Kingdom Hearts verse wide P&A hotfix

[ThatBoiRick]

Boo! Scared ya didn’t I?

It came to our attention that a few miscellaneous abilities regarding certain aspects and abilities are outdated. Today just so happens to be a day when I’m not as lazy as usual so here we go:

New Hearts/Light/Darkness based abilities.

A few abilities are lacking from this page, so here are the ones that should be added:

Soul manipulation for both advanced Light and Darkness (Darkness being able to corrupt and control the minds of others would also count towards soul manipulation as we treat the mind and soul as synonymous terms. This has already been done with characters like Hades and Davy Jones manipulating souls with darkness.

Darkness is already stated to destroy one’s existence over time, which should include the body, the heart, and the soul, which are the aspects that make up a being in the first place. Light can also erase people from existence and we already have characters who can resist soul possession from Hover’s ghost and other spectral entities. Maleficent is also capable of controlling the minds of others).

Subjective reality for innate hearts and reality warping for advanced light and darkness. (The idea that everyone lives in the same world is a lie as the world is as many things as people need it to be. Everyone experiences and shapes their own reality based on the connections and bonds they make which gives meaning to existence. The heart holds the entire universe inside itself and can be used to recreate entire worlds off memories alone.

Law manipulation for advanced light and darkness as they are the wellsprings from which all worlds and the [differing] laws that govern them are born from. Organization 13 was able to influence the laws of Toy Box and grant the toys abilities and powers they wouldn’t normally have, such as buzz's laser being real.


Others

The Power of Waking should be given back to Xehanort considering he was not only aware of its uses and detrimental effects (while also implying that he too was using it), but was able to intercept Sora while he himself was actively doing it.

Darkness manipulation and Aura for Davy Jones (seen here)

Death manipulation for users of Zantetsuken (Has a chance on instantly killing foes who are either weak or when they are critically hit.). Affected pages: Sora, Riku, Terra, Zack (via his D-link), Aladdin (Via his medal) , Xehanort, Roxas, Xion.

Xehanort should gain all the abilities of each Org13 member, they all share a fragment of his heart, he’s able to conjure replicas with their abilities, and even absorbed said replicas into himself near the beginning of his actual boss fight.

Fate manipulation for Aqua, who casts a magic spell on Kairi that allows her light to link to someone who would protect her, which led to her arriving to destiny islands and meeting Sora.

Probability manipulation for a lot of people Via Happy (Snow White’s D-link ability which guarantees a crit hit), Critical boost (increases the chances of critical hits), Lucky Strike/Lucky Ring (increases item drop rate), Encounter Plus, Jackpot/Prize up, and Confetti There’s a lot of people who’d get this, including but not limited to:

Sora via critical boost
Tarzan via critical boost
Aladdin via critical boost
Peter Pan via critical boost
Beast via critical boost
Ventus via Happy and Confetti
Aqua via Happy and confetti
Terra via Confetti
Data Sora via literal good vibes
Xion via having KH1 Sora’s abilities
Roxas via having Sora’s abilities

Organization XIII members all have it when equipping certain items, which universally includes the Critical Sun ring and a fat list of other weapons that I quite frankly don’t feel like naming, I’ll drop this list of weapons that have it though.

Xehanort should also gain this ability from Terranort as well.

we have more abilities and stuff planned, however these are the ones i decided to tackle first, as always, voice them opinions!

Edit: instead of giving reality warping to manipulating hearts, it would be more fitting to give this ability to users of light and darkness. As Bob pointed out, not everyone who used reality warping did so through hearts, however they did do so with Light and Darkness.

Edit 2: The soul being synonymous to the mind was a concept thought of by users who are no longer active and therefore shouldn’t be argued. Darkness can still control souls as it did with Scar’s ghost

Agree with everything: 5 @Eseseso @Bobsican, @TheKingStrategist13, @AsterReal, @KingTempest

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Probability manipulation for a lot of people Via Happy (Snow White’s D-link ability which guarantees a crit hit), Critical boost (increases the chances of critical hits), Lucky Strike/Lucky Ring (increases item drop rate), Encounter Plus, Jackpot/Prize up, and Confetti There’s a lot of people who’d get this, including but not limited to:

Sora via critical boost
Tarzan via critical boost
Aladdin via critical boost
Peter Pan via critical boost
Beast via critical boost
Ventus via Happy and Confetti
Aqua via Happy and confetti
Terra via Confetti
Data Sora via literal good vibes
Xion via having KH1 Sora’s abilities
Roxas via having Sora’s abilities

Organization XIII members all have it when equipping certain items, which universally includes the Critical Sun ring and a fat list of other weapons that I quite frankly don’t feel like naming, I’ll drop this list of weapons that have it though.

