TenSura LN Revision — More Details on the Otherworld

[PHANtomFELdway]

just wait for astral fr. And he already accepted 2 and 4

 

[ReasonedZebra834]

This isn't a justification by itself for multiple temporal directions. This justification if true would also be High 1-B and not Low 1-C.

Reiner is wrong. Our FAQ directly states that this is not a justification

What counts is if you have a space time that embeds other spaces and has those spaces completely erased but the space time is still going on. Just having a time flow while other's don't isn't a hyper timeline.

This is the only justification so far that might imply a hyper-timeline.

Time is not a dimension. Its a series of states flowing forward and backwards infinitely detailing make up of matter. It is not a dimension on the wiki by default.

This is incorrect. Time in the higher realm can still flow in a forwards-backwards motion without requiring a higher time axis. Its why a High 1-B multiverse containing a Low 2-C universe can still function on a single time axis.

I can see this being a justification since it can imply that time branches in a time-like fashion. But it's also using conscious effort

If these space-warps are natural then it counts, if they're not natural then it's not a justification

Why are you repeating the same thing?

 

[ReasonedZebra834]

This isn't a justification by itself for multiple temporal directions. This justification if true would also be High 1-B and not Low 1-C.

Reiner is wrong. Our FAQ directly states that this is not a justification

What counts is if you have a space time that embeds other spaces and has those spaces completely erased but the space time is still going on. Just having a time flow while other's don't isn't a hyper timeline.

This is the only justification so far that might imply a hyper-timeline.

Time is not a dimension. Its a series of states flowing forward and backwards infinitely detailing make up of matter. It is not a dimension on the wiki by default.

This is incorrect. Time in the higher realm can still flow in a forwards-backwards motion without requiring a higher time axis. Its why a High 1-B multiverse containing a Low 2-C universe can still function on a single time axis.

I can see this being a justification since it can imply that time branches in a time-like fashion. But it's also using conscious effort

If these space-warps are natural then it counts, if they're not natural then it's not a justification

????

 

[Ultimuru]

????

I think you should stop talking bro.

 

[Qawsedf234]

His argument in method 2, if we take it by itself and assume its actually valid what hes saying, only suggests that the "time" in the otherworld is higher dimensional relative to the 4th dimension of time, therefore only 5D. that is not the same as a time dimension that is another degree of freedom over 5 dimensional space which is what a 6D stc is in this scenario and what he argued as a tl:dr

The logic given is this

• A universe is 3D+1
• A universe is completely embedded with Otherworld. Meaning Otherworld is 4D
• There's an infinite number of universes, so Otherworld has an insignificant 5D axis or 4D.X to contain them all
• The OP in the last thread successfully argue that since Otherworld requires greater than universe traversal all dimensions are significant in size. So Otherworld in 5D
• Otherworld has its own time axis, so it's 5D+1

??

If you don't have a point, then don't comment. You're juat taking up thread space.

 

[ReasonedZebra834]

The logic given is this

• A universe is 3D+1
• A universe is completely embedded with Otherworld. Meaning Otherworld is 4D
• There's an infinite number of universes, so Otherworld has an insignificant 5D axis or 4D.X to contain them all
• The OP in the last thread successfully argue that since Otherworld requires greater than universe traversal all dimensions are significant in size. So Otherworld in 5D
• Otherworld has its own time axis, so it's 5D+1

If you don't have a point, then don't comment. You're juat taking up thread space.

I'm new here, so I won't interfere anymore.

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

I assume we are currently in a grace period since we have 3 admins agreements?

 

[Vesxpura]

Otherworld has its own time axis, so it's 5D+1

yeah and that is the current point of contention. nothing suggests that the otherworld has its own time axis in the relevant sense that grants it a 6D status. I argue this because something can have "time flow" while not necessarily having time as a dimension. considering that time flowing is a metaphor in itself.

and for the time travel thing, like i said it only suggests time is 5D just like the otherworlds space. not that time is 6D and encompasses uncountably infinite slices of the otherworlds space

 

[AstraphelNoctis4]

I can include a scan from the manga itself to reinforce the author' argument in this publication?

No, we already have enough votes, and Qaw agreed anyway.

