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This thread's primary purpose is to give new/better insight into what has been established already for how the scaling of the Titan from Deltarune is meant to be handled and viewed, more-or-less going against the current revision of what a Titan "is" and how it scales from the dark fountains.
On top of this, it will be divided into separate parts to make it easier to digest what is being argued here.
So, with that established, let us begin.
Part 1: Titan's Physiology
From what can be learned about the Titan, it is the result of creating a powerful Dark Fountain that has the darkness roaring wildly. Despite this simple description, it is often mistaken to say that the Titan is the personification of a fountain. Although this is easy to say, the juxtaposition between both constructs make their subtle, yet distinct qualities very clear due to the narrative repeatedly exemplifying said differences.
What is already established is that Dark Fountains are geysers of special darkness that, when something from the light comes into contact with it, gets warped into something fantastical, whether it be a person or place. (Obviously though, these fanciful constructs still do affect the real world to a degree) The Titan is no different when it comes to this transformation, as we can see that it isn’t necessarily the geyser, but rather what comes from it. In other words, it is the very darkness the fountain spews out, personified as the fear of the dark to one’s mind. Not only does the narrative establish this in the Check option, but Ralsei further solidifies this by not only describing it as the fear of the dark but also the “bump-in-the-night” and “the shadow of the backside of your mind”. The legend of DELTA RUNE itself also confirms this, saying how “the sky will run black with terror” and the land cracking with fear. We know that it’s specifically darkness that they form from due to what Fountains are. It’s repeatedly stated by the narrative to be a construct of this special darkness itself, given form in the Dark World. Each cloud of darkness released from these fountains is just a piece of what conjures up the alternate lens into another world, which is what we can see the Titan is made up of. This is also why Titans are able to be formed. When the Knight summoned multiple swords in order to create a big enough crack for the Titan to be summoned, that same method of creating a powerful Fountain is why the darkness was “roaring wildly”. a bigger fountain leads to more darkness, which this darkness is what makes the Titan itself appear, not necessarily embodying the fountain.
So, why is any of this important? Well, this showcases that Titans aren’t necessarily a living version of a Fountain, and them being one actually goes against the notions we’re given in the story.
This is explicitly true when we focus our gaze back to the Titan Spawn. The Titan Spawn is said to appear in the deep dark and, obviously, is a piece of the Titan. This is important to note, as not only is it night time whilst we’re in the church, but because of this, we see that the Titan Spawn is in both the section behind the Donation Fountain and before you meet Gerson, both sections that are known for being extremely dark and requiring echolocation/sound to navigate. This is also clear when we see them straight-up spawn from the darkness when we're about to jump down. We also know that they can be defeated primarily by using BANISH, purifying them and purging their form completely, which is a similar method also used on the Titan to weaken its defense .Not only this, but we see fuzzy-like darkness entities appear in dark places as well on numerous occasions, primarily on The Titan and in its fight. So, what can be said is that the Titan slowly develops overtime if there is more darkness present, taking form as darkness itself in the Dark World and the personification of the fear of the dark. However, it forms specifically FROM the Fountain due to the powerful overflow of darkness stemming from there, with the fountain itself being the epicenter and most potent source of darkness there is, which is why we see that pillar/fountain of darkness transform and molds into an egg-like manifold for the Titan. This fits together perfectly with the fountains “roaring wildly” whenever a Titan is about to be summoned. It is why the Titan the Delta Warriors fight not only hatch from the fountain due to it not fully developing a form despite it already coming from a fountain, but all the way back in Chapter 2, Ralsei explicitly states that the Titans form from the fountains, not necessarily becoming the fountains.
Part 2: Connection to Dark Fountains
Moving on, although it can be said that they still function or have the same nature as a fountain due to the connection, this is flawed as well if you look deeper into the intricacies of said argument.
In brief, sealing a Dark Fountain is not some complicated mechanism. It’s quite literally just fighting against the dark with a brilliant light, which the SOUL conveniently has. Any sort of light the SOUL gives off slowly burns away at darkness), especially darkness as “deep” as the Titan and its Spawn. We even see that this makes the darkness surrounding Susie and Kris disappear because of how this works, with this already being covered in the previous point of how the Spawn get purified because of this same technique.
Since UNLEASH was already enough to weaken its defenses and make a part of its form disappear, the fact that this is used as evidence to suggest they’re a living Fountain is just overall flimsy at best. Being able to get rid of parts of the Titan with light just shows something we already know.
