Undertale: They're non-binary

[Comiphorous]

Frisk

Frisk is the protagonist of Undertale and the eighth human to fall into the Underground. Virtually nothing is known about their life prior to their fall, as even their gender remains ambiguous. Being taken in by Toriel, they eventually decide to leave and explore the Underground to potentially...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Chara

Chara was the first human to fall into the Underground. They were adopted by King Asgore and Queen Toriel after being rescued by their son Asriel, becoming an adoptive member of the family. Not much is know about the child's past or personality while they were alive, but they were described by...

vsbattles.fandom.com

A CRT for Kris was made to change their gender section to Non-Binary, which reminded me that these two are classified as unknown as well, and have been for some time.

Just like their distant cousin Kris Dreemurr of Deltarune, Chara and Frisk are non-binary characters who go by They/Them for the whole game, with Chara going by it/it's occasionally as well. Toby refers to them in the same manner.

Very simple.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Makes sense to me. Agreed.

 

[Omegabronic]

Frisk

Frisk is the protagonist of Undertale and the eighth human to fall into the Underground. Virtually nothing is known about their life prior to their fall, as even their gender remains ambiguous. Being taken in by Toriel, they eventually decide to leave and explore the Underground to potentially...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Chara

Chara was the first human to fall into the Underground. They were adopted by King Asgore and Queen Toriel after being rescued by their son Asriel, becoming an adoptive member of the family. Not much is know about the child's past or personality while they were alive, but they were described by...

vsbattles.fandom.com

A CRT for Kris was made to change their gender section to Non-Binary, which reminded me that these two are classified as unknown as well, and have been for some time.

Just like their distant cousin Kris Dreemurr of Deltarune, Chara and Frisk are non-binary characters who go by They/Them for the whole game, with Chara going by it/it's occasionally as well. Toby refers to them in the same manner.

Very simple.

Since this is the same argument, I'll just link the same response of the other thread

"They/Them" actually are gender neutral pronouns, we don't know what gender Kris identifies as, if any, they can equally be used for people who don't identify as any gender at all, or, for an outside meta perspective, simply be used as a way to not reveal or indicate any gender for a character for any particular reason or another


I don't see how that proves anything? Or correlates for that matter? They/Them is STILL not Nonbinary exclussive, pronouns alone don't prove any particular gender in this case regardless of Kris being their own character or not



You would still need to prove this is because they are, specifically, Nonbinary, instead of not identifying as any gender, or because Toby simply didn't want to asign a specific gender to them and simply wanted to leave it open to interpretation


Toby didn't correct them, nor did anyone there seemed to even notice that "he" was used... again, pronouns alone do not prove gender here, the pronoun is gender neutral, not Nonbinary exclusive

So i disagree, the page already conveys the true meaning of "they/them" as being neutral and capable of referring to any gender, aka, we simply don't know Kris' gender as of now

 

[RubyVeronica]

Isn't chara/frisk being called they/them because Toby fox mentions their actual gender can be up to intepretation? So I don't think they are actually non-binary

 

[Comiphorous]

Isn't chara/frisk being called they/them because Toby fox mentions their actual gender can be up to intepretation? So I don't think they are actually non-binary

This isn't 2016. They are their own characters and have been. They're just non-binary, it aint up to interpretation and hasn't been for a long time.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Why do you need a crt for this

 

[Comiphorous]

Why do you need a crt for this

Their pages are locked because they're tier 1 royalty.

 

[Omegabronic]

This isn't 2016. They are their own characters and have been. They're just non-binary, it aint up to interpretation and hasn't been for a long time.

