Regarding the Mechanic of Undertale

[Jepilstiltskin]

This thread concerns the metafictional mechanics of the Undertale (and Deltarune) universe. Some people have expressed concerns regarding how these mechanics should apply in VS Threads. I don't blame them, as this is a fairly complex topic that deserves a thorough explanation. Since I recently made a revision regarding Sans in relation to this system, I'd like to explain my reasoning as clearly as possible.

This shouldn't be an especially long thread, and I hope it won't require its own dedicated page (though I will propose a possible solution at the end). That would be a lot of homework for me and I simply don't think it's worth the time. So, back on the topic. The main issue is that our understanding of Undertale's mechanics is currently scattered across multiple discussions. We know the mechanics are canon. We know they can be used by certain characters. What remains unclear is how they should function outside the verse in VS debates. As a result, the reasoning is spread across numerous threads, making it difficult to track consistently.

To put it simply, the mechanics are a fundamental aspect of Undertale's setting. Characters can interact with them to a significant degree, whether through accessing the underlying code of the mechanics (to the point he also breaks the turn-based mechanic in the fight), manipulating the storyline, or destroying the game's files. All of this is interchangable with the system as they are built on the same thing. I won't go into exhaustive detail here since the cosmology blog already covers much of this (SAVE/LOAD mechanics, menu interactions, and so on). The important point is that these mechanics are canon and fundamental to the verse itself.

Because of that, they should remain applicable in VS Threads under Verse Equalization. If these mechanics are fundamental to how the verse operates, then they would be assumed to exist within the battle environment just as other fundamental aspects of a verse are. Otherwise, it becomes difficult to explain how characters are supposed to use abilities that explicitly rely on them.

For example, it would be strange to argue that Frisk loses access to SAVE, Omega Flowey loses access to file manipulation. Sans being unable to use his Clairvoyance and perceive his opponents LOVE and EXP (as listed on his profile), or Chara loses access to their erasure abilities simply because those mechanics are not enforced in the battle arena. Heck, Chara wouldn't even be in the arena given they are a representation of these aspect of the mechanic. These abilities are derived from the verse's fundamental structure.

We even have clarification regarding the nature of these mechanics through Gerson's statements. He suggests that exploiting the system is a matter of knowledge. If a character understands the rules well enough, they can take advantage of them. This helps explain why characters such as Sans can perform magical nonsense despite the setting such as Deltarune lack magical properties. Most residents of Undertale do not possess this knowledge and therefore fight normally. They dodge, move, and engage in combat as one would expect, despite existing within a system that contains these underlying mechanics. The only instances where we can move freely and fight an opponent in real time is when Omega Flowey ****** it all up by rewriting the game's files and consequently affect the mechanic overall. So, it's pretty clear that all of these turn-based thing is relevant and is part of the whole mechanic scheme.

Because of this, the application to VS Threads appears relatively straightforward. Under Verse Equalization, the mechanics exist because they are a fundamental part of the verse. Characters who can manipulate or exploit those mechanics should retain the ability to do so. Meanwhile, opponents would generally perceive the battle as a normal fight, much like the majority of Undertale's own residents do.

The mechanics still exist regardless of whether the opponent is aware of them. Consequently, characters who understand them gain an advantage. Sans is perhaps the clearest example of this, as he possesses extensive knowledge of the system and consistently exploits it.

Under this interpretation, if Sans were placed in a crossover battle, the turn-based framework would still exist from his perspective due to Verse Equalization. The opponent, however, would perceive the fight normally. This discrepancy in awareness would grant Sans an advantage, as he understands and can exploit aspects of the battle that his opponent does not recognize. The same logic would apply to any Undertale character who possesses sufficient knowledge of the mechanics. In this case, we're not “enforcing” (because surprisingly this would be unfair without justification) the opponent, but rather that the mechanic is already present in the arena and is available for Undertale's character to manipulate.

---

Proposed Solutions

A. Profile Note

Add a note to the profiles of characters who possess awareness of the mechanics. The note would explain that Undertale's mechanics remain applicable in VS Threads under Verse Equalization, allowing knowledgeable characters to exploit them. The mechanics would affect the battle from the user's perspective, even if the opponent remains unaware of them.

Agree:

B. Case-by-Case Application

Similar to Option A, but with stricter limitations. The mechanics would apply unless the opponent is explicitly established to exist outside the relevant framework being manipulated (such as information, data structures, files, etc.). This would be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

Agree:

C. GET OUT!!!

Reject the entire premise and treat Undertale's mechanics as inapplicable outside the verse.

Agree:

 

[Armorchompy]

Not everything needs to be indexed. Sometimes it's okay to look at something and say "I have no idea how to treat this in a way that's logical, true to the behavior of the verse and not batshit insane". Trying to act like some of Undertale's more meta aspects are a long list of obtuse, byzantine powers that can be applicable outside of the verse's mechanics (but not in a way that characters from other verses can counter) has clearly just led to confusion and disagreement and isn't really true to how combat plays out in the verse, not to mention it's all reliant on some pretty specific interpretations of the canon and a very fine line being walked with Verse Equalization.