Xehanort should also gain this ability from Terranort as well.

we have more abilities and stuff planned, however these are the ones i decided to tackle first, as always, voice them opinions!

Riku should also have it via weapon's according to the Days List you linked. Since he isn't a Org XIII member I feel he should be mentioned individually for the sake of avoiding semantics. And if we're considering the universally equippable rings, Donald, Goofy, and Mickey also all are applicable.

 

[Bobsican]

The powers themselves seem fine but I'm a bit unsure on how far the inheritance is being applied for the Reality Warping, given that the whole plot point of CoM and Coded on that regard clarifies that the cards of Castle Oblivion are still a factor for this kind of stuff, meaning that it's not an ability inherently obtained by merely manipulating a heart, as that external factor is also required, I could see that working if it's clarified to be limited while within Castle Oblivion, however.

The Subjective Reality seems nice on paper, but the proposal covers everything but how useful it is in practice, which should probably be expanded on as to ease its justification for those that use it in-character.

Regarding Zantetsuken, I'd want to ask what we'd do with the Zantetsu Prime ability, as it implies that the Death Manip isn't an innate attribute of the move.

I'd think that more proof for souls and minds being equivalent in the verse would be ideal for the proof of KH Darkness users having the capability to manipulate that.

Everything else seems fine to me.

 

[ThatBoiRick]

Riku should also have it via weapon's according to the Days List you linked. Since he isn't a Org XIII member I feel he should be mentioned individually for the sake of avoiding semantics. And if we're considering the universally equippable rings, Donald, Goofy, and Mickey also all are applicable.

in my defense, there’s a lot of characters that have it.

@Bobsican

The powers themselves seem fine but I'm a bit unsure on how far the inheritance is being applied for the Reality Warping, given that the whole plot point of CoM and Coded on that regard clarifies that the cards of Castle Oblivion are still a factor for this kind of stuff, meaning that it's not an ability inherently obtained by merely manipulating a heart, as that external factor is also required, I could see that working if it's clarified to be limited while within Castle Oblivion, however.

eh? Xemnas seems to already have it on his profile so there are cases where it isn’t solely caused by Castle Oblivion. Theres also the fact that most characters haven’t really shown enough mastery over manipulating other’s hearts to do so besides Xehanort and power of waking users.

The Subjective Reality seems nice on paper, but the proposal covers everything but how useful it is in practice, which should probably be expanded on as to ease its justification for those that use it in-character.

Most in-character examples of this are just them existing by default. It’s not really combat applicable until we find cases where it is.

I'd think that more proof for souls and minds being equivalent in the verse would be ideal for the proof of KH Darkness users having the capability to manipulate that.

Is Scar’s ghost being manipulated by darkness proof enough? Aside from that we have Xehanort referring to the third aspect of Terra’s existence as his mind instead of usual soul description.

Edit: for Zantetsu Prime I doubt it disqualifies the base move form having it as it still insta kills in KH1 and BBS, if anything we might have it layer it.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

in my defense, there’s a lot of characters that have it.

Of course, no worries, just wanted to point that out so we don't have to retread this at a later date

Edit: for Zantetsu Prime I doubt it disqualifies the base move form having it as it still insta kills in KH1 and BBS, if anything we might have it layer it.

Considering Data Sora is the only character who seemingly has this limitation (outside of ig KH2's Limit Form where it's just part of the combo iirc), it's at worst likely that he is just worse at using the ability than the other characters, and at best it may be a sort of layer's situation

 

[King_of_nothing13]

Law manipulation for advanced light and darkness as they are the wellsprings from which all worlds and the [differing] laws that govern them are born from. Organization 13 was able to influence the laws of Toy Box and grant the toys abilities and powers they wouldn’t normally have, such as buzz's laser being real.

on this topic you can also argue this for keyblades via aqua turning the land of departure into castle oblivion and how it works with the cards and Marluxa saying Donald and goofy are at the mercy of the cards and the law of the castle requires they be turned into cards

granted erases says "now that you are a Master, there is a secret you must know" implying only official Masters are allowed to learn this ability so sora and terra wouldn't get it despite being on that level of power

 

[Bobsican]

eh? Xemnas seems to already have it on his profile so there are cases where it isn’t solely caused by Castle Oblivion. Theres also the fact that most characters haven’t really shown enough mastery over manipulating other’s hearts to do so besides Xehanort and power of waking users.

