Dragon Ball Lifting Strength Revision

[M3X_2.0]

This CRT is for revising Dragon Ball lifting strength based on the manga's direct lifting / weight / gravity-training progression, statements, and the like.

The main goal here is straightforward:
Dragon Ball's direct lifting strength progression is much lower than people would expect from how high the characters' general power gets, but that doesn't make the progression unclear, unusable, or incorrect.

If anything, the opposite is true. The manga gives a surprisingly direct chain of lifting / weight / gravity-training values from early Dragon Ball, through Z, and even into Super. The values are just not as high as someone would intuitively assume from the verse's AP. Yet even with that distinction already accepted here, Dragon Ball's direct LS showings are still weirdly grounded compared to its AP. But "weirdly low" doesn't equate to "inconsistent", especially when the manga keeps giving explicit numbers that are shockingly consistent in terms of upward escalation from start to finish.

The proposal is that Dragon Ball's lifting strength should follow the manga's direct lifting / weight / gravity-training chain, as that chain is repeated, numbered, and internally consistent over the entire course of the manga, from start to finish, making it, surprisingly, one of the few generally consistent threads running throughout.

Spoiler: Direct evidence / scan index: weigfht, gravity and anti-feat chain

This is the direct numbered LS / resistance chain the CRT is based on.

This section is only for the actual evidence and immediate result. The reason this evidence should take priority over less direct higher feats is explained in the next section.
Classic
1. Dragon Ball Chapter 31 - 20 kg shells:

• Goku and Krillin train with 20 kg shells.
• Result: 20 kg training load.
• Note: Not a max, but it establishes the first direct weight-training value and how such values while not high-effort, are enough to act as tangible limiters.

2. Dragon Ball Chapter 32 - 40 kg shells:

• The shell weight is doubled to 40 kg.
• Result: 40 kg training load.
• Note: Again, not a max, but it is the next explicit step in the training chain.

3. Dragon Ball Chapter 39 - Giran throw:

• Goku throws Giran, who weighs 211 kg.
• Caveat: Goku initially struggles, then uses a running start.
• Result: 211 kg dynamic throw with effort and momentum.
• Rating: Athletic Human by raw mass, but the throw is much better than a static lift due to the launch/momentum involved. It shouldn't be treated as casual lifting, since Goku initially fails to move Giran efficiently, which aligns with the before-and-after here. For the record, the throw if calced normally is only low Class 5, which honestly is still consistent with this given the caveats involved and the fact without those caveats he struggles with the default value.

4. Dragon Ball Chapter 177 - Weighted clothing:

• Goku wears roughly 115 kg of weights during normal movement. It's enough to actively hinder his performance, but not enough to stop him from fighting.
• His contemporaries put in minor effort to lift portions of the same weights, baffling even Tien.
• Result: 115 kg casual worn load.
• Note: This is lower than Giran by raw value, but more casual, sustained and constant at joints and ligament sections. Point is weight around this threshold is notable for them.

Saiyan Saga
5. Dragon Ball Z Chapter 16 / 17 - Kaio's 10G planet:

• Goku struggles to move on Kaio's planet.
• Saiyan homeworld gravity is stated to be the same.
• Goku's listed body weight: 62 kg.
• 62 kg x 10G = 620 kg.
• Result: 620 kg effective bodyweight burden.
• Rating: Class 1.
• Note: This is gravity/bodyweight burden, not a literal 620 kg deadlift, but it is a direct resistance showing but also a borderline cap for casual performance.

Namek Saga
6. Dragon Ball Z Chapter 57 - 20G training / 100G warning:

• 20G is already heavy training.
• 100G is said to likely be lethal to Goku at that point, a total of 6 tons (he's rounding down).
• 62 kg x 20G = 1,240 kg.
• Result: 1.24 tons effective bodyweight burden.
• Rating: Class 5 for 20G, with 100G being the implied Class 10 danger cap at this point.
  • Framed as escalation of the Saiyan Saga 10G display.

7. Dragon Ball Z Chapter 66 - 30G training:

• Goku moves up to 30G.
• 62 kg x 30G = 1,860 kg.
• Result: 1.86 tons effective bodyweight burden.
• Rating: Class 5.

