Genshin Impact – Changes For Ley Lines Manipulation and Fate Manipulation Users

[MSahla]

Introduction

Hello folks (), it's time to update something from the Ley Lines Manipulation. It's gonna be a long one, so enjoy reading.

Elements and Ley Lines

The Seven Elements, or the modern form of Elemental Energy in Teyvat are the building blocks of the world created by the Heavenly Principles from Phlogiston—one of the most primordial form of Elemental Energies, to develop a power better to counter against the Abyss. When they first arrived in Teyvat, they usurped and refashioned the whole world according to their design, and thus the world was made anew.

The Ley Lines are the roots of Irminsul and also a network of elemental energy and memories of everything that has lived in Teyvat, both on the surface and down into the Abyss. Ley Lines and Irminsul have existed in Teyvat since the era of the Dragons, which is before the arrival of the Heavenly Principles, although they did not have the same purpose that they did now and instead had Teyvat's primal elemental energies flowing through, or simply known as the power of the Light Realm.

After the Heavenly Principles' arrival and subsequent conquering of Teyvat, the Ley Lines and Irminsul were modified into "a girdle that defends the planet" as well as "the anchor of fate". They were also remade to record all information, knowledge and memories of the land. Hence why the Irminsul, which is the core of all Ley Lines, has all information, knowledge and memories of the world, which also why the Ley Lines also said to be remember everything that happens in the world because they basically records everything including the world's most fundamental information.

Any changes within the Ley Lines or even the core of it, which is Irminsul, would also change the whole world as Caribert said. Altering the Irminsul would made the whole world enter a new reality, such as when one's erased theyself from the Irminsul. This proves that the Irminsul and Ley Lines are not merely repositories of information. The information stored within them acts as the underlying framework upon which Teyvat's history and reality are constructed. Altering that information causes the world itself to rewrite and reorganize accordingly, making the information fundamental to existence.

Ability Change: CM2 → IM1&2

Currently, we have Conceptual Manipulation Type 2 for the Ley Lines Manipulation for the following reason/justification:

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2; Elemental Power is the building blocks of the world and the impetus of many phenomenas and manifestations across it and Leyline are conceptual networks that spread throughout the world. Caribert also explains that reweaving the leyline will change the entire world)

Well, it does sounds like a Conceptual Manipulation at first due to this scan, but it's not enough for CM2, and this should be Information Manipulation Both Types instead.

Let's see Both Types for IM:

1. Knowledge: These characters can manipulate information as the medium of knowledge as opposed to just manipulating what a specific person knows, which would be considered Mind Manipulation. Characters with this ability can, for example, destroy information on a subject and by that make it inherently unknowable. Other examples of uses would be to prevent information from leaving an area, making it so that those outside can't gain knowledge of what is happening inside, or altering information to change what people know about the subject into something else.

2. Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information that serves as a fundamental building block of reality. This information is shown to compose reality similar to how data underlies a video game world, code defines the rules of a simulation or in a fashion equally fundamental to these examples. This may allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. The ability can come on many levels of potency. The possible uses range from being the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities to rewriting information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.

For IM1, the best examples we have is Wanderer erasing himself from Irminsul, and Nahida erasing Rukkhadevata from Irminsul. Thus, the world completely forgot about both of them.

But, I don't think those are only IM1 since Nahida explicitly said

“If someone were to successfully erase themselves from Irminsul, the world would change to reflect the new reality”

A good way to think about this is:

• Type 1: Change the information → people know something different.
• Type 2: Change the information → reality becomes different.

Irminsul/Ley Lines demonstrates both effects, which goes basically again:

1. Everyone forgot them (Type 1 effect)
2. Records changed (Type 1 effect)
3. The world reconstructed history to explain their absences and change to reflect the new reality (Type 2 effect)

So, Irminsul and Ley Lines are reality-defining informational framework whose alteration rewrites the world's causal structure, and also govern information, knowledge and memories of the world, which should be qualify for both types of Information Manipulation:

Other examples of uses would be to prevent information from leaving an area, making it so that those outside can't gain knowledge of what is happening inside, or altering information to change what people know about the subject into something else

The possible uses range from being the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities to rewriting information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.

