TenSura LN Revision — Essence of Wank [ONE MORE STAFF NEEDED; 2:0:0]

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[Astral_Trinity439]

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[Ultimuru]

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I didn't know you wear that kind of underwear granny

 

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[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I'm a bit confused here.

I completely understand the reasoning for Souls and Factors being conceptual. However, since every soul is unique to a specific individual, they seem more consistent with Type 3 Concepts to me. Factors, on the other hand, govern the existence and definition of an entire species, so I can understand the argument for Type 2 Concepts in their case.

As for Type 1, from what I can tell, the reasoning appears to stem from the fact that beings who existed prior to space and time still possess souls. However, those souls would still only govern or correspond to a single entity, would they not?

Regarding spirits that embody concepts or laws, are we assuming that because a soul constitutes their essence, the soul itself scales to the concept or law being embodied? If so, has the destruction of such souls ever resulted in the disappearance or loss of the corresponding concept or law within the verse?

Even if that is the case, wouldn't those examples simply be exceptions rather than the norm? The OP states that every soul is unique, so it does not seem unreasonable that some souls could qualify as Type 1 Concepts, while others remain Type 3, depending on the nature of the being they belong to.

In that case, the classification would likely need to be evaluated on an individual basis rather than applied universally to all souls.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I completely understand the reasoning for Souls and Factors being conceptual. However, since every soul is unique to a specific individual, they seem more consistent with Type 3 Concepts to me. Factors, on the other hand, govern the existence and definition of an entire species, so I can understand the argument for Type 2 Concepts in their case.

The reasoning for type 1 for souls in general is that all beings, soul included, share a lineage with the great spirits, which are Cm1. As in, originally spirits separated from the great spirits. Spirits would be CM2/1. These spirits manifested in physical form. While the physical form is not CM, the spirit (with their souls being their essence) would still be CM2/1 as they didn't change. Later on the lineage, the physical parts of the spirits evolved/de-evolved more and more into other species, but their soul/spirit part should remain the same.

On the note of "what would humans embody", it'll be the concept of holy, since humans' ancestor is the Divine Humans (Spiritual life).

As for Type 1, from what I can tell, the reasoning appears to stem from the fact that beings who existed prior to space and time still possess souls.

Yep

However, those souls would still only govern or correspond to a single entity, would they not?

Apparently you can have a type 1 concept that only governs one object and all extensions of that object, as long as the concept is independent. This is taken from DT's words. Souls also existed before the concept of time (and space) so there's that independency too.

But that's only for humans and physical life. For spiritual lifeforms, since they are all ultimately spirits (of some sub-category), they all embody their respective attribute, so their CM should be type 1 derived from independency over a range equivalent to type 2 (sorry if my wording is confusing).

Regarding spirits that embody concepts or laws, are we assuming that because a soul constitutes their essence, the soul itself scales to the concept or law being embodied?

Yes

If so, has the destruction of such souls ever resulted in the disappearance or loss of the corresponding concept or law within the verse?

If there's only one spirit in a world? We don't know, as they never died in such a scenario. The scenarios they did die in, there would always be other spirits of the same type, so no effect occurred on the world (if one fire spirit got nuked, there's still many others).

But there's another way to prove independency, and that's that these spirits can exist at the end of time and space, which is outside the worlds they govern. The first of spirits (like Primordials) separated from the great spirits also existed before the concept of time (and space).

Also, spirits aren't laws on the scale of the entire verse, they only govern their local world. What does govern everything on a verse-wide scale are Attributes. Basically

Attributes (Verse-side CM1) -> Great Spirits (embody said attributes while acting as concepts for their local world, and have existed before the creation of space-time) -> Spirits (fragments of the great spirits).
Note: Great Spirits have never been destroyed/killed.

Even if that is the case, wouldn't those examples simply be exceptions rather than the norm? The OP states that every soul is unique, so it does not seem unreasonable that some souls could qualify as Type 1 Concepts, while others remain Type 3, depending on the nature of the being they belong to.

In that case, the classification would likely need to be evaluated on an individual basis rather than applied universally to all souls.

Well yeah, that was originally my point but some of @Deonment's points contended that, and after reaching a conclusion, we changed it to all souls in general being CM1. Here was the conclusion of said part of the discussion.

The original proposal was that SLFs have type 1 conceptual souls while non-spiritual life (physical life) have type 3.

 

[ReasonedZebra834]

Interesting

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

The reasoning for type 1 for souls in general is that all beings, soul included, share a lineage with the great spirits, which are Cm1. As in, originally spirits separated from the great spirits. Spirits would be CM2/1. These spirits manifested in physical form. While the physical form is not CM, the spirit (with their souls being their essence) would still be CM2/1 as they didn't change. Later on the lineage, the physical parts of the spirits evolved/de-evolved more and more into other species, but their soul/spirit part should remain the same.

On the note of "what would humans embody", it'll be the concept of holy, since humans' ancestor is the Divine Humans (Spiritual life).

Maybe I missed it, but is there a scan showing that a lineage's souls are part/linked to the spirits?

