Regarding the Mechanic of Undertale

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Tbf this happens only during his sleep, as it doesn't before he starts to close his eyes (he DOES teleport you during the falling asleep process however).

Though I'd interpret this as also a feat of Frisk anyways as they could straight up alter their menu during a much stronger foe than Sans.

We still run into the issue of what is 'enforcing' this.

Taking Turns, not being able to attack on each others turns, this all part of Undertales Verse-Mechanics. If we're saying Sans can use HIS verses mechanics, against people outside his verse, then that means he's forcing 'some' of Undertales Mechanics onto other characters.

Does that mean you need to scale above the Undertale Verse to ignore that mechanic? Are we now allowing an entire verse to assist a character in his matches? Cause that's basically what this is.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Taking Turns, not being able to attack on each others turns, this all part of Undertales Verse-Mechanics. If we're saying Sans can use HIS verses mechanics, against people outside his verse, then that means he's forcing 'some' of Undertales Mechanics onto other characters.

That's... literally what happens in every VS Thread. Mechanics that are compatible with other people's verses are assumed to work in them, and they do. Do we magically just remove people like Monika or White Face's file stuff only because other verses don't have the files of their game worlds? No, we do not ban these verses right because of both being equalized to be the same.

Does that mean you need to scale above the Undertale Verse to ignore that mechanic? Are we now allowing an entire verse to assist a character in his matches? Cause that's basically what this is.

Saying this is the equivalent of saying "a dude using CM 1 is being assisted by the verses to win" just because the opponent's verse lacks Type 1 concepts to be manipulated otherwise lol.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

That's... literally what happens in every VS Thread. Mechanics that are compatible with other people's verses are assumed to work in them, and they do. Do we magically just remove people like Monika or White Face's file stuff only because other verses don't have the files of their game worlds? No, we do not ban these verses right because of both being equalized to be the same.

Saying this is the equivalent of saying "a dude using CM 1 is being assisted by the verses to win" just because the opponent's verse lacks Type 1 concepts to be manipulated otherwise lol.

The issue is that the Undertale Profiles don't list it as anything.

No Law Manipulation, no Plot Manipulation, no Information Manipulation. I would suggest making a CRT, giving all characters in Undertale some kind of agreed-upon manipulation that explains why they can force other characters beyond their verse to obey these rules, otherwise it's literally coming out of nowhere. It'll also give other characters the ability to resist it or scale above it, since right now it's just a vaguely accepted thing.

 

[StrymULTRA]

No Law Manipulation, no Plot Manipulation, no Information Manipulation. I would suggest making a CRT, giving all characters in Undertale some kind of agreed-upon manipulation that explains why they can force other characters beyond their verse to obey these rules, otherwise it's literally coming out of nowhere. It'll also give other characters the ability to resist it or scale above it, since right now it's just a vaguely accepted thing.

Well, this guy has it as Law Hax (ik it's from Deltarune, but it's canonically a parallel game world played from the same Player entity, so it kinda counts), so we have a start.

OP should take this as a suggestion tho as I personally don't really care about Sans to that degree.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

I would suggest making a CRT, giving all characters in Undertale some kind of agreed-upon manipulation that explains why they can force other characters beyond their verse to obey these rules, otherwise it's literally coming out of nowhere. It'll also give other characters the ability to resist it or scale above it, since right now it's just a vaguely accepted thing.

This CRT already serves that purpose, though.

 

[StrymULTRA]

This CRT already serves that purpose, though.

Ok, what hax would Sans gain from this lol?

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Ok, what hax would Sans gain from this lol?

??? Brother, I don't get what you mean. I'm so fricking sleepy I can't process shit. Wdym by this lol. I'm gonna respond tomorrow morning.

 

[ShionAH]

Ok, what hax would Sans gain from this lol?

Ig wouldnt this just bring back his Law hax

 

[StrymULTRA]

??? Brother, I don't get what you mean. I'm so fricking sleepy I can't process shit. Wdym by this lol. I'm gonna respond tomorrow morning.

I mean, what would be the ability Sans would get? Info hax, Law hax, Plot hax, Concept hax, etc...?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Even Asriel doesn't do that.

Tbf if this passes, then Asriel specifically should, just like he should be able to save and load in fights because he is basically Omega Flowey but buffed like crazy, he just can't on Pacifist because Frisk matches him in DT.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

I mean, what would be the ability Sans would get? Info hax, Law hax, Plot hax, Concept hax, etc...?

If the proposed solution from SpaceMan were to be accepted, then I think it would mostly just bring back his Law hax, though the reasoning could potentially be extended to other aspects of the mechanics as well.

That said, I still don't think it's really true to his character. The guy isn't actually manipulating anything, he's exploiting loopholes in something that's already there. There's no alteration taking place. He's simply taking advantage of flaws in the system and tricking it into producing a favorable outcome.

I just got up, so there's might be something that I miss or forgot to mention.

 

[ShionAH]

How is attacking through the UI or starting first not manipulating the rules but exploiting a loophole?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Attacking the UI shouldn't count as anything btw, unless Asgore is physically making us fully unable to attempt to spare him and shit.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

How is attacking through the UI or starting first not manipulating the rules but exploiting a loophole?