Considering that "being their own character" has nothing to do with "the gender of the character is up to interpretation"... I really don't see your point here? Specially since for some reason you are acting as if gender neutral pronouns specify a gender instead of... being neutral, specially when agender people exist, which can equally use "they/them"

 

[ScoutManeater]

I feel like this is alot more ambiguous then Kris cuz unlike Kris both of them have not confirmed to be non binary just using ambiguous pronouns its alot more controversial and I feel like Unknown is the right term

 

[Omegabronic]

Also for more reasons as to why "They/Them" is used in its gender neutral way





Toby uses "They/Them" for Monster Kid specifically because he didn't want to assign any specific gender to them, so we have precedent for how and why Toby uses "They/Them" for his characters

 

[ScoutManeater]

Also for more reasons as to why "They/Them" is used in its gender neutral way





Toby uses "They/Them" for Monster Kid specifically because he didn't want to assign any specific gender to them, so we have precedent for how and why Toby uses "They/Them" for his characters

This and also in a interview he skipped a question asking about Frisk and Chara's gender
Interviewer: "The protagonist in UNDERTALE is of ambiguous gender. This is also true of many of the monsters he/she encounters along the way. Was this a design choice, and what role does androgyny play in your vision of the world?"
Toby Fox: "Skip."
Though I agree with Kris being changed I do not agree with this and should be left as unknown as I think any gender applied to chara or frisk whether girl boy or non binary is fine as I feel like its up to interpretation

 

[Diamond_Drone]

Also for more reasons as to why "They/Them" is used in its gender neutral way





Toby uses "They/Them" for Monster Kid specifically because he didn't want to assign any specific gender to them, so we have precedent for how and why Toby uses "They/Them" for his characters

This is just a comment from the translators saying that Monster Kid has "no specified gender", it's not directly from Toby himself so using it to say Toby's characters aren't intended to be Non-Binary is uhhh... certainly a take (Also doesn't that book also make it clear when they are directly quoting Toby for things like Determination or something?)

I think the only major problemswith both this and the other DR is the fact they only provide evidence that They/Them are used for the characters but not WHY it should be taken as evidence for Non-Binary and not something like "I'm using Gender Neutral pronouns because I don't know this guy and I'm trying to be respectful!". I know that Kris has lots of strong arguments supporting the former than the latter, so I'm fine with how their CRT is going at least.

 

[Omegabronic]

This is just a comment from the translators saying that Monster Kid has "no specified gender", it's not directly from Toby himself so using it to say Toby's characters aren't intended to be Non-Binary is uhhh... certainly a take (Also doesn't that book also make it clear when they are directly quoting Toby for things like Determination or something?)

This page literally says Toby was consulted for this part... It is information taken directly from him

I am simply saying Toby uses "They/Them" as gender neutral/ambiguous too... so one should not disregard that if the only argument is that "they use They/Them"

I think the only major problemswith both this and the other DR is the fact they only provide evidence that They/Them are used for the characters but not WHY it should be taken as evidence for Non-Binary and not something like "I'm using Gender Neutral pronouns because I don't know this guy and I'm trying to be respectful!". I know that Kris has lots of strong arguments supporting the former than the latter, so I'm fine with how their CRT is going at least.

Also They/Them are neutral terms, doesn't need to refer to Non-Binary necessarily

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I don't know much about this whole gender and pronoun thing, but from what I see online (and on Twitter), isn't it usually flexible? Like, a person of the female gender, doesn't necessarily limit themselves to using only female pronouns to refer to themselves (they might use neutral or masculine ones too). I think I've seen that on Twitter.

Take the Japanese language, for instance. There’s the personal pronoun boku, which is used almost exclusively by men. But that doesn't stop women from using it, even though it’s quite rare. For example, Diane from Nanatsu no Taizai uses (or used—I'm not sure if she stopped) boku to refer to herself. And I don't think anyone here doubts her gender just because she uses a pronoun mostly used by men.

Like, can someone who only wants to use "they/them" pronouns to refer to themselves only be non-binary? Isn't there ever a case where someone identifies as one gender or the other but prefers using neutral pronouns? I'm pretty sure I've seen something like that around.

 

[Mythic381]

Disagree FRA. I don't really see how the points necessarily prove them being non-binary, the pronouns in question are gender neutral.

