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Bleach - Speed

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Infinite9Luck

Infinite9Luck

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Hi everyone, this Calc has been accepted by @Damage3245 here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Arc7Kuroi/Cien's_Cero

New Calc approved: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Infinite9Luck/Cien's_Cero_goes_into_Outer_Space

It wasn't really relevant before, since people scaled much higher, but now it can be useful, so this thread is to formalise and apply the scaling.
Please do not derail with scaling that hasn't been accepted at all before.

To give more context, this feat has been performed by Cien at chapter 15, page 129, Cien at page 118 same chapter was stated to have still only 60% of his power, and he reached 100% only after chapter 18, so 3 whole chapters later, even before that, Cien and Zaraki were compared to Full Hollow Ichigo.

Zaraki reacted and matched a massively stronger GRC from Cien, 100 pages after the one that reached outer space at 60% power. Thus he scale bare min to the weaker one.

The scaling mainly focused on Ichigo as reference, will look like this:

60% Base Cien: 0.01c / Sub-Relativistic | NEW CALC 0.066c Sub-Relativistic +
100% Cien: 0.016c Sub-Relativistic | NEW CALC 0.11c Relativistic
Full Hollow Ichigo: 0.016c (Stated to be comparable to Cien chapter 18) / Full Hollow 100%: 0.033c / Sub-Relativistic | NEW CALC 0.22c Relativistic
75% Yhwach: 0.033c (Fought Shikai Yamamoto, Stomped Post-SAFWY Zaraki so >) Sub-Relativistic | NEW CALC 0.22c Relativistic
100% Yhwach: 0.044c / Sub-Relativistic | NEW CALC 0.293c Relativistic
SK suppressed Yhwach/No Almighty: 0.088c (Absorbed the totality SK's Reiatsu, which currently scale higher to just Base Yhwach by itself, so minimum a x2) Sub-Relativistic + | NEW CALC 0.586c Relativistic +
TS Ichigo: 0.088c (Reacted to SK Yhwach attacks, as accepted on his profile) / Sub-Relativistic + | NEW CALC 0.586c Relativistic +
TB Ichigo (x5): 0.444c or Hollowfication(x5): 0.444c / SK with Almighty/Serious: 0.444c (Kept up with Hollowfied Ichigo) / Relativistic | NEW CALC 2.93c FTL
TB + Hollow: 2.2c / PSK: 2.2c / FTL | NEW CALC 14.65c FTL

SUMMARY: 60% Cien: 0.066c, 100% Cien: 0.11c, FH 100%: 0.22c, 75% Yhwach: 0.22c, 100% base Yhwach: 0.293c, SK Yhwach suppressed (x2): 0.586c, Hollowfied Ichigo (x5): 2.93c, TB + Hollow (x5): 14.65c

Other people scaling:
Zaraki Post-SAFWY scales to Cien 0.11c
Zaraki Post-Unohana scales to Fullbring Bankai Ichigo/100% Yhwach 0.293c
Azashiro scales to Post-SAFWY Zaraki 0.11c
FB Bankai Ichigo scales to 100% Yhwach 0.293c
Bankai Ginjo scales to FB Bankai Ichigo TYBW 0.293c
Orihime scales to SK Yhwach 2.93c
Post-Awakening Uryu scales to Squad Zero 0.293c
Squad Zero at full power scales to 100% Yhwach 0.293c
Second and Third Fusion Aizen scales above Squad Zero, 0.293c
Fourth Fusion/Final Fusion Aizen and Dangai Ichigo scales to TS. 0.088c
TYBW Aizen scales to SK Yhwach 2.93c
Second Fight Hikone scales to TYBW Aizen with all limiters released 2.93c
CFYOW Bankai Ginjo and CFYOW Zaraki scale to Hikone 2.93c
Yamamoto Shikai scales above 75% Yhwach 0.22c
Unohana scales above First Invasion Zaraki, who's above Post-SAFWY Zaraki 0.016c
Renji scales to Uryu 0.293c
Res Wonderwiess downscales to baseline from Yamamoto 0.066c
Gremmy scales to Post-Unohana Zaraki 0.293c
Jugram scales to Uryu. 0.293c
Base/First Fusion Aizen scales to Unohana 0.11c
Late Arrancar Arc/TYBW Kisuke and Yoruichi scale to Base/First Fusion Aizen 0.11c
And so does Adult Isshin, Aura and Post-Aus Askin scale to Kisuke scales to Askin 0.11c
CFYOW Shunsui scales to Tokinada 0.11c
Lille scales to TYBWA Shunsui 0.066c
Robert scales to Shunsui 0.066c
Ukitake scales to Shunsui 0.066c
Byakuya scales to Tokinada/Yoruichi 0.11c
Gerard (scales to Zaraki) 0.044c
Kid Toshiro (Gerard Fight) 0.11c
Bankai Zaraki 0.293c
Adult Toshiro 0.293c
nerfed S0 0.11c
Pernida (evolved to Zaraki) 0.293c
Yushiro 0.11c
Nemu 0.293c
Mayuri 0.066c

