Ghost Rider (MCU) Buff

[ComicCalc]

An old thread may have nerfed Ghost Rider prematurely.

Ghost Rider should scale to Hulk
Retreat is lined with "silicon carbide coated vibranium alloy" and "can withstand a Hulk-sized force."

Although it's true that the Containment Module can adapt to powers (like melting), to say that "most sophisticated" only includes adaptability ignores the context of the scene.
"Fitz we're still good?" - Coulson to Fitz (while Ghost Rider is punching the Containment Module)
"Yeah, Yeah, Absolutely. The module's polyadaptive material is the most sophisticated compound that shield has." - Fitz to Coulson (while Ghost Rider is punching the Containment Module)

In order for Fitz's response to contextually make sense, "most sophisticated" must include durability. The immediate concern is whether the module can physically withstand Ghost Rider's punches, so Fitz's reassurance must be relevant to the module's ability to endure physical force, not merely its ability to adapt to different powers.

Seeing as how "most sophisticated" is relevant to physical force, Ghost Rider breaking out of the Containment Module therefore scales to the Retreat which scales to Hulk.

Hulk (Avenger): At least 7-A, likely 6-C

Agree: LandonTheGuy, RaikiKurohane99, Damonsqn
Disagree: Phirse

 

[ComicCalc]

Like

Can i put you down as agree?

 

[Dalesean027]

isn't AoS not even MCU canon anymore? its like not been officially recognized on their timeline that includes TV shows for a while has it not

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Can i put you down as agree?

aight

 

[ComicCalc]

isn't AoS not even MCU canon anymore? its like not been officially recognized on their timeline that includes TV shows for a while has it not

Only Season 5 onward is questionable, the feat in question happens in Season 4.

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

isn't AoS not even MCU canon anymore? its like not been officially recognized on their timeline that includes TV shows for a while has it not

Idk, but the MCU should still be canon to AoS

 

[RaikiKurohane99]

Makes sense to me.

 

[Damonsqn]

isn't AoS not even MCU canon anymore? its like not been officially recognized on their timeline that includes TV shows for a while has it not

I haven’t watched AoS, so maybe I’m not the most qualified to speak on it, but the Guidebook to the Marvel Cinematic Universe - It’s All Connected should have officially canonized it, atleast from seasons 1 to 4, but the book came out before the finale of season 5, so things may have changed.

 

[Damonsqn]

Agreed. Also, what tier is being proposed? At least 7-A, likely 6-C?

 

[Phirse]

Very iffy when it comes to interpreting statements but I don't really see a good justification to associate more sophistication with greater durability. There is no relation between them. Fitz saying it’s the most sophisticated material SHIELD has doesn’t suddenly mean it’s the strongest - it’s just him responding to Coulson’s concern in the moment and that because it was so sophisticated Ghost Rider probably won't be able to break thru it. It has zero correlation with the vibraniuam compound. It doesn't mean it's the strongest material SHIELD has. IIRC didn't the Module get blown to pieces by some inhuman explosion?

EDIT: it did.

 

[ComicCalc]

Agreed. Also, what tier is being proposed? At least 7-A, likely 6-C?

Yes

 

[ComicCalc]

Very iffy when it comes to interpreting statements but I don't really see a good justification to associate more sophistication with greater durability. There is no relation between them. Fitz saying it’s the most sophisticated material SHIELD has doesn’t suddenly mean it’s the strongest - it’s just him responding to Coulson’s concern in the moment and that because it was so sophisticated Ghost Rider probably won't be able to break thru it. It has zero correlation with the vibraniuam compound. It doesn't mean it's the strongest material SHIELD has. IIRC didn't the Module get blown to pieces by some inhuman explosion?

EDIT: it did.

"Coulson's concern in the moment" was blunt force, if sophisticated was in another sense, why would Ghost rider probably not be able to break thru it (with blunt force) due to sophistication?

Furthermore, Ghost Rider's punches rely solely on blunt force, whereas the explosion combines blunt force with thermal damage. Those are different failure mechanisms.

 

[Phirse]

"Coulson's concern in the moment" was blunt force, if sophisticated was in another sense, why would Ghost rider probably not be able to break thru it (with blunt force) due to sophistication?

Again tho this doesn't prove that it could handle more blunt force than the vibranium compound. It simply meant that the level of sophisitication was so high that fitz believed that it could take the blunt force being produced by Ghost Rider and contain the Ghost Rider. No correlation with the vibranium compound. I'm not saying that sophistication doesn't factor in it;s durability what I am saying is it being the most sophisticated doesn't then mean it's the most durable as well. It could just be the most sophisticated and super durable or the 2nd most durable material on top of being the most sophisticated. Fitz’s belief that it could withstand Ghost Rider’s punches because it was the most sophisticated doesn’t then imply it surpasses vibranium/ the vibranium compound in strength.