8. Dragon Ball Z Chapter 67 - Z-Fighters at Kaio's:

• The Saiyan Saga Z-Fighters get to King Kai's planet and Yamcha notes under the 10G they're heavy enough to have difficulty just running.
• Piccolo: 116 kg x 10G = 1,160 kg.
• Result for Piccolo: 1.16 tons effective bodyweight burden.
• Rating: Class 5.
• Tien: 75 kg x 10G = 750 kg.
• Result for Tien: 0.75 tons effective bodyweight burden.
• Rating: Class 1.
• Yamcha: 68 kg x 10G = 680 kg.
• Result for Yamcha: 0.68 tons effective bodyweight burden.
• Rating: Class 1.
• Chaozu: 33 kg x 10G = 330 kg.
• Result for Chaozu: 0.33 tons effective bodyweight burden.
• Rating: Peak Human he'd upscale Goku pre-Kaio and DB weighting, so Class 1.
  • Piccolo: 3,500.
  • Tien: 1,830.
  • Yamcha: 1,480.
  • Chaozu: 610.
• This aligns with Goku's training as at 416 Goku had trouble at 620 kg while the fighters here are doing better at their respective weights relative to when Goku first went though still not unhindered, meanwhile at 8,000~, 620 kg was no longer an issue. This would push Goku post-Kai up to Class 5 as Piccolo acts as an in-between for that small but unknown gap between Goku's 20G training and 10G training. This also helps show the 10G material isn't a mere one-off Goku gag; the same kind of gravity burden is reused for multiple characters and still treated as physically relevant time and time again.

9. Dragon Ball Z Chapter 70 - 50G mastered:

• Goku masters 50G.
• 62 kg x 50G = 3,100 kg.
• Result: 3.1 tons effective bodyweight burden.
• Rating: At least Class 5 (given he was doing pretty good under it).

10. Dragon Ball Z Chapter 76 - 100G training:

• Goku trains in 100G.
• 62 kg x 100G = 6,200 kg.
• Result: 6.2 tons effective bodyweight burden.
• Rating: Class 10.
• Gap from Saiyan Saga 10G: exactly 10x.
• Note: the manga mentions this threshold is enough to instantly crush a human.

Android / Cell Saga
11. Dragon Ball Z Chapter 142 - Vegeta's 300G training:

• Vegeta trains in 300G and damages his body doing so.
• Vegeta's listed body weight: 56 kg (lower than Brief's 60 kg example he also used with Goku).
• 56 kg x 300G = 16,800 kg (as directly stated).
• Result: 16.8 tons effective bodyweight burden.
• Rating: Class 25.
• Caveat: This is with strain, not casual.
  • Framed as escalation of the Saiyan Saga and Namek Saga displays.

Buu Saga
12.1. Dragon Ball Z Chapter 234 - Base Goku's 8 ton training:

• Goku trains with 2 tons per limb.
• 2 tons x 4 limbs = 8 tons total.
• Result: 8 tons, manageable but still treated as legitimate training weight (80 tons if Heaven's 10G is accepted).
• Rating: At least Class 10 normally. If Heaven's 10G gravity is accepted for the scene, this would become Class 100.

12.2. Dragon Ball Z Chapter 234 - Base Goku below 40 tons / SSJ Goku handles 40 tons:

• Goku says 10 tons per limb would be too much in base.
• 10 tons x 4 limbs = 40 tons total.
• Super Saiyan Goku then handles the 40 tons easily.
• Result for Base Goku: At most 40 tons in base, but not combat-applicable, as he can't move properly with it.
• Result for Super Saiyan Goku: 40 tons casually/combat-applicable (400 if 10G).
• Rating for Super Saiyan Goku: Class 50 normally. If Heaven's 10G gravity is accepted for the scene, this would become Class K.
• Note: This is one of the clearest direct caps in the manga.

13. Dragon Ball Z Chapter 235 - Vegeta / Trunks 150G training:

• Super Saiyan Vegeta trains in 150G.
• Base Trunks cannot handle it, but Super Saiyan Trunks can.
• Vegeta: 56 kg x 150G = 8,400 kg.
• Result for Vegeta: 8.4 tons effective bodyweight burden.
• Rating: At least Class 10 (though he would scale higher but this point, Class 10 is still something high enough to press him).
• Trunks: 30 kg x 150G = 4,500 kg.
• Result for Trunks: 4.5 tons effective bodyweight burden, which is Class 5. Base Trunks can't handle it properly, while Super Saiyan Trunks can easily.