Either throw out the P&A that's based on messing with the battle system, or keep it but ban any character who has these abilities from vs matches. As it is they're clearly being twisted to some really bizarre conclusions.

 

[ShionAH]

isn't really true to how combat plays out in the verse, not to mention it's all reliant on some pretty specific interpretations of the canon

Explain? Game mechanics and battle mechanics are clearly canon in UT from statements and narrative, I think the monsters all should just have the battle box in their kit as a universal system

This should be a staff thread and Idk why OP did it when I was going to do it... whatever

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Not everything needs to be indexed. Sometimes it's okay to look at something and say "I have no idea how to treat this in a way that's logical, true to the behavior of the verse and not batshit insane". Trying to act like some of Undertale's more meta aspects are a long list of obtuse, byzantine powers that can be applicable outside of the verse's mechanics (but not in a way that characters from other verses can counter) has clearly just led to confusion and disagreement and isn't really true to how combat plays out in the verse, not to mention it's all reliant on some pretty specific interpretations of the canon and a very fine line being walked with Verse Equalization.

Either throw out the P&A that's based on messing with the battle system, or keep it but ban any character who has these abilities from vs matches. As it is they're clearly being twisted to some really bizarre conclusions.

This is true, Undertale is quite complex and often ends up causing a lot of confusion on this wiki. However, I think it would be a bit unfair and somewhat dishonest to exclude it purely on that basis. Given that the verse clearly presents these mechanics as real, fundamental thing within its own framework, I don't see why they shouldn't be accounted for and considered viable under Verse Equalization. Imagine if your position is to be taken as a true ruling, then we would have Omega Flowey with nothing special but his big body. Chara on the other hand, wouldn't even be able to fight at all since they're a specific mechanic within the verse. That's even more “bizzare” and problematic.

Noted, I understand your position, but this thread needs a clear, objective ruling on how we should treat them based on the possible solutions I outlined in the OP.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

This should be a staff thread and Idk why OP did it when I was going to do it... whatever

I created this because some of the counter-arguments for it were being thrown at me, and I have discussed this with @Rikimarox2 on his wall that it needed to be addressed. So I did.

If you have any form of argumentation or evidence that can help this thread, feel free to share it in my DM. I may include it and edit the OP accordingly.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Snip

I was initially kind of agreeing with this. However, I do understand that would be kind of unfair since the verse explicitly relies on them to do their shenanigans. Though I would like to point out that this is essentially just Info Manip, Law Manip, and something else.

Also, I suggest messaging @ActuallySpaceMan42 to comment here, they're rather active iirc.

Anyways, what I mostly have strive with is assuming that the System, which although fundamental, to somehow override SBA when it comes to a winning condition. I believe you already know what I mean, that is, Sans (or if there are any other character) leaving the battle by manipulating the system, and the System assumes it is a win despite this being considered a SELF-BFR rather than a normal winning condition. What's killing me is the fact that this pretty much does nothing to the character they are fighting, since the system mostly just points them at fighting nobody/nothingness, and Sans or another character just leaving. How that would be a winning condition is beyond me. I'd like some opinions on this, especially from staff, as it seems rather extreme or just violating the entire purpose of a vsbattle.

I get assuming the System is fundamental, but taking it to this level seems quite extreme imo.

Also, I would like some clarifications here;

Because of this, the application to VS Threads appears relatively straightforward. Under Verse Equalization, the mechanics exist because they are a fundamental part of the verse. Characters who can manipulate or exploit those mechanics should retain the ability to do so. Meanwhile, opponents would generally perceive the battle as a normal fight, much like the majority of Undertale's own residents do.

B. Case-by-Case Application

Similar to Option A, but with stricter limitations. The mechanics would apply unless the opponent is explicitly established to exist outside the relevant framework being manipulated (such as information, data structures, files, etc.). This would be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

What do you exactly mean here? IMO I don't think just a character that basically has the equivalent of Aca (Type 5) or NEP to be the only thing exempt from the law shenanigans here. Personally, I believe someone who has resistance to something like, Law Manip and Info Manip, should be able to pretty much exempt themselves from this rule or (which I believe is better) characters who have law manip and info manip should be exempt from this since they'd logically be able to manipulate these things, and have no major effect on them, so they wouldn't be subject to the system.

Furthermore, if a character in their perception is basically fighting normally like a normal Undertale resident, I assume that would mean they are also allowed to dodge attacks and such, rather than just tanking the attacks with no way to dodge like I'd believe was currently assumed?

Though, I'm still personally unsure. I think more staff opinions would be appreciated, and other UT fans especially (Maybe GodlyCharamander? I recall them to be pretty reliable back in the day).