Furthermore, Ghost Rider's punches rely solely on blunt force, whereas the explosion combines blunt force with thermal damage. Those are different failure mechanisms.

The fact that it got blown to bits by the explosion already suggests that it is not SHIELD'S strongest material and comparable in strength to the vibranium compound. While explosions and punches are different failure mechanisms both tests of a material's structural limits which clearly exceeded the module.

 

[Phirse]

Even then upon further review, the cell that had a vibranium compound couldn't handle much brute force itself. With it's door being kicked in within an hour with an electronic battering ram iirc. So again questionable stuff, especially if Hulk couldn't break out if it? Did he even try to break out if and fail, because that is highly questionable? Or did he just temporarily transform and punch the wall, denting it, before relaxing.

 

[ComicCalc]

It simply meant that the level of sophisitication was so high that fitz believed that it could take the blunt force being produced by Ghost Rider and contain the Ghost Rider. No correlation with the vibranium compound.

If sophistication inspires blunt force resistance confidence, then it is directly relevant to blunt-force durability in this scene.

I'm not saying that sophistication doesn't factor in it;s durability what I am saying is it being the most sophisticated doesn't then mean it's the most durable as well. It could just be the most sophisticated and super durable or the 2nd most durable material on top of being the most sophisticated. Fitz’s belief that it could withstand Ghost Rider’s punches because it was the most sophisticated doesn’t then imply it surpasses vibranium/ the vibranium compound in strength.

If you're "not saying sophistication doesn't factor into durability," then why are you treating sophistication as relevant enough for Fitz to rely on it when Ghost Rider is punching the module, yet irrelevant when comparing SHIELD materials.

---

The fact that it got blown to bits by the explosion already suggests that it is not SHIELD'S strongest material and comparable in strength to the vibranium compound. While explosions and punches are different failure mechanisms both tests of a material's structural limits which clearly exceeded the module.

Blunt force and heat test different material structural limits. For example, steel can withstand enormous compressive loads but loses much of its strength when heated to high temperatures. A material failing under heat doesn't mean it would fail under the same amount of blunt force, or vice versa.

---

Even then upon further review, the cell that had a vibranium compound couldn't handle much brute force itself. With it's door being kicked in within an hour with an electronic battering ram iirc. So again questionable stuff, especially if Hulk couldn't break out if it? Did he even try to break out if and fail, because that is highly questionable? Or did he just temporarily transform and punch the wall, denting it, before relaxing.

vibranium compound "can withstand a Hulk-sized force." and has here.

 

[Phirse]

vibranium compound "can withstand a Hulk-sized force." and has here.

Again this doesn't address the point that the retreat is breached by an electronic battering ram, which would have had to be outputting nukes worth of energy to break it if you want to scale it 7c.

If sophistication inspires blunt force resistance confidence, then it is directly relevant to blunt-force durability in this scene

It doesn't have to be? How are you drawing that conclusion? Sure it's relevant to blunt force durability but there's nothing suggesting that is directly equivalent. Again it says the most sophisticated not the most durable, which is what you are somehow reading off here.

If you're "not saying sophistication doesn't factor into durability," then why are you treating sophistication as relevant enough for Fitz to rely on it when Ghost Rider is punching the module, yet irrelevant when comparing SHIELD materials

Because it doesn't have to. Sophistication is how complicated something is. An f3 car is more sophisticated than an amoured truck yet one is clearly more durable. It being so complicated was what gave him the confidence that it could contain Ghost Rider. The vibranium compound is less sophisticated, simple as. There's nothing to suggest that it's less durable.

Blunt force and heat test different material structural limits. For example, steel can withstand enormous compressive loads but loses much of its strength when heated to high temperatures. A material failing under heat doesn't mean it would fail under the same amount of blunt force, or vice versa.

Okay, doesn't change the fact that something apparently more durable than the vibranium compound was blown apart if you really want to say most sophisticated equates to most durable, whilst the supposedly less durable vibranium compound credited with withstanding hulk level forces which should mean that the material should be capable be withstanding up to 7c of energy, equivalent to the energy released by nukes.Which would generate high enough temperature to destroy it.

 

[ComicCalc]

Again this doesn't address the point that the retreat is breached by an electronic battering ram, which would have had to be outputting nukes worth of energy to break it if you want to scale it 7c.

The battering ram breaching the retreat in an hour doesn't negate the Hulk statement. Coulson explicitly presents both facts as true in the same breath:

"It may not look like it, but this place was built to withstand a hulk-size force.
[Thud]
[Sighs]
On the other hand, let's just hope they didn't bring a...
[crash]
... battering ram, 'cause then we've only got about an hour."