CONTINUED IN THE COMMENTS SECTION!!!!!

Spoiler: The Core Issue: Why The Direct Chain Should Take Priority

Higher LS-looking feats in Dragon Ball do exist. I'm not saying every higher showing is fake, unusable, or impossible to discuss.

The issue is that most of them aren't the kind of feats the manga itself treats as explicit lifting strength benchmarks.

They're usually things like ripping rock apart, rending steel, throwing someone hard, breaking an object, launching an enemy, or damaging the environment during combat.

In a casual sense, some of those can technically be calced as LS, but that doesn't inherently mean they should override the manga's direct lifting / weight / gravity-training progression.

Context matters, as always.

A feat being technically interpretable as LS is not the same as the author presenting it as a lifting strength showing. And with Toriyama specifically, this distinction appears to matter quite a bit, as when the manga actually wants to show lifting / resistance progression, it gives direct numbers instead.

• The direct evidence is already laid out in the scan index above. The important part is that these aren't vague implications or niche scaling chains; they are explicit weight, gravity, or failed-lifting scenes.

Even more importantly, these aren't just low statements that one could often ignore in favor of their actual showings. They are low statements attached to direct showings and anti-feats.

Which is where Dragon Ball differs from a lot of other cases.

In some series, you might have a character stated to cap at 100 tons while constantly doing mountain-level lifting feats such as with Marvel, and at that point the statement might just be treated as the author not understanding the scale or scope. But that's not really what's happening here.

With Dragon Ball, it's not just:

• "Goku says a few tons are heavy".

Instead we get something like:

• "Goku says a few tons are heavy, and then he literally struggles with those few tons on-panel".

That's completely different now, the statement is backed by actual showings.

The same applies across the chain:

• Goku doesn't just say 10 tons per limb / 40 tons total would be too much for his base form. He has effort with 2 tons per limb / 8 tons total, then needs Super Saiyan to handle the 40 tons easily.
• Vegeta doesn't just get a random statement about 300G. He actually trains under that burden and damages his body doing so.
• Goku doesn't just get told 100G is dangerous. He has to work his way up from 20G, to 30G, to 50G, and only then 100G.
• Vegeta doesn't just get told the Metal Man is 1,000 tons. He actually fails to lift / move him.

These scenes, among others, aren't just "anti-statements". They're direct anti-feats built into the scene, progression, and statements themselves. The entire package even, some of which even have minor narrative relevance.

This fact matters as they functionally act as caps for the characters at those points in time. Super Vegeta, in that scene, cannot lift 1,000 tons. Base Buu Saga Goku, in that scene, cannot move properly with 40 tons. Anyone below that point should not casually upscale past those values without very specific evidence as the manga's own direct progression is showing where the cap is for characters at their level.

This also lines up directly with the rest of the numbered chain.

Buu Saga Base Goku struggling with 8 tons and being below 40 tons isn't isolated. It fits close enough with Vegeta training at 300G, which is roughly 16.8 tons of bodyweight burden using his canon body weight and what Briefs claims. It also lines up from Namek Goku working up to 100G, which is roughly 6.2 tons of bodyweight burden using his listed body weight. And so on and so forth at every point, while the gaps may not be as large as one would expect, weaker characters struggle with less, stronger characters struggle with more, in a straightforward A>B>C type escalation.

Meaning:

• "One dumb low statement vs. a bunch of higher feats".

Isn't the case.

It's more like:

• "An entire direct numbered chain of statements + showings + anti-feats vs. a smaller group of less explicit higher feats".

Which is precisely why the direct chain should have priority.

Other verses getting away with higher feat interpretations doesn't really answer the issue here either. Not every verse works the same way.

Some verses can use broad physical feats more freely given the feats are consistent with other feats and statements, there are no repeated direct anti-feats contradicting them, or at least not frequently enough to give them priority, the setting established those kinds of feats as raw LS showings, or the author clearly treats them as intentional displays of lifting / grappling strength and there's enough context to gauge they know what they're talking about.

Dragon Ball more often than not lacks that and instead has Toriyama's direct LS progression via the weight / gravity chain. Which is the part he repeatedly emphasizes with numbers. The higher LS-looking feats are usually action panels that only become LS through calc interpretation. They may be legitimate in a vacuum, but they still need to be weighed against more explicit evidence.