 

[Qawsedf234]

argue this because something can have "time flow" while not necessarily having time as a dimension. considering that time flowing is a metaphor in itself.

Method 2 and 4 would show a time axis in my view.

 

[AlexSamDen]

yeah and that is the current point of contention. nothing suggests that the otherworld has its own time axis in the relevant sense that grants it a 6D status. I argue this because something can have "time flow" while not necessarily having time as a dimension. considering that time flowing is a metaphor in itself.

Huh?

After all, the time axis differs for each dimension.

 

[Cipher72]

Alright so two things,
Firstly,
Anyone that's going to FRA or talk about something else that doesn't have to do with the current topic can do such elsewhere (this isn't me being rude or ordering around just politely asking)
Now,
I will break this into three points

Spoiler

OP is arguing that Otherworld should be dimensional superior to the realms, that's already established.

I believe that's already established in prior threads.

Spoiler

significant in size

That's already accepted from reading the OP no ?

Basically, we have a significant 5-Dimensional Space in our hands. So, I'll get straight to the point:

Dimensions: Low 1-C

Currently, Dimensions are accepted as Low 1-C due to the Otherworld (Dimensional Space) being Low 1-C (5D)

Spoiler

and have it's own time axis

Correct this is the main argument for this CRT

So essentially the Otherworld is already accepted as significant 5-D

It's just I'm not sure of it's 4D.X + 1 or 5D+1. Based on the previous thread I guess its 5D+1 even if I'm not entirely surd if that's needed.

Yes, it's 5-D (5 spatial significant dimensional space) + 1 Temporal Dimension that the Otherworld has based on prior threads.

Okay I'll say something in my mind later

Dude you are new to the community and I get that you wanna contribute but please summarise your thoughts and add only relevant information. Otherwise We will confuse Qaws thx.

 

[Vesxpura]

Method 2 and 4 would show a time axis in my view.

yeah fine, sure. but thats not the problem here. assume i agree with you that it is a time axis. the problem is whether or not that time axis acts as a another degree of freedom relative to the 5 dimensional space that is the otherworld. Thats what actually qualifies for higher dimensionality. R^6 is greater than R^5 because of another degree of freedom. time just being a "time" axis isnt enough to qualify for this. im suggesting that the time axis here is just 5 dimensional and uses an already established coordinate set in R^5 while not introducing anything new

 

[Nonynho]

Ain't having "another separate time" besides the other 5 dimensions exactly what you're saying?

 

[Vesxpura]

Ain't having "another separate time" besides the other 5 dimensions exactly what you're saying?

pls disambiguate. idk what ur tryna say

 

[Noobish2006]

yeah fine, sure. but thats not the problem here. assume i agree with you that it is a time axis. the problem is whether or not that time axis acts as a another degree of freedom relative to the 5 dimensional space that is the otherworld. Thats what actually qualifies for higher dimensionality. R^6 is greater than R^5 because of another degree of freedom. time just being a "time" axis isnt enough to qualify for this. im suggesting that the time axis here is just 5 dimensional and uses an already established coordinate set in R^5 while not introducing anything new

It's a time axis for a 5d structure what's the problem?

 

[Vesxpura]

It's a time axis for a 5d structure what's the problem?

its not. thats the problem. he never proves that the time axis in this case is dimensionally superior to the 5 dimensional space of the otherworld just like how the 4th dimension of time is superior to the 3 dimensions of space in a universe

 

[Nonynho]

pls disambiguate. idk what ur tryna say

you say having "another time" is not enough to call this 6D instead of 5D
at the same time you say "to become +1D it needs another degree of freedom"
and fail to explain why having Time 2: Electric Boogaloo besides other 5 dimentions is not "another degree of freedom"

 

[Qawsedf234]

time just being a "time" axis isnt enough to qualify for this. im suggesting that the time axis here is just 5 dimensional and uses an already established coordinate set in R^5 while not introducing anything new

I mean you're arguing 4D.x + 1. Which can be true, but as of right now the accepted version is 5D. Having a time axis means that space-time wise the realm is 1D higher than its geometric dimensions.