 

[Comiphorous]

This page literally says Toby was consulted for this part... It is information taken directly from him

I am simply saying Toby uses "They/Them" as gender neutral/ambiguous too... so one should not disregard that if the only argument is that "they use They/Them"

That isn't what you posted even says. It says Toby uses they/them for MK since MK was specifically designed to have an ambiguous gender. Monster Kid, not all collection of characters, just monster kid. You're taking the design philosophy of one character and trying to apply it two different characters.

Also They/Them are neutral terms, doesn't need to refer to Non-Binary necessarily

Non-binary is literally just the person doesn't see themselves as exclusively male or female. That's it. Saying they aren't non-binary would but the burden of proof on you to prove they're strictly male or female, which i would love to try and see you prove considering the effort toby put into making sure they used nothing but neutral pronouns for the two.

I don't know much about this whole gender and pronoun thing, but from what I see online (and on Twitter), isn't it usually flexible? Like, a person of the female gender, doesn't necessarily limit themselves to using only female pronouns to refer to themselves (they might use neutral or masculine ones too). I think I've seen that on Twitter.

Take the Japanese language, for instance. There’s the personal pronoun boku, which is used almost exclusively by men. But that doesn't stop women from using it, even though it’s quite rare. For example, Diane from Nanatsu no Taizai uses (or used—I'm not sure if she stopped) boku to refer to herself. And I don't think anyone here doubts her gender just because she uses a pronoun mostly used by men.

Like, can someone who only wants to use "they/them" pronouns to refer to themselves only be non-binary? Isn't there ever a case where someone identifies as one gender or the other but prefers using neutral pronouns? I'm pretty sure I've seen something like that around.

Considering this quote by Toriel;

Why not use your imagination to divert yourself? Pretend you are… a monarch!

If they were a man or women who were using neutral pronouns, they'd just be referred to as a queen or king in that case.

 

[Omegabronic]

That isn't what you posted even says. It says Toby uses they/them for MK since MK was specifically designed to have an ambiguous gender. Monster Kid, not all collection of characters, just monster kid. You're taking the design philosophy of one character and trying to apply it two different characters.

Argument is "Toby will use they/them if he wants the gender to be ambiguous" that's all, i am not equating anyone to MK... seriously, why is everyone focusing on that? It is just to prove that Toby has more reasons to use "they/them" then "The character is Nonbinary"

 

[Comiphorous]

Argument is "Toby will use they/them if he wants the gender to be ambiguous" that's all, i am not equating anyone to MK... seriously, why is everyone focusing on that? It is just to prove that Toby has more reasons to use "they/them" then "The character is Nonbinary"

Yeah the argument is using a quote on the character philosophy on one character, and applying it on an unrelated one. I just need to make sure you understand you're using a statement on Monster Kid for Frisk (who is not monster kid)

That quote isn't a universal one, it's based off one character with said quote not even coming from Toby directly.

 

[Omegabronic]

Non-binary is literally just the person doesn't see themselves as exclusively male or female. That's it. Saying they aren't non-binary would but the burden of proof on you to prove they're strictly male or female, which i would love to try and see you prove considering the effort toby put into making sure they used nothing but neutral pronouns for the two.

I don't have a burden of proof as i am NOT TRYING TO PROVE they are male or female, I am saying "we don't know" the burden is on YOU to prove "They/Them" is being used BECAUSE they are Nonbinary instead of the myriad of other reasons, including, but not limited to, Toby not wanting to assign a gender to them

Considering this quote by Toriel;




If they were a man or women who were using neutral pronouns, they'd just be referred to as a queen or king in that case.

Or that is another instance of Toby not wanting to assign a gender to them, which is just as likely, if you want to prove it id because he is saying Frisk is Nonbinary, then the burden of proof is on you

If Toby was so certain of defining Frisk and Chara as specific genders... why did he straight up refused to answer the question about their gender in the Interview? Why not simply say "They're [insert gender]"?

 

[Omegabronic]

Yeah the argument is using a quote on the character philosophy on one character, and applying it on an unrelated one-

No, the argument is "Toby will use the gender neutral pronouns as gender neutral even if wants it to be ambiguous, as the pronouns are commonly used"

Now you prove that instead of that, or any other reason, he is using explicitly because he wanted Frisk and Chara to be Nonbinary, the pronouns are GENDER NEUTRAL they don't prove any gender whatsoever, nonbinary or otherwise

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Considering this quote by Toriel;


If they were a man or women who were using neutral pronouns, they'd just be referred to as a queen or king in that case.

