Genshin Impact – Nahida and Irminsul Stuff (1 STAFF VOTE NEEDED)

[MSahla]

Tryna add something for
Nahida from the Irminsul.

What is Irminsul?
Irminsul refers to the primordial, silver-white world tree of Teyvat which grows deep underground, sends its roots to the surface, and is connected to the Ley Lines of the world that course with elemental energy.

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Irminsul has all knowledge and memories of the world because it was the repository for all of the information and memories of Teyvat, which were collected via the Ley Lines. This would include even past, present and future of the world; For example, the prophecy that Fontaine would be flooded was recorded in Irminsul long ago, even though it has not yet occurred. Then, it finally happened in the last Fontaine Archon Quest. This is set in stone, because all fate in Genshin Impact/Teyvat are predetermined/predestined, and the future cannot deviate from their path. There is also a thing called "Constellation" that also controls fate (past, present, and future) of all beings, and Irminsul is that anchor. All of this proves that Irminsul also contains genuine future informations that hasn't happened yet but will definitely happen.

EDIT:
Beyond the reach of Irminsul

Spoiler: Explanations

Certain information may remain unknown if it is absent from Irminsul, be it hidden, corrupted, inaccessible, or originates from entities and events beyond Irminsul's jurisdiction such as the False Sky and the Descenders, as they're from beyond the Irminsul's scope, and thus not get recorded by the Irminsul. This would include the "Forbidden Knowledge", which essentially the Knowledge that does not belong to the world of Teyvat and coming from the very bottom of the Abyss, and even as the God of Wisdom, Rukkhadevata failed to comprehend it.

Q: “Does this mean Irminsul cannot records something from beyond the world?”
A: Not necessarily. The Traveler is a Descender from another world. Fourth Descender to be exact. Descenders are special entities that transcends almost every laws in Teyvat, which of course including Irminsul itself, and thus not get recorded by the Irminsul.

But, the Traveler, who came from beyond the world of Teyvat, have a sibling/twin with them. This sibling apparently got recorded by Irminsul despite both of them coming from another world and travel through the stars for god knows how long is it.
You can see Nahida's explanation here:


And there's also a statements that says Irminsul can also records the secret of the cosmos.

All of this proves that not everyone from outside the world can bypass Irminsul's record nor does the Irminsul cannot record something from beyond the world.

What would Nahida get from that?

1. Nigh-Omniscient Intelligence
The Dendro Archon is the God of Wisdom because her consciousness and mind are directly connected to the Irminsul. This would gave them more knowledge and wisdom. And as I explained before, Irminsul has all knowledge and memories of the world, including even past, present and future of the world, AND EVEN the secret of the cosmos.

Of course, we're talking about Nigh-Omniscience, there must be something that limits them. I have edited the OP and added the explanations regarding the limitations of Irminsul right above this section. So, enjoy reading.

2. New Abilities: Fate Manipulation & Limited Causality Manipulation

Justifications:

(Irminsul has existed in Teyvat since before the arrival of the Heavenly Principles. Its appearance and function then differed greatly from today. After the arrival of the Heavenly Principles, Irminsul was usurped and refashioned, and the tree itself was transformed into a device meant to record and preserve all information in Teyvat. In addition, it was used as an anchor for the fate of the world, which should be connected to the constellations that also control the fate of the world, to maintain the constant flow of erosion through the Ley Lines, and to serve humanity. The stars of Teyvat are closely intertwined with the concept of fate, and Constellations are an extension of this. The stars of constellations are likened to strings by which the Heavenly Principles puppeteer the mortals of the Human Realm. Causality is irreversibly attached to fate, and whatever fate changes will also alter the cause and effect)

Causality Manipulation was accepted here

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Votes

Agreed: TWILIGHT-OP - ActuallySpaceMan42
RaikiKurohane99 - Furina003 - KirbyFan03 - The_Tetromino_King - LoudestProcedure - AsterReal - Azertyhuuh - GodlyCharmander - Astral_Trinity439

Neutral:

Disagree:

 

[Furina003]

A quite simple, i think this seem fine

 

[KirbyFan03]

Agree

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

Agreed

 

[PedjaTarzan]

when are we getting her out of "Unknown" cage

 

[MSahla]

when are we getting her out of "Unknown" cage

@Puppet43 ask him.