 

[Nonynho]

ngl i love how i speak in the most slangful way but i'm saying basically the same thing an actual knowledgeable member on the matter says

 

[Cipher72]

yeah fine, sure. but thats not the problem here. assume i agree with you that it is a time axis. the problem is whether or not that time axis acts as a another degree of freedom relative to the 5 dimensional space that is the otherworld. Thats what actually qualifies for higher dimensionality. R^6 is greater than R^5 because of another degree of freedom. time just being a "time" axis isnt enough to qualify for this. im suggesting that the time axis here is just 5 dimensional and uses an already established coordinate set in R^5 while not introducing anything new

Umm that's a pretty Unconventional assumption, if there exists a flow of time for a space the typical assumption is that said Timeline that takes snapshots of the R⁵ is 6 Dimensional in nature, and you can use said timeline to traverse the fifth dimensional space because like Astral pointed out in his OP Time and Space are orthogonal. It's just that the timeline instead of being a standard 4-D via taking uncountable infinite snapshots of a 3-D plane is now 1-C(6-D) via taking snapshots of the R⁵ plane. To assume that the timeline takes snapshots of a 4-dimensional space one would need to prove the contrary otherwise you would essentially be subjecting a burden that's almost impossible to prove for any fictitious works.
To cite the FAQ,

There are broadly speaking three schools of thought regarding time: Eternalism, Presentism, and the Growing Block theory of time. Eternalism is the philosophy that the "past", "present", and "future" all coexist and extend infinitely. Presentism is the philosophy that the "past" and "future" aren't real, as they either have happened or have not happened yet, and the Growing Block philosophy is that the "past" and "present" are real, but the future has not happened yet. Per the Universe Page, VSBW treats all franchises as defaulting to Eternalism, so there's an infinite series of temporal snapshots that extend into the past and into the future, each containing the entire universe, granting an uncountable infinite number of snapshots of that particular space for the entire space-time continuum.

&

The relationship between the spatial dimensions of a universe and the additional temporal dimension(s) may be visualized as something akin to the frames of a movie placed side-by-side. Basically, the time-like direction may be thought of as a line comprised of uncountably infinitely many points, each of which is a static "snapshot" of the whole universe at any given moment, with the set of all such events comprising the totality of spacetime. But, a cosmological structure can contain two or more perpendicular time axis, rather than just a singular time axis. By having two perpendicular axis the cosmology must have a "higher" level of time that can fit the crossing time axis, for the same reason why a geometric "X" line and a geometric "Y" line would require a two-dimensional plane to catalogue their interaction properly. Instead of a direction of movement, however, a temporal axis is the temporal element of the cosmology, which is the "snapshots" along the line that captures all the states in which the cosmology can exist in. By having two axis, there must be an even higher-dimensional container, as every axis would add an uncountable infinite element to the cosmology, as there must be an uncountable infinite number of snapshots to an already uncountable infinite number of snapshots.

So, for a typical universe, it is a 3-A or three-dimensional structure of significant size collected as an uncountable infinite number of static snapshots through its time axis, making the space-time of the cosmology Low 2-C to fit all the possible universe iterations (3D+1).

I get the merit in your suggestion but it's just not the standard assumption afaik.

 

[Vesxpura]

I mean you're arguing 4D.x + 1. Which can be true, but as of right now the accepted version is 5D. Having a time axis means that space-time wise the realm is 1D higher than its geometric dimensions.

are you not assuming specific properities of the time axis in this case? that very well could just be not true for the specific fiction in this case. i mean the OP literally suggests that time does not operate the same as in a regular universe. that is grounds enough to not assume specific properities about time in higher dimensional manifolds

i mean consider that 5D + 1 needs to be equal to 6 dimensional space.The OP does not prove that it needs a 6 dimensional space or is equal to one. im not saying that it cant. im just saying that the OP doesnt prove this to be the case.

you can use said timeline to traverse the fifth dimensional space

correction. it is only suggested that the timeline is used to traverse 4 dimensional space. so this point just falls apart.

