BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

[Specterxxxx]

But he then realizes she might be trying to copy 2nd form Ulquiorra and VL Ichigo instead (implying either of these two's powers > the other 3 Espada's ults)

The cien that said that was already severely damaged from the gran rey cero damage he recieved that was even doubled by rora's copy of nel abilites, and the correct translation said those powers would be difficult to handle at that moment, this doesn't imply your premise at all

 

[Overvoid69]

The cien that said that was already severely damaged from the gran rey cero damage he recieved that was even doubled by rora's copy of nel abilites, and the correct translation said those powers would be difficult to handle at that moment, this doesn't imply your premise at all

Cien being damaged isn't relavent at all? And I think ur referring to him saying if she copied VL powers that would make her troublesome to handle. Which is a different line i didn't even provide a translation for and not even relevant at all here.

Roka was preparing a attack with her threads and Cien was trying to guess what attack she would attempt to copy, He first think it's Barragan, Stark or Yammy that she's trying to copy. He then thinks she's going to copy VL or Ulq instead of those other 3. Implying both Ulq and VL separately > Yammy

 

[Crobatman44]

Iirc that in the Novel Cien exclusively refers to Full hollow Ichigo and it's the BBS adaptation that causes the confusions.
In general when compared to Cien directly or as a threat it's always about Full hollow Ichigo and never about SE Ulq or Lanza.

 

[Specterxxxx]

Cien being damaged isn't relavent at all? And I think ur referring to him saying if she copied VL powers that would make her troublesome to handle. Which is a different line i didn't even provide a translation for and not even relevant at all here.

your translation is wrong is what i am saying.

Roka was preparing a attack with her threads and Cien was trying to guess what attack she would attempt to copy, He first think it's Barragan, Stark or Yammy that she's trying to copy. He then thinks she's going to copy VL or Ulq instead of those other 3. Implying both Ulq and VL separately > Yammy

first off he was making an emphasis to full hollow ichigo, i have read this book in several translations and this is the first time i am seeing this ulq being mentioned, secondly, iirc cien refers to starkk, yammy and barragan ults are the only thing that surpasses his gran rey cero in all of heuco mundo so that doesn't imply what you said at all.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

How come we dont have Cien page?

I'll make it in the future!

 

[Soulking22334]

 

[Overvoid69]

your translation is wrong is what i am saying.

I can promise u it's not. Ur just confusing the different statements

first off he was making an emphasis to full hollow ichigo, i have read this book in several translations and this is the first time i am seeing this ulq being mentioned, secondly, iirc cien refers to starkk, yammy and barragan ults are the only thing that surpasses his gran rey cero in all of heuco mundo so that doesn't imply what you said at all.

He made emphasis to both that's why the raws japanese mention both of them. Show these other translations pls and I have quite literally alr proved that the they mention Ulq. Idk why ur being super ignorant and arguing against that based on you never seeing the scan before which obv isn't a debunk.

He doesn't mention his GRC when talking about those 3 Espada's Ults. He's talking about Roka's GRC being surpassed by those 3 Espada's Ults you clearly aren't knowledgeable on this Novel man...

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Cien at his peak is superior to everyone by far. In the latest part, the Japanese says that FH Ichigo would only be a little troublesome to handle specifically, so Cien grew strong enough to be built like that. He basically thinks that regardless of whether you use the top 3 Espada, Yammy, VL, or Ulquiorra, it would all be pretty much useless.
He only says Aizen can beat him.

I don’t think you can strongly infer the Espada ranking from this, tbh. It seems more like the characters mentioned are around the same tier, with FH Ichigo being the strongest.

 

[Overvoid69]

Cien at his peak is superior to everyone by far. In the latest part, the Japanese says that FH Ichigo would only be a little troublesome to handle specifically, so Cien grew strong enough to be built like that. He basically thinks that regardless of whether you use the top 3 Espada, Yammy, VL, or Ulquiorra, it would all be pretty much useless.
He only says Aizen can beat him.

I don’t think you can strongly infer the Espada ranking from this, tbh. It seems more like the characters mentioned are around the same tier, with FH Ichigo being the strongest.