Part 3: The Titan's "Dark Fountain"
For the final point, we need to go over the current scaling of the Titan and its justification. The sole reasoning of why the Titan scales to a city-level Dark World is simply because:
Not only does this assume that the Titan’s “fountain”, or I guess in this case "dark world", (really using that term loosely here) is already at the presumed pinnacle of how large dark worlds can be, but it has no evidence to suggest why it should be the case. Dark Worlds are messy, imaginative, and subjective. They may be large, but this does not mean all dark worlds have cities or are as large as one. The evidence cited on the accepted profile primarily consists of Cyber City only, which is a dark world that is…well…a city. However, this does not pertain to ALL dark worlds. Castle Town is not nearly as big as Cyber City and does not include entire cities in its area. The same goes for TV World, Card Kingdom, the Sanctuaries, and Flower Kingdom. Despite this, it is assumed that all dark worlds are this big because we’ve seen how big they can become, even though this is completely ignoring the narrative’s relevance of WHY Cyber City is this big. Cyber City takes place in a computer lab filled with computers/technology, primarily referencing the internet and the World Wide Web on multiple occasions, with this being because the Internet is commonly depicted in media to be a vast place due to the seemingly endless amount of content online.
On top of all of this, what makes it certain every Dark World will be the same as Cyber City? Dark Worlds are created when a lightner, aka a person from the real world, concentrated their will into a sharp object, like a knife and while pouring their determination into said object, stab the earth which creates a darkness that fills the room they are in with smoke. This process is explicitly volitional and conceptual. The mechanism is willpower meeting a physical anchor, and the output is a space shaped by intent rather than by the conservation of energy or matter. This is not analogous to any physical processes. The dark world’s size is directly related to the will of the user, which is seen as the Knight and Susie create two different worlds of the same area, and despite her will trying to replicate the exact same place.
So when darkness interacts with the original area, it varies based on the theme/setting of said area, making this not at all a reliable benchmark. From what we know, it's simply just trying to replicate one's will.
A good example is when the Cyber City dark world was made in the small confinements of a computer lab and yet can create an entire city because of the themes of the world (technology). This alone should already spread massive doubt on any attempt to treat a Dark World as physically meaningful or impactful when it comes to their sizes, especially since this can vary heavily, and with The Titan having a supposed fountain that isn’t proven to be on the same scale as Cyber City’s. In fact, even though the church is larger than the library, it produces a smaller dark world, because the theme of sanctuary with a church is more contained than the theme of a city with computers.
In fact, even though the church is larger than the library, it produces a smaller dark world, because the theme of sanctuary with a church is more contained than the theme of a city with computers.
In addition to this matter, Titans are NEVER established to function the same way normal fountains do. They get summoned because of a fountain roaring wildly, and doesn’t base itself on anything thematic or conceptual, it is based on the amount of darkness, which doesn’t give any actual merit to how potent its existence is based off of being a fountain alone.
Speaking of its existence, a major flaw I’d like to also point out in its scaling as a whole on top of all of what was aforementioned: It does not at all qualify for a Stabilization Feat that the profile implies it does. One of the biggest rules it breaks is the second rule, which goes as follows.
Titans are rather the darkness that emanate from the fountain itself rather than vice versa. They don’t keep a fountain in existence or sustain itself, it’s in fact the other way around. When a fountain becomes too powerful from the amount of darkness bubbling forth, it creates a Titan from all that darkness being spewed out.
This Titan, and presumably every other Titan, breaks this requirement heavily. If we were to say it has direct influence in the fountain itself. It doesn’t showcase any sustenance of the construct via its own power and rather just does it via EVERY SINGLE MEAN THAT CANNOT BE USED.
Ending Statements/Conclusions for Scaling
TLDR; Titans aren't necessarily a living form of fountains themselves but rather is darkness personified as fear, which is how the titan is summoned in the first place (from a large amount darkness "roaring wildly", which obviously would stem from the fountain itself due to being the most potent one.
The evidence for a Titan being a fountain is flimsy at best, not providing any new details on why it should be a fountain in of itself and not just darkness.
Giving the Titan the maximum size for how big we see Dark Worlds can be and stating that The Titan automatically scales to that is just based off nothing and is not grounded at all in the story. Dark Fountains vary heavily.
Even ignoring this, The Titan fails to fully complete the requirements needed for stabilization scaling.
If this is to be accepted, The Titans would no longer scale from the fountains themselves and their contents, and would be downgraded to their second best evidence of scaling, which is Small Town level (2.018 Kilotons), massively upscaling from GIGA Queen.
Of course, everyone who scales to the Titans, The Delta Warriors for example, would also be impacted by this and also be downgraded in the same manner.