This is actually more supporting evidence for my point. in the previous crt he mentioned in the speed section that the distance between 2 universes is the 5th dimension. the timeline here acts as the distance between the world in the future and the world in the past. therefore it acts as a 5th dimension

To assume that the timeline takes snapshots of a 4-dimensional space one would need to prove the contrary otherwise you would essentially be subjecting a burden that's almost impossible to prove for any fictitious works.

literally what he says in method 4 btw:

Which means he used the Otherworld's time axis to go from a point where his World had been destroyed, to a "past" where it still existed.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I went away for like an hour or two to edit a sandbox and damn, this is already over. Anyways I'll add votes

If these space-warps are natural then it counts, if they're not natural then it's not a justification

Yeah, they're natural. Rimuru's power allows them to control them in a way as to go wherever he wants, but he doesn't generate them himself.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

are you not assuming specific properities of the time axis in this case? that very well could just be not true for the specific fiction in this case. i mean the OP literally suggests that time does not operate the same as in a regular universe. that is grounds enough to not assume specific properities about time in higher dimensional manifolds

??
This is too much nitpicking. It is different insofar as that its higher-dimensional beyond the normal 4D one, that doesn't change the fact that it's still Time, thus no reason to assume it shows different properties.

i mean consider that 5D + 1 needs to be equal to 6 dimensional space.The OP does not prove that it needs a 6 dimensional space or is equal to one. im not saying that it cant. im just saying that the OP doesnt prove this to be the case.

??
5+1 is 6 gng, wtf are you arguing...
You don't need it to be spelled out that it's literally 6D. Not every fiction has statements like "11-dimensional goddess".

 

[Cipher72]

literally what he says in method 4 btw:

Am I correct in assuming that you are saying said timeline is limited to taking 4-D snapshots in terms of scope or is well taking 4-D snapshots because Rimuru used said timeline to time travel back to the past when his world wasn't destroyed

Which means he used the Otherworld's time axis to go from a point where his World had been destroyed, to a "past" where it still existed.

Can you elaborate on how exactly this quote serves to restrict the scope of the timeline in taking snapshots of the higher dimensional space ?
It's like arguing that because someone time travelled across a 4-D space using a 8-D timeline that somehow means that the timeline is only restricted to 4-D.
What's Shown ≠ Limitation.

 

[Nonynho]

i mean the OP literally suggests that time does not operate the same as in a regular universe.

Because if it operated the exact same then it'd be talking about the 4D part of stuff

4D and 6D stuff...do not operate in the same way...?

 

[Vesxpura]

This is too much nitpicking. It is different insofar as that its higher-dimensional beyond the normal 4D one, that doesn't change the fact that it's still Time, thus no reason to assume it shows different properties.

ive already stated many times why time is arbitrary in the context of real coordinate space and higher dimensions. you js keep making an argument from repetition without addressing the problem at hand

wtf are you arguing...

The OP does not prove that it needs a 6 dimensional space or is equal to one

What's Shown ≠ Limitation.

whats not shown ≠ that is the case.
As far as i know. it could very well be limited to 4D snapshots. thats literally what most of the OP suggests. ur just blowing it out of proportions and trying to employ no limits to the phenomena to push agenda

Because if it operated the exact same then it'd be talking about the 4D part of stuff

ok. i agree with this. what do you want me to say?

Can you elaborate on how exactly this quote serves to restrict the scope

By default. whats shown is infact a limitation. or we could just say every omnipotent character is tier 0 regardless of whether they "show" the specific attributes possessed by tier 0 characters because as you said whats shown ≠ limitation. therefore they are unlimited unless proven otherwise.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

ive already stated many times why time is arbitrary in the context of real coordinate space and higher dimensions. you js keep making an argument from repetition without addressing the problem at hand

It doesn't. We already assume Time has the same properties regardless of whether it encompasses a 4D space, an 11D space or any arbitrarily higher-dimensional space. That's literally one of the reasons why HDE doesn't give imm speed by default.

The OP does not prove that it needs a 6 dimensional space or is equal to one

And from the way you're wording it, you're also arguing 5D + 1D isn't a 6-dimensional construct... which is a dumb argument ngl. You're practically arguing 1+1 =/= 2 just cuz it involves higher dimensions...