Speaking of "World's Causal Structure" We have to move to another section:

New Abilities

We should give Fate Manipulation and Causality Manipulation through Ley Lines Manipulation, for this specifict reason:

After the Heavenly Principles' arrival and subsequent conquering of Teyvat, the Ley Lines and Irminsul were modified into "a girdle that defends the planet" as well as "the anchor of fate".

There is also a thing called "Constellation" that also controls fate (past, present, and future) of all beings, and Irminsul/Ley Lines is that anchor.

If the Irminsul/Ley Lines is the anchor of fate itself, then constellations are downstream manifestations of information already rooted within Irminsul/Ley Lines. Therefore, anchoring fate necessarily entails anchoring the constellation system that reflects that fate.

The stars of Teyvat are closely intertwined with the concept of fate, and Constellations are an extension of this. The stars of constellations are likened to strings by which the Heavenly Principles puppeteer the mortals of the Human Realm. Causality is irreversibly attached to fate, and whatever fate changes will also alter the cause and effect.

Regarding Causality Manipulation

Causality Manipulation through Fate Manipulation was accepted here but only Limited due to lack of context. But now that we got more context, I think I'll just propose it in this very thread to erase that Limited for the Causality Manipulation.

In the recent Archon Quest, the Ruler of Life Naberius said that Irminsul, or Ley Lines, are the beginning of the chain of cause and effect. When she said "planting a seed," She's referring to the Irminsul and the Ley Lines, because Naberius was talking about Nahida who was about to burn the Irminsul, and since Nahida is the "great tree", or basically the new Irminsul (because she was born from the Irminsul's purest branch), so they don't need to worry about the lost of another tree (Irminsul).

All that proves that Fate and Cause and Effect are indeed intertwined, because through Irminsul and Ley Lines are the beginning of the chain of cause and effect, and they're also the anchor of fate, which should also connected to the Constellation. And therefore, the Limited for Causality Manipulation through Fate Manipulatiom should be gone hushh hushh..

Conclusion

In conclusion, Irminsul and the Ley Lines qualify for both types of Information Manipulation:

1. Type 1 because they store and govern knowledge, memories, records, and historical information. Altering the information within them can erase knowledge, modify records, and cause individuals to be forgotten by the world.
2. Type 2 because the information contained within them is fundamental to reality itself. Changes to Irminsul do not merely affect what people know; they cause the world to rewrite and reorganize its history to remain consistent with the altered information. Wanderer's erasure demonstrates this, as reality reconstructed a new causal history around his absence, and Nahida specifically said the world would change to reflect the new reality. And thus, making their role as a fundamental informational framework underlying reality, fate, and causality with the fact that Irminsul and Ley Lines are the anchor of the fate of the world, and fate are intertwined with cause and effect.

This should be the new look of the new abilities for Ley Lines Manipulation to replace its CM2:

Fate Manipulation, Causality Manipulation & Information Manipulation (Both Types; The Ley Lines are the roots of Irminsul and also a network of elemental energy and memories of everything that has lived in Teyvat. The Seven Elements, or the modern form of Elemental Energy in Teyvat are the building blocks of the world created by the Heavenly Principles. The Ley Lines and Irminsul were modified by the Heavenly Principles into "a girdle that defends the planet" as well as "the anchor of fate" which should be connected to the Constellation—The stars of Teyvat are closely intertwined with the concept of fate, and Constellations are an extension of this. The stars of constellations are likened to strings by which the Heavenly Principles puppeteer the mortals of the Human Realm. Causality is irreversibly attached to fate, and whatever fate changes will also alter the cause and effect. The Irminsul and Ley Lines were also remade to record all information, knowledge and memories of the land. Hence why the Irminsul, which is the core of all Ley Lines, has all information, knowledge and memories of the world, and that is why Ley Lines are also said to remember everything that happens in the world because they record everything, including the most fundamental information of the world. Any changes within the Ley Lines or even the core of it, which is Irminsul, would also change the whole world as Caribert said. Altering the information within them causes the world itself to rewrite and reorganize accordingly, making the information fundamental to existence, such as when one's erased themself from the Irminsul, the world would enter a whole new reality)

