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Champion of Midgard: The Thor Odinson MegaCRT
- Thread starter NaturalDestroyer
- Start date
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- Thread starter
- #282
I'm happy to put that feat at 1-A or to keep it at 1-A+. Whatever the group decides
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If it is consistent, and has an explicit storybacked explanation, for Universal Phoenix Force to increase its power to Multiversal Abstracts then I'm fine with 1-A+. But if that story is all there is, then I don't see any reason to treat it as a better feat than any of the other several feats of characters like Odin, Galactus, Amora, etc. affecting the whole Multiverse.
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But there are a lot of feats of characters who are at or below Universal Abstract level affecting the entire Multiverse. This means that affecting the entire Marvel Multiverse doesn't necessarily mean affecting Multiversal Eternity, or even Universal Eternity True Form. Could you elaborate more on how FinePoint's proposal changes that?Well, all of those feats actually explicitly happened, so, again, FinePoint's upcoming solution of "general/maximum" portrayal statistic ratings seems good.
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The point is that we cannot just systematically ignore those feats, as they were presented in very explicit manners by the responsible writers.
FinePoint's proposal allows us to list statistics both for general and peak power portrayals for verses that are illogically enormously inconsistent, such as Marvel Comics, and as such will hopefully make our scaling between different characters easier and greatly lessen our tendency to be a common internet laughing stock.
FinePoint's proposal allows us to list statistics both for general and peak power portrayals for verses that are illogically enormously inconsistent, such as Marvel Comics, and as such will hopefully make our scaling between different characters easier and greatly lessen our tendency to be a common internet laughing stock.
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We can't ignore them, but we also can't cherry-pick. They need to be consistent. Galactus, Odin, Amora, Thor, Eric Masterson, Zeus, Hercules, Atlas, and more have feats of affecting the entire Multiverse just as the Universal Phoenix Force does. Universal Eternity is explicitly stronger than all of them, as he is stated to be the most powerful Abstract. Even listing those feats as peak doesn't fix that at all, because listing any of those characters' peaks as being infinitely above Universal Eternity would still be wrong. Because of all of these feats, it is consistently implied that destroying a Marvel reality is not the same thing as overpowering that Eternity. Likewise, destroying the Multiverse doesn't mean the character overpowering infinite Eternities at once.The point is that we cannot just systematically ignore those feats, as they were presented in very explicit manners by the responsible writers.
FinePoint's proposal allows us to list statistics both for general and peak power portrayals for verses that are illogically enormously inconsistent, such as Marvel Comics, and as such will hopefully make our scaling between different characters easier and greatly lessen our tendency to be a common internet laughing stock.
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From a logical perspective I agree with you, but, again, the Marvel Comics authors usually don't care about their stories making any sense, and we cannot exclude the highest feats just because we feel like it, so I much prefer FinePoint's solution to this inconsistency.
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I'm not advocating to ignore the feats, just treat them differently. I think FinePoint's solution, if I understand it correctly, would make it much worse and more inconsistent by having tons of Skyfather characters scaled to Multiversal Abstract level at peak, when that is obviously not narratively consistent or implied.From a logical perspective I agree with you, but, again, the Marvel Comics authors usually don't care about their stories making any sense, and we cannot exclude the highest feats just because we feel like it, so I much prefer FinePoint's solution to this inconsistency.