 

[Nonynho]

ok. i agree with this. what do you want me to say?

then i successfuly showed ya why "op says this operates different than other time so you can't 'assume' that" is not an actual argument to disagree with the proposition

and why you gotta detail more about why what OP says =/= 6D

 

[Vesxpura]

We already assume Time has the same properties

reference?

you're also arguing 5D + 1D isn't a 6-dimensional construct

reading comprehension?

consider that 5D + 1 needs to be equal to 6 dimensional space

ur basically js presupposing it qualifies for 5D + 1 without proving anything

 

[Cipher72]

This is my last reply,
I will just address these two you may reply to this or you can agree to disagree or wtv also @Astral_Trinity439 calm down

whats not shown ≠ that is the case.
As far as i know. it could very well be limited to 4D snapshots. thats literally what most of the OP suggests. ur just blowing it out of proportions and trying to employ no limits to the phenomena to push agenda

By default. whats shown is infact a limitation. or we could just say every omnipotent character is tier 0 regardless of whether they "show" the specific attributes possessed by tier 0 characters because as you said whats shown ≠ limitation. therefore they are unlimited unless proven otherwise.

Disregarding the wild comparison you brought up, you are essentially limiting the capability of a timeline, what's by default assumed to take snapshots of the space via arguing a showing.
What you are doing is looking at a character using a 1-A energy source to demolish a building and saying that makes said energy source Building level because it's shown to destroy buildings without there ever being an established cap demonstrating/establishing that the energy source can't output higher order energy
At no point Rimuru needed to traverse a 5-D space, it wasn't necessary as such he didn't do it. I am not asking you to grant additional credence to the timeline or arguing something that isn't established already, what I am doing is saying that based on the FAQ and general default assumptions the timeline is 1-C(6-D) by virtue of taking uncountable infinite snapshots of the significant 5-D Space. There's no burden on the OP to prove that the timeline does exactly that because the FAQ deems such burden unnecessary and considers it the default assumption as such a showing that doesn't demonstrate the full capabilities of said timeline or the lack of higher showing doesn't negate the OP's arguments. That's all
TLDR;
In a void
Lower order feats ≠ Hard Cap

 

[Vesxpura]

Lower order feats ≠ Hard Cap

nobody said they were a hard cap. just a cap as far as someones knowledge would extend to of such a feat.

ur conflating the usual misinformed assumption of dc feats ultimately limiting ap. and the cap of statements that have no further elaboration. my comparison is infact valid. while you just shifted to a different topic.

for example. if we have a statement that suggests that a character can destroy buildings and it is never expanded upon further. we have to assume thats the persons limit for now. unless extra evidence is provided that shows they scale higher. we have no reason to assume they do scale higher.

the same is here. just because it does act as a timeline that slices all 4d spaces. we have no reason to assume it also slices 5d space.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

reference?

FAQ. Check the section about "HDE grants speed or not".

reading comprehension?

na, but you should word your argument better twin

Anyways Imma stop replying unless a staff comes up and asks me something. Already tired from other stuff.

 

[Vesxpura]

FAQ. Check the section about "HDE grants speed or not".

faq about speed doesnt even say anything about time. all it does is talk about how displacement can still be measured in a higher dimensional space. it presupposes the higher dimensional space already has a qualifying time axis that is another degree of freedom relative to the higher dimensional space. and considering that Qawsedf said this about time too

Time is not a dimension. Its a series of states flowing forward and backwards infinitely detailing make up of matter. It is not a dimension on the wiki by default.

and i think qawsedf is a bit more qualified than you or me in terms of the wiki standards

 

[Qawsedf234]

and i think qawsedf is a bit more qualified than you or me in terms of the wiki standards

Time is not a physical dimension. Time existing means that space-time in totality needs to be +1D to handle a transinfinite number of temporal snapshots of the base space. By showing there's a time axis at all, you're showing the space-time container is +1D.

If your franchise is 5D+1 the most you can be is physically 5D unless your also able to transcend your temporal axis. You also only scale to 6D if you can erase the space-time continuum of the 5D+1 area.

 

[Vesxpura]

Time is not a physical dimension. Time existing means that space-time in totality needs to be +1D to handle a transinfinite number of temporal snapshots of the base space. By showing there's a time axis at all, you're showing the space-time container is +1D.

Agree with most of it. except for the last part. i dont believe that we should assume that just having a time axis by default means it takes an uncountably infinite amount of snapshots of the space relative to higher dimensional spaces. as far as the OP is concerned. they only ever establish it taking snapshots of a universe(or a 4 dimensional space) since the time dimension is just translated into a spatial dimension for the sake of real coordinate space. Therefore it is unreasonable to just assume that same time dimension takes snapshots of the base 5 dimensional space.

