back, and DAMN. I didn’t think Mario would be this busted.

I’ll give both all of their equipment and restrict anything higher than 4-B from Sonic and Mario, I’ll probably also not count all of the votes anyways considering I’m drastically changing the MU.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Wait a minute...



access to all of his items

Hold on guys, stop the votes. Y'all are going way too fast, this debate is just getting started...

this

this piece of shit.

My question... was already answered.

It collects Bonds, and the power they provide.

In essence, it's a slightly weaker Pure Heart at base, capable of so much more after it attains the proper Bonds. This would include the Bond with Luigi, which using the Bonding Can, could remotely power up Mario as high as 2-B.

We also need to remember the Battle Plugs and Cards, I'm surprised nobody has really mentioned those much. They can do some crazy shit.

Through using the Bonding Can, Mario can reach up to a WHOPPING 2-B, which would give him an AP advantage. These Bonds are notably strong enough to revive Mario (and Luigi) from the dead and allow him and Luigi to survive against and damage an opponent he should not have had a shot against normally.

Sonic can't just snag this Bonding Can either, it'd be useless to him without the Bonds of his own friends.

Unironically, I vote for Mario thanks to the Bonding Can. He can now revive easier, has an AP advantage, and is able to use a plethora of hax and resistances of his own now.

Prove he would do this in character rn

 

[Hypertornado099]

Okay I just read the scans. The Bonding Can is used by someone else to revive Mario and Luigi. The profile doesn't say Mario has the Bonding Can as part of his kit, and he wasn't the one using it in that scan anyways. The 2-B powerup isn't something that can always happen

Note: Mario can only go up to 2-B when he is considerably bonded by family and friends, particularly Luigi and cannot use the key in one on one fights. Furthermore, it should not be assumed to go all out an majority of fights through the series, only the Mario and Luigi series post Dream Team has demonstrated Mario Bros using the Power of Bonds to such level.

Given that this is supposed to be Mario with all powerups across all games, I'm not sure you can prove Mario would do this in this fight. I mean he doesn't even have Luigi beside him so I'd imagine its more likely that Mario would use other powerups like the Penguin one or the Super Star

 

[IDK3465]

Okay I just read the scans. The Bonding Can is used by someone else to revive Mario and Luigi. The profile doesn't say Mario has the Bonding Can as part of his kit, and he wasn't the one using it in that scan anyways. The 2-B powerup isn't something that can always happen


Given that this is supposed to be Mario with all powerups across all games, I'm not sure you can prove Mario would do this in this fight. I mean he doesn't even have Luigi beside him so I'd imagine its more likely that Mario would use other powerups like the Penguin one or the Super Star

I haven't actually played Brothership, so I can't exactly refute this, but I'm sure Galactidot knows more than I, so I'd wait for them to come back if I were you

 

[Hypertornado099]

I haven't actually played Brothership, so I can't exactly refute this, but I'm sure Galactidot knows more than I, so I'd wait for them to come back if I were you

I haven't played it either but its like nearly impossible to predict what Mario would do in character if he has everything in his arsenal

 

[Mickey1940]

speed unequalized?

so mario is several quadrillions of times faster?

how is this fair? what can Sonic possibly do in this situation?

 

[Hypertornado099]

speed unequalized?

so mario is several quadrillions of times faster?

how is this fair? what can Sonic possibly do in this situation?

Catch him off guard maybe? Mario is not always fast

 

[Mickey1940]

Catch him off guard maybe? Mario is not always fast

you can't catch someone who speed gaps you this much off guard. Mario has enough time to live several millions of lifetimes before Sonic blinks, Anything Sonic tries to do can just be dodged or reacted to, anything Sonic tries to do that instakills can just be argued in reverse cuz Mario has instakills too

 

[King_Clab]

Mario and Sonic are both essentially immortal here, making raw power irrelevant. The question is whether Mario can transmute Sonic before the latter seals him away with Chaos Control, and I think the answer is no, but I also think the Sonic voters are jumping the gun.

Doesn’t Mario have the gold flower for transmutation? How good is Sonic’s ice resistance?

 

[JJSliderman]

Late but Sonic’s transmutation resistance being possibly is just because you can only facilitate the conditions where Sonic can be transmuted in multiplayer, it’s just a clear cut resistance. So I think it should be applicable here.

 

[ARandomDude127]

speed unequalized?

so mario is several quadrillions of times faster?

how is this fair? what can Sonic possibly do in this situation?

Speed doesn’t matter because Sonic’s AD will auto-kick in and equalize the two anyways.

 

[Mickey1940]

Speed doesn’t matter because Sonic’s AD will auto-kick in and equalize the two anyways.

that's bs and you know it

Sonic can't adapt to a several quintillion times speed difference before Mario uses any of his hax to kill Sonic