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Reinhard van Astrea Vs. Sasuke Uchiha

Phoenks said:
Layers > Number of People Affected.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately the hax page disagrees on this and considers them equal measures, it's something I didn't even know until a few days ago. I'd thought that layers completely replaced other potency metrics. Layers, numbers, and mechanisms are all considered.

Phoenks said:
but just having conceptual manipulation as the source of the ability is not really much of a factor.
Click to expand...
Rather, the reason given for the Divine Protection of Nightmares being incapable of entirely countering Soulwashing is due to it being an Authority, rather than being something about Soulwashing. That means it's its rule-breaking nature that makes complete defense impossible, since that's the only common point between Authorities. The Divine Protection of Nightmares instead just disregards the majority of its influence, which makes it sufficiently effective as a resistance.
 
Zabazab said:
Unfortunately the hax page disagrees on this and considers them equal measures, it's something I didn't even know until a few days ago. I'd thought that layers completely replaced other potency metrics. Layers, numbers, and mechanisms are all considered.


Rather, the reason given for the Divine Protection of Nightmares being incapable of entirely countering Soulwashing is due to it being an Authority, rather than being something about Soulwashing. That means it's its rule-breaking nature that makes complete defense impossible, since that's the only common point between Authorities. The Divine Protection of Nightmares instead just disregards the majority of its influence, which makes it sufficiently effective as a resistance.
Click to expand...
Doesn't RE compensate for all this difference in layers? Red-Haired gets exactly the resistance he needs in battle.
 
If you say that conceptual nature of his resistances are enough to bypass 3-4 layers of genjutsu - explain how the hell layers can ignore such thing as dimensionality
 
Zabazab said:
Unfortunately the hax page disagrees on this and considers them equal measures, it's something I didn't even know until a few days ago. I'd thought that layers completely replaced other potency metrics. Layers, numbers, and mechanisms are all considered.


Rather, the reason given for the Divine Protection of Nightmares being incapable of entirely countering Soulwashing is due to it being an Authority, rather than being something about Soulwashing. That means it's its rule-breaking nature that makes complete defense impossible, since that's the only common point between Authorities. The Divine Protection of Nightmares instead just disregards the majority of its influence, which makes it sufficiently effective as a resistance.
Click to expand...
You're reading the page wrongly
 
Zabazab said:
Unfortunately the hax page disagrees on this and considers them equal measures, it's something I didn't even know until a few days ago. I'd thought that layers completely replaced other potency metrics. Layers, numbers, and mechanisms are all considered.
Click to expand...
There are 4 measures used for potency.
1. Mechanism. Is Sasuke mechanisms superior here? The answer is yes as it encompasses the mind, Brain, nervous system and all 5 senses. It even goes as far as to affect the soul

2. Layers. Does he have superior layers? Overwhelmingly so, it's 3 layers of mind manipulation, a layer already is almost enough to disregard any other factor as that's the most important portion there. In fact there is a note on the page explaining to you how if you have a gas that affects your mind, simply spreading the gas over more ground does not increase the potency, which is exactly what you are arguing for.

3. How greats the effects are: is Sasuke mm effects greater than anything he has faced? Yup, his genjutsu is above something like tsukyomi that can warp space, time and create an entire dimension in a mind. Allow someone to experience 3 days in seconds and torture and repeat the same scene over and over again for hundreds of thousands of time. Extract info, control the body, read memories ..I can keep going.

4. How many people it can affect. Here is the only place you have an edge and that's it.

If Sasuke is overwhelmingly superior in 3 out of 4 categories? It's safe to say he doesn't stand a chance
 
karo_senpaii said:
There are 4 measures used for potency.
1. Mechanism. Is Sasuke mechanisms superior here? The answer is yes as it encompasses the mind, Brain, nervous system and all 5 senses. It even goes as far as to affect the soul

2. Layers. Does he have superior layers? Overwhelmingly so, it's 3 layers of mind manipulation, a layer already is almost enough to disregard any other factor as that's the most important portion there. In fact there is a note on the page explaining to you how if you have a gas that affects your mind, simply spreading the gas over more ground does not increase the potency, which is exactly what you are arguing for.

3. How greats the effects are: is Sasuke mm effects greater than anything he has faced? Yup, his genjutsu is above something like tsukyomi that can warp space, time and create an entire dimension in a mind. Allow someone to experience 3 days in seconds and torture and repeat the same scene over and over again for hundreds of thousands of time. Extract info, control the body, read memories ..I can keep going.

4. How many people it can affect. Here is the only place you have an edge and that's it.

If Sasuke is overwhelmingly superior in 3 out of 4 categories? It's safe to say he doesn't stand a chance
Click to expand...
What does it matter if Protection provides resistance to a specific phenomenon?
The number of layers is a purely abstract concept. I might have a mindhax that no one has ever resisted, and my friend Innokenty might have a mindhax with 5 layers of resistance, but in reality, my hax might be stronger, even though it seems like 1 layer versus 5.