(Long ahh justification)

This would also change Nahida and Wanderer's Information Erasure's Type 1 to Both Types, and the latter (Wanderer) should also get Ley Lines Manipulation but of course it would be Limited for him.

Edit: As for CM2, that's the staff's decision to keep it or not.

---

T L D R:

1. Change the Ley Lines Manipulation's Conceptual Manipulation Type 2 to → Both Types of Information Manipulation instead.
2. Giving Fate Manipulation and Causality Manipulation to Ley Lines Manipulation.
3. Removing ‘Limited’ for Causality Manipulation on every Fate Manipulation users;
   • Descender Physiology
   • Raiden Shogun
   • Columbina
   • Nibelung
   • Rhinedottir
   • Citlali
   • Nahida

And that's it for today's agenda, gamers.

---

Agreed: Oblivion_Of_The_Endless - Vietthai96 - ActuallySpaceMan42
Furina003 (the rest) - AsterReal - Mbpoops - Astral_Trinity439 - RaikiKurohane99 - InfiOthinus - HaonShiney (the rest)


Neutral:


Disagree:
Furina003 (CM2 removal) - HaonShiney (same with Furina)

 

[Furina003]

I do not agree with the removal of Conceptual Manipulation Type 2, although I do agree with the addition of Information Manipulation Types 1 and 2

In my view, manipulating the Ley Lines can indeed qualify for both Conceptual Manipulation and Information Manipulation, but it is important to distinguish between the Ley Line network itself and the information stored or flowing within it.

To make my point clearer, I will use the analogy of an electrical network. The electrical cables can be compared to concepts, while the electricity flowing through them can be compared to information, knowledge, and memories. Manipulating the cables directly will affect the flow of electricity, but manipulating the electricity itself does not necessarily alter or damage the structure of the cables.

The same principle applies to the Ley Lines. As stated in the existing scans, the Ley Lines are a conceptual network that underpins the world. Altering or directly manipulating the Ley Line network can affect the entire world and, at the same time, modify the information contained within it. In contrast, the information within the Ley Lines is merely a metaphysical aspect that flows through that network.

Therefore, simply manipulating the information contained within the Ley Lines should not automatically grant Ley Line Manipulation or Conceptual Manipulation, because only the content is being manipulated, not the conceptual structure that serves as its foundation. However, directly manipulating the Ley Line network itself would affect both aspects simultaneously, the information flowing through it and the concepts that constitute the network, because the Ley Lines are fundamentally a conceptual framework that serves as the medium through which that information exists and flows.

 

[AsterReal]

It looks good.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Whatever a cable has to do with CM2…

 

[MSahla]

The same principle applies to the Ley Lines. As stated in the existing scans, the Ley Lines are a conceptual network that underpins the world. Altering or directly manipulating the Ley Line network can affect the entire world and, at the same time, modify the information contained within it. In contrast, the information within the Ley Lines is merely a metaphysical aspect that flows through that network.

Therefore, simply manipulating the information contained within the Ley Lines should not automatically grant Ley Line Manipulation or Conceptual Manipulation, because only the content is being manipulated, not the conceptual structure that serves as its foundation. However, directly manipulating the Ley Line network itself would affect both aspects simultaneously, the information flowing through it and the concepts that constitute the network, because the Ley Lines are fundamentally a conceptual framework that serves as the medium through which that information exists and flows.

