I don't think that incorporating the DeMatteis stuff will cause much of any issues. At the same time, I also heavily disagree that it will result in upgrades for the cosmology. Lots of people have EXTREMELY over exaggerated the standing of DeMatteis’ depictions of his characters for both Marvel and for DC. The reality is MOST of his “dream within dreams” and “worlds within worlds” stuff that people love to endlessly discuss and use (for both Marvel and DC) to wank his content doesn’t even qualify for quantitative superiority let alone Qualitative and even Meta-Qualitative transcendence beyond that. At the moment, I think that the current DeMatteis profiles such as the key on Eternity need to be removed (along with the ones on Franklin Richards and Man Thing's profile if they still have any references to their former DeMatteis keys). They were proposed by a dude who seemed hellbent on upgrading everything to High-1A+ without being logically consistent and while stretching the truth in order to achieve those ends.
That being said, I do think that there definitely should be an additional key for Oblivion. As such, the DeMatteis key should be downgraded to "just" High-1A from High-1A+ and renamed to something else more suitable and given more detail:
I posted this quote a few pages back by Al Ewing, the primary Marvel Cosmology crafter at the moment, regarding his thoughts on Oblivion:
- “But there’s a sort of shelf life to these ideas, and at a certain point they almost start to be restrictive. I always get people asking me about Oblivion, who’s this guy with a tablecloth for a face. And people ask me about him because in an Iceman miniseries from the ‘80’s, J.M. DeMatteis puts words in his mouth that are like, “oh, before there was anything there was absolute Oblivion.” So it’s like, “well, he’s even bigger than The One Above All!”
This is consistent with Jim Starlin’s depiction of Oblivion as well:
When Thanos gets the power of The One Above All, he is still contained within the void of Oblivion. When he / his more powerful future self plan on committing suicide, it is stated that he will be sending himself to Oblivion. The void that exists outside of One Above All Thanos is Oblivion.
This would also align with
The One Above All and Vinruviel, The Mother of Horrors, who both emerged independently of their own power. They obviously had to emerge from something and exist within something, it would make sense if the void they were born from is Oblivion.
And of course there is the DeMatteis depiction of him that Al Ewing refers to in the quote regarding the Iceman series
as well as his characterization of him in the Chaos War story arc.
In conclusion Oblivion deserves to have his DeMatteis key renamed and updated. This key would place it above The One Above All.
Additionally, I do not think that some of the abstracts such as the Phoenix Force and Never Queen should be Meta-Qualitatively superior to the other abstracts.
The Never Queen was the sentience of The Fourth Cosmos. She was
severely affected by the actions of the Beyonders during Secret Wars, and cannot exist when there is no future for reality, only returning when existence is saved. This is consistent with the fact that
along with Eternity and The Griever at The End of All Things, they from the Three Faces of Existence.This is
shown again. The Phoenix Force is the force of life and resurrection throughout all of Eternity and, like The Never Queen, should not be treated as impossibly superior to him rather as a contemporary like all of the other abstracts.
In the latest Phoenix run, the Phoenix Force was going to be killed by the Abstracts, a manifestation of Oblivion in particular, while inside of The White Hot Room itself. The Phoenix is considered to be a part of The Abstracts' pantheon and there is no implication of superiority. Jean even states that there is no chance she can win and that The White Hot Room will be destroyed. The Phoenix Force was only saved by the Abstracts being convinced that compassion was needed. (The New Abstract deigns are atrocious. Anyone involved in creating the artwork, the decision process to redesign them, and any writer that participates in a comic that uses these designs should be fired.) There is also the erroneous assertion that The Elder Gods are more powerful than The Abstracts
when that obviously is not the case as seen with The Powers That Be seeing Chthon, one of if not the strongest Elder God, as but one of its practitioners. This makes sense as Magic
was created in The Fifth Cosmos so it is but a product of that rendition of reality.
Additionally, a manifestation of The Griever at The End of All Things can destroy Chthon. Her language demonstrates that she holds the universal concepts to be of more significance than him as well. Furthermore,
that manifestation of The Griever at The End of All Things effortlessly dispatches Living Dark Hold Wanda who has to be reformed by The Never Queen (who is referred to as the sister of The Griever numerous times providing more linkage between the two). Wanda would be awakened and sent back to reality and, with the Never Queen's backing alongside Pietro, defeat her. Then of course there is the relationship between The Celestials and The Beyonders and Eternity.
The Celestials were created by The first Firmament, the first sentient reality of which Eternity is a descendent.
The Celestials created the Beyonders and The Beyond itself is part of the remains of The Second Cosmos formed after it commit suicide. (
It is later shown that The Celestials created Cal-Horra who then himself created The Beyonders ).
I do not think that Al-Ewing’s Kabbalistic Cosmology is much of an actually Hierarchy as people have interpreted it to be and is instead more of a spiritual map of existence. People have read too much into Al-Ewing's realms that he has assigned to different placements on The Tree of Life as Sefirot and Qliphoth. As stated, it appears these are more of spiritual significance than actual cosmological placement. It is clear that most of these realms overlap with each other in some way. Even if they are an actual hierarchy, it is not one of absolute transcendence between levels.