I think that if a man or a woman wants to be referred to in a neutral way (like using neutral pronouns), that could also extend to other words like the one being used here.

Do you think that someone who identifies as a woman but uses neutral pronouns, for example, couldn't want to be called monarch instead of queen or king?

That seems a bit limiting to me. From what I've seen in conversations like this, people of any gender can use whatever pronouns or forms of address they prefer, as long as that's what makes them feel the most comfortable.

-

Furthermore, regarding the fact that it's a game—and considering we can give Frisk any name, whether typically masculine or feminine—how exactly would Toby Fox include that dialogue without using gender-neutral words or pronouns? For instance, if I name my character Peter and reach that part of the game, it would be weird to be called "Queen," just as it would be strange for someone named Maria to be referred to as "King." If Toby is giving us the option to play under any name—whether masculine or feminine—he had to come up with a solution that works for both cases, and a neutral approach is the only way to go. But that doesn't really say much about the main character's actual gender; rather, it simply means the character prefers to be referred to in neutral terms.

 

[Comiphorous]

I don't have a burden of proof as i am NOT TRYING TO PROVE they are male or female, I am saying "we don't know" the burden is on YOU to prove "They/Them" is being used BECAUSE they are Nonbinary instead of the myriad of other reasons, including, but not limited to, Toby not wanting to assign a gender to them

Not having an assigned gender is still non-binary, so...

again, non-binary is an umbrella term too.

If Toby was so certain of defining Frisk and Chara as specific genders... why did he straight up refused to answer the question about their gender in the Interview? Why not simply say "They're [insert gender]"?

Funny you ask, because he tweeted about that. The interviewer told him to skip questions he didn't find interesting, and he did just that. He didn't find the question interesting.

No, the argument is "Toby will use the gender neutral pronouns as gender neutral even if wants it to be ambiguous, as the pronouns are commonly used"

Let's add the big asterisk at the end there!; Toby will use the gender neutral pronouns as gender neutral even if wants it to be ambiguous*, as the pronouns are commonly used*

*for the character he specifically designed to be ambiguous with their gender

You're argument relies on using an aspect of a character who was designed with the ambiguity in mind, not every character who uses they/them. It just don't make sense.

Now you prove that instead of that, or any other reason, he is using explicitly because he wanted Frisk and Chara to be Nonbinary, the pronouns are GENDER NEUTRAL they don't prove any gender whatsoever, nonbinary or otherwise

You don't have this same energy when it comes to he/him and she/her being used to assume male or female, so honestly i'm hearing "I require more proof to accept a character is non-binary than to accept a character is a binary gender." Fun fact, most of the cast isn't stated to be male/female. we assume that based off their pronouns and place in the story.

Even with being completely gender neutral, going by they/them (it/it's in some cases), going by gender neutral titles, and while it is joke dialogue, going into a room that says "no girls/boys allowed" on it (this is papyrus' room) isn't enough for you is a little absurd, and will actively make up more complicated theoreticals in the name of them not being non-binary.

 

[ScoutManeater]

I think that if a man or a woman wants to be referred to in a neutral way (like using neutral pronouns), that could also extend to other words like the one being used here.

Do you think that someone who identifies as a woman but uses neutral pronouns, for example, couldn't want to be called monarch instead of queen or king?

That seems a bit limiting to me. From what I've seen in conversations like this, people of any gender can use whatever pronouns or forms of address they prefer, as long as that's what makes them feel the most comfortable.

