Oh yeah we’re doing this; Mario Mario vs Sonic the Hedgehog [1-7-0]

[AyOgUyS]

Does it take time for Sonic's speed to equalize with those faster than him? Cause even with my limited knowledge on the series, I can remember several times where Sonic was being outsped by another character

Infinite blatantly blitzed and beat up Sonic in Forces. If Sonic's AD is really so absurdly powerful it can kick in when he's being overwhelmed at any time, why didn't it kick in then? It feels to me like the moments where he does showcase that absurd level of AD are the minority rather than the norm.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Still following but I'm leaning towards sonic atm

 

[Omegabronic]

I get that in a few situations, even like Classic Sonic can jump from what, FTL to Infinite? But that level of growth is rarely ever demonstrated again. If speed was unequal, would Sonic's AD really be that consistent for him to instantly grow by what, millions of times? If it's really so powerful he can grow that much faster in the midst of a hard battle, why doesn't that always happen?

It only happens when he is pressed and "has something to protect", it doesn't passively happens all the time, against like, Infinite for example, the stat gap was simply too big, although we can't really rate it like that cuz it would be calc stacking

 

[AyOgUyS]

That's... his main move and attack method, don't forget, the Homing Attack IS a Spin Dash too... also Sonic can just... Chaos Control Time Manip to invalidate all of these options

Does Sonic really use Chaos Control that much in character.

Also Sonic has SEVERAL speed amplification methods on top of the Spin Dash:

• With Hyper Mode
• With Power Sneakers
• With Speed Up
• With Power Cores(Each being a 2x Boost[Link currently broken])

The last one in particular will be troublesome for Mario, as Sonic can hold a maximum of 3 at a time, making him 8x faster overall

Fair enough

 

[Omegabronic]

Also even if Mario kills Sonic here, he can revive himself, so it would depend a lot on how Mario does it

 

[AyOgUyS]

It only happens when he is pressed and "has something to protect"

What even counts as a thing to protect? Can't be like his own life because he's straight up died before and has gotten beat up or overwhelmed by people stronger than him before.

 

[Omegabronic]

Does Sonic really use Chaos Control that much in character.

During his boss fight with Shadow in Adv2 he spams it... a lot

Also if Mario becomes too much of a problem... he obviously will use it

 

[IDK3465]

Why do Sonic characters have so much random overpowered bullshit bro

 

[ARandomDude127]

Also even if Mario kills Sonic here, he can revive himself, so it would depend a lot on how Mario does it

I don’t think Mario really WOULD (tbf I don’t know too much about Mario) but vice versa can be easily said, since Mario has like 3 ways to revive himself going off the profile.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Also if Mario becomes too much of a problem... he obviously will use it

Fair enough

 

[Omegabronic]

What even counts as a thing to protect? Can't be like his own life because he's straight up died before

Only by Mephiles one time as a sneak attack that he didn't even know was coming

and has gotten beat up or overwhelmed by people stronger than him before.

The only time this has happened as far as i remember were like, Infinite... which stat gap was huge + it was a 5 v 1, and Neo Metal Sonic... which had copied his powers beforehand

 

[ARandomDude127]

Why do Sonic characters have so much random overpowered bullshit bro

Say that again…

 

[LaserPrecision]

I get that in a few situations, even like Classic Sonic can jump from what, FTL to Infinite? But that level of growth is rarely ever demonstrated again. If speed was unequal, would Sonic's AD really be that consistent for him to instantly grow by what, millions of times? If it's really so powerful he can grow that much faster in the midst of a hard battle, why doesn't that always happen?

It's rarely ever demonstrated because Sonic rarely ever fights people that many times faster than him. The speed sim growth is trash. I'm referring to the Sonic Battle AD where when he has something to fight for he grows "much stronger" (as stated verbatim by Rouge). He only demonstrates this growth against opponents many many times stronger/faster than him (Jumped several tiers to fight Emerl, Classic jumped from his stats to be comparable to Modern in Generations, and in Forces). So yes, if he starts speed unequalized he'd catch up instantly. The only way he wouldn't is if the gap was negligible, then I'd agree he's not increasing or closing the difference in any meaningful amount of time.

Does it take time for Sonic's speed to equalize with those faster than him? Cause even with my limited knowledge on the series, I can remember several times where Sonic was being outsped by another character

Addressed this above.

Infinite blatantly blitzed and beat up Sonic in Forces. If Sonic's AD is really so absurdly powerful it can kick in when he's being overwhelmed at any time, why didn't it kick in then? It feels to me like the moments where he does showcase that absurd level of AD are the minority rather than the norm.

Because AD has diminished returns. We don't assume AD for any character on the wiki is a constant otherwise you'd be able to say "up to High 3-A" for any character with the ability on the wiki since the growth would always be linear.