You can infer a pretty exact scale for all the espada from this actually. Cien quite literally thinks Ulquiorra powers would be greater then Barragans Curse, Starks Wolves, or Yammy's max release. That's blatantly Ulquiorra > Yammy

When he says FH Ichigo would be troublesome to handle he's referring to Roka copying a single attack from FH Ichigo. And Full Power Cien/ Zaraki are stated to be = VL, and it's not 60% Cien. It's Full Power Cien and wk this because right after Uryu makes the "there on par with FH Ichigo statement", Kanonji sees Cien absorbing the Picaro's. Which he only did after fighting no eyepatch zaraki for a bit and Zaraki only took off the eyepatch after Cien reached his Full Power, and only when Zaraki took off his eyepatch did Cien start to absorb Picaro's.

 

[Arkenis]

I don’t think you can strongly infer the Espada ranking from this, tbh. It seems more like the characters mentioned are around the same tier, with FH Ichigo being the strongest.

If that's the case, then that still makes Ulq top 2 for fighting FH Ichigo to such a degree.

 

[Mommyleona]

You can infer a pretty exact scale for all the espada from this actually. Cien quite literally thinks Ulquiorra powers would be greater then Barragans Curse, Starks Wolves, or Yammy's max release. That's blatantly Ulquiorra > Yammy

When he says FH Ichigo would be troublesome to handle he's referring to Roka copying a single attack from FH Ichigo. And Full Power Cien/ Zaraki are stated to be = VL, and it's not 60% Cien. It's Full Power Cien and wk this because right after Uryu makes the there on par FH Ichigo statement, Kanonji sees Cien absorbing the Picaro's. Which he only did after fighting no eyepatch zaraki for a bit and Zaraki only took off the eyepatch after Cien reached his Full Power, and only when Zaraki took off his eyepatch did Cien start to absorb Picaro's.

Agree with Ulq glaze fra

 

[Crobatman44]

There is honestly no better way to downgrade everyone in the scaling chain outside of the Possibly 4-A and the God tier than by trying to upgrade Ulq's scaling and end up with "he kneecaps like a whole a bunch of characters because the old scaling chain collapses"

 

[Arkenis]

There isn't much feats after HM and FKT to upscale anyone anyway. I thought more Bleach fans were all more or less in agreement that the top of Espada are capable of fighting the eos characters no?

 

[Overvoid69]

There isn't much feats after HM and FKT to upscale anyone anyway. I thought more Bleach fans were all more or less in agreement that the top of Espada are capable of fighting the eos characters no?

Res Tosen? WW perception blitzing a stark ish lvl fighter? Top Espada get cliffed in FKT

 

[Hasch]

Ukitake is just a massive outlier because he has no lungs, base WW is a Vizard Mashiro victim.

 

[Arkenis]

Res Tosen? WW perception blitzing a stark ish lvl fighter? Top Espada get cliffed in FKT

Tosen lost to Sajin and Hisagi. "Top Espada get cliffed" had every Captain losing until the vizoreds came lmao.

 

[Overvoid69]

Ukitake is just a massive outlier because he has no lungs, base WW is a Vizard Mashiro victim.

He and Shunsui are portrayed as unrivaled equals. Second part just upscales Mashiro. Like she has no anti feats if i remember correctly, so idk why you would use her as a cap for WWs scaling.

Tosen lost to Sajin and Hisagi. "Top Espada get cliffed" had every Captain losing until the vizoreds came lmao.

No, Tosen got godly off guarded by Hisagi alone and hit in a vital spot according to CFYOW, plus he was dogging Sajin in their 1v1 when he went Res.

Also yes most of the Captains are losing to the top Espada. Soi Fon, Toshiro, No Bankai Shunsui, Jushiro, Mayuri and more then half of the Vizards were losing their fights against their Espada (excluding Soi Fons bankai and Toshiros overtime prep ult)

But there are others like Sajin, Byakuya, Kenpachi, Unohana, Yamamoto, Shunsui (only if he popped Bankai) and 2-3 of the Visards who have scaling on Max Yammy or above him.

