Debunking Ergenverse 1-A rating

[XuQingXiYi]

Brother, the endless Dimensions are just part of the 下行 Saturn Ring, or even not equal to the entire 下行 Saturn Ring. The Saturn Ring consists of the 下行 Saturn Ring plus the 上行 Saturn Ring.

Wait no actually these dimensions aren't the dimensions u think they are. Chinese raws do u use the word for spatial dimensions, but deathblade writes an explanation that it is supposed to be purely cosmological, here it is:

To reiterate the information from a few chapters ago, the Chinese character here can be interpreted many ways. The most common, in modern times, is ‘dimension,’ and later on, the author will even reference that ‘dimension’ meaning obliquely in certain wordplay and narrative elements. But the author’s explanation in this chapter makes it clear that he intends for this word to be more akin to the deep metaphorical/theological/cosmological definition of the word as it pertains to Chinese philosophy and belief systems. In terms of English, you can find information about ontology here. However, the meaning (both in Chinese and English), is devised by and explained by the author, and isn’t exactly what the dictionary definition is. ☜

 

[Rahulkale12c]

So the verse is currently rated as 1-A due to Essence and "spatial dimensions" discussed in ISSTH and AWE. I will attempt to debunk that notion with reason below(This is my first thread in vs battles so please go easy on me if I am erred in anything ).





Essence of Space(ISSTH):

Scan 1: This supposedly mentions dimensions of space, but it says each of them are different size, how do you get dimensions themselves being of different sizes when they are unquantifiable.

Scan 2: This just straight up says that length, breadth, height makes up these spaces. It does not get past 3D. It says this is only a portion of space so u all might believe that the missing part is the higher dimensions but nothing like that is discussed and it was the essence of space that completed what space actually is.

Scan 3: Although this scan may show that a 2d circle becomes a 3d sphere with an additional thread, that is just changing the flat configuration of the circle which is incomplete to a complete system or a world. Meng hao couldn't even make anything beyond the sphere and was surprised that he could even make a world.


Here is a scan from beyond timescape that shows that the true form of former god paragon(11th step) is in a three dimensional form, the whole chapter is xu qing chasing de luozi(same guy) through time travel. Extra scan


Essence(AWE):
Awe Scan : The only parts that actually stand out is that Essence takes up no space, but simultaneously create and contain all of space and essence being outside of time and creating and containing all of time. So essence taking up no space and containing all of it just means it is outside of the space that was shown which is 3d space and contains all of it. Essence being outside of time yet containing all of time just means it is beyond the standard and conventional time. So overall, Essence is just law in a way, 4th step controls the law of reality in a bounded region(Vast Expanse) so they are just normal reality warpers. 3rd steps comprehend essences and can be partial reality warpers depending on how many essences they've comprehended.

Now I will try to go for the proposed tiers starting from vast expanse to Saturn Ring:

Vast Expanse:
There is not much to add here as it has already been discussed that the Vast Expanse contains infinite amounts of universes so it would get a 2-A rating.
True Universe:
This was also made in the past that the Vast Expanse is a nigh-infinitesimal speck compared to the True Universe's Size so I believe that this Universe is qualitatively larger than the vast Expanse which would give it a L1-C rating.
Scan used for bottom tiersAwwp scan
Star Domain: If we consider the Great Universe(True Universe) and Vast Expanse ratio to be a +1D difference then this would apply to the Star Domain as well giving it a 1-C rating
Dao Domain: This should be 1-C as well due to the reason above.
Saturn Ring: H1-C for containing infinite amount of Dao Domains.

TLDR:
Vast Expanse: 2-A
True Universe:L1-C
Star Domain: 1-C
Dao Domain: 1-C
Saturn Ring: H1-C
Agree: @Vesxpura
Neutral: @Eseseso
Disagree: @FriendOfTheTeaParty[/U[/B]
[/QUOTE]

The screenshots aren't loading for me, so that should be fixed. As for the arguments themselves.

The first argument doesn't really make any sense. The scene itself has the dimensions he senses cover the entire Vast Expanse, so they'd be significantly sized regardless. That's something the blog itself mentions as well.

The second just seems like a non-sequitur. Of course, space has length, breadth and width. That doesn't really negate the countless other dimensions that get mentioned from existing, it just seems like a misunderstanding of how we treat dimensions at all.

The third scan itself doesn't really mean anything cause Meng Hao only comprehended a part of the Essence of Space temporarily through the Eighth Hex and could only use it in a limited manner in that battle. The point is to show those dimensions exist, not that Ancient Realm Meng Hao could manipulate them to his own without issue. Him being surprised then makes sense.