The thing is that Xemnas's use of it doesn't seem to be related to manipulating a heart to begin with, so that'd leave no pertinent incidents of this stuff outside Castle Oblivion for this sort of claim.

Most in-character examples of this are just them existing by default. It’s not really combat applicable until we find cases where it is.

The closest that comes to mind is Joshua combining that with his powers to revive the TWEWY cast from erasure from the real world they came from.

Is Scar’s ghost being manipulated by darkness proof enough? Aside from that we have Xehanort referring to the third aspect of Terra’s existence as his mind instead of usual soul description

Would need a more specific statement TBH, as much Zero is a ghost yet isn't a being of darkness. The other 2 links are broken.

Edit: for Zantetsu Prime I doubt it disqualifies the base move form having it as it still insta kills in KH1 and BBS, if anything we might have it layer it.

Considering Data Sora is the only character who seemingly has this limitation (outside of ig KH2's Limit Form where it's just part of the combo iirc), it's at worst likely that he is just worse at using the ability than the other characters, and at best it may be a sort of layer's situation

This also happens in KHIII where Zantetsuken is just a part of a combo and if anything it's even weaker than in KHII.

on this topic you can also argue this for keyblades via aqua turning the land of departure into castle oblivion and how it works with the cards and Marluxa saying Donald and goofy are at the mercy of the cards and the law of the castle requires they be turned into cards

granted erases says "now that you are a Master, there is a secret you must know" implying only official Masters are allowed to learn this ability so sora and terra wouldn't get despite being on that level of power

I'm unsure on this applying to all (proper) Keyblade Masters as Land of Departure hasn't been around since the start, meaning that proper Keyblade Masters like the Foretellers wouldn't have that, I'd think that it'd be something to better list directly on the respective pages.

Also, the rings in Days at this pace may as well become an equipment page TBH, do note that Mickey, Donald, Goofy, Sora and Riku can't really have them as they can't buy that stuff from the black coated Moogle, as much they aren't a part of the Organization, or well, a part of the plot of Days does involve Riku infiltrating them, so he may be allowed to have them with the rest of the Org as they were technically accessible to him.

 

[King_of_nothing13]

I'm unsure on this applying to all (proper) Keyblade Masters as Land of Departure hasn't been around since the start, meaning that proper Keyblade Masters like the Foretellers wouldn't have that, I'd think that it'd be something to better list directly on the respective pages.

Yeah that's fair and I agree

 

[ThatBoiRick]

The thing is that Xemnas's use of it doesn't seem to be related to manipulating a heart to begin with, so that'd leave no pertinent incidents of this stuff outside Castle Oblivion for this sort of claim.

oh, what about illusion users like Zexion and Ava alongside PoW users? They would also count for both subjective reality and reality warping especially considering the latter’s status as a high tier Keyblade user.

The closest that comes to mind is Joshua combining that with his powers to revive the TWEWY cast from erasure from the real world they came from.

The implication seems to be that Sora and Riku helped bring them back into existence by bonding and connecting with them.

Would need a more specific statement TBH, as much Zero is a ghost yet isn't a being of darkness. The other 2 links are broken.

Fixed them, for some reason they were being defiant. A few quick glance at the JP translation gives us this line:
思念となってなおさからいい

Which spat out “even as a mere thought” and “even as a disembodied spirit” although it should be noted that I suck at translation and do not speak JP. Regardless, what were the justifications for them on the verse page?

This also happens in KHIII where Zantetsuken is just a part of a combo and if anything it's even weaker than in KHII.

This is tricky, gameplay wise it’s weaker but lore wise Sora would be significantly stronger by this point than his KH2 counterpart. Considering it’s literally the same attack I’d still give it death manip.

 

[Eseseso]

About time someone revised their pages properly.

As long as these have references they all look fine to me.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Law manipulation for advanced light and darkness as they are the wellsprings from which all worlds and the [differing] laws that govern them are born from. Organization 13 was able to influence the laws of Toy Box and grant the toys abilities and powers they wouldn’t normally have, such as buzz's laser being real.

The first one only applies to kingdom hearts and the second one isn't even law manipulation. Doing things that you shouldn't normally be able to do doesn't have anything to do with changing laws lol

 

[ThatBoiRick]

The first one only applies to kingdom hearts

What are you referring to?

and the second one isn't even law manipulation. Doing things that you shouldn't normally be able to do doesn't have anything to do with changing laws lol

The point is that light and darkness are what created the worlds in the first place. Each world has their own laws and therefore light and darkness created said laws. The toy’s fake abilities became real because the world was changed.