Also, for proposals, I'm mostly fine with a note at the bottom mentioning the whole set of abilities/fundamental aspects. Or, like Shion stated, mention the shenanigans of the verse in a box in the PnA of the characters.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Anyways, what I mostly have strive with is assuming that the System, which although fundamental, to somehow override SBA when it comes to a winning condition. I believe you already know what I mean, that is, Sans (or if there are any other character) leaving the battle by manipulating the system, and the System assumes it is a win despite this being considered a SELF-BFR rather than a normal winning condition. What's killing me is the fact that this pretty much does nothing to the character they are fighting, since the system mostly just points them at fighting nobody/nothingness, and Sans or another character just leaving. How that would be a winning condition is beyond me. I'd like some opinions on this, especially from staff, as it seems rather extreme or just violating the entire purpose of a vsbattle.

It doesn't override SBA, that's the part you're misunderstanding. We're not enforcing the system as a universal rule that dictates how every VS Thread must operate. Rather, it's a fundamental aspect of the arena being brought over from Undertale, much like any other verse brings its own foundational elements, such as plot-related mechanics, information-based systems, or other core aspects of its setting. The system in Undertale is part of the verse's underlying framework. Manipulating or exploiting that framework is consistently shown to be effective within the story, and therefore it should be taken into account in VS matches. Excluding it would be both unfair and unfaithful to the source material, especially considering that many abilities in Undertale function through interactions with that system.

And I've already explained this before to you, Sans isn't winning by simply leaving. There's more nuance to it than that, just as there is with his awareness of the system itself. It's not an instant win. The outcome still depends on the opponent's response. The idea is that the opponent ends up fleeing the battle rather than Sans. That's what results in Sans winning. To put it simply, the one who ultimately leaves the fight is the opponent, not Sans.

What do you exactly mean here? IMO I don't think just a character that basically has the equivalent of Aca (Type 5) or NEP to be the only thing exempt from the law shenanigans here. Personally, I believe someone who has resistance to something like, Law Manip and Info Manip, should be able to pretty much exempt themselves from this rule or (which I believe is better) characters who have law manip and info manip should be exempt from this since they'd logically be able to manipulate these things, and have no major effect on them, so they wouldn't be subject to the system.

What I mean by “outside” is that the character is explicitly shown to be immune to, or lacking, aspects that correspond to Undertale's system, things like Information, Data, Text, and similar mechanics. I'm not saying they need to have Acausality (Type 5) or NEP, simply lacking those aspects or being immune to them would be enough.

And I don't think resistance alone is sufficient. Granted, a character might resist the effects of the system (assuming they do have the resistance to all of the aspect aforementioned) when it's actively manipulated by someone like Chara or Flowey, but that doesn't automatically make them aware of the system, nor does it place them outside its scope. It's the same reason why having Resistance to Causality doesn't automatically grant Acausality (Type 4). The character is still part of the overall cause-and-effect framework, they simply resist certain interactions within it.

This is especially relevant because some characters, like Sans, aren't explicitly manipulating those aspects in the first place. Rather, they're exploiting the system instead of directly manipulating their opponent. Resistance would therefore be ineffective against that approach. And, as far as I recall, resistance is treated on a case-by-case basis on the Hax page anyway, it doesn't automatically apply to every form of hax unless the interaction is specifically justified.

Furthermore, if a character in their perception is basically fighting normally like a normal Undertale resident, I assume that would mean they are also allowed to dodge attacks and such, rather than just tanking the attacks with no way to dodge like I'd believe was currently assumed?

Oh yes, they're allowed to, absolutely. But that doesn't negate the fact that the system still governs the fight and dictates how they can operate. In this case, someone with sufficient awareness would still perceive the encounter as a turn-based system rather than a conventional fight.

This is evident from how Sans acknowledges that he can dodge, something that should be completely normal within the setting itself, but not within the system's mechanics. It gives off the same vibe as, “this guy is already dead, he just doesn't know it yet”, minus the dead part. At its core, this is basically just an “I'm aware of a fundamental aspect of reality that you aren't” situation. Just because the opponent is weak and lacks that awareness doesn't mean we should invalidate the advantage that comes from it.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Also, for proposals, I'm mostly fine with a note at the bottom mentioning the whole set of abilities/fundamental aspects. Or, like Shion stated, mention the shenanigans of the verse in a box in the PnA of the characters.

I take it you're fine with Option B?

 

[StrymULTRA]

This should be a staff thread and Idk why OP did it when I was going to do it... whatever

It definitely shouldn't.

Anyway.

I don't really agree with the premise. The idea of the OP is trying to force things in other verses simply because they exist in Undertale, when it doesn't have to be the case.

To put it simply, the mechanics are a fundamental aspect of Undertale's setting. Characters can interact with them to a significant degree, whether through accessing the underlying code of the mechanics (to the point he also breaks the turn-based mechanic in the fight), manipulating the storyline, or destroying the game's files. All of this is interchangable with the system as they are built on the same thing. I won't go into exhaustive detail here since the cosmology blog already covers much of this (SAVE/LOAD mechanics, menu interactions, and so on). The important point is that these mechanics are canon and fundamental to the verse itself.

Because of that, they should remain applicable in VS Threads under Verse Equalization. If these mechanics are fundamental to how the verse operates, then they would be assumed to exist within the battle environment just as other fundamental aspects of a verse are. Otherwise, it becomes difficult to explain how characters are supposed to use abilities that explicitly rely on them.