Agree:
Neutral:
Disagree: @DarkDragonMedeus (comment), @Arceus0x, @Maniaunavailable, @StrymULTRA, @TheOrangeGuy09, @LittleGuy99, @Arkenis, @CastoriceTheFifth, @AyOgUyS, @ScoutManeater
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On top of this, it will be divided into separate parts to make it easier to digest what is being argued here.
So, with that established, let us begin.
Part 1: Titan's Physiology
From what can be learned about the Titan, it is the result of creating a powerful Dark Fountain that has the darkness roaring wildly. Despite this simple description, it is often mistaken to say that the Titan is the personification of a fountain. Although this is easy to say, the juxtaposition between both constructs make their subtle, yet distinct qualities very clear due to the narrative repeatedly exemplifying said differences.
What is already established is that Dark Fountains are geysers of special darkness that, when something from the light comes into contact with it, gets warped into something fantastical, whether it be a person or place. (Obviously though, these fanciful constructs still do affect the real world to a degree) The Titan is no different when it comes to this transformation, as we can see that it isn’t necessarily the geyser, but rather what comes from it. In other words, it is the very darkness the fountain spews out, personified as the fear of the dark to one’s mind. Not only does the narrative establish this in the Check option, but Ralsei further solidifies this by not only describing it as the fear of the dark but also the “bump-in-the-night” and “the shadow of the backside of your mind”. The legend of DELTA RUNE itself also confirms this, saying how “the sky will run black with terror” and the land cracking with fear. We know that it’s specifically darkness that they form from due to what Fountains are. It’s repeatedly stated by the narrative to be a construct of this special darkness itself, given form in the Dark World. Each cloud of darkness released from these fountains is just a piece of what conjures up the alternate lens into another world, which is what we can see the Titan is made up of. This is also why Titans are able to be formed. When the Knight summoned multiple swords in order to create a big enough crack for the Titan to be summoned, that same method of creating a powerful Fountain is why the darkness was “roaring wildly”. a bigger fountain leads to more darkness, which this darkness is what makes the Titan itself appear, not necessarily embodying the fountain.
So, why is any of this important? Well, this showcases that Titans aren’t necessarily a living version of a Fountain, and them being one actually goes against the notions we’re given in the story.
This is explicitly true when we focus our gaze back to the Titan Spawn. The Titan Spawn is said to appear in the deep dark and, obviously, is a piece of the Titan. This is important to note, as not only is it night time whilst we’re in the church, but because of this, we see that the Titan Spawn is in both the section behind the Donation Fountain and before you meet Gerson, both sections that are known for being extremely dark and requiring echolocation/sound to navigate. This is also clear when we see them straight-up spawn from the darkness when we're about to jump down. We also know that they can be defeated primarily by using BANISH, purifying them and purging their form completely, which is a similar method also used on the Titan to weaken its defense .Not only this, but we see fuzzy-like darkness entities appear in dark places as well on numerous occasions, primarily on The Titan and in its fight. So, what can be said is that the Titan slowly develops overtime if there is more darkness present, taking form as darkness itself in the Dark World and the personification of the fear of the dark. However, it forms specifically FROM the Fountain due to the powerful overflow of darkness stemming from there, with the fountain itself being the epicenter and most potent source of darkness there is, which is why we see that pillar/fountain of darkness transform and molds into an egg-like manifold for the Titan. This fits together perfectly with the fountains “roaring wildly” whenever a Titan is about to be summoned. It is why the Titan the Delta Warriors fight not only hatch from the fountain due to it not fully developing a form despite it already coming from a fountain, but all the way back in Chapter 2, Ralsei explicitly states that the Titans form from the fountains, not necessarily becoming the fountains.
Part 2: Connection to Dark Fountains
Moving on, although it can be said that they still function or have the same nature as a fountain due to the connection, this is flawed as well if you look deeper into the intricacies of said argument.
In brief, sealing a Dark Fountain is not some complicated mechanism. It’s quite literally just fighting against the dark with a brilliant light, which the SOUL conveniently has. Any sort of light the SOUL gives off slowly burns away at darkness), especially darkness as “deep” as the Titan and its Spawn. We even see that this makes the darkness surrounding Susie and Kris disappear because of how this works, with this already being covered in the previous point of how the Spawn get purified because of this same technique.
Since UNLEASH was already enough to weaken its defenses and make a part of its form disappear, the fact that this is used as evidence to suggest they’re a living Fountain is just overall flimsy at best. Being able to get rid of parts of the Titan with light just shows something we already know.