-

Furthermore, regarding the fact that it's a game—and considering we can give Frisk any name, whether typically masculine or feminine—how exactly would Toby Fox include that dialogue without using gender-neutral words or pronouns? For instance, if I name my character Peter and reach that part of the game, it would be weird to be called "Queen," just as it would be strange for someone named Maria to be referred to as "King." If Toby is giving us the option to play under any name—whether masculine or feminine—he had to come up with a solution that works for both cases, and a neutral approach is the only way to go. But that doesn't really say much about the main character's actual gender; rather, it simply means the character prefers to be referred to in neutral terms.

should be noted we name Chara anything we are naming Chara
Flowey just mistakes us for Chara so he calls us by whatever name we give Chara but all these monsters call us human or child there is never a specified gender so saying they/them would mean nonbinary is still headcannon just as headcannon as girl and boy its why I believe its up to interpretation and should be left as unknown I disagree with changing Chara and Frisk to nonbinary

 

[ScoutManeater]

Funny you ask, because he tweeted about that. The interviewer told him to skip questions he didn't find interesting, and he did just that. He didn't find the question interesting.

that just means we have no clear answer so that means unknown would be the correct term for cannon

You don't have this same energy when it comes to he/him and she/her being used to assume male or female, so honestly i'm hearing "I require more proof to accept a character is non-binary than to accept a character is a binary gender." Fun fact, most of the cast isn't stated to be male/female. we assume that based off their pronouns and place in the story.

Even with being completely gender neutral, going by they/them (it/it's in some cases), going by gender neutral titles, and while it is joke dialogue, going into a room that says "no girls/boys allowed" on it (this is papyrus' room) isn't enough for you is a little absurd, and will actively make up more complicated theoreticals in the name of them not being non-binary.

I feel like this is just very backwards he/him and she/her are pretty clear when someone is trying to make someone male or female there are so many names titles you could give them which would confirm male or female they/them have many uses for multiple people for people who dont know what gender someone is aswell as for just ambigious or unknown genders for characters

With Kris it is much much more implied and the fact they are their own character and unlike undertale much is not left to the imagination they are way more clear cut but with Frisk and Chara it just isnt the same Frisk and Chara are more up to the imagination being able to freely name Chara aswell as the fact we are only referred to as human or child (a similar situation to Monster Kid)

plus the no girls/boys allowed again papyrus wouldnt even know if we are a girl or boy because he just calls us "tiny human" again fitting more with it being unknown instead of non binary

again you are free to have this interpretation but VSBW needing to stick to the story as close as possible it is best to leave it as unknown and let people use the pronouns they want for Chara Frisk Monster Kid etc

 

[Omegabronic]

Not having an assigned gender is still non-binary-

No it isn't... it is simply "unknown" as we don't know their gender as Toby never gave that information to us

Funny you ask, because he tweeted about that. The interviewer told him to skip questions he didn't find interesting, and he did just that. He didn't find the question interesting.

That's not what he said

He didn't "find them uninteresting" he "didn't felt like answering" which loops back to my previous point

Let's add the big asterisk at the end there!; Toby will use the gender neutral pronouns as gender neutral even if wants it to be ambiguous*, as the pronouns are commonly used*

*for the character he specifically designed to be ambiguous with their gender

You're argument relies on using an aspect of a character who was designed with the ambiguity in mind, not every character who uses they/them. It just don't make sense.

And your argument assumes that "They/Them" always means "Nonbinary", which is wrong both in and outside of the example, unless you can prove that he used "

You don't have this same energy when it comes to he/him and she/her being used to assume male or female, so honestly i'm hearing "I require more proof to accept a character is non-binary than to accept a character is a binary gender."

They/Them = Gender Neutral

He/Him = Male

She/Her = Female

The pronouns are different in meaning, the latter two prove gender, the former one doesn't, I don't need to accept something you didn't proved to begin with because you refuse to accept the Neutral nature of the pronouns in question, you still need to prove they are being used because the characters are nonbinary, you didn't

Fun fact, most of the cast isn't stated to be male/female. we assume that based off their pronouns and place in the story.