For example, it would be strange to argue that Frisk loses access to SAVE, Omega Flowey loses access to file manipulation. Sans being unable to use his Clairvoyance and perceive his opponents LOVE and EXP (as listed on his profile), or Chara loses access to their erasure abilities simply because those mechanics are not enforced in the battle arena. Heck, Chara wouldn't even be in the arena given they are a representation of these aspect of the mechanic. These abilities are derived from the verse's fundamental structure.

This is, indeed, stuff we already know and already did apply. I do not understand why bringing this up.

We even have clarification regarding the nature of these mechanics through Gerson's statements. He suggests that exploiting the system is a matter of knowledge. If a character understands the rules well enough, they can take advantage of them. This helps explain why characters such as Sans can perform magical nonsense despite the setting such as Deltarune lack magical properties. Most residents of Undertale do not possess this knowledge and therefore fight normally. They dodge, move, and engage in combat as one would expect, despite existing within a system that contains these underlying mechanics. The only instances where we can move freely and fight an opponent in real time is when Omega Flowey ****** it all up by rewriting the game's files and consequently affect the mechanic overall. So, it's pretty clear that all of these turn-based thing is relevant and is part of the whole mechanic scheme.

Because of this, the application to VS Threads appears relatively straightforward. Under Verse Equalization, the mechanics exist because they are a fundamental part of the verse. Characters who can manipulate or exploit those mechanics should retain the ability to do so. Meanwhile, opponents would generally perceive the battle as a normal fight, much like the majority of Undertale's own residents do.

The mechanics still exist regardless of whether the opponent is aware of them. Consequently, characters who understand them gain an advantage. Sans is perhaps the clearest example of this, as he possesses extensive knowledge of the system and consistently exploits it.

Under this interpretation, if Sans were placed in a crossover battle, the turn-based framework would still exist from his perspective due to Verse Equalization. The opponent, however, would perceive the fight normally. This discrepancy in awareness would grant Sans an advantage, as he understands and can exploit aspects of the battle that his opponent does not recognize. The same logic would apply to any Undertale character who possesses sufficient knowledge of the mechanics. In this case, we're not “enforcing” (because surprisingly this would be unfair without justification) the opponent, but rather that the mechanic is already present in the arena and is available for Undertale's character to manipulate.

The very idea behind verse equalization is that things with similar enough mechanics can be shared between verses because of interpretations on how this would work in that other verse would be rather straightfoward, and we already do that:

• SOUL hax is indeed equalized with other verses by using the information we have in-universe to make them as compatible as possible in cross-verse despite the lack of human characters across both UT and DR.
• SAVE and LOAD mechanics are agreed to be both Timeline Travel and Time Travel as other verses use similar enough mechanics to interpret that (Dragon Ball being an example)
• Manipulating/erasing files is accepted as Information Manipulation Type 2 as that's how most of these meta-verses which involve the manipulation of the actual game files work, given that's how the ability works in the first place.

I could go on but I think you've grasped the idea. If a thing is technically not compatible with another verse simply because it'd be too complicated to introduce in another verse that doesn't run with it (ie: Sans attacking the buttons or the very Battle Box itself), then we just don't index them as otherwise we'd be forced to essentially ban cross-verse fights against anything that isn't coincidentally super-similar to UTDR in mechanics.

Not to mention that such an attempt was basically rejected had the OP not abandoned the thread, due to how inconsistent this stuff is anyways.

Add a note to the profiles of characters who possess awareness of the mechanics. The note would explain that Undertale's mechanics remain applicable in VS Threads under Verse Equalization, allowing knowledgeable characters to exploit them. The mechanics would affect the battle from the user's perspective, even if the opponent remains unaware of them.

This is literally something already mentioned in Sans' 4th wall break, which is combat applicable for literally what you said. Not to mention that Asriel Dreemurr, in none of his forms manipulates turns in the ways Sans does so... what's this thread trying to accomplish?

Either throw out the P&A that's based on messing with the battle system, or keep it but ban any character who has these abilities from vs matches. As it is they're clearly being twisted to some really bizarre conclusions.

I do not think either is necessary, we already did manage to find a compromise with these long ago, no need to be this dramatic.

 

[ShionAH]

This is literally something already mentioned in Sans' 4th wall break, which is combat applicable for literally what you said. Not to mention that Asriel Dreemurr, in none of his forms manipulates turns in the ways Sans does so... what's this thread trying to accomplish?

Pretty sure it’s to decide HOW combat applicable it is

So like can Sans always attack first since he takes his turn unlike basically every other monster, can he attack through your “mind” or UI, is he able to just force you out the fight like seen in the pacifist fight, can he just incon with his special attack? Its clear this is an ability he has and will utilize but its hard to say how it would work in crossverse threads. I personally think it should all be allowed but applied to the context of a crossover, so like it would work better against other game characters and stuff

I believe thats the point of the thread, like I said this thread should have been specifically for Sans and more of a discussion than CRT which is why I wish OP didn’t jump the gun

 

[StrymULTRA]

So like can Sans always attack first since he takes his turn unlike basically every other monster, can he attack through your “mind” or UI, is he able to just force you out the fight like seen in the pacifist fight, can he just incon with his special attack? Its clear this is an ability he has and will utilize but its hard to say how it would work in crossverse threads. I personally think it should all be allowed but applied to the context of a crossover, so like it would work better against other game characters and stuff

I hope you do realize that this implies that monsters that aren't Sans canonically are completely unable to attack first due to this rule. Even Asriel doesn't do that.