That doesn't mean Dragon Ball has zero straightforward higher feats obviously. Early Goku moving a giant rock is an obvious example, and there are probably a few others. But those are the exception, not the main chain, and they quickly get contradicted by the following explicit progression that somehow manages to stay coherent with itself till the very end of the manga.

It sucks, but it is what it is.

So the question is no longer:

• "Can this one higher feat technically be calced as LS?"

The question now becomes:

• "Is this higher feat clear enough, direct enough, and consistent enough to override the manga's repeated and oddly consistent numbered LS progression and its direct anti-feats?"

For most of these feats, the answer is no.

They can maybe be discussed individually as odd higher showings, supporting feats, or exceptions (for example; Frieza and Cell's telekinesis), but they shouldn't become the main scaling chain when the manga already gives a very explicit one.

Spoiler: What This Revision Would Actually Change

The current manga profiles would stop scaling Dragon Ball's lifting strength from the current Class M / Class G chain where that scaling is based on broad physical superiority, environmental destruction, or feats that aren't direct lifting benchmarks. In other words, the change isn't just "lower the ratings"; it's changing what the main scaling chain is even allowed to be based on.

Instead, the profiles should use the manga's much more direct weight / gravity / lifting progression as the main LS foundation.

The current issue is that the profiles treat characters as reaching things like Class M or Class G far earlier than the direct manga chain would supports, all while the manga itself repeatedly gives much lower physical LS caps at specific points in time.

These caps should obviously matter.

• Proposed Main LS Chain (with characters scaling as required based on PL, showings, and contesting between characters).

Early Dragon Ball Goku:

• 20 kg to 40 kg shell training.
• 211 kg Giran throw with momentum and initial struggle.
• 115 kg weighted clothing later on.
• This should not be Class K or Class M from the boulder feats as a general scaling chain.
• Proposed: varies by key, but the direct early values are mostly Peak to Superhuman, with higher direct feats discussed as exceptions rather than the main chain (a lot of these aren't outright impossible for him to do so they aren't real caps, but they do compromise him to a degree so he isn't so far beyond these values to be completely beyond them).

Saiyan Saga Z-Fighters:

• 10G Kaio planet movement.
• 62 kg bodyweight x 10G = 620 kg (for Goku, for example).
  • Proposed: At least Class 1 via 10G bodyweight burden not being impossible, though still actively problematic.
• This acts as the physical LS benchmark for pre-Kaio Saiyan Saga Goku, with post-Kaio characters scaling higher based on their own 10G showings and PL, such as Piccolo reaching Class 5 through his own bodyweight burden and Goku after training scaling to Piccolo.
• Characters below post-Kaio Goku or Piccolo post-training should not be scaling to the later 1 ton to multi-ton gravity values.

Namek Saga Goku:

• Gravity ship training goes from 20G, to 30G, to 50G, to 100G.
• 62 kg bodyweight x 100G = 6,200 kg.
• Proposed: At least Class 10 via 100G bodyweight burden.
• This acts as the physical LS benchmark for post-gravity training Namek Goku.
• Characters below this Goku shouldn't scale to Class 10 or higher without their own direct evidence or nuance.

Android / Cell Saga Vegeta:

• 300G training.
• 56 kg bodyweight x 300G = 16,800 kg.
• Proposed: Class 25 via 300G bodyweight burden, but with strain.
• This acts as the physical LS benchmark for Android Saga Vegeta's gravity training.
• Since Vegeta damages his body doing this, it shouldn't be treated as a casual value.
• Characters below Android Saga Vegeta shouldn't scale above Class 25 without direct LS evidence such as Cell.

Buu Saga Base Goku:

• 2 tons per limb.
• 8 tons total.
• Goku has effort with this.
• He also states that 10 tons per limb, or 40 tons total, would be too much for him in base.
• Proposed: At least Class 10, at most Class 50, with Class 50 acting as his upper cap rather than a usable/combat-applicable value. This acts as a hard cap for Base Buu Saga Goku.
• Anyone below Base Buu Saga Goku should not scale to Class 50 physically without specific direct evidence.
• Base Goku can actively train with 8 tons, but 40 tons is his limit in base: he can have the weight put on him, but is incapable of actually moving properly with it and needs Super Saiyan to do so.
• Anyone below Base Buu Saga Goku should not scale to Class 50 physically without specific direct evidence.