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

explained before, Irminsul has all knowledge and memories of the world, including even past, present and future.

Where?

 

[MSahla]

Where?

Umm...

and future of the world; For example, the prophecy that Fontaine would be flooded was recorded in Irminsul long ago, even though it has not yet occurred. Then, it finally happened in the last Fontaine Archon Quest. This is set in stone, because all fate in Genshin Impact/Teyvat are predetermined/predestined, and the future cannot deviate from their path.

 

[LoudestProcedure]

Agreed

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

Umm...

The Fontaine prophecy isn't really evidence that Irminsul contains future knowledge. The prophecy was a punishment imposed by the Heavenly Principles on Fontaine and Egeria, becoming part of Teyvat's predetermined fate. Once that fate was established, it could be recorded in Irminsul just like any other aspect of Teyvat's history and fate.
In other words, the prophecy wasn't present in Irminsul because Irminsul already knew the future. Rather, it was recorded because the Heavenly Principles had already decreed that outcome. The distinction is important: Irminsul is recording a fate that was set into motion, not independently storing all future events before they are determined.

 

[MSahla]

The Fontaine prophecy isn't really evidence that Irminsul contains future knowledge. The prophecy was a punishment imposed by the Heavenly Principles on Fontaine and Egeria, becoming part of Teyvat's predetermined fate. Once that fate was established, it could be recorded in Irminsul just like any other aspect of Teyvat's history and fate.
In other words, the prophecy wasn't present in Irminsul because Irminsul already knew the future. Rather, it was recorded because the Heavenly Principles had already decreed that outcome. The distinction is important: Irminsul is recording a fate that was set into motion, not independently storing all future events before they are determined.

The problem is that in Teyvat, fate itself is part of the information structure of the world, and Irminsul is repeatedly described as containing and recording that structure. If fate is predetermined, then information about future events already exists as part of Teyvat's reality. Whether the source is the Heavenly Principles or something else does not change the fact that the future event is information that exists before it occurs.

The Fontaine's prophecy actually supports all of this because it is characteristic of genuine future information, not merely a historical record.

Irminsul is recording a fate that was set into motion, not independently storing all future events before they are determined.

This only works if future events are not yet determined when recorded. But in Genshin, fate is often treated as already existing before the event happens. If the Heavenly Principles decreed Fontaine's destruction centuries before it occurred, then from that moment onward the future event was already established reality within Teyvat's fate system. So if Irminsul records fate, it is still recording future information.

If you play Linnea's story quest (which I assume you have), you'll know that fate is something set in stone. And you saw Linnea literally having her Precognition, watching her future/her entire life will be until her death. That would not change whatsoever and remains a genuine future informations that would occurs.

Irminsul may not be the source of future knowledge, but that is different from "Irminsul does not contain future knowledge"

 

[MSahla]

Snip

And let's not forget that there is also a thing called "Constellation" that also controls fate (past, present, and future) of all beings, and Irminsul is that anchor.

• The first premise is "Irminsul is the anchor of fate". An "anchor of fate" means fate is stabilized or rooted through Irminsul.
• And the second premise is "Constellations are representations/extensions of fate". Mona omce said that constellations reflect an individual's fate. Even Rukkhadevata says that.

If Irminsul is the anchor of fate itself, then constellations are downstream manifestations of information already rooted within Irminsul. Therefore, anchoring fate necessarily entails anchoring the constellation system that reflects that fate. This leads us to the obvious conclusion: Irminsul does contain information about the future as it anchor the fate (past, present ane future) of the world.

 

[AsterReal]

That looks good. But shouldn't Nahida be comparable to Dottore, who can use information from the Irminsul to replicate powers and abilities recorded in the tree?

