Champion of Midgard: The Thor Odinson MegaCRT

[NaturalDestroyer]

I agree. I think Nyx should be looked at here, before finalizing the Thor upgrade.

I think Rune King Thor would upscale, due to being narratively far more powerful than normal All-Father Thor.c

That's a fair point

 

[Antvasima]

I agree. I think Nyx should be looked at here, before finalizing the Thor upgrade.

Yes. Agreed.

 

[ObberGobb]

Is there any in-universe reason for Thor being weaker in the mortal plane than he is in god realms or something? Like how in DC the New Gods get shrunk by Boomtubes whenever the enter the Multiverse? That would be quite convenient for scaling if so.

 

[Antvasima]

Is there any in-universe reason for Thor being weaker in the mortal plane than he is in god realms or something? Like how in DC the New Gods get shrunk by Boomtubes whenever the enter the Multiverse? That would be quite convenient for scaling if so.

Good question. Is anybody here informed about it?

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I remember a scan being used about Gods lowering themselves when going to the mortal realm
From the current God physiology page

• Also, it has been repeatedly stated that entering the mortal realm weakens the Gods, who can only enter by descending into the form of man, which is also stated here

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

That could be useful, but we'd also have to keep in mind that quite a few Tier 1 feats for Thor Corps folks took place in the mortal realm

 

[ObberGobb]

Is there a better explanation for Variability than just not holding back?

Like 1-A implies a level of transcendence that he just never demonstrates. It is never shown or even implied that Thor is so far above beings like Silver Surfer that he doesn't even see them as real. Just based on what 1-A as a tier is, it does not make sense that would "transcend lower existences to the point that those vanish into nothingness" but then just... hold back to nothingness? If Thor is 1-A, then he "fundamentally surpasses lower states of existence, with their sheer superiority not being expressible as the sum, union or permutation of anything in these lesser states." If that is the case, then just holding back doesn't cut it.

And if it is just holding back, then Blood and Thunder Thor should represent Thor at his peak. He wasn't holding back, and was so far above his usual levels that Sif, who knows him very well, thought he was in Warrior's Madness (A 10x amp to stats). Despite this, while characters like Adam Warlock and Silver Surfer were certainly weaker, they could still combat him and block attacks. That is a far cry from "vanishing into nothingness."

Furthermore, Beta Ray Bill and Eric Masterson, neither of whom are on Thor's level and are very much just normal Herald Tier, would also be 1-A through the feats listed.

Physically, Thor is explicitly bound by spatial dimensions. Now, Thor does say his divinity "transcends dimensions" here, so that could be an explanation, but in context this feat is really just 4-D.

 

[Antvasima]

Is there a better explanation for Variability than just not holding back?

Like 1-A implies a level of transcendence that he just never demonstrates. It is never shown or even implied that Thor is so far above beings like Silver Surfer that he doesn't even see them as real. Just based on what 1-A as a tier is, it does not make sense that would "transcend lower existences to the point that those vanish into nothingness" but then just... hold back to nothingness? If Thor is 1-A, then he "fundamentally surpasses lower states of existence, with their sheer superiority not being expressible as the sum, union or permutation of anything in these lesser states." If that is the case, then just holding back doesn't cut it.

And if it is just holding back, then Blood and Thunder Thor should represent Thor at his peak. He wasn't holding back, and was so far above his usual levels that Sif, who knows him very well, thought he was in Warrior's Madness (A 10x amp to stats). Despite this, while characters like Adam Warlock and Silver Surfer were certainly weaker, they could still combat him and block attacks. That is a far cry from "vanishing into nothingness."

Furthermore, Beta Ray Bill and Eric Masterson, neither of whom are on Thor's level and are very much just normal Herald Tier, would also be 1-A through the feats listed.

Physically, Thor is explicitly bound by spatial dimensions. Now, Thor does say his divinity "transcends dimensions" here, so that could be an explanation, but in context this feat is really just 4-D.

Yes, and that reasoning is far from limited to Thor alone.

Either our current scaling does not make any logical sense for Marvel Comics as a whole, or we will have to consider Marvel tiering in a similar manner as DC tiering, meaning that the scale of power of gods and cosmic entities depends on which level of reality they manifest in at the time, for the sake of having it make coherent sense to some degree.

 

[Rgerdeena]

Is there a better explanation for Variability than just not holding back?