The blessing of the red-haired Marty Sue literally gives him the right resistance at the right moment.

If you fry him with a 1 million degree fire, he won't respond with resistance to standard fire. He'll immediately resist 1 million degrees.
 
NikHelton said:
What does it matter if Protection provides resistance to a specific phenomenon?
The number of layers is a purely abstract concept.
Click to expand...
What????????!?
NikHelton said:
I might have a mindhax that no one has ever resisted, and my friend Innokenty might have a mindhax with 5 layers of resistance, but in reality, my hax might be stronger, even though it seems like 1 layer versus 5.
Click to expand...
Can you proof this for Rien? As far as things are going we have provided potency, range and superior layers
NikHelton said:
The blessing of the red-haired Marty Sue literally gives him the right resistance at the right moment. If you fry him with a 1 million degree fire, he won't respond with resistance to standard fire. He'll immediately resist 1 million degrees.
Click to expand...
Don’t see that on his profile
 
NikHelton said:
What does it matter if Protection provides resistance to a specific phenomenon?
The number of layers is a purely abstract concept. I might have a mindhax that no one has ever resisted, and my friend Innokenty might have a mindhax with 5 layers of resistance, but in reality, my hax might be stronger, even though it seems like 1 layer versus 5.
Click to expand...
This is purely false. Unless you are talking about potency vs layers which should refer to a tier 1 mind hax and a tier 7 mind hax with 5 layers
 
AlternativePrinciple said:
What????????!?
Click to expand...
Perhaps you misunderstood me because of the translator. I stated my thoughts in the next paragraph.
AlternativePrinciple said:
Can you proof this for Rien? As far as things are going we have provided potency, range and superior layers

Don’t see that on his profile
Click to expand...

• Analytical Prediction (He has a sixth sense which perceives danger in advance

• Information Analysis (With the Divine Protection of Judgement, he can know of any Divine Protections held by anyone he sees. Superior to Kurgan and Theresia, who can judge a person’s abilities at a glanceand see floating white rays which lead to the optimal path of victory as they intuitively grasp their opponents most vulnerable points. Unfathomably superior to Garfiel, who can tell how strong someone is at a single glance, as well as what martial arts they use, even being able to tell Subaru practiced kendo in middle school)

• Fate Manipulation (Several individuals, through their intuition, consistently select the "correct answer" in various situations as they are loved by fate itself.

• Instinctive Action (With the Divine Protection of First Sight, Reinhard instinctively understands how to react so as to defend himself from attacks he is seeing for the very first time. With the Divine Protection of the Second Coming, Reinhard intuitively understands how to avoid or counter so as to defend himself from attacks he has seen twice or more.

• Adaptation & Reactive Evolution (Stated by the author that if he were thrown into space, he would adapt. Reinhard's number of Divine Protections and ability to adapt are so outstanding that even if he were caught in a trap that was prepared to ensnare and kill the world's cleverest Witch, he would easily break through)

• Empowerment (He can receive almost any Divine Protection that exists in the world if he feels he needs it, and even Divine Protections which don't exist as Od Lagna creates and gives Divine Protections to him. Divine Protections are often either: combat-oriented, environmental, or useless poor jokes.

Now just add 2 + 2 and you get this:

Reinhard, thanks to instinctive reactions and manipulation of fate, automatically chooses the best way to fight Sasuke. I heard earlier that not looking him in the eye is enough to avoid being caught in a genjutsu. Even if that's not true, he automatically detects Sasuke's abilities and develops Devine Protection against them, and even if that doesn't work, he breaks free thanks to Reactive Evolution + Adaptation. And even if he does help, he resurrects thanks to his immortality and Low-Godly regen, and then wins thanks to Strengthening and RE.

Did you notice how many "ifs" there are? Because that red-haired bastard has so many cheats.
That's why I say it's most likely stomp.
 
NikHelton said:
Perhaps you misunderstood me because of the translator. I stated my thoughts in the next paragraph.


• Analytical Prediction (He has a sixth sense which perceives danger in advance

• Information Analysis (With the Divine Protection of Judgement, he can know of any Divine Protections held by anyone he sees. Superior to Kurgan and Theresia, who can judge a person’s abilities at a glanceand see floating white rays which lead to the optimal path of victory as they intuitively grasp their opponents most vulnerable points. Unfathomably superior to Garfiel, who can tell how strong someone is at a single glance, as well as what martial arts they use, even being able to tell Subaru practiced kendo in middle school)

• Fate Manipulation (Several individuals, through their intuition, consistently select the "correct answer" in various situations as they are loved by fate itself.