The "conceptual network" alone isn't enough Conceptual Manipulation, but it can be supporting evidence instead. A CM argument would require proving that the Ley Lines directly contain and govern concepts themselves and that altering the Ley Lines changes those concepts rather than merely the information associated with them.

But, that's the staff's decision to keep the CM2 or not.

 

[Furina003]

The "conceptual network" alone isn't enough Conceptual Manipulation, but it can be supporting evidence instead. A CM argument would require proving that the Ley Lines directly contain and govern concepts themselves and that altering the Ley Lines changes those concepts rather than merely the information associated with them.

But, that's the staff's decision to keep the CM2 or not.

Okay, let's leave it to the staff, but I will emphasize one thing and hope the staff will consider this.

It's not enough to have no evidence that it's a fundamental concept, while leylines are a fundamental concept, not merely a nominalist one, because they've been proven to support fundamental aspects of reality.

Manipulating information is only achieved when someone specifically manipulates information, specifically the information contained within a leyline, not the leyline itself. Because leylines aren't information; they're fundamental concepts.

If you say manipulating a concept means manipulating a concept directly, this statement actually supports that manipulating a leyline is manipulating a concept, because leylines are networks of fundamental concepts themselves.

 

[Mbpoops]

Wow saved mova the trouble of nuking cm2

Sure idm

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Whatever a cable has to do with CM2…

conceptual cable

 

[MSahla]

Bump

 

[MSahla]

Bump

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Makes sense. If the only reason why they were CM instead of IM before is the "conceptual network" name, then I agree with the removal since the rest seems to fit just as well for information type 2 as well, plus "conceptual" doesn't even necessarily have to mean that word in the vsbw sense. We just normally assume it does unless there are anti-feats.

 

[MSahla]

Bump

 

[MSahla]

Bump

 

[MSahla]

Bump

 

[Imaginym]

I was asked to comment here.
I'm not familiar with the verse, & I don't often work with CM stuff, which seem to be significant to this CRT.
So far, it seems uncontentious with a fair bit of approval, but this seems like, to me, a somewhat heavy topic (The title even says "big changes".), so I'd like to know what other Knowledgeable Members &/or Staff Members think.

If the thread hasn't had any other Staff Evaluating it within a week, I could, at that point, try to @ some Staff to get their attention to it in the hopes they can help evaluate this.
Apologies if this isn't much to progress this thread's resolution.
Good luck!

 

[MSahla]

The title even says "big changes".),

Well, maybe I was exagerrating it a little bit, it's just an ability change + additions, lol.

If the thread hasn't had any other Staff Evaluating it within a week, I could, at that point, try to @ some Staff to get their attention to it in the hopes they can help evaluate this.
Apologies if this isn't much to progress this thread's resolution.
Good luck!

Thank you for coming.

 

[MSahla]

Bump

 

[RaikiKurohane99]

Makes sense to me.

 

[InfiOthinus]

Agree

 

[MSahla]

Bump

Bump

 

[MSahla]

Bump

 

[MSahla]

Bump

 

[HaonShiney]

Yeah this makes sense. I think conceptual manip could stay, Furina's argument is fairly convincing.

 

[MSahla]

Bump

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Someone give this man staff summoning technique

 

[MSahla]

Someone give this man staff summoning technique

Almost a week and not a single staff input.

 

[Duedate8898]

Type 1 and 2 information manipulation instead of Concept Manipulation I think is fine, however before I'm comfortable with approving that I do think I'll need direct scans describing both Phlogiston and Constellations as the current ones you use just link to the Genshin Impact Wiki and I need to see actual scans from the source material instead of wiki page to approve that. Especially as Phlogiston's programmable nature is the core of the IM change.

Causality Manipulation should probably stay limited because all fate manipulation users are manipulating causality as a side effect of their fate manipulation, they're not just manipulating Causality.