Now you are semi-correct about them being physical. Ancestor Realm (4th Step) cultivators have an entire Vast Expanse equivalent Realm within their "bodies" (which are just vessels for their Essence) but they do have antifeats for 1-A due to their physical forms existing within the same level of reality more or less.

The point on A Will Eternal is just, meaningless. You seem to just assert your interpretation of Essence contrary to the rest of that scene (which outright says Essence is beyond any place or shape at all) with nothing but well, vibes.

I'd support a downgrade to like, High 1-B for 4th Step, and maybe Low 1-A for 5th Step for seeing space-time as illusory. Subsequent Steps could have a dimensional difference via the gap between realms being stated to get bigger in like, every single book. That said I haven't yet finished Beyond Time so maybe this gets contradicted, so I cannot say for sure.

Oh yeah, here's the blog on the verse page for anyone to read.

I don't have nearly as much time as I used to for the verse, so I'll just say this much and probably won't post more and will go with whatever's decided.

Essence is not Tier 1-A merely because the verse contains "countless" or "infinite" dimensions. Those dimensions are represented by the threads, which Meng Hao realizes are dimensional spaces rather than natural laws. The threads are the very components that construct spatial extension, including length, width, height, size, and any further axis additions. In other words, axis addition itself is simply a property of these dimensional threads.
The Essence of Space is stated to be the origin, source, and foundation of all space. Bai Xiaochun later explains that Essence takes up no space while simultaneously creating and containing all space, and exists outside time while creating and containing all time. Therefore, Essence is not another higher-dimensional layer within the system of axes, it is qualitatively beyond the entire dimensional framework from which those axes arise.
Since every additional spatial axis is only another manifestation of the dimensional threads, and those threads themselves derive from the Essence of Space, Essence transcends the entire process of axis addition rather than simply exceeding a finite or infinite number of dimensions. Infinite dimensions only demonstrate the extent of the spatial framework that Essence underlies they are not the reason Essence is argued to be 1-A. The reason is that Essence stands outside and is the conceptual source of the complete dimensional structure itself.


The argument was never about infinite dimensions. The "countless" or "infinite" dimensional threads are only evidence showing what the Essence of Space governs. The actual reason Essence is argued to transcend the dimensional framework is that it is described as the origin, source, and foundation of all space, while simultaneously taking up no space and creating and containing all space. The dimensional threads are simply the components that make up spatial extension and axis addition. Since Essence exists prior to and gives rise to those threads, it qualitatively transcends the entire system of dimensional axes. Therefore, the 1-A interpretation is based on Essence transcending the framework that generates all dimensions, not on the verse merely having infinite dimensions.

And You're misunderstanding the scaling.

It isn't High 1-B, because the argument was never "there are infinite dimensions." The dimensional threads are simply the components that make up space and axis addition. Infinite or countless dimensions only describe the scope of the spatial framework, not the tier.

It also isn't Low 1-A if the argument is based solely on "being beyond dimensions." The novel never says Essence is just another entity that transcends dimensions. Instead, it describes Essence as the origin, source, and foundation of all space and time. Bai Xiaochun explicitly states that Essence takes up no space while creating and containing all space, and exists outside time while creating and containing all time.

That's why the argument is for 1-A. Essence isn't a higher-dimensional object or something that merely surpasses dimensions. It is the underlying principle from which the entire dimensional framework including every spatial thread and every axis derives. The dimensional threads are effects of Essence, not the reason for its tier. The tier comes from Essence being the fundamental source and basis of the entire spatial framework, not from the existence of infinite dimensions.

 

[Vesxpura]

Instead, it describes Essence as the origin, source, and foundation of all space and time. Bai Xiaochun explicitly states that Essence takes up no space while creating and containing all space, and exists outside time while creating and containing all time.

thats still low 1-A bro.
also what u said about essence doesnt align with what 1-A is. so it really does cap at L1-A.

 

[Rahulkale12c]

thats still low 1-A bro.
also what u said about essence doesnt align with what 1-A is. so it really does cap at L1-A.

I'm not arguing 1-A because Essence is merely the source of dimensions. The FAQ itself says being the source of dimensions alone isn't enough.

My argument is based on the nature of Essence. The novel repeatedly describes it as the origin and foundation of existence, more fundamental than natural laws, having no form, no place, no spatial extension, and no temporal existence, while simultaneously creating and containing all form, place, space, and time.

So My argument isn't based on Essence being a concept alone.

The current 1-A definition requires a qualitatively different mode of existence that cannot be reached through any quantitative extension of lower reality.

Essence is described as the foundation and source of all existence, more fundamental than natural laws, with no form, no place, no space, and no time, while simultaneously creating and containing all forms, places, spaces, and time.