Buu Saga Super Saiyan Goku:

• 10 tons per limb.
• 40 tons total.
• He can move with it easily as a Super Saiyan.
• Proposed: Class 50.
• This acts as the clean Super Saiyan Buu Saga LS benchmark.
• Characters comparable to or above Super Saiyan Buu Saga Goku can scale to Class 50 unless contradicted.
  • However, this shouldn't be used to backscale weaker base forms or earlier arcs past their own explicit caps.
    • Note: If the 10G Heaven statement is posted, these past two change accordingly.

Buu Saga 150G Training:

• Super Saiyan Vegeta trains under 150G.
• Using Vegeta's 56 kg bodyweight:
• 56 kg x 150G = 8,400 kg.
  • Proposed: At least Class 10 for this specific gravity-training benchmark.
• This fits the Buu Saga chain, since it is in the same range as Base Goku's 8 ton training, and the escalation from prior gravity-training.
• Base Trunks cannot handle it, but Super Saiyan Trunks can.
• 30 kg x 150G = 4,500 kg.
  • Proposed: At least Class 10 for this specific gravity-training benchmark.

Dragon Ball Super / Universe 6 Vegeta:

• Vegeta fails to lift / move the 1,000 ton Metal Man.
• 1,000 tons would be Class M.
• Since Vegeta fails, this should be treated as a hard anti-feat against Class M for that key.
• Proposed: Below Class M for Universe 6 Arc Vegeta, with 1,000 tons acting as the failed-lift cap we can discuss this one though.
• This means anyone physically below Universe 6 Arc Vegeta should also be below Class M unless they have their own direct Class M feat that doesn't contradict the suggested scaling.
• Class M should not be backscaled to earlier Z or early Super characters from vague physical superiority.

Later Dragon Ball Super:

• If later manga keys have direct Class M or higher feats, those can be discussed separately.
• But those should only apply from the point where the direct feat happens onward.
• They should not be backscaled below the Universe 6 Vegeta anti-feat.

Thresholds / Scaling Caps
These are the important caps I think the profiles should follow:

• Anyone below pre-Kaio Saiyan Saga Goku should not scale above to far past the 620 kg / Class 1 benchmark without caveats.
• Anyone below post-100G Namek Goku should not scale to the 6.2 ton / Class 10 benchmark.
• Anyone below Android Saga Vegeta should not scale to the 16.8 ton / Class 25 benchmark.
• Anyone below Base Buu Saga Goku should not scale to Class 50, as Base Buu Saga Goku himself cannot handle 40 tons properly.
• Anyone comparable to or above Super Saiyan Buu Saga Goku can scale to Class 50 from the 40 ton feat.
  • With gravity (if we presume that's consistent and was factored into the scene), that'd be 40 tons base (Class 50) and 400 tons Super Saiyan (Class K).
• Anyone below Universe 6 Arc Vegeta should never scale to Class M, as Universe 6 Vegeta himself is outright incapable of lifting a 1,000 ton opponent.
• Later direct Class M or higher feats should only apply to the later keys that actually scale to them.

Summary Of The Proposed Change
Current:

• Class M / Class G style scaling from broad physical superiority and less direct feats.

Proposed:

• Use the direct numbered manga chain instead:
  • Class 1 for Saiyan Saga Goku through 10G movement.
  • Class 10 for Namek Saga Goku through 100G training.
  • Class 25 for Android Saga Vegeta through 300G training, with strain.
  • At least Class 10, below Class 50 for Base Buu Saga Goku.
  • Class 50 for Super Saiyan Buu Saga Goku.
    • Possibly Class 50 and Class K instead assuming Heaven has 10G (which last I checked it does, but I can't be assed to find a scan so someone can just post it and we can bump the rating up).
  • Below Class M for Universe 6 Arc Vegeta due to the 1,000 ton Metal Man anti-feat.
    • Later direct feats can upgrade later keys only, not earlier ones.

Again, this doesn't mean every higher feat is fake. It just means the higher feats shouldn't be used as the main scaling chain when the manga gives repeated direct physical caps through weights, gravity training, and failed lifting showings or displays.

Dragon Ball's LS is weirdly low compared to its general power, but the direct progression is clear and should be used as the primary basis.