 

[MSahla]

however before I'm comfortable with approving that I do think I'll need direct scans describing both Phlogiston

There's literally the scan from thr in-game for it.

created by the Heavenly Principles from Phlogiston—

I'm linking Genshin Impact Wiki about Phlogiston because I just want people to know specifically about Phlogiston.

If you're talking about this:

one of the most primordial form of Elemental Energies, to develop a power better to counter against the Abyss

The former was described here, and the latter is from the earlier scan that I just quote.

Constellations as the current ones you use just link to the Genshin Impact Wiki and I need to see actual scans from the source material instead of wiki page to approve that.

First of all, we need to know that Constellations are a lore concept and gameplay mechanic in Genshin Impact. They control the fates (past, present, and future) of all humans in Teyvat.

CL-02: Do not mistake me, Fifth Lord. I do not stand in opposition to your proposal — on the contrary, I will cast my vote in its favor, for humanity is worthy of neither our clemency nor our tolerance. Yet still, I do not find your reasoning sound. If the day ever comes when humans truly imperil our kind, it would but prove that our kind have indeed grown too weak. And in their decline, they would deserve only to kneel before their subjugators and accept destined destruction, for there would be no need, nor possibility, to seek an alternative. The strong endure, the weak perish — that is the eternal truth of this world. Do not forget it.

CL-03: I abstain. The fate of these soulless creatures bound to star signs concerns me not. Do with them as you will.

CL-09: I, too, shall abstain. Fifth Lord, surely you do not truly hope to persuade us that these wretched insects, these creatures who know naught but to cower in the dark and slaughter one another without end, will one day suddenly unite? That they might march upon the Sacred City, which not even the surper of the sky could shake? Such absurd hysteria from a dragon, such loathsome cowardice... Unworthy even of my defiance.

The stars of Teyvat are closely intertwined with the concept of fate, and constellations are an extension of this. The stars of constellations are likened to strings by which the Heavenly Principles puppeteer the mortals of the Human Realm:

The heavens control human fate like a puppeteer controls a marionette. So, the inauspicious stars themselves do not have free will. But, once I seal their power inside of a doll and bind it with animal bones, the residual thoughts within the bones allow them to develop awareness. I call these, uh, little creations, "Tzitzimimeh." You can think of them as manifestations of the inauspicious stars.

↑—> Citlali's Voice-Overs: About Building Up

But before they could even consider that, the little witch had something to ask: "Can fortune tellers read the skeins of fate?"
The fortune teller then explained the underlying principles. Put simply, it's something like this:
In our world, the stars are the heavenly strings by which humans are bound. But in other worlds, the subjects of astrological study are the solar ecliptic energies, the various lunar energies of the satellites, the will-energy of the celestial rulers of the planets, the scattered interference energy of distant stars, and the dark energy that suffuses the pitch-black cosmos.

↑–> The Little Witch and the Undying Fire Vol. 2

Ineffa, who originally was an A.I Dragon was never meant to be bound by a Constellation. Because in Genshin Impact, you have a constellation = you're bound by fate. But after thousands of years later, she finally got her constellation. As stated here from her Character Story 5:

The Thirteen Sovereign Lords were the pinnacle of secret source technology and descendants of the Pyro Dragon. Their pride would not allow them to be bound by the constellations.

Ineffa, as a reflection of the "Mirror of the Dawning Morn," was never meant to bask in the light of the Stella Fortuna.

For those 2,000 years drifting through Nod-Krai, she was like a passerby, walking among countless tangled puppet strings, witnessing innumerable stars blazing into life and then flickering out to die. At times, she was pulled at by the threads known as "fate." At others, she was illuminated by the light called "humanity"... yet every time it was forgotten.

But when the "Moon Wheel" embedded within her core began to glow, the memories returned, and she finally recalled her journey's first ray of starlight.

Before Ineffa's departure, Lianca had picked a Vanilla Planifolia sprig and placed it between her components — a keepsake, etched into her memory.