 

[Bobsican]

oh, what about illusion users like Zexion and Ava alongside PoW users? They would also count for both subjective reality and reality warping especially considering the latter’s status as a high tier Keyblade user.

For the purposes of a verse-specific P&A you'd want to be looking for further reasonings for it to be inherited by a given pool of users (in this case, going by the proposal, heart manipulators), rather than every incident of the given P&A while ignoring their known relationship (how Ava and Zexion do it isn't known to be done in this way and their capabilities aren't really shared with other heart manipulators either way, the Power of Waking is specifically a special thing quite few characters have). Otherwise this'd be like trying to claim that everyone can breathe underwater just because fish with hearts do that, which is just a plain non-sequitur.

The implication seems to be that Sora and Riku helped bring them back into existence by bonding and connecting with them.

Fixed them, for some reason they were being defiant. A few quick glance at the JP translation gives us this line:
思念となってなおさからいい

Which spat out “even as a mere thought” and “even as a disembodied spirit” although it should be noted that I suck at translation and do not speak JP. Regardless, what were the justifications for them on the verse page?

The verse page had that before I even joined the wiki, it's just remained there as no one has wanted to revise it, basically everyone from such very old days is either permabanned (@The_Everlasting, @CrossverseCrisis), or inactive for years (@Reppuzan, @Dragonmasterxyz, @The_real_cal_howard), so we're quite left with finding the details on our own at this point.

Ideally more proof for this kind of claim would be ideal, but I also see from where this line of thought comes from, so I'll remain neutral on it for now.

This is tricky, gameplay wise it’s weaker but lore wise Sora would be significantly stronger by this point than his KH2 counterpart. Considering it’s literally the same attack I’d still give it death manip.

Playing devil's advocate he gets it so late-game to the point that everyone just resisting the death junk isn't too outlandish of a claim.

 

[ThatBoiRick]

For the purposes of a verse-specific P&A you'd want to be looking for further reasonings for it to be inherited by a given pool of users (in this case, going by the proposal, heart manipulators), rather than every incident of the given P&A while ignoring their known relationship (how Ava and Zexion do it isn't known to be done in this way and their capabilities aren't really shared with other heart manipulators either way, the Power of Waking is specifically a special thing quite few characters have).

Aside from PoW there’s also the reality shift ability that Riku and Sora can still use, we could also apply it to twilight Xemnas and Xehanort. Overall it seems like only verse zenith characters could actually use it. Considering hearts are UES there’s also the supporting argument that hearts would enable all of these abilities to begin with, but reserving the universal application to only a handful of characters seems more accurate as rarely anyone is seen to be capable of doing so in a manner that isn’t passive (Like with Joshua).

The verse page had that before I even joined the wiki, it's just remained there as no one has wanted to revise it, basically everyone from such very old days is either permabanned (@The_Everlasting, @CrossverseCrisis), or inactive for years (@Reppuzan, @Dragonmasterxyz, @The_real_cal_howard), so we're quite left with finding the details on our own at this point.

Dammit, may change that then. We still have the scar feat and heartless being literal ghost so I’m not concerned in the slightest with soul manip.

Playing devil's advocate he gets it so late-game to the point that everyone just resisting the death junk isn't too outlandish of a claim.

Agree with this

 

[Bobsican]

Aside from PoW there’s also the reality shift ability that Riku and Sora can still use, we could also apply it to twilight Xemnas and Xehanort. Overall it seems like only verse zenith characters could actually use it. Considering hearts are UES there’s also the supporting argument that hearts would enable all of these abilities to begin with, but reserving the universal application to only a handful of characters seems more accurate as rarely anyone is seen to be capable of doing so in a manner that isn’t passive (Like with Joshua).

Yeah, hearts being the root of a ton of things may open the doors for hax layers, but that's a topic for another thread. With that said, while those are displays of Reality Warping and all, those aren't specifically caused by manipulating hearts either (bar the bit with Sora and Riku as that's literally a Combined Keyblade, and we already know of the direct relation between Keyblades and hearts...), you're acting like any RW is inherently a showcase of heart manip when that has to be proven for cases outside Castle Oblivion first and in the manner described in the OP (as otherwise it's clear you'll keep showcasing every RW feat in the series when most aren't pertinent to begin with, see the Power Inheritance Standards for what I mean).