Part 3: The Titan's "Dark Fountain"
For the final point, we need to go over the current scaling of the Titan and its justification. The sole reasoning of why the Titan scales to a city-level Dark World is simply because:
Not only does this assume that the Titan’s “fountain”, or I guess in this case "dark world", (really using that term loosely here) is already at the presumed pinnacle of how large dark worlds can be, but it has no evidence to suggest why it should be the case. Dark Worlds are messy, imaginative, and subjective. They may be large, but this does not mean all dark worlds have cities or are as large as one. The evidence cited on the accepted profile primarily consists of Cyber City only, which is a dark world that is…well…a city. However, this does not pertain to ALL dark worlds. Castle Town is not nearly as big as Cyber City and does not include entire cities in its area. The same goes for TV World, Card Kingdom, the Sanctuaries, and Flower Kingdom. Despite this, it is assumed that all dark worlds are this big because we’ve seen how big they can become, even though this is completely ignoring the narrative’s relevance of WHY Cyber City is this big. Cyber City takes place in a computer lab filled with computers/technology, primarily referencing the internet and the World Wide Web on multiple occasions, with this being because the Internet is commonly depicted in media to be a vast place due to the seemingly endless amount of content online.
On top of all of this, what makes it certain every Dark World will be the same as Cyber City? Dark Worlds are created when a lightner, aka a person from the real world, concentrated their will into a sharp object, like a knife and while pouring their determination into said object, stab the earth which creates a darkness that fills the room they are in with smoke. This process is explicitly volitional and conceptual. The mechanism is willpower meeting a physical anchor, and the output is a space shaped by intent rather than by the conservation of energy or matter. This is not analogous to any physical processes. The dark world’s size is directly related to the will of the user, which is seen as the Knight and Susie create two different worlds of the same area, and despite her will trying to replicate the exact same place.
So when darkness interacts with the original area, it varies based on the theme/setting of said area, making this not at all a reliable benchmark. From what we know, it's simply just trying to replicate one's will.
A good example is when the Cyber City dark world was made in the small confinements of a computer lab and yet can create an entire city because of the themes of the world (technology). This alone should already spread massive doubt on any attempt to treat a Dark World as physically meaningful or impactful when it comes to their sizes, especially since this can vary heavily, and with The Titan having a supposed fountain that isn’t proven to be on the same scale as Cyber City’s. In fact, even though the church is larger than the library, it produces a smaller dark world, because the theme of sanctuary with a church is more contained than the theme of a city with computers.
In fact, even though the church is larger than the library, it produces a smaller dark world, because the theme of sanctuary with a church is more contained than the theme of a city with computers.
In addition to this matter, Titans are NEVER established to function the same way normal fountains do. They get summoned because of a fountain roaring wildly, and doesn’t base itself on anything thematic or conceptual, it is based on the amount of darkness, which doesn’t give any actual merit to how potent its existence is based off of being a fountain alone.
Speaking of its existence, a major flaw I’d like to also point out in its scaling as a whole on top of all of what was aforementioned: It does not at all qualify for a Stabilization Feat that the profile implies it does. One of the biggest rules it breaks is the second rule, which goes as follows.
Titans are rather the darkness that emanate from the fountain itself rather than vice versa. They don’t keep a fountain in existence or sustain itself, it’s in fact the other way around. When a fountain becomes too powerful from the amount of darkness bubbling forth, it creates a Titan from all that darkness being spewed out.
This Titan, and presumably every other Titan, breaks this requirement heavily. If we were to say it has direct influence in the fountain itself. It doesn’t showcase any sustenance of the construct via its own power and rather just does it via EVERY SINGLE MEAN THAT CANNOT BE USED.
Ending Statements/Conclusions for Scaling
TLDR; Titans aren't necessarily a living form of fountains themselves but rather is darkness personified as fear, which is how the titan is summoned in the first place (from a large amount darkness "roaring wildly", which obviously would stem from the fountain itself due to being the most potent one.
The evidence for a Titan being a fountain is flimsy at best, not providing any new details on why it should be a fountain in of itself and not just darkness.
Giving the Titan the maximum size for how big we see Dark Worlds can be and stating that The Titan automatically scales to that is just based off nothing and is not grounded at all in the story. Dark Fountains vary heavily.
Even ignoring this, The Titan fails to fully complete the requirements needed for stabilization scaling.
If this is to be accepted, The Titans would no longer scale from the fountains themselves and their contents, and would be downgraded to their second best evidence of scaling, which is Small Town level (2.018 Kilotons), massively upscaling from GIGA Queen.
Of course, everyone who scales to the Titans, The Delta Warriors for example, would also be impacted by this and also be downgraded in the same manner.
Agree:
Neutral:
Disagree: @DarkDragonMedeus (comment), @Arceus0x, @Maniaunavailable, @StrymULTRA, @TheOrangeGuy09, @LittleGuy99, @Arkenis, @CastoriceTheFifth, @AyOgUyS, @ScoutManeater
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