• Instinctive Action (With the Divine Protection of First Sight, Reinhard instinctively understands how to react so as to defend himself from attacks he is seeing for the very first time. With the Divine Protection of the Second Coming, Reinhard intuitively understands how to avoid or counter so as to defend himself from attacks he has seen twice or more.

• Adaptation & Reactive Evolution (Stated by the author that if he were thrown into space, he would adapt. Reinhard's number of Divine Protections and ability to adapt are so outstanding that even if he were caught in a trap that was prepared to ensnare and kill the world's cleverest Witch, he would easily break through)
Click to expand...
None of this makes him resist more mind manipulation
NikHelton said:
• Empowerment (He can receive almost any Divine Protection that exists in the world if he feels he needs it, and even Divine Protections which don't exist as Od Lagna creates and gives Divine Protections to him. Divine Protections are often either: combat-oriented, environmental, or useless poor jokes.
Click to expand...
This is another universe, Od Laguna doesn’t exists here. She cannot give blessing in Naruto’s universe
NikHelton said:
Now just add 2 + 2 and you get this:

Reinhard, thanks to instinctive reactions and manipulation of fate, automatically chooses the best way to fight Sasuke. I heard earlier that not looking him in the eye is enough to avoid being caught in a genjutsu. Even if that's not true, he automatically detects Sasuke's abilities and develops Devine Protection against them, and even if that doesn't work, he breaks free thanks to Reactive Evolution + Adaptation. And even if he does help, he resurrects thanks to his immortality and Low-Godly regen, and then wins thanks to Strengthening and RE.

Did you notice how many "ifs" there are? Because that red-haired bastard has so many cheats.
That's why I say it's most likely stomp.
Click to expand...
All of these were just bunch of abilities that have no bearing on him resisting mind manipulation.
 
3Pencil said:
This is purely false. Unless you are talking about potency vs layers which should refer to a tier 1 mind hax and a tier 7 mind hax with 5 layers
Click to expand...
If character A has RE + probability manipulation + creation of new resistances and abilities, and character B has a 7-layer mindhax, then character A will develop resistance to the 7-layer mindhax, but not to the mindhax with 1 layer
 
karo_senpaii said:
There are 4 measures used for potency.
1. Mechanism. Is Sasuke mechanisms superior here? The answer is yes as it encompasses the mind, Brain, nervous system and all 5 senses. It even goes as far as to affect the soul
Click to expand...
Authority is absolutely a superior mechanism given it functions by breaking the world's rules and ignoring its concepts, and I've already said that Soulwashing affects the mind, soul, senses, and physical state, even through effects that separate awareness from the rest of the world.

karo_senpaii said:
2. Layers. Does he have superior layers? Overwhelmingly so, it's 3 layers of mind manipulation, a layer already is almost enough to disregard any other factor as that's the most important portion there. In fact there is a note on the page explaining to you how if you have a gas that affects your mind, simply spreading the gas over more ground does not increase the potency, which is exactly what you are arguing for.
Click to expand...
Layers is true. But again, contrary to popular belief, layering is not the end-all be-all for hax potency. It is not given greater value than other means of potency.

karo_senpaii said:
3. How greats the effects are: is Sasuke mm effects greater than anything he has faced? Yup, his genjutsu is above something like tsukyomi that can warp space, time and create an entire dimension in a mind. Allow someone to experience 3 days in seconds and torture and repeat the same scene over and over again for hundreds of thousands of time. Extract info, control the body, read memories ..I can keep going.
Click to expand...
Soulwashing can see what's hidden inside a person's heart, their emotions and memories. It can take complete control of a person and make them act completely differently from how they woud normally, such as making altruistic heroes celebrate the murder of a child, or kill their own friends and family. It has also caused endless feedback loops to force someone to experience infinite fear, finally outright killing with a fear-induced cardiac arrest.

Another mind-melting Authority is Compression, which can Compress thoughts to overwhelm the brain, and Compress a million seconds and force that onto a person so they experience that timespan as nothingness.

NikHelton said:
If you fry him with a 1 million degree fire, he won't respond with resistance to standard fire. He'll immediately resist 1 million degrees.
Click to expand...
I mean this is somewhat true, if Reinhard is exposed to flames beyond what his Divine Protection of Fire Avoidance can handle, he gains the Divine Protection of Fireplay which not only counters them, it makes his stronger within the fire. But we're not discussing fire.


AlternativePrinciple said:
This is another universe, Od Laguna doesn’t exists here. She cannot give blessing in Naruto’s universe
Click to expand...
This I take massive issue with. Characters are assumed to have access to their full capabilities in a vs match, Reinhard without the Od Lagna's favour isn't Reinhard. You cannot restrict one in such a way unless it's due to a character in the matchup using a power to counter that ability, or a fun & games thread.
 