One of the first things in the op is a link to a giant list of varies mechanism scans

Like 1-A implies a level of transcendence that he just never demonstrates. It is never shown or even implied that Thor is so far above beings like Silver Surfer that he doesn't even see them as real. Just based on what 1-A as a tier is, it does not make sense that would "transcend lower existences to the point that those vanish into nothingness" but then just... hold back to nothingness? If Thor is 1-A, then he "fundamentally surpasses lower states of existence, with their sheer superiority not being expressible as the sum, union or permutation of anything in these lesser states." If that is the case, then just holding back doesn't cut it.

It is shown for elder gods who Thor is part elder god, and it’s shown for the abstracts numerous times who Thor scales to and elder gods scale to

And if it is just holding back, then Blood and Thunder Thor should represent Thor at his peak. He wasn't holding back, and was so far above his usual levels that Sif, who knows him very well, thought he was in Warrior's Madness (A 10x amp to stats). Despite this, while characters like Adam Warlock and Silver Surfer were certainly weaker, they could still combat him and block attacks. That is a far cry from "vanishing into nothingness."

He’s already being proposed that his non holding back state varies with him being herald tier at his weakest

Furthermore, Beta Ray Bill and Eric Masterson, neither of whom are on Thor's level and are very much just normal Herald Tier, would also be 1-A through the feats listed.

Why?

Physically, Thor is explicitly bound by spatial dimensions. Now, Thor does say his divinity "transcends dimensions" here, so that could be an explanation, but in context this feat is really just 4-D.

How do you interpret him escaping a tesseract after 2 seconds in it and saying he transcends dimensions as he’s bound by dimensions

 

[ObberGobb]

One of the first things in the op is a link to a giant list of varies mechanism scans

Those are holding back or mental blocks. When dealing with 1-A we need more than that. 1-A isn't just stronger than High 3-A, or even Low 1-A, it is such an enormous gap that the previous tiers literally do not exist next to it. Part of 1-A is that it is completely inaccessible.

How do you interpret him escaping a tesseract after 2 seconds in it and saying he transcends dimensions as he’s bound by dimensions

"I inhabit the material world, and as such know only but a shadow of such a construct"

Why?

Because they are never treated as being that far above Herald Tiers, and have never shown qualitative superiority.

It is shown for elder gods who Thor is part elder god, and it’s shown for the abstracts numerous times who Thor scales to and elder gods scale to

That isn't enough. Being part Elder God doesn't mean that base Thor is at their level, and base Thor isn't at the level of the Abstracts at all. He is explicitly weaker than Ego, Galactus, etc.


The tiering system says this:

"A 1-A character or realm, on the other hand, fundamentally surpasses lower states of existence, with their sheer superiority not being expressible as the sum, union or permutation of anything in these lesser states. They, in other words, transcend lower existences to the point that those vanish into nothingness"

 

[ObberGobb]

I think Low 1-A is a solid tier choice, but I'm even a but iffy on that, since characters like Nightmare, Dormammu, etc. are often called higher dimensional, not beyond dimension, indicating that they are bound by dimensionality

 

[Rgerdeena]

Those are holding back or mental blocks. When dealing with 1-A we need more than that. 1-A isn't just stronger than High 3-A, or even Low 1-A, it is such an enormous gap that the previous tiers literally do not exist next to it. Part of 1-A is that it is completely inaccessible.

"I inhabit the material world, and as such know only but a shadow of such a construct"

Because they are never treated as being that far above Herald Tiers, and have never shown qualitative superiority.

That isn't enough. Being part Elder God doesn't mean that base Thor is at their level, and base Thor isn't at the level of the Abstracts at all. He is explicitly weaker than Ego, Galactus, etc.


The tiering system says this:

"A 1-A character or realm, on the other hand, fundamentally surpasses lower states of existence, with their sheer superiority not being expressible as the sum, union or permutation of anything in these lesser states. They, in other words, transcend lower existences to the point that those vanish into nothingness"

Was going to refute these arguments, however, relooking at the scans, base Thor apparently only has a handful of 1-A feats and considering the abstracts’ m bodies vary and there’d need to be more evidence that he scales to their 1-A selves I am starting to agree that base thor could just be low 1-A at his peak

 

[Rgerdeena]

I think Low 1-A is a solid tier choice, but I'm even a but iffy on that, since characters like Nightmare, Dormammu, etc. are often called higher dimensional, not beyond dimension, indicating that they are bound by dimensionality

You can be bound by dimensionality and be low 1-A, since unlike with 1-A, low 1-A can be scaled to

 

[ObberGobb]

I'm starting to very strongly support Low 1-A over 1-A for all these characters. Personally I will admit that I don't quite see why the explanations for Mystic Realms and such are Low 1-A instead of High 1-B, but I'll trust the analysis of people more knowledgeable on the tiering system than me.