What I propose is that feats of affecting or destroying a reality (or all of them) should be treated as Low 1-A/1-A since it is frequently treated narratively as a different thing than defeating and killing an Eternity. (Personally, I still don't like 1-A for these characters because, frankly, I don't think realms like the Astral Plane or Nightmare's realms, housing/sourcing concepts, make them 1-A, since characters without qualitative superiority can affect them. Tbh I'd honestly prefer High 1-B even)
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- Thread starter
- #290
If I were in charge of Marvel editorial, the cosmic hierarchy would be a lot more consistent (even at the expense of my favorite characters). But like Ant said, it is what it is in terms of consistency. The feats and author intention are clearly there
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- #291
I feel like you're onto something with Eternity /=/ Multiverse. If we can find really solid evidence for that it could help resolve some things, because Skyfathers scaling to the multiverse is pretty consistent
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Sure, but the author intention is clearly that Universal Eternity is above Phoenix Force users since that is directly stated and (to my knowledge) there aren't any statements or feats indicating otherwise). The feat of Thor and Amora affecting the entire Multiverse is clear, but it is also clear that the author intention isn't for them to be infinitely more powerful than Eternity.
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- #293
Perhaps the greater Multiverse would be simple 1-A, while Multi Eternity himself would be 1-A+? That seems like a good middle ground to account for the fact that each timeline of the multiverse contains multiple 1-A realms
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Agreed. It is what it is, very unfortunately.
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I think that works (although I still support High 1-B/Low 1-A over 1-A...). Imo I think that we should treat destroying realities as just the realms inside of them, and have Abstract scaling be separate from that.
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After reviewing the relevant scans and justifications, I feel it would be most appropriate to split Thor's Complete All-Father key in order to account for Immortal Thor a) having a stronger Mjolnir and b) having rune weapons that significantly increase his offensive and defensive capabilities. Please review the proposed new profile and comment with your feedback, ESPECIALLY on formatting errors you catch. I believe this to be a significant improvement over the current profile and I'm sure that all of us together can make this draft even better.
PROPOSED NEW PROFILE PAGE FOR THOR https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:NaturalDestroyer/Thor_Odinson_(Marvel_Comics) This proposed profile supersedes the original version of the OP and would split the keys as follows:
Stamina, Intelligence, Weakness, and Equipment sections have been updated.
Each key has been considerably beefed up with far more and far stronger justifications for each tier.
The Variability and Mystic Cosmology blogs have been added to the "Explanation" link.
PROPOSED NEW PROFILE PAGE FOR THOR https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:NaturalDestroyer/Thor_Odinson_(Marvel_Comics) This proposed profile supersedes the original version of the OP and would split the keys as follows:
- Unworthy Thor (5-B to High 3-A normally. Low 1-A to 1-A at peak)
- Base Thor (High 3-A normally. Low 1-A to 1-A at peak)
- Incomplete All-Father Thor (Low 1-A to 1-A)
- Herald of Thunder (Low 1-A to 1-A)
- Complete All-Father Thor (Low 1-A to 1-A)
- Rune King Thor (1-A)
- Immortal All-Father Thor (1-A, possibly up to High 1-A with Rune Weapons
Stamina, Intelligence, Weakness, and Equipment sections have been updated.
Each key has been considerably beefed up with far more and far stronger justifications for each tier.
The Variability and Mystic Cosmology blogs have been added to the "Explanation" link.
The_Renegade_Slugger
She/Her- 230
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You should make the P&A box scrollable instead of jus really long
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Does All-Father Thor have any feats against the Utgard Gods before getting the Rune weapons? I don't quite remember
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How does one do that?
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None that would scale him to them, no. The closest is him banishing Toranos, but he was heavily outclassed in that fight and had to use trickery and BFR to do anything. He forged Tormod almost immediately after that fight and Yolgjord shortly after, and it was when he had both that he killed Toranos and Mejed, broke NRGL, and injured/took direct hits from Kemur
The_Renegade_Slugger
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The thing is, I don't know
MrKerf
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Just copy my Moira page. I’d help you over Discord, but I am on the phone.
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- #304
No worries, I'll take a look at the code
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The biggest question I have: how many of the speed feats I have listed as "infinite" would actually be "immeasurable"?
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What does "Immortal All-Father Thor" mean, and why is he listed higher than Rune King Thor?
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Never mind. I skimmed through your profile page.
Anyway, a few comments. The following header image looks awful. We either need to remove or replace it.