Note: this is only for the manga canon (though the general idea applies to all, the exact ratings may not be as straightforward or in some cases the roundabout feats may outweigh, those exact details aren't relevant here though and would need to be discussed in its own specific CRT). Anime Super has its own thing going on with far more showings, and Toei is a lil ******* freak of nature, they obviously knew how odd the discrepancy was and made an effort to inflate the LS (at least after a point).

Spoiler: Side Note: The Current Class G Basis Is Inflated Anyway

This is technically a separate issue from the main CRT, but it's still worth mentioning because it affects one of the current LS justifications. So even if the main proposal is judged independently, rejected, or anything in-between, this calc should still not be used either way for the current Class G scaling.

The current Class G Namek rock formation feat isn't bad because the feat does not exist or anything like that. The feat does exist. Goku is pushed through/crushes part of the rock formation, and in a vacuum that could be treated as a physical feat.

The problem is that the current calc method drastically inflates the size of the formation.

The calc uses a Namekian tree as the main size reference, treating the tree as around 26-27 meters tall, then scales the rock formation and rift from that, with the formation and rift being treated as tens to hundreds of meters across due to it.

But that scaling basis is simply unreliable.

Namekian trees aren't a consistent fixed size. They vary massively depending on the shot or tree, with some being only a few meters tall at best, and others being much larger, tens of meters, within the same panel right next to each other at times. Using a random Namekian tree as the foundation of the entire scale is dubious at best. The best case for that kind of method could maybe be used as a last-resort "possibly" end if there were no better references.

But there are better references.

The actual chapter shows characters like Goku, Vegeta, and Freeza directly next to the same rock formation. This is the very rock where Vegeta is killed in front of even. We see the characters right by it, in front of it, and even around the damaged section afterward.

From those shots, the formation is blatantly not hundreds-of-meters-wide. It's only a few meters above the characters in the relevant area. The rift/crushed section is also nowhere near 100+ meters wide. It's more like a few meters wide, maybe around 3-4 meters depending on the panel, and in some shots it's barely a couple Goku-widths across, as Goku stands right next to it.

So the current Class G result isn't just "high". It's specifically inflated by using a bad scaling reference when direct character references exist in the same scene.
(Though that isn't the calcer's fault, from older posts seen floating around, he was allegedly just sent specific panels and asked to calc it as was).

The current calc's main issue isn't even that it finds a higher LS result than the direct progression. The more blatant issue is that the Class G value itself isn't actually supported by the visuals and even outright contradicted. If the feat were recalced from the consistent character-adjacent shots instead of a random Namekian tree, it would get nowhere near the current Class G value.

It might still land above the proposed direct chain. Maybe Class K, maybe Class M depending on the exact method. But the current Class G result shouldn't be used regardless as the size assumption is visibly and provably wrong.

Best case scenario, it's a higher isolated feat that still might not even be usable given the suggestions here, but even then, it shouldn't be used to justify Class G lifting strength across Namek Saga characters when the calc itself relies on an unreliable tree scale and ignores the much better character-scale shots in the same sequence even if we were to ignore the main CRT entirely.

 

[Baken384]

dragon ball lifting strength crt from the squad before class g ls jojo thread

 

[M3X_2.0]

Spoiler: Continuation from the first point

Dragon Ball Super Manga

14. Dragon Ball Super Chapter 11 - 1,000 ton Metal Man:

• 
  Vegeta fails to lift / move the 1,000 ton Metal Man.
• 1,000 tons would be Class M.
• Result: Universe 6 Arc Vegeta is below Class M from this showing.
• Note: This functions as a direct cap against backscaling Class M to anyone below this Vegeta without their own direct evidence.

Do note; there is more in-betweens but they matter less for actual scaling, just note this throughline is a constant throughout such as:
15. Dragon Ball Chapter 199 / DBZ Chapter 5 - Raditz fight:

• Goku and Piccolo remove their weighted clothing before fighting Raditz.
• Piccolo goes from 322 to 408.
• Goku goes from 334 to 416.
• Direct weighted-clothing removal + measurable battle-power increase; their weighted clothing of a hundred kilos or so still act as tangible hinderances even if not overwhelming, and enough so removing them leads to an actual change in performance.