In other words, it's not just about showing RW, but rather the method behind doing stuff, especially as RW is as worthless as type 3 concept manip in that it has no real innate effects nor really enhances other abilities, unless you're implying that any RW inherently comes from heart manip when it's not described as the sole method to reach this ability.

Dammit, may change that then. We still have the scar feat and heartless being literal ghost so I’m not concerned in the slightest with soul manip.

The only user that remains from such times is @Antvasima now that I remember, but I doubt that he knows the exact details.

 

[ThatBoiRick]

Yeah, hearts being the root of a ton of things may open the doors for hax layers, but that's a topic for another thread. With that said, while those are displays of Reality Warping and all, those aren't specifically caused by manipulating hearts either (bar the bit with Sora and Riku as that's literally a Combined Keyblade, and we already know of the direct relation between Keyblades and hearts...), you're acting like any RW is inherently a showcase of heart manip when that has to be proven for cases outside Castle Oblivion first and in the manner described in the OP (as otherwise it's clear you'll keep showcasing every RW feat in the series when most aren't pertinent to begin with, see the Power Inheritance Standards for what I mean).

In other words, it's not just about showing RW, but rather the method behind doing stuff, especially as RW is as worthless as type 3 concept manip in that it has no real innate effects nor really enhances other abilities, unless you're implying that any RW inherently comes from heart manip when it's not described as the sole method to reach this ability.

Hm, would it be better to classify them as manipulation of light and darkness rather just than hearts? We know Xehanort was massively amped by darkness at the time of his feat and we know Riku and Sora’s usage was from their bond.

This lines up with Xemnas gaining the ability through nothingness or how Zexion is a confirmed Darkness user, even Ava uses her illusions from manipulating light. This would solve the issue of everyone seemingly having differing sources for RW as opposed to trying to shove everything within just hearts. This solves the issue of characters not being able to replicate their feats considering the Player can do that. The OP would be edited accordingly:

“Subjective Reality for innate hearts”

“Limited reality manipulation for Light and Darkness.”

 

[Bobsican]

Oh, now I see what you mean, I think that with that adjustment it's fine, although that'd also probably increase the amount of stuff that may be layered with light/darkness, but eh, a topic for another thread.

Speaking of which, I found something that may be related, namely how this nature between cognition and hearts is similarly used as a justification to require someone else's memories as to enable a given heart to make a new body to inhabit as well as some intermediary object, in total being technically Mid-Godly regen, an example can be further made with Maleficent as that's how she's revived in KH2.

As for the soul stuff, it seems to be used interchangeably with life here, which'd line up with the definition given here:

Three elements combine to create a life: a heart, a soul, and a body.
But what of the soul and body left behind when the heart is lost?
When the soul leaves the body, its vessel, life gives way to death, but what about when the heart leaves?
A being does not perish when its heart leaves its body. The heart alone disappears into the darkness.

Now the question would be what we make up from this.

 

[ThatBoiRick]

Oh, now I see what you mean, I think that with that adjustment it's fine, although that'd also probably increase the amount of stuff that may be layered with light/darkness, but eh, a topic for another thread.

Yeah, the discussion of layers is about to be unfortunate..

Speaking of which, I found something that may be related, namely how this nature between cognition and hearts is similarly used as a justification to require someone else's memories as to enable a given heart to make a new body to inhabit as well as some intermediary object, in total being technically Mid-Godly regen, an example can be further made with Maleficent as that's how she's revived in KH2.

These are also good subjective reality feats

Now the question would be what we make up from this.

Might have to change the verse page a bit to differentiate them considering we can’t find out why they were ever equated. I’ll edit the OP to accommodate all this

 

[ThatBoiRick]

Bump

 

[AsterReal]

Everything looks good.

 

[Bobsican]

Thinking about it further, why is the Reality Warping not classified as Subjective Reality as well? Seems like a subset of the innate bit argued earlier, and RW is just a vaguer version of Subjective Reality either way.

 

[ThatBoiRick]

Thinking about it further, why is the Reality Warping not classified as Subjective Reality as well? Seems like a subset of the innate bit argued earlier, and RW is just a vaguer version of Subjective Reality either way.

Subjective reality is more so defining existence through a medium (your subjective experiences) while reality warping is eliminates that middle man and just warps it by default.

Hearts are intrinsically tied to existence while light and darkness are not as restricted.

 

[ThatBoiRick]

bump

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[ThatBoiRick]

Bump

 

[ThatBoiRick]

Bump, need mod votes

 

[ThatBoiRick]

Bump

 

[KingTempest]

the opinions of Bobsican are shared with me. well done