It doesn't have to be? How are you drawing that conclusion? Sure it's relevant to blunt force durability but there's nothing suggesting that is directly equivalent. Again it says the most sophisticated not the most durable, which is what you are somehow reading off here.

Because it doesn't have to. Sophistication is how complicated something is. An f3 car is more sophisticated than an amoured truck yet one is clearly more durable. It being so complicated was what gave him the confidence that it could contain Ghost Rider. The vibranium compound is less sophisticated, simple as. There's nothing to suggest that it's less durable.

If "sophisticated" only meant "complicated" in this scene, why would that reassure Coulson that the module could contain Ghost Rider?

Imagine you own both an F3 car and an armored truck, and we're sitting in the F3. A thief tries to break in by punching the car and I ask, "Are we still good?"
You respond, "Absolutely, this is the most sophisticated car I own."

Is "sophisticated" referring to:
A) The car's ability to protect us from the attack.
B) The car simply being more technologically advanced or complicated.
C) Something else? (Explain.)

Okay, doesn't change the fact that something apparently more durable than the vibranium compound was blown apart if you really want to say most sophisticated equates to most durable, whilst the supposedly less durable vibranium compound credited with withstanding hulk level forces which should mean that the material should be capable be withstanding up to 7c of energy, equivalent to the energy released by nukes.Which would generate high enough temperature to destroy it.

Punch = Kinetic Energy
Explosion = Kinetic Energy + Thermal Energy
What's in question right now is Kinetic Energy. The inhuman explosion, which not only fragmented, but also burned and melted the containment module, doesn't say how much Kinetic Energy alone it can withstand.

 

[Lilybitdun]

Agree: LandonTheGuy, RaikiKurohane99, Damonsqn

Just so you know RaikiKurohane99 doesn't count as a staff vote. Only thread mods, admins, and bureaucrats count as staff votes
Translation Helper is still regular vote

 

[Phirse]

The battering ram breaching the retreat in an hour doesn't negate the Hulk statement. Coulson explicitly presents both facts as true in the same breath:

"It may not look like it, but this place was built to withstand a hulk-size force.
[Thud]
[Sighs]
On the other hand, let's just hope they didn't bring a...
[crash]
... battering ram, 'cause then we've only got about an hour."

Again, this doesn’t address the actual point: if you want to scale the retreat’s durability to “Hulk‑size force”, what may be a hyperbole, in the 7‑C range, then the electronic battering ram would have needed to output to nuke tier energy to breach it, which isn't supported in the show or in the wider MCU which you are you trying to scale of.

To add to this what does hulk size force refer to as hulk does n't exert his full strength all the time. Also being designed to do something doesn't necessarily mean it cam accomplish it. The only hint we get it can is the dent on the walls but again there's no telling if he relaxed or not and only threw one punch or that he failed to break through.

If "sophisticated" only meant "complicated" in this scene, why would that reassure Coulson that the module could contain Ghost Rider?

Because it's cutting edge technology? If a thief is trying to break into say your tesla and the passenger asks 'are we good' and you say yh this is the most sophisticated car I have due to say a biometric scanner or something that won't then make it stronger or more durable than the amoured truck. The sophistication is what gives him confidence it can take on Ghost Rider which may hint at some level of high durability but does not assert that it is the most durable

So yes I would say Sophistication is referring to B here.

Punch = Kinetic Energy
Explosion = Kinetic Energy + Thermal Energy
What's in question right now is Kinetic Energy. The inhuman explosion, which not only fragmented, but also burned and melted the containment module, doesn't say how much Kinetic Energy alone it can withstand.

And kinetic energy gets transferred to thermal energy, if the guy is hitting at mountain level then it shouldn't be taking multiple punches to break through a containment module that got blown to pieces by an explosion that doesn't release energy even a fraction of a nuke's. Unless the module has a specific weakness to heat which there's no reason to believe.

 

[Excellence616]

Do we even know the timelines activities of AOS and it's connections to Avengers timeline activities I.e what season of agent of shield did the snap happen?

The only aspect I could remember was when Coluson made a statement about bringing in the Avengers (season 2 ending. Can't remember correctly tho) and AOS happening after the Battle of New York.

 

[ComicCalc]

Do we even know the timelines activities of AOS and it's connections to Avengers timeline activities I.e what season of agent of shield did the snap happen?

The only aspect I could remember was when Coluson made a statement about bringing in the Avengers (season 2 ending. Can't remember correctly tho) and AOS happening after the Battle of New York.

Season 5: Episodes 19 - 22
- These 4 episodes run concurrently/mention events that happen in Infinity War, the writers of the show were given a rough timeline of the film and tried to end Episode 22 moments before the Snap
Season 6
- takes place a year after Infinity War but doesn't mention it's events