16. Dragon Ball Chapter 301 / DBZ Chapter 107 - Piccolo vs 2nd-form Freeza:

• Piccolo removes his weighted clothing after fusing with Nail.
• Direct weighted-clothing removal + measurable battle-power increase; his weighted clothing of a hundred kilos or so still act as tangible hinderances even if not overwhelming, and enough so removing them leads to an actual change in performance, though by this point a few hundred kilos is starting to become negligible to him given his PL failed to shoot up that much given he got overwhelmed by Third form Frieza despite being relatively equal to second. Yet it was still enough he figured it'd give him enough of a boost to overwhelm second form. So we're at least in that territory where it's relevant, but not so hindering it's drastic anymore.

17. Dragon Ball Chapter 346 / DBZ Chapter 152 - Piccolo vs Android 20:

• Piccolo removes his weighted clothing after getting a Senzu.
• Direct weighted-clothing removal; afterward he outspeeds and beats down Android 20 (though not implicitly due to the weights, fact is he still opted to ditch them before fighting a legitimate threat).
  • No idea how much it weighed at this point given unlike Namek, he would have had time to change its weight in the time since Namek. Just mentioning it as the whole weighted, gravity, and other stuff chain is a constant throughout the manga.

18. Dragon Ball Chapter 367 / DBZ Chapter 173 - Piccolo vs Android 17:

• Piccolo removes his weighted clothing before fighting Android 17.
• Direct weighted-clothing removal; nothing noted in context, just pointing out it's still a thing Piccolo does and he opted to do so before engaging a foe his max output was equal with (implying he skipped sandbagging).

19. Dragon Ball Chapter 449 / DBZ Chapter 255 - Planet Zoon / Pui Pui:

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• Babidi changes the stage to Pui Pui's home planet, Zoon.
• Zoon has 10x Earth gravity.
• For Vegeta, that would only be 56 kg x 10G = 560 kg of effective bodyweight, which is a Class 1 burden.
• The point here is that Pui Pui is used to 10G and expects an opponent at least around his level to be hindered by a sudden 10x bodyweight burden leaving them vulnerable, at least long enough for him to win, so at least fighters below his own level or around him, would be at least impaired by a sudden 10G shift for some time. Depending on the fighter's body weight, this would be anywhere from a Peak Human to Class 5 effective bodyweight burden.
• More importantly, Pui Pui implicitly thinks Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta at their held-back-yet-still-his-level-and-far-beyond-anything-earth-had-300-years-ago-levels would also be impaired by this kind of weight shift at least slightly. He doesn't treat 10G as some irrelevant number; instead it's portrayed as an active win condition that should compromise them once the stage changes to Zoon and something he's actively use to moving under given him an edge.
• We don't know Pui Pui's exact kili value, and he got extremely unlucky as Vegeta specifically had already surpassed 10G decades before this point. However, the scene still shows that 10G is treated as something in-universe that could meaningfully hinder superhuman fighters at some level, even if that level is below the Buu Saga main cast.
• Result: Pui Pui doesn't prove 10G matters to Vegeta, but he does prove 10G is still treated as a real hindrance for characters, even if those characters aren't the current ones.

Definitely more, this is just off the top of my head, and ignoring non-manga examples (like Yamcha nearly dying to 300G), but this should be enough to convey the surprisingly consistent intended progression.

 

[EtherealCrater]

This is really cohesive and well put together. I agree (Although my vote doesn't count!) with the proposed changes.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Before there is an overboard, I think it's important to note that it's extremely consistent for giant characters to exist and part of scaling chains; and that it be far outrageous to rate their LS ratings any lower than their own weight classes, let alone everyone stronger than them. More over, Ki is used to both telekinesis stuff and muscular lifting enhancements; so many TK feats are still treated as LS strengths in general; at least for lifting the giant chunks, the launching parts are technically striking strength if it's hurting high tiered characters.

Also, Gravity formula isn't really the best example of an antifeat against lifting strength. There are far too many across the block scientific facts about what happens when you multiply gravity. When you multiply gravity, it's not just you that gets X times heavier, but literally the air you breath also gets X times heavier. Which in turn causes a lot of other details; atmospheric pressure also gets much more intense as a result. And it reaches a point where even if the atmospheric Nitrogen/Oxygen gas will feel like it becomes liquid or even solid once the gravity makes it heavier. At bare minimum, simply being able to withstand let alone stand or walk in a high gravity environment actually requires being exponentially stronger/tougher per unit. One would at least neat to be able to lift the equivalent 100x their body weight; and not just lift that much, but actually carry it as if it's light as a feather in order to regularly move or jump at decently superhuman velocities on an environment that is 10 G's. Likewise, the very bottom of the Ocean's bed roughly translates to the type of pressure one would at roughly between 19 and 20 G's. And it's not just a lifting strength feat or durability/AP feat to survive in high gravity environments, but the air would be too condensed to properly breath in. And even the density of blood surpasses the density of lead in a 10 G setting let alone the 450 G levels that Vegeta later considers "Light as a feather." And long story short, it's mostly the lack of adaptation rather than a valid antifeat against LS.