 

[MSahla]

That looks good. But shouldn't Nahida be comparable to Dottore, who can use information from the Irminsul to replicate powers and abilities recorded in the tree?

Just another/next time. Too lazy to edit a lot of new things.

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

The problem is that in Teyvat, fate itself is part of the information structure of the world, and Irminsul is repeatedly described as containing and recording that structure. If fate is predetermined, then information about future events already exists as part of Teyvat's reality. Whether the source is the Heavenly Principles or something else does not change the fact that the future event is information that exists before it occurs.

The Fontaine's prophecy actually supports all of this because it is characteristic of genuine future information, not merely a historical record.


This only works if future events are not yet determined when recorded. But in Genshin, fate is often treated as already existing before the event happens. If the Heavenly Principles decreed Fontaine's destruction centuries before it occurred, then from that moment onward the future event was already established reality within Teyvat's fate system. So if Irminsul records fate, it is still recording future information.

If you play Linnea's story quest (which I assume you have), you'll know that fate is something set in stone. And you saw Linnea literally having her Precognition, watching her future/her entire life will be until her death. That would not change whatsoever and remains a genuine future informations that would occurs.

Irminsul may not be the source of future knowledge, but that is different from "Irminsul does not contain future knowledge"

And let's not forget that there is also a thing called "Constellation" that also controls fate (past, present, and future) of all beings, and Irminsul is that anchor.

• The first premise is "Irminsul is the anchor of fate". An "anchor of fate" means fate is stabilized or rooted through Irminsul.
• And the second premise is "Constellations are representations/extensions of fate". Mona omce said that constellations reflect an individual's fate. Even Rukkhadevata says that.

If Irminsul is the anchor of fate itself, then constellations are downstream manifestations of information already rooted within Irminsul. Therefore, anchoring fate necessarily entails anchoring the constellation system that reflects that fate. This leads us to the obvious conclusion: Irminsul does contain information about the future as it anchor the fate (past, present ane future) of the world.

I have written 6 para to respond regarding this, I may send that if I feel like if i really need too. Let that aside for now.
Proving that Irminsul contains future information is not the same as proving Nahida possesses Nigh-Omniscience. You must prove comprehensive access, comprehension, and retrieval, which the story repeatedly shows she lacks.

 

[Furina003]

I have written 6 para to respond regarding this, I may send that if I feel like if i really need too. Let that aside for now.
Proving that Irminsul contains future information is not the same as proving Nahida possesses Nigh-Omniscience. You must prove comprehensive access, comprehension, and retrieval, which the story repeatedly shows she lacks.

Isn't Nahida able to access all of Irminsul's information?

Because she is the Irminsul tree itself, and the dendro archon's consciousness is directly connected to Irminsul.

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

Isn't Nahida able to access all of Irminsul's information?

Because she is the Irminsul tree itself, and the dendro archon's consciousness is directly connected to Irminsul.

Nahida's actual portrayal directly contradicts Nigh-Omniscience. Throughout the story she lacks information, investigates mysteries, requires time to search Irminsul, and is surprised by events. A character with Nigh-Omniscience should not repeatedly encounter situations where they need to gather information they supposedly already have access to.

 

[Furina003]

Nahida's actual portrayal directly contradicts Nigh-Omniscience. Throughout the story she lacks information, investigates mysteries, requires time to search Irminsul, and is surprised by events. A character with Nigh-Omniscience should not repeatedly encounter situations where they need to gather information they supposedly already have access to.

Unknown facts are always related to blocked information, such as the incident about the fake sky or the traveler sibling, whose information was intentionally obscured, and the fake sky was indeed kept secret by Phanes.

Similarly, with Dottore, Dottore was previously unknown to Nahida because he successfully hacked the Irminsul system itself. These are things Nahida didn't know about.

In my opinion, this is still within the reasonable category of nigh-omniscience, as this ability is indeed limited.

The user knows almost everything in existence while being blocked from certain details or being limited in other ways, possibly only being able to see one timeline or universe, or have just small patches of information that are missing or blocked out. Thus allowing one to keep their sense of free will and uncertainty.