That said, you forgot to mention how in the exact same game, Sonic went from being equal to Infinite in their last encounter to fighting the Death Egg Robot who was empowered by the real Phantom Ruby that had the energy/power to create tens of thousands of clones of Infinite meaning Sonic's AP would've jumped an absurd amount in the small time between his fight with Infinite and the Death Egg Robot (It's also the game where he notoriously says he gets stronger every second after he was locked in prison for several months and then came out to square up with Infinite who was scared by his growth).

Basically; If the gap is any gap Sonic has shown to be able to close instantly in canon, we assume Sonic can close that gap instantly. If it's beyond the gap he's been shown to overcome in the games, we assume Sonic can't, or would take a long time to do so. Mario's not on Modern Sonic's level, so the gap can be closed.

 

[Omegabronic]

Say that again…

ahem THAT

 

[AyOgUyS]

The only time this has happened as far as i remember were like, Infinite... which stat gap was huge

So if the opponent is just overwhelming Sonic enough his AD doesn't kick in? That just makes it feel even more inconsistent. I really don't think yall should be arguing "Sonic ADstomps" whenever he's outstatted because that rarely even happens especially to an extent where he grows by like millions of times within the games.

 

[ARandomDude127]

ahem THAT

You ever played a lil game called ULTRAKILL pal?

 

[AyOgUyS]

That said, you forgot to mention how in the exact same game, Sonic went from being equal to Infinite in their last encounter to fighting the Death Egg Robot who was empowered by the real Phantom Ruby that had the energy/power to create tens of thousands of clones of Infinite meaning Sonic's AP would've jumped an absurd amount in the small time between his fight with Infinite and the Death Egg Robot (It's also the game where he notoriously says he gets stronger every second after he was locked in prison for several months and then came out to square up with Infinite who was scared by his growth).

I'd argue Forces is a outlier because Sonic was empowered by friendship but that's just headcanon so fine, fair enough I suppose.

 

[ARandomDude127]

Basically; If the gap is any gap Sonic has shown to be able to close instantly in canon, we assume Sonic can close that gap instantly. If it's beyond the gap he's been shown to overcome in the games, we assume Sonic can't, or would take a long time to do so. Mario's not on Modern Sonic's level, so the gap can be closed.

Ok so I can unequalize speed I assume?

 

[AyOgUyS]

Wait. What if Mario just does this:

• Transformation, Immortality (Type 7), & Intangibility (2 Layers; Can become a ghost upon death or on will. As a ghost, Mario can pass through objects. They can't be harmed by enemies such as Goombas, Koopas, Boos, and even Bowser all of which can interact with intangible beings)

Sonic doesn't have any layered NPI iirc so he won't be able to affect Mario. Can Mario do stuff as a ghost?

 

[IDK3465]

I wish Mario had the same level of Shōnen ridiculousness Sonic always seems to have, cause it always feels so goddamn unfair fighting against these guys
"Mario is faster because he does a faster feat-" "Nuh uh, Sonic adapts and stomps"

Like, why can't WE have some of that, yk?

 

[AyOgUyS]

Basically; If the gap is any gap Sonic has shown to be able to close instantly in canon, we assume Sonic can close that gap instantly. If it's beyond the gap he's been shown to overcome in the games, we assume Sonic can't, or would take a long time to do so. Mario's not on Modern Sonic's level, so the gap can be closed.

Wait wait wait wait. Hold on. Classic Sonic jumped literal infinities in Generations by being near Modern Sonic. Modern Sonic then can't close the very blatantly finite gap between him and Infinite in Forces. Doesn't this just blatantly indicate Generations is a special circumstance or just an outlier? According to you as long as the gap isn't greater than what he has crossed in canon (said gap would be like several infinities via Generations) he can close it instantly but if that's the case why can't Sonic do that in cases like Infinite where the stat gap is blatantly less than several infinities?

Also the Titans in Frontiers

 

[LaserPrecision]

Wait wait wait wait. Hold on. Classic Sonic jumped literal infinities in Generations by being near Modern Sonic. Modern Sonic then can't close the very blatantly finite gap between him and Infinite in Frontiers. Doesn't this just blatantly indicate Generations is a special circumstance or just an outlier? According to you as long as the gap isn't greater than what he has crossed in canon (said gap would be like several infinities via Generations) he can close it instantly but if that's the case why can't Sonic do that in cases like Infinite where the stat gap is blatantly less than several infinities?

I just explained diminishing returns on my previous comment:

Because AD has diminished returns. We don't assume AD for any character on the wiki is a constant otherwise you'd be able to say "up to High 3-A" for any character with the ability on the wiki since the growth would always be linear.