 

[ShionAH]

I hope you do realize that this implies that monsters that aren't Sans canonically are completely unable to attack first due to this rule. Even Asriel doesn't do that.

Abusing the game mechanics is part of Sans kit but abiding by the game mechanics is not a weakness the monsters have

 

[StrymULTRA]

Abusing the game mechanics is part of Sans kit but abiding by the game mechanics is not a weakness the monsters have just lack of resistance

Frisk also lacks resistance, but always acts first, this is why I mentioned that Monsters would be genuinely done in any cross-verse matchup.

Given the thread on SOUL hax, we technically do equalize baseline non-UT opponents to LV 1 Frisk given they're the most basic human we know that isn't powered by UT-only mechanics like LV or DT, and LV 1 Frisk is also always acting first regardless of the opponent.

 

[GPR_Shadow]

Asriel doesn't do that.

Ngl, I think Asriel just want to aura farm a lil bit with his new form

I mean Omega Flowey just break the turn based rule.

Following the discussion.

Edit : Oh yeah, Flowey also have the first turn in the very beginning of a game

Idk if that's count

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

I don't really agree with the premise. The idea of the OP is trying to force things in other verses simply because they exist in Undertale, when it doesn't have to be the case.

For the third time, I'm not trying to force these rules onto the opponent. Rather, these rules already exist within the battlefield itself, and Undertale characters can exploit or manipulate them.

The opponent would still act and fight normally, just like most residents of Undertale do, without any awareness of the turn-based system. Meanwhile, someone who is sufficiently aware and knowledgeable (such as Sans) would still perceive the battle through that turn-based framework. This way, we're not downgrading the opponent, and we're still staying faithful to the source material.

This is, indeed, stuff we already know and already did apply. I do not understand why bringing this up.

I know. I even said in the OP that I'm not going to go through every detail since it's already covered elsewhere. What I provided here is more of a summary, because most people don't seem to like the response of “it's already explained on the profile” like how @Rikimarox2 pointed out.

They want everything laid out in front of them, basically being spoonfed. Not that I particularly enjoy doing that or anything, I'm basically forced to.

The very idea behind verse equalization is that things with similar enough mechanics can be shared between verses because of interpretations on how this would work in that other verse would be rather straightfoward, and we already do that:

• SOUL hax is indeed equalized with other verses by using the information we have in-universe to make them as compatible as possible in cross-verse despite the lack of human characters across both UT and DR.
• SAVE and LOAD mechanics are agreed to be both Timeline Travel and Time Travel as other verses use similar enough mechanics to interpret that (Dragon Ball being an example)
• Manipulating/erasing files is accepted as Information Manipulation Type 2 as that's how most of these meta-verses which involve the manipulation of the actual game files work, given that's how the ability works in the first place.

I could go on but I think you've grasped the idea. If a thing is technically not compatible with another verse simply because it'd be too complicated to introduce in another verse that doesn't run with it (ie: Sans attacking the buttons or the very Battle Box itself), then we just don't index them as otherwise we'd be forced to essentially ban cross-verse fights against anything that isn't coincidentally super-similar to UTDR in mechanics.

Not to mention that such an attempt was basically rejected had the OP not abandoned the thread, due to how inconsistent this stuff is anyways.

Sans's case is essentially that, except it isn't actually manipulation. It's an indirect exploit that technically produces the same effect. So what we have here isn't some entirely new ability. It's closer to Information Manipulation (and other aspects of the mechanic), except it's less about manipulating and more about exploiting knowledge of how said aspects work. What I mean is that, in a crossover matchup, this would be treated as an information-based advantage (and other aspects, of course) rather than some brand-new power category.

That way, we can remain faithful to how Sans actually operates instead of forcing a different interpretation onto the feat.

This is literally something already mentioned in Sans' 4th wall break, which is combat applicable for literally what you said. Not to mention that Asriel Dreemurr, in none of his forms manipulates turns in the ways Sans does so... what's this thread trying to accomplish?

I wouldn't be creating this thread if there weren't genuine concerns about it, man. If we're being honest, I genuinely don't want to be doing this.

Anyway, I don't think the comparison with Asriel is really fair in this case. In his Hyperdeath form, he's quite literally playing with us because he believes we're Chara. That's a very different mindset from how he fights in his Omega form, where he goes all out and completely breaks the mechanics. The feat of “there is no turn-based system anymore” by itself already overrides what Sans has in his arsenal. That's precisely why I brought this up, the presence or absence of the turn-based mechanics has an actual impact on the battlefield, just as Shion pointed out.