Agree with Scaling: @Nierre @Dalesean027 @M3X_2.0 @KingTempest
Disagree:
 
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Infinite9Luck said:
The calc is correct, and Bleach characters scale to their attack speed, what argument is even that?
Click to expand...
"Bleach characters scale to their attack speed" based on what? You're the one who is supposed to prove such claim. They also literally dont, otherwise why would anyone ever use ceros, or bala, or etc. What kind of argument is that?

And no, it isn't, gonna do another calc thread tomorrow ig.
 
Mommyleona said:
"Bleach characters scale to their attack speed" based on what? You're the one who is supposed to prove such claim. They also literally dont, otherwise why would anyone ever use ceros, or bala, or etc. What kind of argument is that?

And no, it isn't, gonna do another calc thread tomorrow ig.
Click to expand...

What are you even arguing? If 2 character are relative, for example, Starrk and Shunsui, the latter was dodging his Cero at point black.

Here Cien and Zaraki are stated to be equal, so it is only natural they would scale to each other.

Also, arguing that way stronger character will not scale to an attack of a mid-manga/pre TYBWA character, is actually ridiculous.

For example, here is Uraraka completely outspeeding Yammy's bala, actually a (x20 of cero in speed) simply because he's stronger and faster than Yammy.

Post me a proof where a stronger charachter could not dodge a cero of a wekaer character? Since i posted otherwise, there isn't a SINGLE instance in the manga that support this.

If 2 people are relative, their attacks are too.
 
Infinite9Luck said:
Post me a proof where a stronger charachter could not dodge a cero of a wekaer character? Since i posted otherwise, there isn't a SINGLE instance in the manga that support this
Click to expand...
SE Ulq’s Cero Oscuras clashing with Vasto Lorde Ichigo’s Cero despite Ichigo bodying his ass
 
Also it's worth to note that relative characters can't just tank each other's Ceros. Zaraki and Cien fought for hours. If he didn't scale to Cero's speed at all that would mean Zaraki would have been tanking Cien's ceros continuously throughout the fight for hours, which is just insanely unrealistic in Bleach when the characters are relative.
 
Saqphire said:
SE Ulq’s Cero Oscuras clashing with Vasto Lorde Ichigo’s Cero despite Ichigo bodying his ass
Click to expand...

That was H2 answering Ulquiorra's Cero, it proves the opposite of what you want as the stronger character loaded his Cero after and still countered.


Saqphire said:
Disagree with the scaling FRA. Attack speed isn’t a good basis to scale combat speed from unless someone actually dodges the attack speed properly
Click to expand...

Zaraki also dodged Yammy's massive AoE Cero by running to the side.

There's multiple examples of Cero being similar to characters own speed and IIRC none of the opposite.
 
The idea that characters who are canonically dozens of times stronger than Cien are supposedly slower than his Cero is just dumb, especially when literally every comparable character in the series is shown dodging each other’s Cero. It is no different from saying that Frieza’s lasers are faster than Cell.

Ichigo himself uses Cero in his full Hollow form, and even in his HoS form against Yhwach, so Ichigo only scales because he is literally a Hollow like Cien? Yet, by that logic, you also end up with Yhwach scaling since he reacted to the Cero, then Aizen, and then everyone else.
Simply put, if two characters are relative, they backscale to each other at the bare minimum. This is just common sense.

There is not a single instance in the series where a weaker character’s Cero was too fast for a stronger character. If anything, all the evidence shows the opposite, as I already posted you have stronger character fully blitzing weaker character's cero. Meaning whoever is stronger than Cien would scale.