 

[MSahla]

Proving that Irminsul contains future information is not the same as proving Nahida possesses Nigh-Omniscience. You must prove comprehensive access, comprehension, and retrieval, which the story repeatedly shows she lacks.

??
Why are you even concluding it that way? Don't straw-man me, brother. I'm providing that Irminsul can also record information from the past, present and future. I'm not saying that "Irminsul has future's information = Nahida Nigh-Omniscient." That's literally a straw man.

The relevant question is whether Nahida possesses access to a repository that contains an immense amount of knowledge, including information beyond normal temporal limitations. And she literally has that access. In the recent Archon Quest you literally saw Nahida accessing Irminsul, literally at thr beginning of the quest.

Nahida's actual portrayal directly contradicts Nigh-Omniscience. Throughout the story she lacks information, investigates mysteries, requires time to search Irminsul, and is surprised by events. A character with Nigh-Omniscience should not repeatedly encounter situations where they need to gather information they supposedly already have access to.

Brother, she's not Omniscient, but she's Nigh. You know what is Nigh-Omniscience so I don't need to tell you. The fact that she can repeatedly consult Irminsul for information inaccessible to ordinary beings is actually evidence for extraordinary knowledge access.

If you REALLY follow and read the recent Archon Quest, you would know that Nahida literally shutdown the Irminsul to prevent Dottore doing his shit because he's merged with Irminsul, and he try to access the information of others and even will brought disaster to Sumeru, and that would eventually affect the whole world. This was literally explained by Naphis and Alhaitham in the early of the Archon Quest.

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

??
Why are you even concluding it that way? Don't straw-man me, brother. I'm providing that Irminsul can also record information from the past, present and future. I'm not saying that "Irminsul has future's information = Nahida Nigh-Omniscient." That's literally a straw man.

The relevant question is whether Nahida possesses access to a repository that contains an immense amount of knowledge, including information beyond normal temporal limitations. And she literally has that access. In the recent Archon Quest you literally saw Nahida accessing Irminsul, literally at thr beginning of the quest.


Brother, she's not Omniscient, but she's Nigh. You know what is Nigh-Omniscience so I don't need to tell you. The fact that she can repeatedly consult Irminsul for information inaccessible to ordinary beings is actually evidence for extraordinary knowledge access.

If you REALLY follow and read the recent Archon Quest, you would know that Nahida literally shutdown the Irminsul to prevent Dottore doing his shit because he's merged with Irminsul, and he try to access the information of others and even will brought disaster to Sumeru, and that would eventually affect the whole world. This was literally explained by Naphis and Alhaitham in the early of the Archon Quest.

You're changing the standard being argued. Having access to a vast repository of knowledge is evidence for information acquisition, information analysis, or data retrieval abilities. It is not automatically evidence for Nigh-Omniscience.
The question isn't whether Nahida can access Irminsul. Nobody disputes that. The question is whether that access grants her knowledge on a level qualifying as Nigh-Omniscience.
If merely having access to a database were enough, then every character who can query an all-encompassing information source would qualify for Nigh-Omniscience. That's obviously not how the ability is treated.
Nahida repeatedly needs to actively search, investigate, interpret, and retrieve information from Irminsul. That demonstrates a user-repository relationship, not near-omniscient awareness.
The fact that she shut down Irminsul or can access Irminsul proves administrative authority over the system. It does not prove she possesses all knowledge contained within it at once.
At best I can see a possibly rating rather than hard one.

 

[MSahla]

Having access to a vast repository of knowledge is evidence for information acquisition, information analysis, or data retrieval abilities. It is not automatically evidence for Nigh-Omniscience.
The question isn't whether Nahida can access Irminsul. Nobody disputes that. The question is whether that access grants her knowledge on a level qualifying as Nigh-Omniscience.
If merely having access to a database were enough, then every character who can query an all-encompassing information source would qualify for Nigh-Omniscience. That's obviously not how the ability is treated.