I think that we should simply consider "Immortal All-Father Thor" to be regular full Odinforce Thor with additional rune-weapons. An extra key is unnecessary.
Kemur is definitely not the most powerful of the elder gods. He simply viewed himself that way out of kingly egomania until he met Atum. He is the corresponding higher being to Dario Agger/The Minotaur, just as Utgard-Loki is to Loki, and Toranos was to Thor, and Dario Agger is not nearly as powerful as either of them.
Anyway, a few comments. The following header image looks awful. We either need to remove or replace it.
I think that we should simply consider "Immortal All-Father Thor" to be regular full Odinforce Thor with additional rune-weapons. An extra key is unnecessary.
Kemur is definitely not the most powerful of the elder gods. He simply viewed himself that way out of kingly egomania until he met Atum. He is the corresponding higher being to Dario Agger/The Minotaur, just as Utgard-Loki is to Loki, and Toranos was to Thor, and Dario Agger is not nearly as powerful as either of them.
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MrKerf
He/Him- 2,794
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MrKerf
He/Him- 2,794
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Also, I just thought of something. Phoenix Thor is 1-A+ via stopping FF wave, which in turn, I presume, is 1-A+ for threatening Multiverse. However, it was depicted as a wave/ocean/whatever, which implies an overtime event. Don’t we treat overtime feats differently, not scaling from the full scope? (I remember something like that from Dragon Ball)
MrKerf
He/Him- 2,794
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Well, he helped to repell the entire First Firmament from crashing into the entire Marvel multiverse, so I do not think that applies here.
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Wasn't that a omniversal wave?Well, he helped to repell the entire First Firmament from crashing into the entire Marvel multiverse, so I do not think that applies here.
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The reasoning for having an additional key is so Immortal Thor's higher ends, which are higher than RKT, can be properly accounted for (in addition to having a stronger Mjolnir than ever). That way the strongest key can be saved for last.Never mind. I skimmed through your profile page.
Anyway, a few comments. The following header image looks awful. We either need to remove or replace it.
I think that we should simply consider "Immortal All-Father Thor" to be regular full Odinforce Thor with additional rune-weapons. An extra key is unnecessary.
Kemur is definitely not the most powerful of the elder gods. He simply viewed himself that way out of kingly egomania until he met Atum. He is the corresponding higher being to Dario Agger/The Minotaur, just as Utgard-Loki is to Loki, and Toranos was to Thor, and Dario Agger is not nearly as powerful as either of them.
Kemur was referred to as the greatest of the Elder Gods not by himself, but by GoS Loki who was narrating Thor. Additionally, Dario is only "Kemur's emissary", not Asa-Kemur, as he himself is not truly a god. His origin is entirely separate from true gods, who are shadows cast by the Elder Gods, who themselves are primordial concepts made manifest. Kemur not only is the concept of kingship, but is directly referred to as "bull and hawk and serpent... fire and the sword" the latter half of which implies a relationship with and transcendence over Surtur, if anything, rather than a mortal twisted by magic. He's also directly called "the God of Violence", and in Immortal Thor 23 it's clearly stated that when he ruled over the Elder Gods "those who did not bow, he cut with his blade and gored with his horns. Those who did bow, he trampled with his hooves" and specifically that "none could challenge his rule". Not that none did--that none of the Elder Gods could, until Atum showed up. The art depicts Kemur physically battling other Elder Gods, with Utgard-Loki reeling and shards of broken bone flying away from his body.
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Thank you for your feedback and for taking time to listen to the evidence! Additionally, the image for Incomplete All-Father Thor has been replaced by a high quality representation.Okay. I suppose that seems to make sense then.
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Ant, should I put you down for "in favor" of the proposed fixes and additions?
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I don't think we should start tallying votes yet, as there is still discussion to be had on what feats can be used and what tier to scale them to
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Thank you. It looks better now.
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