Apparently you can have a type 1 concept that only governs one object and all extensions of that object, as long as the concept is independent. This is taken from DT's words. Souls also existed before the concept of time (and space) so there's that independency too.

Oh, can I see the thread for that?

Well yeah, that was originally my point but some of @Deonment's points contended that, and after reaching a conclusion, we changed it to all souls in general being CM1. Here was the conclusion of said part of the discussion.

The original proposal was that SLFs have type 1 conceptual souls while non-spiritual life (physical life) have type 3.

Ngl, that discussion is a bit hard to follow.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Maybe I missed it, but is there a scan showing that a lineage's souls are part/linked to the spirits?

Umm, I'm not quite sure what you mean, but from the amount I understood, I'll answer; Spirits (Elemental Monsters is an alt translation) all have Souls. And the lineage of spirits stuff is here and here.

Oh, can I see the thread for that?

Of course!

Conceptual Manipulation Clarifications/Revisions

We goes at each other throat again lol Anyway i fine with either name because it is mostly just name, but i do prefer keep the name "Type 3" rather than using "Other". Also i am thinking about rename Type 3 from Lesser Realist Concept to Local, Personal Concept. When we revise conceptual, we...

vsbattles.com

Ngl, that discussion is a bit hard to follow.

Understandable. I'll try to summarize it.

1. It was originally assumed that souls of humans and physical life do not embody a universal concept, so they are only type 3 (or personal type 1).
2. Then it was discussed that humans also trace back to spirits and spiritual life (Divine Humans) with an attribute (holy) that they embody, thus the contention of point 1 was removed.
3. As a result, it was set that all souls in general are type 1 (universal).

I will have to go sleep now. You can leave any more questions you have here, and I'll answer them when I wake up :d

 

[ReasonedZebra834]

I agree

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Umm, I'm not quite sure what you mean, but from the amount I understood, I'll answer; Spirits (Elemental Monsters is an alt translation) all have Souls. And the lineage of spirits stuff is here and here.

I get that, but I'm referring to the part where you said their soul/spirit parts are the same.

Of course!

Conceptual Manipulation Clarifications/Revisions

We goes at each other throat again lol Anyway i fine with either name because it is mostly just name, but i do prefer keep the name "Type 3" rather than using "Other". Also i am thinking about rename Type 3 from Lesser Realist Concept to Local, Personal Concept. When we revise conceptual, we...

vsbattles.com

Maybe I'm blind, but I don't see where he mentions that Type 1 Concepts can simply govern a single object.

Understandable. I'll try to summarize it.

1. It was originally assumed that souls of humans and physical life do not embody a universal concept, so they are only type 3 (or personal type 1).
2. Then it was discussed that humans also trace back to spirits and spiritual life (Divine Humans) with an attribute (holy) that they embody, thus the contention of point 1 was removed.

I think I get what you're saying. Some Factors belonged to spirits who existed before time and space, proving that the factors themselves that humans inherited are Type 1?

If that's the case, I have no issues with that, though i still feel Souls being Type 3, and Factors being Type 2 or 1 would make more sense, since they are separate things, even if one exists inside the other.

I will have to go sleep now. You can leave any more questions you have here, and I'll answer them when I wake up :d

Gotcha

 

[Deonment]

Ngl, that discussion is a bit hard to follow.

Firstly was that the fundamental nature of the soul does not differ between humans, monsters, spirits, and what else; they all still exhibit the same properties, and are made of the same substance (spiritons), and as such, their metaphysical nature should not differ, so if a spirit's soul is type 1, so then should a human's soul, and all other souls also

Spoiler: Digression

There is a digression I will go into here about how our concept types are flawed (and that we really shouldn't have types at all with our current standards), with regard to the automatically assumed superority of the various concept types, and the propogation of the idea that personal concepts (as in, the concept of a given indviudal, of which they themselves are the particular, rather than a person concept akin to a specific person's concept of death, though that could equally be valid for higher degrees of concept rating) are type 3 automatically, and cannot reach a superior status if they are shown to have the indepdence that we require of type 1 concepts. There's also the whole matter of metaphysical aspect ordering, and the somewhat basic, and honestly understandable, assumption that lesser concept types could not ground greater concept types, as in a concept of concepts within a verse could be type 2, but those concepts which it grounds are type 1 and we'd have issues, but that's a wholly seperate topic if I am to be serious. There's also a secondary thought I could bring up in relation to this verse in specific, but honestly, that'd once more be another topic for another thread.

The second matter is the nature of factors, factors are parts of the soul that define your being (but do not themselves define the soul, everything after is what get's affected), they decide whether you are a spirit, monster, human, or what else, and these factors have a lineage which traces all the way back to the great spirits themselves, with for example, the factors of Ogres tracing back to those of the Enki, the first fire spirits to have "split off" from the Great Spirit of Fire, and such a principle applying to the rest of the factors and species (see for example all dragons tracing back to the elemental dragon for example). These factors are then what allow individuals to evolve into a spiritual lifeform, the exact same type of being as the more naturally occurring spirits who are already accepted to be type 1 concepts.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I get that, but I'm referring to the part where you said their soul/spirit parts are the same.

You can refer to the part using Spiritrons in this post just a bit below.