Yes, cuz Male and Females have pronouns that are indicate the gender

They/Them is neutral and can be used for ALL genders, as it doesn't indicate any

That's the difference

Even with being completely gender neutral, going by they/them (it/it's in some cases), going by gender neutral titles

aka... the gender is not specified, as it is neutral in nature... thanks for agreeing

and while it is joke dialogue, going into a room that says "no girls/boys allowed" on it (this is papyrus' room) isn't enough for you

Papyrus and Sans are both male and they can enter Papyrus's room... so this is just a joke, a little gag, and that's all... unless you wanna say Pap and Sans are Nonbinary too

is a little absurd, and will actively make up more complicated theoreticals in the name of them not being non-binary.

You are the one complicating stuff man, You are the one doing big assumptions on the name of WANTING to force your interpretation down other people's throats, regardless of how non substantiated it is

 

[Comiphorous]

should be noted we name Chara anything we are naming Chara
Flowey just mistakes us for Chara so he calls us by whatever name we give Chara but all these monsters call us human or child there is never a specified gender so saying they/them would mean nonbinary is still headcannon just as headcannon as girl and boy its why I believe its up to interpretation and should be left as unknown I disagree with changing Chara and Frisk to nonbinary

Sure we name chara, but we both know that whatever we call them isn't their real name. Their true name is Chara.

I feel like this is just very backwards he/him and she/her are pretty clear when someone is trying to make someone male or female there are so many names titles you could give them which would confirm male or female they/them have many uses for multiple people for people who dont know what gender someone is aswell as for just ambigious or unknown genders for characters

Jax from TADC is a closeted transgender woman, and goes by he/him through the entire series. Does the fact they go by he/him make them really a man because that's typical? No... they're still a woman despite going by he/him. The point is he/him and she/her technically never 'confirms' their gender yet we make a hassle when i use the same logic for a non-binary...

With Kris it is much much more implied and the fact they are their own character and unlike undertale much is not left to the imagination they are way more clear cut but with Frisk and Chara it just isnt the same Frisk and Chara are more up to the imagination being able to freely name Chara aswell as the fact we are only referred to as human or child (a similar situation to Monster Kid)

Frisk is their own character.

You can freely name Chara, but what you give them isn't their real name. Chara is also just their own character. They literally speak to you directly.

plus the no girls/boys allowed again papyrus wouldnt even know if we are a girl or boy because he just calls us "tiny human" again fitting more with it being unknown instead of non binary

Why would papyrus have any bearing on this. It's just on his door. Frisk has no reaction to it. Goes in. It's just a joke dialogue but atp we're grasping at straws in the name of no non-binary.

again you are free to have this interpretation but VSBW needing to stick to the story as close as possible it is best to leave it as unknown and let people use the pronouns they want for Chara Frisk Monster Kid etc

You can't say "we need to stick to the story as close as possible" and then proceed to say "let us use whatever pronouns we want for these characters who all go by they/them." You're arguing this being a headcanon in the name of keeping your own. Contradictions contradictions...

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Disagree FRA, it's intended to be neutral for player relatability purposes. Although our profile should probably reflect that instead of just saying "unknown".

 

[StarShooter80]

Why do you need a crt for this

I keep seeing editing clashes between pages like Kris for their gender so a CRT is kind of warranted to settle the matter

 

[ScoutManeater]

Sure we name chara, but we both know that whatever we call them isn't their real name. Their true name is Chara.

Jax from TADC is a closeted transgender woman, and goes by he/him through the entire series. Does the fact they go by he/him make them really a man because that's typical? No... they're still a woman despite going by he/him. The point is he/him and she/her technically never 'confirms' their gender yet we make a hassle when i use the same logic for a non-binary...

Frisk is their own character.

You can freely name Chara, but what you give them isn't their real name. Chara is also just their own character. They literally speak to you directly.

Why would papyrus have any bearing on this. It's just on his door. Frisk has no reaction to it. Goes in. It's just a joke dialogue but atp we're grasping at straws in the name of no non-binary.