I hope you do realize that this implies that monsters that aren't Sans canonically are completely unable to attack first due to this rule. Even Asriel doesn't do that.

It's really just the illusion of choice. Even in Undertale, most characters do fight normally without any awareness of the turn-based mechanics, simply because they don't know those mechanics exist.

I believe the same logic can apply to crossover matchups. The underlying idea is essentially the same, the system exists, but the participants are not necessarily aware of it.

And like I said before, I don't think Asriel is a fair comparison here. In that fight, he's explicitly playing with us and genuinely believes we're Chara, which puts the entire encounter in a very different context from how other characters interact with the mechanics.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Sans's case is essentially that, except it isn't actually manipulation. It's an indirect exploit that technically produces the same effect. So what we have here isn't some entirely new ability. It's closer to Information Manipulation (and other aspects of the mechanic), except it's less about manipulating and more about exploiting knowledge of how said aspects work. What I mean is that, in a crossover matchup, this would be treated as an information-based advantage (and other aspects, of course) rather than some brand-new power category.

That way, we can remain faithful to how Sans actually operates instead of forcing a different interpretation onto the feat.

So, if you agree already with the idea that Sans is not manipulating anything, what's the goal of your CRT?

What you're saying is already accepted long ago lol.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

So, if you agree already with the idea that Sans is not manipulating anything, what's the goal of your CRT?

What you're saying is already accepted long ago lol.

The idea is that the mechanics of Undertale would exist simultaneously on the battlefield through Verse Equalization, allowing Undertale characters (especially those who can access or exploit the system) to fight with those mechanics in play.

I created this thread because most people seem confused about how Sans would actually fight under those conditions, considering that the majority of his win conditions are directly tied to the system itself. We know these mechanics are combat-applicable within Undertale. The question isn't whether they can be used in combat, but HOW applicable they would function in a VS match. That's the part that's unclear, and that's precisely why I made this thread.

Brother, this is no fun to me, but this is indeed a real problem and @ActuallySpaceMan42 seems to think the same.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

So, if you agree already with the idea that Sans is not manipulating anything, what's the goal of your CRT?

What you're saying is already accepted long ago lol.

It's kinda akin to those characters whose martial arts lets them bend space or something stupid like that, should that character not have Spatial Manipulation cause technically speaking, anyone from their verse could do the same if they moved their arms the right way? Nah, that'd be kinda stupid.

Likewise, acting like sans can't pull off the big climax of his fight where he forces a stalemate by not taking his turn, and this is like a gigantic serious moment, feels like a disservice to the character. At that point, are we indexing sans from the game or the one from those 2016 animations, ya know?

 

[StrymULTRA]

The idea is that the mechanics of Undertale would exist simultaneously on the battlefield through Verse Equalization, allowing Undertale characters (especially those who can access or exploit the system) to fight with those mechanics in play.

Which is really just Sans.

Yes, you mentioned Omega Flowey, but how do you even interpret him "breaking the turn system" in cross verse? It only changed it to a real time battle, which only would have basically no effect in cross verse.

I created this thread because most people seem confused about how Sans would actually fight under those conditions, considering that the majority of his win conditions are directly tied to the system itself. We know these mechanics are combat-applicable within Undertale. The question isn't whether they can be used in combat, but HOW applicable they would function in a VS match. That's the part that's unclear, and that's precisely why I made this thread.

Just explaining better the 4th wall break on his P&A would've done the trick instead of doing this which clearly caused this confusion lol.

It's kinda akin to a character whose martial arts lets them bend space or something stupid like that, should that character not have Spatial Manipulation cause technically speaking, anyone from their verse could do the same if they moved their arms the right way? Nah, that'd be kinda stupid.

If said spatial manipulation isn't inherently a property of the character/technique/power system or whatever, but instead a simple verse mechanic, then yeah, it wouldn't have been indexed as such.

Likewise, acting like sans can't pull off the big climax of his fight where he forces a stalemate by not taking his turn, and this is like a gigantic serious moment, feels like a disservice to the character. At that point, are we indexing sans from the game or the one from those 2016 animations, ya know?

And none here is arguing that? Again, already on his profile.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Which is really just Sans.

Yes, you mentioned Omega Flowey, but how do you even interpret him "breaking the turn system" in cross verse? It only changed it to a real time battle, which only would have basically no effect in cross verse.

I know, my guy. But a lot of people (especially normies who don't really follow Undertale) don't.

I'm not saying it has a direct effect on the battle itself. What I'm saying is that the fact those mechanics can be destroyed at all demonstrates that they have an actual influence on the battlefield and aren't just arbitrary game abstractions. It's basically the equivalent of saying “You can't move because of this rule, but I'm going to destroy that rule so you can move. Wahahaha!” thing.

Just explaining better the 4th wall break on his P&A would've done the trick instead of doing this which clearly caused this confusion lol.

How do you suppose the wording for it? I mean the wording for the P&A section, specifically.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

If said spatial manipulation isn't inherently a property of the character/technique/power system or whatever, but instead a simple verse mechanic, then yeah, it wouldn't have been indexed as such.