Maybe I'm blind, but I don't see where he mentions that Type 1 Concepts can simply govern a single object.

I think I might have worded my statement wrongly. DT said that type 1 don't have to be universal (as in encompassing at least a universe under their scope of governance) in scale.

So the conclusion is that even a concept governing an individual existence would still be able to get type 1 as long as it fills the rest of the type 1 requirements (mainly independency).

I made further changes to make it so that concepts don't need to be universal in AoE anymore. I hope the formulation is ok.

This and this post from DT probably explain it better; type 1 concepts can govern things on a limited scale, as much as limited to only one object (like the concept of a particular dwarf).

I think I get what you're saying. SomeFactors belonged to spirits who existed before time and space, proving that the factors themselves that humans inherited are Type 1?

Yes. Factors like the ones deciding species, shape of the body, etc. would be the same as for spirits. The new parts of the factors unique to humans would be their physical body's limitations. But the "Factor" itself is for the same nature regardless of what it decides, thus Type 1 in general.

If that's the case, I have no issues with that, though i still feel Souls being Type 3, and Factors being Type 2 or 1 would make more sense, since they are separate things, even if one exists inside the other.

A thing about this. Soul can refer to both the whole container (of aspects deeper than the soul) or to specifically the layer covering the heart core, called the "soul". In this case the factors are present as part of the "layer" called the soul itself, rather than on a deeper part inside them.

Since we know the Soul layer is made of all spiritrons, we can generalize the Soul = Factor in nature. So the relation between soul and factor is like between my body and my arm (same nature), rather than my body and my mind that said body contains (not the same nature).

Also, I think I can answer this in a better way than before:

Regarding spirits that embody concepts or laws, are we assuming that because a soul constitutes their essence, the soul itself scales to the concept or law being embodied? If so, has the destruction of such souls ever resulted in the disappearance or loss of the corresponding concept or law within the verse?

So what I wanna say first is; A single Spirit's materialized form is essentially a single natural phenomena in its original, purest form. So to say a Spirit is said phenomena itself. For example, a fire burning the forest can in essence be a single Fire spirit. A flame in a small area around the campfire can be a fire spirit too.

So what happens when their soul is destroyed? Well, then the elementals/spirits die. And when that happen, the Spirit disappears from the world. The phenomena that was the materialized spirit itself also would thus also disappear. Spirit magic, which uses the power of spirits, can also bring changes to the Fire or anything else that a spirit governs.

So yes, destroying a spirit down to their soul does erase the thing they govern from the world too. Just that said "thing" isn't universal in size or anything. But that shouldn't be be a problem based on what DT said, since indeodency is still there (the section in the OP proving independency of soul over the materialized body/object.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

You can refer to the part using Spiritrons in this post just a bit below.

I think I might have worded my statement wrongly. DT said that type 1 don't have to be universal (as in encompassing at least a universe under their scope of governance) in scale.

So the conclusion is that even a concept governing an individual existence would still be able to get type 1 as long as it fills the rest of the type 1 requirements (mainly independency).

This and this post from DT probably explain it better; type 1 concepts can govern things on a limited scale, as much as limited to only one object (like the concept of a particular dwarf).

Yes. Factors like the ones deciding species, shape of the body, etc. would be the same as for spirits. The new parts of the factors unique to humans would be their physical body's limitations. But the "Factor" itself is for the same nature regardless of what it decides, thus Type 1 in general.

A thing about this. Soul can refer to both the whole container (of aspects deeper than the soul) or to specifically the layer covering the heart core, called the "soul". In this case the factors are present as part of the "layer" called the soul itself, rather than on a deeper part inside them.

Since we know the Soul layer is made of all spiritrons, we can generalize the Soul = Factor in nature. So the relation between soul and factor is like between my body and my arm (same nature), rather than my body and my mind that said body contains (not the same nature).

Also, I think I can answer this in a better way than before:

So what I wanna say first is; A single Spirit's materialized form is essentially a single natural phenomena in its original, purest form. So to say a Spirit is said phenomena itself. For example, a fire burning the forest can in essence be a single Fire spirit. A flame in a small area around the campfire can be a fire spirit too.

So what happens when their soul is destroyed? Well, then the elementals/spirits die. And when that happen, the Spirit disappears from the world. The phenomena that was the materialized spirit itself also would thus also disappear. Spirit magic, which uses the power of spirits, can also bring changes to the Fire or anything else that a spirit governs.

So yes, destroying a spirit down to their soul does erase the thing they govern from the world too. Just that said "thing" isn't universal in size or anything. But that shouldn't be be a problem based on what DT said, since indeodency is still there (the section in the OP proving independency of soul over the materialized body/object.

Alright then, I suppose I see no issues with Type 1.

 

[Mizuki67]

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Alright then, I suppose I see no issues with Type 1.

Could you please close the thread too? Cuz:

Note: This CRT is simply to establish that Heart Core =/=Concept, and that Soul = Concept instead. However, it does not introduce changes to the page except editing the mentions of "Conceptual Self" accordingly. The CRT right after this one will be the one where we make introduce a new page for bodily and fundamental aspects.