Just because Classic Sonic jumped from a finite tier to 2-C and Infinite speed doesn't mean that growth is linear or constant. Once Classic Sonic reached that level, any growth beyond that was substantially lower. Same for any character in fiction with AD. We don't assume they can grow at the same or an accelerated rate without explicit confirmation. You used Broly as an example, and he also has AD just like this. His greatest growth was from having a PL below 10,000 (Which is only like Planetary range) to the level of Goku and Vegeta in DBS who are 2-C. Yet once he reaches that level, why does he even struggle with their transformations? The gap between him and the transformations are much smaller than the gaps he just overcame a moment ago. By that logic he should've instantly adapted and killed Gogeta Blue and the God forms.

So if the opponent scales further into 2-C than Sonic, I agree his AD will be much slower. If they are lower in 2-C than Modern Sonic or not even 2-C, he will close the gap instantly.

 

[Causalist]

So, Mario gets basically everything except F.L.U.D.D and Cappy, while speed is no longer equalized. Am I getting this right? If so, OP should be edited. Also, congrats Laser, you finally got me to accept Sonic's stupid AD, because your points are actually good. Omega also helped sell me on the consistancy of it.

 

[Omegabronic]

Wait. What if Mario just does this:

• Transformation, Immortality (Type 7), & Intangibility (2 Layers; Can become a ghost upon death or on will. As a ghost, Mario can pass through objects. They can't be harmed by enemies such as Goombas, Koopas, Boos, and even Bowser all of which can interact with intangible beings)

Sonic doesn't have any layered NPI iirc so he won't be able to affect Mario. Can Mario do stuff as a ghost?

I mean... not being able to touch Mario won't stop Sonic from sealing + bfr with Chaos Control, so IDK how much that would help

Wait wait wait wait. Hold on. Classic Sonic jumped literal infinities in Generations by being near Modern Sonic. Modern Sonic then can't close the very blatantly finite gap between him and Infinite in Forces. Doesn't this just blatantly indicate Generations is a special circumstance or just an outlier? According to you as long as the gap isn't greater than what he has crossed in canon (said gap would be like several infinities via Generations) he can close it instantly but if that's the case why can't Sonic do that in cases like Infinite where the stat gap is blatantly less than several infinities?

Also the Titans in Frontiers

... they were 1-C while Sonic was 2-C mate... ain't no AD covering that

 

[Da3ggman]

Honestly this match shows me people aint ready for the tough talk that most mid battle AD is pure bullshit and realistically would never pop up in a setting like this; this goes for both sides btw. Well, that, and a lot of supposed "AD" is just writing inconsistencies and plot convenience (not necessarily for these but in general, though I do think it can apply for some examples here). This is not me saying they dont have it at all, obviously they do passively grow in some form throughout their adventures, but to assume they'll grow shitzillions of times stronger and faster because they got a little ouchy is quite silly imo.

Rant over, neutral for now.

Should probably revise AD one day.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Honestly this match shows me people aint ready for the tough talk that most mid battle AD is pure bullshit and realistically would never pop up in a setting like this; this goes for both sides btw. Well, that, and a lot of supposed "AD" is just writing inconsistencies and plot convenience (not necessarily for these but in general, though I do think it can apply for some examples here). This is not me saying they dont have it at all, obviously they do passively grow in some form throughout their adventures, but to assume they'll grow shitzillions of times stronger and faster because they got a little ouchy is quite silly imo.

Fair, but at the same time that would also effectively make AD useless if we just went "All characters with AD grow at an unknown rate and we should never assume they can grow as strong as they've shown in their own settings in a crossverse match through it."

 

[Remus1998]

• With Power Cores(Each being a 2x Boost[Link currently broken])

LINK CURRENTLY FIXED

 

[MicDaniel]

I feel as though Mario should have superior AD from what was seen in Mario Tennis Fever considering that games plot revolved around him becoming as weak as a baby and then within the span of a day of training he had regained power comparable to his adult self. He can also just have these exponential growths in the middle of combat such as changing the properties of his attack or dealing double damage.

Something else I want to bring up, the Power Star Mario has should Counter BFR and Sealing considering Power Stars can travel between dimensions and remove the seals bowsers placed on peach's castle. I'm not sure if anyone has brought that up yet. I skimmed through the thread.

Edit:
Does Sonic have an answer for Telekinesis from the Power Star?

 

[Nonynho]

yeah, 3 pages but there's only one thing that matters most:

-Can Mario's usual punches interact with Sonic?

1. If he can, basically any hit can be BFR
2. if he can't than stomp..?

 

[ARandomDude127]

So, Mario gets basically everything except F.L.U.D.D and Cappy, while speed is no longer equalized. Am I getting this right? If so, OP should be edited. Also, congrats Laser, you finally got me to accept Sonic's stupid AD, because your points are actually good. Omega also helped sell me on the consistancy of it.