You can't say "we need to stick to the story as close as possible" and then proceed to say "let us use whatever pronouns we want for these characters who all go by they/them." You're arguing this being a headcanon in the name of keeping your own. Contradictions contradictions...

for most of this reply you did not actually understand any of the points or completely misunderstand them

1. Jax is a completely different situation aswell ontop of that Goosework has said that both he/him and she/her works both are correct Toby has never said anything close to this

2. Papyrus not having any bearing on this? then why bring up the sign on papyrus's door??

3. I said the profile needs to stick to the story what we use does not affect the profile wdym contradictions?

my whole point isnt that they couldnt be non binary or any other gender my point is that nothing is confirmed strongly enough for Frisk or Chara to be changed to non binary as they/them can definetly be used for non binary people but it also very well can be used for unknown gender and ambigious player interpreted characters. Since Toby has evidently not confirmed anything it wouldnt make sense to change it from unknown

 

[Comiphorous]

1. Jax is a completely different situation aswell ontop of that Goosework has said that both he/him and she/her works both are correct Toby has never said anything close to this

Toby has literally corrected people using the wrong pronouns for chara. What do you mean. We know what pronouns are the right ones.

2. Papyrus not having any bearing on this? then why bring up the sign on papyrus's door??

Because papyrus is not his door.

3. I said the profile needs to stick to the story what we use does not affect the profile wdym contradictions?

This you?

it is best to leave it as unknown and let people use the pronouns they want for Chara Frisk Monster Kid etc

That aint sticking to the story, my brother in gaster. That's what i meant by contradictions.

my whole point isnt that they couldnt be non binary or any other gender my point is that nothing is confirmed strongly enough for Frisk or Chara to be changed to non binary as they/them can definetly be used for non binary people but it also very well can be used for unknown gender and ambigious player interpreted characters. Since Toby has evidently not confirmed anything it wouldnt make sense to change it from unknown

You got a character who universally goes by they/them (and it/it's), goes by gender neutral terms, and Toby has corrected fangamer from using he/him on Chara, (so no, it's not up to interpretation) it's fairly clear what's the intent here.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

unless you wanna say Pap and Sans are Nonbinary too

Sounds good to me, pretty much undeniable evidence /j

and Toby has corrected fangamer from using he/him on Chara,

How does this clash with it being gender neutral pronouns to make it more relatable to player, again? Since Toby not correcting this could be interpreted as conceding, so it still makes sense under what others are saying here.

 

[Comiphorous]

How does this clash with it being gender neutral pronouns to make it more relatable to player, again? Since Toby not correcting this could be interpreted as conceding, so it still makes sense under what others are saying here.

Luckily we don't have to think about the what if toby didn't correct it, considering he did.

 

[ScoutManeater]

Toby has literally corrected people using the wrong pronouns for chara. What do you mean. We know what pronouns are the right ones.

when? and why wasnt this provided earlier if this does exist?

Because papyrus is not his door.

I feel like the sentence answers itself but imma quickly say it Papyrus... owns his door.

This you?

Yea that is me because gender is unknown in the cannon best to leave it unknown with the context that im talking about the profile and let people use what they want cuz its interpretations of the characters unless you are gonna go after anyone who refers to monster kid as a boy

You got a character who universally goes by they/them (and it/it's), goes by gender neutral terms, and Toby has corrected fangamer from using he/him on Chara, (so no, it's not up to interpretation) it's fairly clear what's the intent here.

Toby says "Chara I will miss them" he never corrects anyone here he just uses they/them which makes sense because if Toby wants the characters to have a unknown or ambigious gender he wouldnt say "Chara I will miss her/him"

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Luckily we don't have to think about the what if toby didn't correct it, considering he did.

True! This does not rebut my point though.

 

[Comiphorous]

True! This does not rebut my point though.

So why are you bringing up the theoretical that he didn't correct it? What are we smoking over here? Your point relies on him not correcting it even though he did.

How does this clash with it being gender neutral pronouns to make it more relatable to player,

The isn't even what the quote you're referring to said. In the interview he stated he didn't want to use the term "you" so that you could relate more. It has nothing to do with their pronouns.

Since Toby not correcting this could be interpreted as conceding,

This didn't happen.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

So why are you bringing up the theoretical that he didn't correct it? What are we smoking over here? Your point relies on him not correcting it even though he did.