Sajin based off being able to one shot break Hollowfied Tosens arm, and in their profiles we alr use Aizens statement where he implies Gin and Tosen above the Espada (this would apply to Hollowfied Tosen and not Res Tosen, bc Res Tosen gets his eyesight back and he keeps that after detransforming. So this would've had to been the first time he used it)
-
Forgot to mention Gin who has the same statement as Tosen.
-
Kenpachi/Byakuya based on their fight with Yammy.
-
Mashiro based on her feat on WW who has that blitz on Ukitake, and ig you could throw Kensei a bone and say he should be stronger then her for being her captain
-
Shinji was able to fight Gin and ig you could argue he should be the strongest vizard, bc he's the vizards leader
-
Base 33% Cien is stated to surpass Max Yammy
Base 60% Cien is stated to be the strongest Espada Uryus ever sensed, so he outscales SE Ulquiorra who outscales Max Yammy.
Cien then reaches full power on top of releasing which in SAFWY is implied to increase ur Hierro's durability (potentially applies to all Arrancars), so it's at least a durability increase. Cien is the og 0th Espada and stronger then max Yammy, so the accepted Res multiplier would apply to him either way.
SAFWY Zaraki scales to that Maxed out Ciens durability and as we know in TYBW, Unohana scales above even that.
-
I hope I don't have to explain how Base Aizen cliffs the Espada.
-
Finally Yamamoto, Base Aizen just outright says the Espada were inferior to him and then he admits inferiority to Yamamoto.

Idk how u can look at this and say the Espada are doing anything to EOS chars. SAFWY makes it infinitely more obv how badly cliffed the top Espada get. Shit has a statement of Zaraki being so strong that Barragans curse would get negged by him and that statement is before SAFWY Zaraki further increases his power.

Go back a page when I sent all the SAFWY scans. If u think Max Yammy getting surpassed by at least 14 x or Barragans curse being SP negged by a pre fullbring arc char who get's multiple zenkais in TYBW doesn't indicate the Espada's stand no chance against EOS chars, then IG vro

 

[Soulking22334]

so bleach have infinite future possibilities and the book of end prove that different past timelines exit and the are connected to yhwach



doesn't that give bleach hyper time axis = low comp multiversal scaling?????

 

[Arkenis]

But there are others like Sajin, Byakuya, Kenpachi, Unohana, Yamamoto, Shunsui (only if he popped Bankai) and 2-3 of the Visards who have scaling on Max Yammy or above him.

Besides Yamamoto and Unohana who already scale to EOS characters, the rest you said were struggling to kill Yammy and couldn't beat Starrk.

Finally Yamamoto, Base Aizen just outright says the Espada were inferior to him and then he admits inferiority to Yamamoto.

Aizen and Yamamoto are god tier.

Kenpachi/Byakuya based on their fight with Yammy.

Where they were badly injured by him.

Shinji was able to fight Gin and ig you could argue he should be the strongest vizard, bc he's the vizards leader

Shinji is EOS.

You just don't believe the statement about Ulq and FH Ichigo so nothing can really convince you. The wiki also treats random arcs as people getting more powerful and I assume you think so too.

 

[PizzaDante67]

There is honestly no better way to downgrade everyone in the scaling chain outside of the Possibly 4-A and the God tier than by trying to upgrade Ulq's scaling and end up with "he kneecaps like a whole a bunch of characters because the old scaling chain collapses"

Now that you mentioned it, why is it still just a „Possibly 4-A“ rating? I know it went from a 4-A to possibly 4-A because The senjumaru feat got downgraded to 4-B. But now with the senna feat, shouldn’t that be more concrete evidence for straight up 4-A?

And also what Yhwach did in his sleep with the realms could be a nice supporting feat, considering how much stronger he is compared to Gremmy and similar characters. I believe that would make the just 4-A rating more consistent.

 

[DeathberrySama]

What's the justification for using SAFWY in scaling?

 

[Soulking22334]

What's the justification for using SAFWY in scaling?

why not??

 

[Soulking22334]

low multi mimihagi

 

[PizzaDante67]

low multi mimihagi

what am i even looking at and why do i not remember it

 

[Soulking22334]

what am i even looking at and why do i not remember it

last scene from cour3 yhwach was passively creating spacial cracks across the realms while mimihagi was closing it

 

[Arkenis]

Likely an outlier or just visual inconsistency

 

[Soulking22334]

Likely an outlier or just visual inconsistency

cope grandmaster

 

[Hasch]

He and Shunsui are portrayed as unrivaled equals. Second part just upscales Mashiro. Like she has no anti feats if i remember correctly, so idk why you would use her as a cap for WWs scaling.