Thunderman101 said:
sata andagi
Click to expand...

886aa4122914.jpeg
 
NikHelton said:
If character A has RE + probability manipulation + creation of new resistances and abilities, and character B has a 7-layer mindhax, then character A will develop resistance to the 7-layer mindhax, but not to the mindhax with 1 layer
Click to expand...
I am not talking about RE, I am replying to the belief of 1 layer mind hax > 5 layers in the same setting even though the 1 layer has more range or is considered stronger one way or another which isn't referring to stronger layer.
Then that 1 layer mind hax is basically something he can't RE and resist since it's different entirely in tiering which in gives it better potency
 
Zabazab said:
Unfortunately the hax page disagrees on this and considers them equal measures, it's something I didn't even know until a few days ago. I'd thought that layers completely replaced other potency metrics. Layers, numbers, and mechanisms are all considered.
Click to expand...
That's an oversimplification of the page.

Overcoming resistances is, in most cases, a superior showcase of hax potency which is why the page focuses on it so much.

It's just that there are cases where it might be less clear cut or debatable. Like if Sirius' ability had a demonstrably greater effect on people when it was focused on a smaller group, then you'd be able to say that the power is stronger the less people she has to focus on, which would give you some scaling to work with.

But it's not like that in her case. It's just range. Range is not equivalent to potency. It's the same reason that we no longer treat higher-dimensional abilities as inherently smurfy.

Zabazab said:
Rather, the reason given for the Divine Protection of Nightmares being incapable of entirely countering Soulwashing is due to it being an Authority, rather than being something about Soulwashing. That means it's its rule-breaking nature that makes complete defense impossible, since that's the only common point between Authorities. The Divine Protection of Nightmares instead just disregards the majority of its influence, which makes it sufficiently effective as a resistance.
Click to expand...
This is just layered resistance, no? I mean, that's already accepted on the page. It would be more of a NLF to say it can bypass any amount of layers just because it's source is 'rule-breaking,' though.
 
Phoenks explained what I said about the potency vs layers stuff much better.


Like, if I can use my concept manipulation to do what is otherwise basic mind manipulation, that is not really any more potent than said basic mind manipulation. But if the mind manipulation can affect conceptual constructs (Minds/Souls that are accepted to be Type 2 or 1 Concepts), then yes, that would be a factor here.
Click to expand...

Now having that in mind then yeah I'm also in for all Genjutsu being a full on wincon

NikHelton said:
Doesn't RE compensate for all this difference in layers? Red-Haired gets exactly the resistance he needs in battle.
Click to expand...
ONLY if you have feats otherwise you are getting layer'd diffed and even if you have said feats you will need to get the resistance before you get hit with the hax
 
3Pencil said:
I am not talking about RE, I am replying to the belief of 1 layer mind hax > 5 layers in the same setting even though the 1 layer has more range or is considered stronger one way or another which isn't referring to stronger layer.
Then that 1 layer mind hax is basically something he can't RE and resist since it's different entirely in tiering which in gives it better potency
Click to expand...
Um, RE can't resist it simply... because?

RE provides resistance to a specific phenomenon, and it doesn't matter how many layers that phenomenon has. I could understand if Sasuke also had RE, and his mindhax gained a new layer every time Reinhard adapted to it. But Sasuke doesn't.

The number of layers merely measures the power of the ability and is no different
than my fire example. If you attack a character with such a mindhax set with a flame of 10 million degrees, they will develop resistance to flames of 10 million degrees, not 1000 degrees. Simply because they adapt to the specific type of impact they encounter.

And even if they die, they resurrect and adapt to everything Sasuke can throw at them.
 
NikHelton said:
RE provides resistance to a specific phenomenon, and it doesn't matter how many layers that phenomenon has.
Click to expand...
This is NLF, so no. If Reinhard's RE has never adapted to a layered ability in verse, or has no statements that it can arbitrarily adapt to things like that, then you cannot argue that he adapts here.

From the RE page:
It would be a No Limits Fallacy to assume someone with this power can obtain any ability whatsoever. Its extent and complexity only go as far its feats and scaling have gone for it, in relation up to countermeasures to powers that already exist in the setting or similar, in a case by case basis.
Click to expand...
3-layered mindhax is neither something that exists in ReZero's setting, nor is there a layered ability similar to it in the verse (at least from what was said in this thread), so there are no grounds for Reinhard to adapt to it.
 
Last edited:
Btw if this the route we're trying to go then who cares about this match if we're trying to give Sasuke the most fraudulent win in existence on this site by auto restricting Reinhard's entire kit, which includes Dragon Sword since apparently mf doesn't even have the Sword Saint Divine Protection anymore because "Naruto Universe no Od Laguna!!!!!!"
 
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