 

[ObberGobb]

Do you think that something like "Varies, High 3-A normally, Low 1-A with Divinity" or something could work, based on that tesseract scan?

 

[Antvasima]

Do you think that something like "Varies, High 3-A normally, Low 1-A with Divinity" or something could work, based on that tesseract scan?

Well, it is an improvement over what we have currently at least.

 

[ObberGobb]

Well, it is an improvement over what we have currently at least.

You seem to not even like Low 1-A. What issues do you have with it, and what would you personally prefer?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I don't think that individual universes in Marvel Comics reach anywhere near a Low 1-A level, especially given the early 1990s Doctor Strange cosmology definition which placed them as 3-dimensional, but since our community seems dead-set on keeping heavily exaggerated ratings, I suppose that my suggestion above, regarding tiering dependent on the scale of reality a higher entity manifests within, is a less bad solution than what we use currently.

 

[Entity]

Well, I don't think that individual universes in Marvel Comics reach anywhere near a Low 1-A level, especially given the early 1990s Doctor Strange cosmology definition which placed them as 3-dimensional, but since our community seems dead-set on keeping heavily exaggerated ratings, I suppose that my suggestion above, regarding tiering dependent on the scale of reality a higher entity manifests within, is a less bad solution than what we use currently.

the universe does not get to low 1-A, it's the "Earth" that reaches those level since it isn't composed only of one universe, but of multiple dimensions, some of those are higher dimensional and others go even beyond that, otherwise the Astral Plane would not be 1-A

 

[ObberGobb]

Does something like this sound good for a Varies explanation?

"Thor's power varies heavily depending on his mental and emotional state, and he both consciously and subconsciously holds back his immense power in most fights, even to the point of sometimes losing. When enraged or driven by great conviction Thor is capable of displaying power far beyond even what he knew he was capable of. Thor himself has stated that strength is relative to the need for it. Furthermore, it is implied that many gods are in a lower state when in mortal realms, as demonstrated with how Thor's physical body is limited to three-dimensional space while in the physical plane while his divinity transcends dimensions"

Then we'd have "High 3-A normally, up to Low 1-A with Divinity"

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that is better than what we use currently.

 

[Antvasima]

the universe does not get to low 1-A, it's the "Earth" that reaches those level since it isn't composed only of one universe, but of multiple dimensions, some of those are higher dimensional and others go even beyond that, otherwise the Astral Plane would not be 1-A

Well, I think that we have constructed an elaborate fanon construct, whereas the comicbook writers generally seem to treat the "Earths" as regular universes.

 

[Entity]

Well, I think that we have constructed an elaborate fanon construct, whereas the comicbook writers generally seem to treat the "Earths" as regular universes.

Not really, since they have all the different dimensions, the nine realms, the hells, ecc..., so the minimum low ball would be 2-A, not low 2-C

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

Does something like this sound good for a Varies explanation?

"Thor's power varies heavily on his mental and emotional state, and he both consciously and subconsciously holds back his immense power in most fights, even to the point of sometimes losing. When enraged or driven by great conviction Thor is capable of displaying power far beyond even what he knew he was capable of. Thor himself has stated that strength is relative to the need for it. Furthermore, it is implied that many gods are in a lower state when in mortal realms, as demonstrated with how Thor's physical body is limited to three-dimensional space while his divinity transcends dimensions"

Then we'd have "High 3-A normally, up to Low 1-A with Divinity"

I think that could work

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Capable of easily overpowering Hyperion once he begins to use more strength.

This is minor, but there are two issues:

1) You linked the wrong Hyperion

2) In Hyperion's defense, he had no idea how powerful Thor was at that moment, given how he refers to Mjolnir as a "mere hammer", Hyperion himself becomes more serious and impresses Thor with his strength. So it's not entirely fair to say Thor easily overpowers him.