The fact that it is concieveable that space itself can change with time or in the same manner as time already kinda shows the sort of bias towards any mention of time dimensions. i understand it being assumed for regular universes. but thats only understandable due to the universality and commonality of it. Higher dimensions dont share this property which is why i personally believe i have established this criterion from the faq

the cosmological structures in a work are assumed to be the bare minimum size required to adhere to both the source material and the tiering system.

5D is the bare minimum size needed as it not only accounts for the time axis as suggested in the OP but also the higher dimensional nature of the otherworld. Heavy emphasis on minimum

might be my last message for now

 

[Qawsedf234]

dont believe that we should assume that just having a time axis by default means it takes an uncountably infinite amount of snapshots of the space relative to higher dimensional spaces. as far as the OP is concerned

I mean... we do

Q: How are timelines used on the wiki?
A: There are broadly speaking three schools of thought regarding time: Eternalism, Presentism, and the Growing Block theory of time. Eternalism is the philosophy that the "past", "present", and "future" all coexist and extend infinitely. Presentism is the philosophy that the "past" and "future" aren't real, as they either have happened or have not happened yet, and the Growing Block philosophy is that the "past" and "present" are real, but the future has not happened yet. Per the Universe Page, VSBW treats all franchises as defaulting to Eternalism, so there's an infinite series of temporal snapshots that extend into the past and into the future, each containing the entire universe, granting an uncountable infinite number of snapshots of that particular space for the entire space-time continuum. However, if a franchise does not follow Eternalism but another temporal philosophy, it will be tiered that way. In such cases, greater examination is needed regarding cosmology. Without an infinite timestream, there's no longer an uncountable infinite number of temporal snapshots, which means that universes would not default to Low 2-C unless they have explicit evidence for a fourth-dimensional axis of significant size.

You'd have to prove Eternalism isn't true for that franchise.

Therefore it is unreasonable to just assume that same time dimension takes snapshots of the base 5 dimensional space.

The same time dimension does. You have a 3-Dimensional physical universe and a 4-dimensional space-time container. By virtue of it being entirely suspended in Otherworld, it must also be spatially 4D to 5D.

5D is the bare minimum size needed as it not only accounts for the time axis as suggested in the OP but also the higher dimensional nature of the otherworld

I don't think this space qualifies for 5D in yhe first place, since 4D.X is more reasonable. But as it currently stands, thr accepted position is 5D spatially as agreed on in the other thread.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

You'd have to prove Eternalism isn't true for that franchise.

To be fair, eternalism does not necessarily prove that a timeline can be divided into an uncountable number of 'snapshots' in the material world. It only establishes an ontological equivalence between all 'snapshots' at any coordinate of the temporal line.

 

[BonjourGnome]

To be fair, eternalism does not necessarily prove that a timeline can be divided into an uncountable number of 'snapshots' in the material world. It only establishes an ontological equivalence between all 'snapshots' at any coordinate of the temporal line.

Can you cite this?

 

[Vesxpura]

I mean... we do
You'd have to prove Eternalism isn't true for that franchise.

I mean correct me if im wrong but in the text you referenced it suggests that eternalism, by definition, corresponds to a past, future and present and seems to only reference low 2-C stcs. Consdering that. the OP kind of already debunks eternalism for me, since the time in the OW doesnt follow past present future. and the time does not govern 3 dimensional space but rather 4 dimensional space. A bit more on this below

(it has been brought to my attention by berny(the goat) that the definition of eternalism used by vsbw is specific to vsbw and not a general use notion, so this just further supports this point)

The same time dimension does. You have a 3-Dimensional physical universe and a 4-dimensional space-time container. By virtue of it being entirely suspended in Otherworld, it must also be spatially 4D to 5D.

I mean im leaning towards the idea that time here doesnt govern the otherworld. from the evidence it can only be justifiably inferred that time is a hypertimeline. Anything beyond that is just assumptions or unjustified extrapolation which is what i have a problem with.

I don't think this space qualifies for 5D in yhe first place

i agree but it is what it is, my argument already assumes 5D to be the case so eh.

Can you site this?

Eternalism (philosophy of time) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org