What's exactly the difference between it being a martial arts technique and abuse of a verse mechanic? Like I'm not too knowledgeable on them, but I heard there's a bunch of skillgods that just do magic shit and attribute it to regular martial arts. I think Baki is famous for stuff like that.

Hell in sans' case, the "verse mechanic" argument is even weirder because we don't even have it as a verse mechanic? We don't say everyone is literally taking turns and yet sans can still somehow exploit supposedly non-existent rules to prevent us from attacking him.
Like that's the problem, if you strip away all PnAs based on UT's meta elements, sans physically can't do half the shit he does in canon.

And none here is arguing that? Again, already on his profile.

The current only Staff vote says we should remove it?

Either throw out the P&A that's based on messing with the battle system

 

[StrymULTRA]

How do you suppose the wording for it? I mean the wording for the P&A section, specifically.

You're the OP, and people are supposed to already understand from the get-go how it works from the profile. I believe that the justification is already good enough, some people being stubborn about this isn't gonna help, especially given that Sans never changed about this since years and none questioned it too much.

I don't really care about Sans' profile though, I'm commenting here mostly due to you seemingly presenting this as a verse-wide revision.

What's exactly the difference between it being a martial arts technique and abuse of a verse mechanic? Like I'm not too knowledgeable on them, but I heard there's a bunch of skillgods that just do magic shit and attribute it to regular martial arts. I think Baki is famous for stuff like that.

Hell in sans' case, the "verse mechanic" argument is even weirder because we don't even have it as a verse mechanic? We don't say everyone is literally taking turns and yet sans can still somehow exploit supposedly non-existent rules to prevent us from attacking him.
Like that's the problem, if you strip away all PnAs based on UT's meta elements, sans physically can't do half the shit he does in canon.

Thank god I never argued for any of that, given that's again on his profile.

The current only Staff vote says we should remove it?

Yeah, but it's just one lol.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

I'm going to leave this thread open for a few more days to see if there's actually any opposition to this, given that @ActuallySpaceMan42 position is still very ambiguous. After that, we can close it.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

I don't know when Verse Equalization started forcing other characters into Undertale's turn-based combat system as though they were part of the verse.

That's not the point of this thread, you might wanna re-read the OP, SpaceMan.

And, given Strym is here (especially their last reply), you could see their point and see if that changes your view.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Can OP explain what the 1st and 3rd Options would allow, and not allow sans to do during matches?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Can OP explain what the 1st and 3rd Options would allow, and not allow sans to do during matches?

Tbf I've read your convo with @Rikimarox2, and I don't even think that fleeing is a wincon lol.

No idea from where the idea even came from, especially when in-universe it's not a win either.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Tbf I've read your convo with @Rikimarox2, and I don't even think that fleeing is a wincon lol.

No idea from where the idea even came from, especially when in-universe it's not a win either.

Yeah, I'm mostly just confused by what the OP is trying to cement here.

What mechanics would they be using to their advantage?

 

[StrymULTRA]

What mechanics would they be using to their advantage?

Sans

sans is a supporting character and the Genocide Route's final boss in the video game; Undertale. He is one of the guards of Snowdin Village. Lazy and frivolous with a knack for making puns and jokes, he has no interest in capturing humans, much to the chagrin of his brother, Papyrus. Despite his...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Everything is in his 4th wall break which already does cover everything, but... wait there's also some weird shit going on there lol. I'll list my issues with it later.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Can OP explain what the 1st and 3rd Options would allow, and not allow sans to do during matches?

I'm sleepy, what do you mean by this?

 

[ShionAH]

What mechanics would they be using to their advantage?

Sans

• Can completely stop the opponent from using abilities or doing anything by not taking his turn
• He can start the fight on his own before the other person has a chance to do it themselves
• Attack into your buttons, which may or may not count as a telephatic attack but either way its a messy problem the opponent has to deal with

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Tbf I've read your convo with @Rikimarox2, and I don't even think that fleeing is a wincon lol.

No idea from where the idea even came from, especially when in-universe it's not a win either.

It isn't an automatic win per se. There are two instances where fleeing or quitting the battle is treated as a loss to the opponent and a win for Frisk. Sans being able to exploit this should, at the very least, grant him a win condition.

If you're wondering where this was accepted, it's in here.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I should have read that CRT more carefully.

For not taking his turn bit. How would that even work cross-verse? Like what's forcing the opponent not to attack?

 

[ShionAH]

For not taking his turn bit. How would that even work cross-verse? Like what's forcing the opponent not to attack

Sans special attack, they can't attack because he just doesn't let them. Its his trump card and he does it by abusing the rules of Undertale

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

I should have read that CRT more carefully.

This is why I'm asking you for clarification in the thread for the second time. More reason why I hate the equivalent of “looks good” approach in an input.

For not taking his turn bit. How would that even work cross-verse? Like what's forcing the opponent not to attack?