No one really knows for sure outside of headcanon. However, given Gerson's earlier implication that these things are achieved through knowledge, and the fact that he can “trick” the battle mechanics into not initiating while he's in a shop, the most reasonable conclusion is that they're exploiting loopholes within the system rather than directly manipulating it.

This is further supported by how Sans is portrayed. He clearly knows about the system, but there's never been any real implication that he can outright manipulate it. Otherwise, he would already know about the SAVE mechanic instead of merely speculating that we're some kind of time traveler.

That said, however, if we were to simplify this so it could work on VS Thread, then giving him manipulation to it is reasonable, I guess.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Attacking the UI shouldn't count as anything btw, unless Asgore is physically making us fully unable to attempt to spare him and shit.

The thing is, that's still an integral part of how Sans fights. Given that phase two is framed as his “real battle” and essentially his serious mode, attacking the UI should be taken into account in a VS Thread.

Tbf, Asgore could also be aware of the system. Most of the characters we've seen who possess knowledge of it and can exploit it (without necessarily manipulating it) tend to be either highly intelligent or very experienced in combat. And considering that Asgore is arguably comparable to Gerson in terms of combat experience and knowledge, I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that he may be aware of the system as well.

 

[Comiphorous]

Attacking the UI shouldn't count as anything btw, unless Asgore is physically making us fully unable to attempt to spare him and shit.

I mean...

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I do think people have to acknowledge that sometimes verse mechanics just can’t be translated into a neutral match up that doesn’t take place in the verses setting. It might make certain characters or things seem lame or neutered, but if you’re reliant on verse exclusive mechanics (these can’t be equalized so easily it’s not the same as like having fate favor you) rather than something more generic, encompassing, and equalizable like metaphysical aspects and then imposing your will on those neutral aspects then it’s sorta tough luck if they rely on very specific stuff that only applies to the verse. Not really an applicable ability they have outside of the verse in my eyes.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean...

Combat applicable, ok, but what does it do in cross verse lol?

I do think people have to acknowledge that sometimes verse mechanics just can’t be translated into a neutral match up that doesn’t take place in the verses setting. It might make certain characters or things seem lame or neutered, but if you’re reliant on verse exclusive mechanics (these can’t be equalized so easily it’s not the same as like having fate favor you) rather than something more generic, encompassing, and equalizable like metaphysical aspects and then imposing your will on those neutral aspects then it’s sorta tough luck if they rely on very specific stuff that only applies to the verse. Not really an applicable ability they have outside of the verse in my eyes.

I mean, Rouxls already does list that as Law Hax. But I'd be fine with re-evaluating the stuff Sans has under his 4th wall break thing, as some is genuinely just weird.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Can't really comment much as I am getting gang-banged by the final exam incoming, but iirc, the entire discussion at first started because of the fourth-wall shenanigans of Sans, more specifically the whole;
"Sans can leave/flee the fight, and the System will do some random shenanigans making it so that the opponent fights nothing (?), while Sans leave. This will in turn cause the opponent to think there's nothing to fight, and they'll leave, causing a win for Sans (???) since they left." Even though... Sans is the one who self-bfr'd or left.

Of course, stuff escalated from there and now we're here, arguing about the whole system application in general.

 

[StrymULTRA]

"Sans can leave/flee the fight, and the System will do some random shenanigans making it so that the opponent fights nothing (?), while Sans leave. This will in turn cause the opponent to think there's nothing to fight, and they'll leave, causing a win for Sans (???) since they left." Even though... Sans is the one who self-bfr'd or left.

I absolutely don't agree with this, btw. I think that's too verse dependent.

The UI thing I believe it's applicable to some sorts to characters who canonically use some interface in order to act.

The extending the turn however definitely should stay, as multiple verses do indeed treat turns as the course of brief actions before the next one similarly to Undertale, so trying to remove that feels just unfair.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

I do think people have to acknowledge that sometimes verse mechanics just can’t be translated into a neutral match up that doesn’t take place in the verses setting. It might make certain characters or things seem lame or neutered, but if you’re reliant on verse exclusive mechanics (these can’t be equalized so easily it’s not the same as like having fate favor you) rather than something more generic, encompassing, and equalizable like metaphysical aspects and then imposing your will on those neutral aspects then it’s sorta tough luck if they rely on very specific stuff that only applies to the verse. Not really an applicable ability they have outside of the verse in my eyes.

The thing is, this isn't an issue exclusive to Undertale. Similar cases exist in verses like DDLC or Imscared or practically every game-driven fiction, where game-specific mechanics are fundamental aspects of the setting. We don't ignore those mechanics simply because they're complex or don't neatly fit into a conventional battle format.

Undertale can be treated in much the same way. Most of these mechanics can be interpreted through things like Info Hax, Law Hax, Data Hax, and similar abilities. As such, bringing those mechanics into the arena (which is what most VS Threads already do anyway otherwise, the characters wouldn't even be able to use their abilities, since there would be nothing for them to manipulate in the first place) is the most reasonable approach.