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- #81
The speed ratings is literally just "these arcs are right after each other, correlate their feats". I don't know what there is to look closer to
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One Piece: Alabasta -> Skypiea Key Merge, Scaling Swap, and Calc Implementation
- Thread starter KingTempest
- Start date
Lilybitdun
She/Her- 2,508
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The literal highest speed feat in Alasbasta is Zala failing to dodge lightning, it feels pretty fair to be skeptical of making them MHS+ from feats from the next arc
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I don't think Zala should scale to MHS+. Nami in Skypiea (who Zala would presumably scale to) is only MHS.
Lilybitdun
She/Her- 2,508
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OP has Zala =Daz = Bon Clay, etc with all the Alabasta High Tiers being comparable in speed
The merge would make Zala MHS+ as the OP currently stands
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The actual speed value that Zala would scale to is below the speed of lightning, so her failing to dodge while caught off-guard isn't really a contradiction.
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I think it would be more straightforward to scale Zala in speed to Nami who she has fought, than to scale her to Mr. 1 that she has no direct speed statements comparing them so far as I'm aware. The statement of "Each of them is paired with a female agent who matches their powers well" isn't direct enough to mean speed values are exactly the same between male and female members of the same rank. Crocodile is faster than Robin for example.
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Considering Miss Goldenweek is paired with Mr. 3, and has literally no feats that would make her relative to Mr. 3 (or really anyone who's worth their salt in combat), it does seem to be more of a powers pairing (for example Mr 4 and Miss Merry Christmas), and less of a stats (AP, Speed etc) pairing
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,821
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If that the case then i guess Zala would only scale to East Blue Tier characters like Arlong or scale above weaker agents like Mr. 5?
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She'd scale to Skypiea Nami since keys are being merged.
Lilybitdun
She/Her- 2,508
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Yeah the statement not meaning the male & female partners are equal in stats solves one of my main contention with the thread (Tho that likely opens it's own can of worms for the current inverse scaling)
Still against the idea of a key merge since Luffy is more than likely just stronger in Skypeia due to accelerated development / zenkai boost-esque shenanigans from the Crocodile fight. If there are reasons why that wouldn't be the case tho then the thread is fine
Still against the idea of a key merge since Luffy is more than likely just stronger in Skypeia due to accelerated development / zenkai boost-esque shenanigans from the Crocodile fight. If there are reasons why that wouldn't be the case tho then the thread is fine
I'm personally fine with characters like Nami having Alabasta & Skypiea keys merged since they don't have anything to suggest an increase in stats
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- Thread starter
- #91
It's her staring at a cloud not expecting lightning from point blank range literally inches above her head
Not the same as the others who block lightning from meters away
Especially since Usopp and Nami, extremely weak characters throughout the entirety of the pre-timeskip half, can block and dodge lightning in the next arc while injured
Come on
I am not for this in the slightest. She shows superiority to Nami in every instance and is only tagged when she uses unique special moves. Why are we scaling Zala to one of the slowest characters when she's one of the top tiers of the damn arc.
Goldenweek is, easily, the largest outlier in the lineup, as her abilities are full of just straight hypnosis and 0 combat. This is why we didn't add her to the lineup. She hasn't even thrown a punch.
Mr. 3 also isn't where he is because of strength. He is an outlier. Crocodile blatantly says that he's an outlier and he's weaker than Mr. 4 and he's only up there because his intelligence is so high. He and Goldenweek are outliers.
Gem and Mikita showed relative feats fighting the same individuals. Same as Babe and Drophy who kept up with each other on their onslaught against Usopp and Chopper. Zala's powers is her making spikes, so unless you think he's "equally lethal" to the 2nd strongest male in Baroque Works who is immune to swords, fought Zoro, and can dice buildings with a tap, solely because she can make spikes, Goldenweek isn't a good comparison
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When does Crocodile say he's an outlier?
Vivi explicitly says "Each are paired with a female agent who matches their powers well", which doesn't seem to prove that their equal in strength but instead matched well in (Devil Fruit) abilities, which would explain why Mr. 4 and Merry Christmas are paired together, their powers work extremely well together, and similarly with Mr. 3 and Goldenweek.
Your conclusion doesn't make sense to me. If Vivi says their "powers" are matched, and we see combinations such as Mr. 4 and his partner, Mr. 1 and his partner, then the correct conclusion is that Miss Goldenweek's powers, which is related to art (just like Mr. 3), is matched with Mr. 3, who's also an artsy dude. She even helped make wax clones of him iirc. She's not an outlier, her power just matches with his.
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Mr. 3 and Miss Goldenweek are outliers. They are a special pair that were chosen because of their ruthlessness and intelligence rather than their power like the others. It's already been established that agents above number 5 are exceptionally powerful. The same applies for Zala. Her powers and lethality being relative to Mr. 1's means that so are her stats.
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- Thread starter
- #94
Full scan
Huge outlier
Huge outlier
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That doesn't negate the fact that Miss Goldenweek's powers ARE powerful. She doesn't have to be physically powerful.
Again, Vivi explicitly says "matches their powers well", which coincides with the fact that Miss Goldenweek was paired with Mr. 3 because of her abilities.