He is Shunsui equal which is why he vastly outscales Mashiro, who's weaker than Kensei the weakest captain Vizard, two of which Starrk easily defeated.

Ukitake is just inconsistent because of his disease and personality, when he's ok he and Shunsui can fight Yamamoto competitively.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

low multi mimihagi

That's not a Low-Multi feat, need far more context

 

[Arkenis]

exactly. That's likely just a bunch of birds.

 

[Hasch]

I honestly don't understand the anime version of the events, somehow Ukitake is still alive?

 

[Specterxxxx]

He made emphasis to both that's why the raws japanese mention both of them. Show these other translations pls and I have quite literally alr proved that the they mention Ulq. Idk why ur being super ignorant and arguing against that based on you never seeing the scan before which obv isn't a debunk.

You obviously didn't read the novels properly, and like I said earlier, your interpretation and translation is ass. But no worries, I'll clear it up one last time since you seem to have missed what the text actually says. Now before i address what the text actually says i will provide a link to the raws, a proper translation and the official BBS translation of safwy here you go:

First and foremost, at no point in the story does Cien consider Ulquiorra a worthy opponent or even a serious threat. In Volume 2, after Roka fails to kill him by reflecting and attempting to amplify his Gran Rey Cero, Cien starts speculating about what power she might try to copy next that could potentially surpass that attack.

That's why he brings up Yammy, Starrk, and Barragan. He specifically eludes to them as the only Espada whose power could reasonably try to compare to that attack. Notice something important here: Ulquiorra isn't mentioned. Not once. Despite being a former resident of Hueco Mundo just like the others, he doesn't make the cut. Cien even says that nobody in Hueco Mundo besides himself and Aizen possesses power greater than that attack. If Ulquiorra were actually on that level, the first statement would have been the perfect time to mention him. He doesn't. That should already tell you everything.

Now, before you try to run with the next statement, let's look at what Cien actually says about Ulquiorra:

"Ulquiorra and Ichigo Kurosaki. Did you think I didn't know about their transformation and powers?... Roca, you really thought that if you copied one of those powers, you could kill me?... But the aim was good. Were the power of Ichigo Kurosaki who goes Berserk reproduced, it would have been annoying to kill you."

This next statement even makes what you said even more silly;

Cien is literally mocking the idea that Roca thought copying Ulquiorra's power could kill him. The only power he acknowledges as potentially troublesome is Berserk Hollow Ichigo's. Not Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra's. Just Hollow Ichigo.

And here's the funniest part: we already know Hollow Ichigo absolutely embarrassed Ulquiorra. He ragdolled him, clowned his ultimate attack by flexing his manicure lol. So if Cien says Hollow Ichigo's power might have been annoying to deal with while deliberately excluding Ulquiorra, despite having complete information on both of them through the spirit bugs, then the implication couldn't be more obvious.

Cien simply doesn't take Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra seriously or holds him in high regard compared to the rest names he called.

So in summary

1. Cien never calls Ulquiorra a worthy opponent.
2. He excludes Ulquiorra from the group of Espada whose power could reasonably be compared to his Gran Rey Cero.
3. He openly mocks the idea that Ulquiorra's power could kill him.
4. The only power he singles out as potentially troublesome is Hollow Ichigo's.
5. He had full knowledge of both characters' abilities and still made that distinction.

So no matter how you try to spin it, the novel doesn't support your interpretation. If anything, it does the exact opposite. Ulquiorra is never portrayed as being on a level compared to the other top 3 espadas and hollow ichigo, and Cien's own statements make that crystal clear. That's really the end of the discussion.

He doesn't mention his GRC when talking about those 3 Espada's Ults. He's talking about Roka's GRC being surpassed by those 3 Espada's Ults you clearly aren't knowledgeable on this Novel man...

This is just more proof you didn't read the novels, i am crying.... imagine telling me i am not knowledgeable on this novel and this is what you are saying because roka's GRC is literally his GRC being sent back to him via nel "double it and give it to the next person" ability.

 

[Specterxxxx]

Now that you mentioned it, why is it still just a „Possibly 4-A“ rating? I know it went from a 4-A to possibly 4-A because The senjumaru feat got downgraded to 4-B. But now with the senna feat, shouldn’t that be more concrete evidence for straight up 4-A?