Bleach clearly has a power system where speed is related to power, so people need to actually post scans to debunk my arguments. Otherwise, it is just pure headcanon over and over.
 
I don't like to be that guy, but the calc is not good. It assumes an average distance of about 15000km, but the scan says that it reached the outer space in a blink of an eye, outer space is just 100km above the earth's surface. It does hit a satellite but that's after the main statement. I don't agree with that distance.
 
Infinite9Luck said:
What? Ichigo's cero overpowered Ulquiorra's Cero. "One strong enough to quash an Oscura".
Click to expand...
Your question was ”Show an instance of a stronger character not being able to dodge a weaker character’s Cero”. Ichigo used a Cero to block a Cero instead of outspeeding the Cero and Ulquiorra
Infinite9Luck said:
Also I posted instances where clearly comparable characters scales to the speed of their Cero.
Click to expand...
The Urahara example is literally him aim dodging after having studied how the move works by the arm position after literally being tagged by it prior. Just cuz Urahara was above Yammy that doesn’t mean his speed is above the Bala as otherwise that wouldn’t be needed to happen anyway




Infinite9Luck said:
Also Full Hollow Ichigo uses Cero... And he is stated to be as strong as Cien, so why would Cien' Cero even be faster?
Click to expand...
That wasn’t the point of the question I answered


Hasch said:
That was H2 answering Ulquiorra's Cero, it proves the opposite of what you want as the stronger character loaded his Cero after and still countered.
Click to expand...
It wasn’t attack speed vs Ichigo’s combat speed, it was attack speed vs attack speed. Plus Ichigo firing later is anime only
Hasch said:
Zaraki also dodged Yammy's massive AoE Cero by running to the side.
Click to expand...
Thats kinda fine, but Yammy’s Cero isn’t in the chain
Hasch said:
There's multiple examples of Cero being similar to characters own speed and IIRC none of the opposite.
Click to expand...
Kyoraku barely dodging a Cero multiple times (no, you dont only account for the point blank distance, we saw Starrks Cero fly off into the distance when Kyoraku finished his dodge)
 
M3X_2.0 said:
I don't like to be that guy, but the calc is not good. It assumes an average distance of about 15000km, but the scan says that it reached the outer space in a blink of an eye, outer space is just 100km above the earth's surface. It does hit a satellite but that's after the main statement. I don't agree with that distance.
Click to expand...
It is not after the main statement; it is part of the same phrase: it reached outer space and hit a satellite. Outer space is not fixed at exactly 100 km, and even up to 200 km, the heterosphere still contains gases, so it is not even literally “outer space” in the strictest sense.

If he hit a satellite in the blink of an eye, then that is it. There is no reason to doubt it.
 
Saqphire said:
Your question was ”Show an instance of a stronger character not being able to dodge a weaker character’s Cero”. Ichigo used a Cero to block a Cero instead of outspeeding the Cero and Ulquiorra
Click to expand...
Ichigo using a Cero to block Ulq's one doesn't really debunk anything.
Saqphire said:
The Urahara example is literally him aim dodging after having studied how the move works by the arm position after literally being tagged by it prior. Just cuz Urahara was above Yammy that doesn’t mean his speed is above the Bala as otherwise that wouldn’t be needed to happen anyway
Click to expand...
He is not aim dodging anything, he outright blitzed it completely.
Saqphire said:
Kyoraku barely dodging a Cero multiple times (no, you dont only account for the point blank distance, we saw Starrks Cero fly off into the distance when Kyoraku finished his dodge)
Click to expand...
That doesn't debunk anything? He still did. This still support scaling to it anyway.
 
Infinite9Luck said:
It is not after the main statement; it is part of the same phrase: it reached outer space and hit a satellite. Outer space is not fixed at exactly 100 km, and even up to 200 km, the heterosphere still contains gases, so it is not even literally “outer space” in the strictest sense.

If he hit a satellite in the blink of an eye, then that is it. There is no reason to doubt it.
Click to expand...
Satellites can go as low as 100km. Actually the number of satellites at a height of over 15k km is so low that it doesn't make sense to use, at 15000km you're at the Van Allen belt that damages electronics due to radiation, so there aren't a lot there. Most of them are between 160km and 2000km.
 