The hypothetical scenario of him not answering is analyzed to present a reason to why he answered. Not because of any smoking. If he didn’t correct it, then it would be a concession to whatever pronoun it is. If the point of the game is to keep it ambiguous for the player to relate the most and any name being able to fit, this still makes sense. This means that correction does not confirm the nonbinary gender.

Not sure why you are being aggressive.

 

[Comiphorous]

The hypothetical scenario of him not answering is analyzed to present a reason to why he answered. Not because of any smoking. If he didn’t correct it, then it would be a concession to whatever pronoun it is. If the point of the game is to keep it ambiguous for the player to relate the most and any name being able to fit, this still makes sense. This means that correction does not confirm the nonbinary gender.

Yes, you're supposed to relate to frisk and hell maybe even insert yourself as them if you really wanted to...

That is until the end of the game. the whole twist (or, one of them at least...) at the end of the pacifist run is that Frisk is their own person, going out of their way to answer Asriel their own name, and is confirmed to live on the surface without you, the player, until you true reset.

Toby Fox making the player feel like you and frisk were the same person and relate to them is sorta the point of the twist where Frisk spits on all of that. Using his statements from prior to it's release that are obviously meant to make the player unsuspecting of that twist goes against what's shown in game is silly imo.

Not sure why you are being aggressive.

Think of them more as sarcastic remarks rather than aggressive remarks. At least specifically for you. You're fine. I like your general existence.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Yes, you're supposed to relate to frisk and hell maybe even insert yourself as them if you really wanted to...

That is until the end of the game. the whole twist (or, one of them at least...) at the end of the pacifist run is that Frisk is their own person, going out of their way to answer Asriel their own name, and is confirmed to live on the surface without you, the player, until you true reset.

Toby Fox making the player feel like you and frisk were the same person and relate to them is sorta the point of the twist where Frisk spits on all of that. Using his statements from prior to it's release that are obviously meant to make the player unsuspecting of that twist goes against what's shown in game is silly imo.

Not really, it was shown during Undyne hangout too, where Frisk dislikes soda, and in TP Frisk can refuse insulting some Amalgams because they become too nice atp, as well go slowly to Amalgam in the bath as scared.
Just because Frisk is his own character doesn’t mean that the premise of relatability is shattered. Frisk also completely changes depending on Player’s actions: hitting dummy on different LV shows that Frisk becomes empathetic, careless, or sadistic depending on how many you kill. Showing that Frisk directly reflects the player. Frisk is essentially our perfect vessel. I still think despite showing that meta player is canon and Frisk is not literally same as player, he is meant to be a reflection of player and almost everything about Frisk are up for player.

Think of them more as sarcastic remarks rather than aggressive remarks. At least specifically for you. You're fine. I like your general existence.

Ok lol, though usage of “existence” is a funny way to put it.

 

[Comiphorous]

It's late (goddamn four in the morning) so i'll be back to continue this, however before i leave;

Ok lol, though usage of “existence” is a funny way to put it.

I was going to write simply "i like you" but that came off wrong and weird in my head. Needed to make sure was i crystal clear on what i meant, that being your general existence. You seem generally passable to half decent at existing.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Honestly I’m kinda neutral on this one. I don’t like the implication of the MK argument that’s implying all uses of gender neutral pronouns aren’t referring to the character being non-binary, as there are a lot of characters who are either implicitly or explicitly mean to be outside the binary in some way (Napstablook, Seam, Seth, etc).

That being said, due to Frisk and Chara’s role in the narrative as pseudo stand-ins or representations of the player, I feel like it can go either way on whether they’re meant to be non-binary or just up to interpretation, especially under the assumption that MK having “no clear gender” is a paraphrased statement by Toby. If that’s just something made up or misinterpreted by the writers of the book then I’ll probably lean more to agreeing with the thread (as despite their roles in the story, it’d be weird for Frisk and Chara to just be gender ambiguous while every other character was meant to be non-binary).

TL;DR: I’m not sure if they’re meant to be gender ambiguous or non-binary, so I’m gonna stay neutral for now.