And also what Yhwach did in his sleep with the realms could be a nice supporting feat, considering how much stronger he is compared to Gremmy and similar characters. I believe that would make the just 4-A rating more consistent.

Actually i plan on doing this myself, Even reio's reiatsu shaking the realms in cour 3 episode 28 of tybw might surpass 4B when it is calced adding another feat for consistency

last scene from cour3 yhwach was passively creating spacial cracks across the realms while mimihagi was closing it

This "feat" needs more context, also you could have just used the scene of him stabilizing the realms back in ep 28 as low multi feat as that is quite clear cut

 

[ichimojii]

Cien didn't mock 2nd release ulqiorra the fact he even thought she would copy that from means it's at the very least above the other espada

 

[Specterxxxx]

Cien didn't mock 2nd release ulqiorra the fact he even thought she would copy that from means it's at the very least above the other espada

No it doesn't because he is only alluding to their fight (i.e ulquiorra vs ichigo not ulq) that is why ulquiorra is even mentioned in the first place, the main person he was focused on was ichigo, trying to use ulquiorra who was only mentioned because of ichigo is silly

 

[PizzaDante67]

Cien didn't mock 2nd release ulqiorra the fact he even thought she would copy that from means it's at the very least above the other espada

Cien states that the only forces in Hueco Mundo, that surpass Yammy, Barragan and Starkk, are Aizen’s and his own.

The Ulquiorra and Ichigo thing has nothing to do with this.
Him naming them does not indicate Ulquiorra> every other Espada besides Cien.

The fact that Cien even said that his and Aizen‘s Power are the ONLY ones in Hueco Mundo, to surpass these 3, should be enough evidence tbh.

 

[ichimojii]

No it doesn't because he is only alluding to their fight (i.e ulquiorra vs ichigo not ulq) that is why ulquiorra is even mentioned in the first place, the main person he was focused on was ichigo, trying to use ulquiorra who was only mentioned because of ichigo is silly

He said she probably thought about coping either of those forms. These were basically the most likely forms she would according to cien. Tho cien only saw VL ichigo as a possible threat

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

I heard there are people defending Ulquiorra, so I came. We talked about this before. Scan is here, and yes, Overvoid is not wrong. In the Japanese text, Cien looks at Rooka, who copied Mugetsu, and says, "Did you copy something stronger than FH Ichigo and SE Ulquiorra?" This makes him tremble with fear. The statement you mentioned, "Vasto Lord might cause me trouble," was mentioned in previous pages. My exam is almost over. After it's finished, I'll open the CRT of the Dangai Ichigo=>100% FH Ichigo=>50% FH Ichigo=>SE Ulquiorra scale. There, I'll explain in more detail why they can't be shown as weaker than Cien.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Cien states that the only forces in Hueco Mundo, that surpass Yammy, Barragan and Starkk, are Aizen’s and his own.

The Ulquiorra and Ichigo thing has nothing to do with this.
Him naming them does not indicate Ulquiorra> every other Espada besides Cien.

The fact that Cien even said that his and Aizen‘s Power are the ONLY ones in Hueco Mundo, to surpass these 3, should be enough evidence tbh.

He didn't mention Ulq and Ichigo's names at first because he forgot about their existence. Besides, since Yammy didn't take any precautions against Starrk and Baraggan and prevented the copying of Ulq and VL's powers, this statement implies Ulq and VL >> Starrk, Yammy, Baraggan. The other person probably explained it above. Even 60% Cien is superior to Eye Patch Zaraki, who is strong enough to cast reiatsu neg on Baraggan and Starrk. 100% Cien thought that the strongest things Rooka could copy were Ulq and VL. That's why he was afraid that when Mugetsu was copied, she might have copied something stronger than Ulq and VL.

 

[Soulking22334]

This "feat" needs more context, also you could have just used the scene of him stabilizing the realms back in ep 28 as low multi feat as that is quite clear cut

Actually i plan on doing this myself, Even reio's reiatsu shaking the realms in cour 3 episode 28 of tybw might surpass 4B when it is calced adding another feat for consistency

That's not a Low-Multi feat, need far more context

here mimihagi closing the cracks

all these happened in his sleep