This:

This helps explain why characters such as Sans can perform magical nonsense despite the setting such as Deltarune lack magical properties. Most residents of Undertale do not possess this knowledge and therefore fight normally. They dodge, move, and engage in combat as one would expect, despite existing within a system that contains these underlying mechanics. The only instances where we can move freely and fight an opponent in real time is when Omega Flowey ****** it all up by rewriting the game's files and consequently affect the mechanic overall. So, it's pretty clear that all of these turn-based thing is relevant and is part of the whole mechanic scheme.

Because of this, the application to VS Threads appears relatively straightforward. Under Verse Equalization, the mechanics exist because they are a fundamental part of the verse. Characters who can manipulate or exploit those mechanics should retain the ability to do so. Meanwhile, opponents would generally perceive the battle as a normal fight, much like the majority of Undertale's own residents do.

The mechanics still exist regardless of whether the opponent is aware of them. Consequently, characters who understand them gain an advantage. Sans is perhaps the clearest example of this, as he possesses extensive knowledge of the system and consistently exploits it.

Under this interpretation, if Sans were placed in a crossover battle, the turn-based framework would still exist from his perspective due to Verse Equalization. The opponent, however, would perceive the fight normally. This discrepancy in awareness would grant Sans an advantage, as he understands and can exploit aspects of the battle that his opponent does not recognize. The same logic would apply to any Undertale character who possesses sufficient knowledge of the mechanics. In this case, we're not “enforcing” (because surprisingly this would be unfair without justification) the opponent, but rather that the mechanic is already present in the arena and is available for Undertale's character to manipulate.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Sans special attack, they can't attack because he just doesn't let them. Its his trump card and he does it by abusing the rules of Undertale

Yeah, but his opponent doesn't play via turns? And the OP just said this wasn't about enforcing the rules of Undertale onto opponents. So what's stopping them?

That feels like something that's not compatible with a match.

 

[ShionAH]

Yeah, but his opponent doesn't play via turns?

Well look on the other hand, Sans is playing with turns and abusing them. So he cannot be attacked while he is using his special attack and not letting it go

This is where I am saying something should be decided, if we remove it then its just ignoring a large kit and point of Sans' character to the point where its like we are scaling the fananimation skeleton rather than Sans himself. And then there's the question on why we'd ignore it since UT makes it clear these mechanics are actual laws the world abides by (Gerson)...

Think of it like a character using Plot Manipulation to roll back the show or whatever. Would their abilities not work against game characters because its not a show now? Obviously not because thats just ignoring a direct ability of someone because of the media difference which is simply unfair to their character as a whole. Why would we use the game media rather than the show for that situation?=Why would we use show media rather than the game for this situation? (Additionally its canon laws in this context)

So I think its better to assume Sans can use his powers the same way (special attack) but maybe assume it isn't completely taking over the rules (like instantly winning by fleeing), that way its fair and makes sense. Which is actually whats accepted right now, so at best the recent CRT should be reverted

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Yeah, but his opponent doesn't play via turns? And the OP just said this wasn't about enforcing the rules of Undertale onto opponents. So what's stopping them?

That feels like something that's not compatible with a match.

Again, it doesn't even make much sense in-universe, considering we don't even accept rn that everyone is literally taking turns in UT.
Imagine a character phases through your sword slash and then says "Haha, just like you, I become intangible after taking damage." (INV frames)
The player character can't become intangible in-canon, this does not nullify the fact that the other character just phased through your sword.

And this isn't even some throwaway gag scene, this is his special attack. It's the climax of the fight, the move his entire second phase builds toward and his last resort at stopping us. It's veeeeery integral to his Boss fight.

 

[StrymULTRA]

For not taking his turn bit. How would that even work cross-verse? Like what's forcing the opponent not to attack?

Basically, in Undertale the menu has 4 buttons, which would be the following:

• FIGHT: Any offensive action
• ACT: Any non-offensive action
• ITEM: Self-explanatory
• MERCY: Options to end the fight in a peaceful way

The turn would be interpreted as the character doing one of these actions, and if Sans never finishes his turn by doing no action at all, the opponent cannot either. Given how verse equalization allows things like Concepts and Information to co-exist despite not existing in each other's verse, it should be the same here given it's still a fundamental part of Undertale.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

The turn would be interpreted as the character doing one of these actions, and if Sans never finishes his turn by doing no action at all, the opponent cannot either. Given how verse equalization allows things like Concepts and Information to co-exist despite not existing in each other's verse, it should be the same here given it's still a fundamental part of Undertale.

But what about when the player attacks Sans during his turn? Clearly, it's not an ironclad rule, since you can still attack him. Hell, he physically stops you with telekinesis/teleportation, which wouldn't be necessary if the verse didn't allow it anyway.

 

[StrymULTRA]

But what about when the player attacks Sans during his turn? Clearly, it's not an ironclad rule, since you can still attack him. Hell, he physically stops you with telekinesis/teleportation, which wouldn't be necessary if the verse didn't allow it anyway.

Tbf this happens only during his sleep, as it doesn't before he starts to close his eyes (he DOES teleport you during the falling asleep process however).

Though I'd interpret this as also a feat of Frisk anyways as they could straight up alter their menu during a much stronger foe than Sans.