Zala was paired with Mr. 1 because of their "coldblooded nature"
You guys haven't sufficiently proven that their pairing (not ranking) is because of strength. Mr. 3 is an outlier within the ranking of the Top 5 Officer Agents in Baroque Works, but when it comes to pairing, as I've mentioned above, it doesn't have to do with strength, it instead has to do with their skills. Zala and Mr. 1 in nature are both the same, and Miss Goldenweek's abilities compliments Mr. 3's. So I don't agree with either of you in that regard.
Huge outlier
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The wiki lied. These are stated nowhere on Zala or Miss Goldenweek's vivre cards.
When Igaram explained Baroque Works' hierarchy, he said that agents become stronger the closer their number is to 0. That statement applies to the officer agents as a whole, not just the male members. Zala occupies the #1 strength position alongside Daz Bones, just as every female partner shares her partner's rank.
Mr. 2 is a good example. He has no female partner, so Bon Clay alone occupies the #2 position. His individual strength is what places him there. The same principle goes for the other officer agent teams: Mr. 1 and Zala together hold the #1 rank, Mr. 4 and Miss Merry Christmas together hold the #4 rank, and so on.
According to Crocodile, Mr. 3 was given his number not based on strength like Mr. 4. That indicates that the #3 position wasn't based on power to begin with, meaning that his partner (Miss Goldenweek) not being physically strong is to be expected. Miss Goldenweek being the only female partner who can't fight and just so happening to be paired with the only officer agent who wasn't ranked because of their strength should've told you that they're outliers.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 6,921
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These are not vivre cards. These are graphics made by Artur - Library of Ohara.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 6,921
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I couldn't find their vivre cards myself to verify so maybe, maybe not. But my point still stands without it. Was just using it as support.
Incorrect. He explicitly says "your code name". He's referring to the members that have numbers in their code names. Which don't include the female members.
Bon Clay has no partner because they identify as both male AND female.
His individual strength does place him there, yes. And so do the others with the sole exception of Mr. 3. But this specifically is the males that are ranked 1-5, as Igaram stated. The female members are matched with them for specific reasons as I stated in my last post.
I heavily disagree on that section and I doubt I'll be convinced otherwise.
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And those summaries are incorrect. Artur often adds his own interpretation into them. This is the direct translation of Zala and Miss Goldenweek's Vivre Cards:
Neither of these state that the reason that they're paired is personality or ability-based. That's Artur's take. The direct translation simply states that Miss Goldenweek can make Mr. 3's clones look real and that Mr. 1 and Zala work well together.
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The point is, with or without the Vivre Card, that Vivi says that their powers is what matches the Agent Officers and their partners together. Igaram states that the members who's code names go from 0 to 5 is based on strength (excluding Mr. 3) and that the closer you are to 0 the more powerful you are.
What that means is, the vertical ranking (top-down) is a hierarchy based on strength, but horizontally (male - female partnership) isn't, and is instead based on synchrony.
What that means is, the vertical ranking (top-down) is a hierarchy based on strength, but horizontally (male - female partnership) isn't, and is instead based on synchrony.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 6,921
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I mean, that's true if you translate the wrong Vivre Card. The site summarizes information about the characters, even if that information is found in DIFFERENT VIVRE CARDS.
The Miss Golden Week line comes from Mr 3's Vivre Card, not her own.
"◆B・W時代は自身の能力と相性の良いミス・ゴールデンウィークとパートナーだった。"
or "During his time in B.W., he was partnered with Miss Goldenweek, whose abilities were highly compatible with his own"
I'm pretty sure the one from Zala also comes from Mr 1, but I'll have to look it up.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 6,921
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Kat is just wrong about this one, so, the Vivre Card is valid for support.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 6,921
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GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 6,921
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This is just... not where I translated?
A slightly better resolution:
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All that would require is rating Zala to be superior to Nami which is why we have the "At least" ratings.
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- Thread starter
- #108
Zala can just scale to Mr. 2, which would still scale her to the value.
Idky we’re trying to avoid scaling Zala to a value she has business scaling to
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Why would she scale to Mr. 2?
Some of us are just unconvinced by it. I'm not looking for reasons for her not to scale.
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- #110
Because she’s higher on the hierarchy of strength???
It’s the current accepted scaling
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Maybe the raws say something more specific, but as far I can tell a "hierarchy of strength" doesn't necessarily mean all statistics.
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- #112
Why are we assuming otherwise? That’s the basic deduction that if you’re stated to be a superior fighter you would be for speed as well
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- #114
Bump of heaven and earth
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I think there's a little bit of an impasse because Nierre and I have expressed some concerns we have about the Baroque Works agents scaling, and there's been some objections to the speed backscaling.
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- #117
The objections to the speed backscaling is literally just "I don't know". The arcs are a day apart and the monster trio hadn't grown by any necessary value to note a speed difference
The objection to the baroque work agent scaling is just irrelevant skepticism
The objection to the baroque work agent scaling is just irrelevant skepticism
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It's not irrelevant, it's questioning the assumptions being used in the proposed scaling. The statements used for the Baroque Works agents scaling aren't as explicit as "Every agent is faster than the agents ranked below them" and "Every female agent is just as fast as the male agent they're partnered with". There's room for reasonable doubt.
Maybe some other staff could evaluate the statements themselves and decide if they're enough basis for speed scaling?
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- #119
what is the caviat if we don't scale zala
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Do you mean what would we scale Zala to instead? I believe we can just scale her to be superior to Nami's combat speed, put an "At least" rating on her speed to cover her superiority.
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