At that time, Ineffa had failed to understand its significance.

The flower had long since withered, just as Vanilla Planifolia had disappeared from the forests of Natlan.

Yet 2,000 years later, high above the heavens, in the space between stars, a single Vanilla Planifolia quietly bloomed.

Notes:

1. "Vanilla Planifolia" is Ineffa's Constellation name.
2. "Stella Fortuna" is the stars in the Constellation, and they're all genuine celestial bodies. Stella means Stars, Fortuna literally means Fate.

We should also know that the fate of all living beings are predetermined, or predestined. Meaning their future is already set in stone.

Especially as Phlogiston's programmable nature is the core of the IM change.

That is not correct. The IM change is from the core function of the Ley Lines itself, not from the Phlogiston. I have summarized it here:

In conclusion, Irminsul and the Ley Lines qualify for both types of Information Manipulation:

1. Type 1 because they store and govern knowledge, memories, records, and historical information. Altering the information within them can erase knowledge, modify records, and cause individuals to be forgotten by the world.
2. Type 2 because the information contained within them is fundamental to reality itself. Changes to Irminsul do not merely affect what people know; they cause the world to rewrite and reorganize its history to remain consistent with the altered information. Wanderer's erasure demonstrates this, as reality reconstructed a new causal history around his absence, and Nahida specifically said the world would change to reflect the new reality. And thus, making their role as a fundamental informational framework underlying reality, fate, and causality with the fact that Irminsul and Ley Lines are the anchor of the fate of the world, and fate are intertwined with cause and effect.

Causality Manipulation should probably stay limited because all fate manipulation users are manipulating causality as a side effect of their fate manipulation, they're not just manipulating Causality.

I'd disagree with that reasoning. First, Irminsul or Ley Lines is the anchor of fate by which the Heavenly Principles maintains fate itself as stated by the Ruler of Time Istaroth. If the Irminsul/Ley Lines is the anchor of fate itself, then constellations are downstream manifestations of information already rooted within Irminsul/Ley Lines. Therefore, anchoring fate necessarily entails anchoring the constellation system that reflects that fate. So we can conclude that Irminsul/Ley Lines are connected to the constellation.

Then, most importantly, Naberius, the Ruler of Life, directly states that the Ley Lines/Irminsul are the beginning of the chain of cause and effect. The fact that Irminsul/Ley Lines is the anchor of fate to maintains fate itself, together with the beginning of the causal chain itself already proves that manipulating causality through fate manipulation is not merely a "side effect."

A side effect would imply that causality is only altered because fate happened to change. However, the lore establishes something much stronger: fate and causality share the same foundational source. If Irminsul is both the system that sustains fate and the point from which cause and effect originate, then manipulating Irminsul/Ley Lines/Constellation necessarily entails manipulating the causal framework itself, not just the outcomes produced by it.

In other words, this is not a case of "changing fate, therefore causality changes incidentally." It is "manipulating the origin that governs both fate and the chain of cause and effect." Since the causal chain itself begins at Irminsul, altering it is a direct interaction with causality's underlying structure, rather than a secondary consequence of Fate Manipulation.

 

[MSahla]

Bump...

 

[RaikiKurohane99]

Your help is appreciated​

@Planck69 @LephyrTheRevanchist , @Vietthai96 , @DarkDragonMedeus , @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless , @Godernet , @TWILIGHT-OP , @Nierre , @Random-Helper323 , @SomebodyData

 

[Mbpoops]

Holy gucamole

 

[MSahla]

Bump...

Bump

 

[MSahla]

Bump

 

[HaonShiney]

The staff will show up one day, hopefully T-T

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Looks fine.

 

[MSahla]

Finally, after all this time I got a legitemate vote..

 

[Vietthai96]

Looks oke

 

[MSahla]

Bump

Bump

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I agree

 

[MSahla]

I agree

I've applied the changes. This can be closed.