Now you're quietly changes the claim from "access to a near-complete source of knowledge" to "access to any database whatsoever" Those are not the same thing.
Nobody is arguing that access to any database automatically grants Nigh-Omniscience. The argument is that access to a repository which contains the overwhelming majority of knowledge within a world, including records of the past, present, and potentially predetermined future is evidence for Nigh-Omniscience.

The question is whether that access grants her knowledge on a level qualifying as Nigh-Omniscience

Oh yeah it does. As I explained, Irminsul has all knowledge and memories of the world. The Dendro Archon's mind and consciousness are directly connected to Irminsul. So, new information and memories within the Irminsul = new information, knowledge and wisdom for the Archon herself.

This was literally stated by Rukkhadevata that Irminsul gives her more knowledge and wisdom:

The Dendro Archon is the God of Wisdom because her consciousness and mind are directly connected to the Irminsul. This would gave them more knowledge and wisdom.

The fact that she shut down Irminsul or can access Irminsul proves administrative authority over the system. It does not prove she possesses all knowledge contained within it at once.

This argument again hinges on a standard that is closer to omniscience than the nigh one. As I have provided before, her consciousness and mind are directly connected to it, and she can access it freely. Rukkhadevata further claim that it brought her knowledge and wisdom.

We're talking about nigh-omniscience man, not omniscience. Of course the former has many feats that shows them being restricted by something because this is a limited omniscience.

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

We're talking about nigh-omniscience man, not omniscience

When i said all knowledge i meant information inside Iruminsul.
Anyways this is going in circles. I advice you to contact Another mod.

 

[MSahla]

When i said all knowledge i meant information inside Iruminsul.

I know, and I am sure that I have provided everything that is needed.

Anyways this is going in circles. I advice you to contact Another mod.

Already did after like 10 minutes I made this CRT. How about I ask you to tag some of them?

 

[RaikiKurohane99]

I think the proposals are fine. Nigh-Omniscient can even be obtained simply by knowing all of the present.

Though, I think it's better to add to the description that there are certain things Nahida does not know due to whatever reasons are given.

 

[MSahla]

Though, I think it's better to add to the description that there are certain things Nahida does not know due to whatever reasons are given.

Thanks for reminder!

 

[MSahla]

Bump

 

[MSahla]

EDIT:
Beyond the reach of Irminsul

I've added new section in the OP. Enjoy reading.

 

[MSahla]

Bump

 

[Azertyhuuh]

Alright, it looks good.

 

[MSahla]

Alright, it looks good.

Thank u for coming.

 

[MSahla]

Bump

Bump

 

[GodlyCharmander]

This is a well done revision, after checking all the information, I don't see why she wouldn't get the abilities.

I agree

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

If Nahida needs to actively search through Irminsul and doesn't just know things instantly, she should have a normal intelligence rating, and then a Nigh-Omniscience Intelligence rating, via Irminsul. Also, she should have Information Analysis, which would be her actively using Irminsul.

 

[MSahla]

If Nahida needs to actively search through Irminsul and doesn't just know things instantly, she should have a normal intelligence rating, and then a Nigh-Omniscience Intelligence rating, via Irminsul.

This is what I thought too.
Basically would be:

Genius normally, Nigh-Omniscient with Irminsul

Also, she should have Information Analysis, which would be her actively using Irminsul.

Ok.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

This seems fine honestly
As long as we list the limitations of her access to the tree

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

Man i still have doubts that Iruminsul holds future events or not, we haven't seen many instances of that. I am fine with what's being agreed upon rn.

 

[MSahla]

Man i still have doubts that Iruminsul holds future events or not, we haven't seen many instances of that.

Well, Nahida already said that Fontaine's prophecy have already been recorded by Irminsul from long ago. Prophecy is something from the future, and it is basically part of fate that's already part of Teyvat's reality itself. They just don't happen yet, but will definitely be happening as it is set in stone.

I am fine with what's being agreed upon rn.

So.. Can I apply these or should I wait for one more?