Dalesean027 said:
I don't get why we're acting like people can't scale to others cero's.
Click to expand...
Nobody’s disagreeing with that. We’re disagreeing with the assumption that the attack speed of the same user is equal to their combat speed as that assumption is required for the chain scale to even work
 
Saqphire said:
Kyoraku barely dodging a Cero multiple times (no, you dont only account for the point blank distance, we saw Starrks Cero fly off into the distance when Kyoraku finished his dodge)
Click to expand...
Kyoraku barely dodging Cero even if barely shows that relative characters can dodge each other's Ceros. Zaraki and Cien were relative.
We know that relative characters can't just tank each other's Ceros. If Zaraki didn't dodge them in his 3 hour fight against Cien, he would die.
 
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M3X_2.0 said:
Satellites can go as low as 100km. Actually the number of satellites at a height of over 15k km is so low that it doesn't make sense to use, at 15000km you're at the Van Allen belt that damages electronics due to radiation, so there aren't a lot there. Most of them are between 160km and 2000km.
Click to expand...

The lowest satellites are at around 160 km, which already debunks the idea that it should be treated as only 100 km.

55% of orbits are LEO, 35% are GEO, and the remaining 10% are MEO.

The calc uses a weighted average, meaning it already takes into account that a much larger number of satellites are in the lower-altitude range. It is simple statistics, why we should take the lowest and not the highest? the fair way is made an weighted average

Can you actually point out where it is wrong?

It even uses 3 seconds for the “blink of an eye/instantly” statement, which is extremely generous. On top of that, it uses a weighted average across satellite orbit categories.
 
Last edited:
Infinite9Luck said:
The calc uses a weighted average
Click to expand...
You don't need to, that doesn't even make sense. Most satellites are between 160 and 2000, Starlink, ISS, observation satellites, majority of satellites are there. The rest are GPS satellites way beyond 30000km. Really, man, just use 2000km. It's actually higher than the accepted previous value.
 
Saqphire said:
It wasn’t attack speed vs Ichigo’s combat speed, it was attack speed vs attack speed. Plus Ichigo firing later is anime only
Click to expand...

But what you where trying to prove is a stronger character failing to dodge Cero from a weaker one, in this case H2 easily reacted and decided to use his own Cero despite going after Ulquiorra, which happens like that in the manga too.


Saqphire said:
Kyoraku barely dodging a Cero multiple times (no, you dont only account for the point blank distance, we saw Starrks Cero fly off into the distance when Kyoraku finished his dodge)
Click to expand...

Shunsui was troubled only by a continuous Cero barrage, also Ukitake was fast enough to jump between them and redirect by surprise and Starrk dodged his own surprise rebound Cero so everyone in that fight can handle a Cero speed lol


Saqphire said:
Thats kinda fine, but Yammy’s Cero isn’t in the chain
Click to expand...

The argument is that Cero don't scale to the users combat speed which they always blatantly do.
 
Last edited:
M3X_2.0 said:
You don't need to, that doesn't even make sense. Most satellites are between 160 and 2000, Starlink, ISS, observation satellites, majority of satellites are there. The rest are GPS satellites way beyond 30000km. Really, man, just use 2000km. It's actually higher than the accepted previous value.
Click to expand...
M3X_2.0 said:
2000km in 0.1s is 20 million m/s, 6.6% of light. I'm fine with that for the calc.
Click to expand...
This is the calc as you suggested: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Infinite9Luck/Cien's_Cero_goes_into_Outer_Space
 
I have a question, is 0.1s the site's "default" for "a blink of an eye"? If everything is okay with the time, then I agree with the scale.
 
Dalesean027 said:
I don't get why we're acting like people can't scale to others cero's.


Just revise the calc and correct it then it should be fine to use, corrections are one thing but no need to downplay
Click to expand...

M3X_2.0 said:
2000km in 0.1s is 20 million m/s, 6.6% of light. I'm fine with that for the calc
Click to expand...

Anyway, just for the sake of giving 3 options, I put 0.3ms and 1s.

 
Last edited:
If it's accepted as blink of an eye, shouldn't it be 0.1 to 0.4 milliseconds as ends? Instead of 1 second?

No one takes 1 second to blink.
 
Last edited:
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