The dimensional threads are merely manifestations of spatial structure. Essence is the ontological framework from which that entire structure derives. Since it is not part of the dimensional hierarchy but the principle underlying it, extending, stacking, or uniting lower-dimensional structures cannot reach Essence.

So my argument for 1-A is based on the nature of Essence's existence, not on infinite dimensions or on being the source of dimensions alone.


The FAQ says 1-A depends on qualitative superiority and the nature of existence, not just causal power. So the source-of-dimensions argument is only supporting evidence. The main question is whether those descriptions establish an ontologically superior mode of existence.

If you think they don't, which specific part of the 1-A definition do they fail to satisfy?


As for low 1A I don't think Low 1-A is the best fit because Low 1-A is still fundamentally describing the totality of dimensional structures (the collection of all possible dimensional spaces).

My argument isn't that Essence encompasses every possible dimension. It's that Essence isn't part of that framework at all.

The novel consistently describes Essence as having no form, no place, no space, and no time, while simultaneously being the foundation from which all of those arise. That's an ontological claim about what Essence is, not just how large its influence is.

So the dimensional hierarchy isn't something Essence sits above in terms of scale it's something that exists because of Essence. If the dimensional framework itself is a manifestation of Essence, then adding every possible dimensional space together still doesn't reach Essence, because you're only expanding what Essence already underlies.

That's why I don't think this is just Low 1-A. The argument is based on qualitative ontology, not on the totality of dimensions.

 

[Vesxpura]

If you think they don't, which specific part of the 1-A definition do they fail to satisfy?

the actual qualitative superiority part. all you did was establish how essence is the source of all things and doesnt participate in those things, thats low 1-A, cool. but you dont establish how the transcendence of essence is coessential with its nature. which is what 1-A is. not just saying it has a "qualitative ontology"

 

[Rahulkale12c]

the actual qualitative superiority part. all you did was establish how essence is the source of all things and doesnt participate in those things, thats low 1-A, cool. but you dont establish how the transcendence of essence is coessential with its nature. which is what 1-A is. not just saying it has a "qualitative ontology"

I think you're drawing a distinction the novel itself doesn't make.

You're treating Essence's ontology and its role as the source of reality as two separate things, but the text presents them as inseparable.

The novel first defines what Essence is: it has no form, no place, no space, no time, no beginning or end, while simultaneously containing and giving rise to all of those.

Those are ontological statements, not just descriptions of what Essence can do.

Then it identifies Essence as the Dao itself the basis and foundation of all existence, more fundamental than natural laws.

So Essence doesn't transcend reality because it happens to create it. Rather, it creates reality because its very nature is ontologically prior to every category that constitutes reality. Space, time, form, and laws are all dependent expressions of Essence, while Essence is not dependent on any of them.

That's why I think the transcendence is coessential with its nature. The source-function isn't separate from Essence's ontology; it's a consequence of that ontology.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

I Shall Scam The Heaven.

I still remember Meng Hao's fleshly body, can be 1-A anti-feat. Low 1-A also sound better.

 

[Rahulkale12c]

I Shall Scam The Heaven.

I still remember Meng Hao's fleshly body, can be 1-A anti-feat. Low 1-A also sound better

I don't think Meng Hao's fleshly body is automatically an anti-feat.



The FAQ distinguishes between interacting with a higher reality through metaphysical means and physically reaching it through lower-tier power. Meng Hao doesn't brute-force his way to Essence through dimensional escalation; he comprehends and cultivates Essence itself. The novel consistently presents Essence as something realized through enlightenment and Dao comprehension, not through quantitative increases in power.



If Essence is accepted as a qualitatively higher ontological principle, then Meng Hao's interaction with it comes from participating in that higher metaphysical framework, not because a lower-tier physical body somehow reached a 1-A level through its own power.



So whether it's an anti-feat depends on how the cultivation process is interpreted, not simply on the fact that Meng Hao has a physical body.



And I don't think merely having a physical body is an anti-feat.



The current FAQ doesn't say that having a body disqualifies a character from 1-A. It says the issue is whether a supposedly 1-A entity can be reduced to, reached by, or quantified through lower reality.



If Meng Hao's body is simply the manifestation or vessel through which he interacts after comprehending Essence, that isn't automatically an anti-feat. Plenty of verses have metaphysical beings that still manifest avatars or bodies.



So can you point to the specific FAQ passage that says "having a body" alone contradicts 1-A? Because I don't think the standards say that.



The "Meng Hao still has a fleshly body, so it's an anti-feat" argument doesn't really work.



The novel says:


"With my cultivation base and my fleshly body both in Transcendence... my soul... will step into Transcendence! At that time, I will truly be in the Daosource Realm."