Mb, I’ve been sleeping like a baby and I just woke up, I’ll get to it

 

[Causalist]

I feel as though Mario should have superior AD from what was seen in Mario Tennis Fever considering that games plot revolved around him becoming as weak as a baby and then within the span of a day of training he had regained power comparable to his adult self. He can also just have these exponential growths in the middle of combat such as changing the properties of his attack or dealing double damage.

Baby Mario downscales from his adult self, so it's not as impressive as it sounds.

Something else I want to bring up, the Power Star Mario has should Counter BFR and Sealing considering Power Stars can travel between dimensions and remove the seals bowsers placed on peach's castle. I'm not sure if anyone has brought that up yet. I skimmed through the thread.

The DT range of Power Stars is not enough here. They allow Mario to travel from between pocket dimensions in Peach's castle. Chaos Control's BFR can straight up banish Mario to distant timelines.

Edit:
Does Sonic have an answer for Telekinesis from the Power Star?

I can't even see telekinesis on his profile and don't recall Mario ever using it.

 

[Causalist]

yeah, 3 pages but there's only one thing that matters most:

-Can Mario's usual punches interact with Sonic?

1. If he can, basically any hit can be BFR
2. if he can't than stomp..?

They can. It's not like Sonic is intangible, but he has self momentum and teleportation, so just yeeting him isn't gonna win Mario the fight.

 

[ARandomDude127]

Fight has been updated accordingly.

 

[Da3ggman]

Fair, but at the same time that would also effectively make AD useless if we just went "All characters with AD grow at an unknown rate and we should never assume they can grow as strong as they've shown in their own settings in a crossverse match through it."

Nah some people who got legit mid battle AD can work still, like God of Highschool dudes got that shit on lock on screen consistently, but we ought to treat AD how it is treated in the actual series itself; if it happens a lot over and over again mid battle, sure, it can pop up. If it happened once or twice over the course of a 30 year, multi-media franchise, probably not gonna proc during a random fight. Like, it could, but I wouldn’t stake my argument on it.

 

[Galactidot]

Does Mario get Bonds- oh wait Luigi is absent

Is Luigi at least aware of this match? Mario is actually able to use Bonds to a limited extent when Luigi is absent, but they must be somewhat connected and thinking of each other.

That might give Mario some AP advantage and allow him to counter some hax butttt I need to know if he even "exists" in the context of this fight. Like, at all.

 

[ARandomDude127]

Does Mario get Bonds- oh wait Luigi is absent

4-B Sonic GENUINELY locking in to 2v1 2-B Mario and Luigi

 

[IDK3465]

Does Mario get Bonds- oh wait Luigi is absent

Is Luigi at least aware of this match? Mario is actually able to use Bonds to a limited extent when Luigi is absent, but they must be somewhat connected and thinking of each other.

That might give Mario some AP advantage and allow him to counter some hax butttt I need to know if he even "exists" in the context of this fight. Like, at all.

Well, we know thanks to TTYD and the Galaxy games that Bonds/the power of love/friendship can amp characters at a distance, even if the other character is in a completely separate location from the fight, so if Luigi or Peach or whoever the f*ck knows about the fight and roots for Mario, it could very easily close the gap, even with the amps

 

[Galactidot]

4-B Sonic GENUINELY locking in to 2v1 2-B Mario and Luigi

No don't worry we're not doing that LMAO!

I mean in the context of this fight, I'm not saying Luigi would join the battle because that'd just be kinda stupid

I'm asking if he literally EXISTS in here for Wish power to be given to Mario. It obviously wouldn't be as insane as a 2v1, but it has the power to allow Mario to deal damage to stronger foes, and Brothership has their Bond at it's strongest. Mario can be amped to survive (but not kill) Reclusa in the fight, even when Luigi is down. (Which obviously isn't something he could do in base, that's the verse's strongest villain we're talking about!)

 

[Galactidot]

Well, we know thanks to TTYD and the Galaxy games that Bonds/the power of love/friendship can amp characters at a distance, even if the other character is in a completely separate location from the fight, so if Luigi or Peach or whoever the f*ck knows about the fight and roots for Mario, it could very easily close the gap, even with the amps

This is precisely what I am saying!

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Nah some people who got legit mid battle AD can work still, like God of Highschool dudes got that shit on lock on screen consistently, but we ought to treat AD how it is treated in the actual series itself; if it happens a lot over and over again mid battle, sure, it can pop up. If it happened once or twice over the course of a 30 year, multi-media franchise, probably not gonna proc during a random fight. Like, it could, but I wouldn’t stake my argument on it.

Doesn't matte to me since Berserk has Guts consistently AD'ing even pre-Berserk Armor