Notice that the body itself isn't the goal. His cultivation base, body, and soul all have to complete Transcendence before he can become a Daosource.


Immediately after, the novel explains what that means:


"I will truly be in the Daosource Realm. That is because I will be the source of the Dao, an Essence. What I wish to be natural law, will exist. Whatever magical laws I don't approve of, will not exist."



His identity is no longer "a man with a powerful body." His identity becomes the Source of the Dao an Essence itself.


This is also consistent with the later descriptions of Essence:


Essence has no form or shape, yet creates and contains every form.

Essence has no beginning or end, yet creates and contains all beginnings and endings.

Essence occupies no space, yet creates and contains all space.

Essence exists outside time, yet creates and contains all time.

Essence exists in no particular place, yet creates and contains every place.

Those descriptions are literally describing something that is not defined by physical form, location, space, or time.

In simple Those are ontological statements, not just descriptions of what Essence can do.

Then it identifies Essence as the Dao itself the basis and foundation of all existence, more fundamental than natural laws.

So Essence doesn't transcend reality because it happens to create it. Rather, it creates reality because its very nature is ontologically prior to every category that constitutes reality. Space, time, form, and laws are all dependent expressions of Essence, while Essence is not dependent on any of them.

So they Exist as Sources of Dao and are Essences unto themselves though they normally interact with the world using a physical body.
So they Act through physical bodies mostly, which are manifestations of their Daos.


So the body isn't their true existence. It's simply the manifestation through which an Essence/Daosource acts.



If having a manifested body were automatically an anti-feat, then the novel and the cultivation page wouldn't simultaneously describe Fourth Steps as Essences, Daosources so its Abstract Existence Type 1, and beings that exist beyond time and space.

So the existence of a fleshly body doesn't refute their abstract nature. You would need evidence that the body is their true ontological existence.

 

[Vesxpura]

it's a consequence of that ontology.

you dont prove this tho. just because its making claims about its nature and says that its the foundation of all things or whatever, doesnt mean that that nature is the source of the gap between the two and its transcendence.

but the text presents them as inseparable.

no it doesnt, you dont show any of this. priority doesnt entail indivisibility.

 

[Rahulkale12c]

you dont prove this tho. just because its making claims about its nature and says that its the foundation of all things or whatever, doesnt mean that that nature is the source of the gap between the two and its transcendence.

no it doesnt, you dont show any of this. priority doesnt entail indivisibility.

I think you're mixing up lower reality with Essence itself.

I'm not arguing "Essence is 1-A because it's the foundation of everything."

The point is that the foundation belongs to lower reality, not to Essence itself.

The novel describes Essence as:

Having no form, yet containing all forms.
Having no space, yet containing all space.
Existing outside time, yet containing all time.
Existing in no place, yet containing all places.

Those aren't descriptions of what Essence does they're descriptions of what Essence is.

So don't confuse the framework that Essence establishes with Essence itself.

Space, time, form, place, natural laws, and all phenomena are the lower framework that depends on Essence.

Essence itself is described as not being bound by form, space, time, or place while simultaneously grounding and containing them.

That's why my argument isn't based on "Essence is the foundation." It's based on the fact that Essence itself exists independently of the framework it establishes.

You're arguing against the causal claim ("it's the source"), while my argument is about the ontological claim ("it's not part of the system it creates"). Those are two different arguments.


In simple You're confusing the source with the things it creates.

Yes, Essence is the source of space, time, form, and place.

But the novel also says Essence itself has no space, no time, no form, and no place.

So Essence creates that framework, but isn't bound by that framework.

That's the ontological difference.

The created reality is bound by space, time, form, and place.

Essence is not. It exists independently of those things while they depend on it.

That's my point. I'm not arguing "source is 1-A." I'm arguing that Essence is fundamentally different from what it creates because it isn't bound by the framework it establishes.

And this is also why I don't think it's just a generic Low 1-A argument. Low 1-A can come from simply being beyond dimensions. My argument is different: Essence isn't merely beyond dimensional structures it is described as existing independently of the very categories (form, space, time, and place) that define lower reality. That's why I interpret it as an ontological distinction rather than just dimensional transcendence.

Main point :

The Essence is not just the source.

If it were only the source, I'd agree that isn't enough.

The novel also defines what Essence is: it has no form, no space, no time, and no place, while all of those things come from it.

So Essence isn't just creating the framework it isn't bound by the framework it creates.

That's the distinction I'm making.

I'm not arguing from "source." I'm arguing from Essence's own nature, which the novel describes as fundamentally different from the reality that depends on it.

 

[XuQingXiYi]

I should have asked for this to be closed long ago, 1-A still stays, this can be open if people wanna discuss whether essence fits Low 1A or 1A better.