And FYI, in order for a planet as tiny as King Kai's planet to be 10 G's despite its small diameter/volume, the density would be literally billions of times greater than Earth's; not to mention the actual weight of the atmosphere would be 10x greater effectively making the overall pressure 10's of billions of times greater.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

watchdogs

 

[Da3ggman]

Saiyan Saga Goku genuinely getting LS Diffed by irl humans (they can lift 2500 kgs):

Count me as agreeing on everything from DB to Z, neutral on Super for now.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Saiyan Saga Goku genuinely getting LS Diffed by irl humans (they can lift 2500 kgs):

Count me as agreeing on everything from DB to Z, neutral on Super for now.

 

[ProudLearner]

What about Goku lifting Giant Piccolo jr?

 

[Mgebrat282]

20 to 40 kg from shell training...son, Goku lifted giant boulders and cars, do you really think he cap on this level?

 

[SomebodyData]

Before there is an overboard, I think it's important to note that it's extremely consistent for giant characters to exist and part of scaling chains; and that it be far outrageous to rate their LS ratings any lower than their own weight classes, let alone everyone stronger than them. More over, Ki is used to both telekinesis stuff and muscular lifting enhancements; so many TK feats are still treated as LS strengths in general; at least for lifting the giant chunks, the launching parts are technically striking strength if it's hurting high tiered characters.

Also, Gravity formula isn't really the best example of an antifeat against lifting strength. There are far too many across the block scientific facts about what happens when you multiply gravity. When you multiply gravity, it's not just you that gets X times heavier, but literally the air you breath also gets X times heavier. Which in turn causes a lot of other details; atmospheric pressure also gets much more intense as a result. And it reaches a point where even if the atmospheric Nitrogen/Oxygen gas will feel like it becomes liquid or even solid once the gravity makes it heavier. At bare minimum, simply being able to withstand let alone stand or walk in a high gravity environment actually requires being exponentially stronger/tougher per unit. One would at least neat to be able to lift the equivalent 100x their body weight; and not just lift that much, but actually carry it as if it's light as a feather in order to regularly move or jump at decently superhuman velocities on an environment that is 10 G's. Likewise, the very bottom of the Ocean's bed roughly translates to the type of pressure one would at roughly between 19 and 20 G's. And it's not just a lifting strength feat or durability/AP feat to survive in high gravity environments, but the air would be too condensed to properly breath in. And even the density of blood surpasses the density of lead in a 10 G setting let alone the 450 G levels that Vegeta later considers "Light as a feather." And long story short, it's mostly the lack of adaptation rather than a valid antifeat against LS.

And FYI, in order for a planet as tiny as King Kai's planet to be 10 G's despite its small diameter/volume, the density would be literally billions of times greater than Earth's; not to mention the actual weight of the atmosphere would be 10x greater effectively making the overall pressure 10's of billions of times greater.

This feels like it's overcomplicating what the manga is actually doing a bit?

The gravity scenes aren't being treated like realistic planetary-atmosphere physics in the first place. The manga itself explains the mechanic as a direct weight multiplier.

1. 10G = your body effectively weighs 10x as much.
2. 100G = your body effectively weighs 100x as much.
3. 300G = your body effectively weighs 300x as much.

Dr. Briefs frames it directly through body weight, even stating exact tonnage values on panel. So "the air becomes liquid, blood becomes denser than lead, atmospheric pressure is tens of billions of times higher" part is, well, completely unsupported; it's not how the scene is written, and we can literally see, for a fact, that extrapolation isn't the case in context. It simply doesn't actually occur for this to be an argument.

If we applied that level of real-world planetary physics consistently, King Kai's planet and the gravity rooms would stop functioning as the manga depicts them at all. The characters are breathing normally, talking normally, and the scenes focus on their bodies being too heavy to move properly (this even extends to other absurd planets like Kaioshin, which Mr. Satan is fine upon), we also see them bleed at times because of this intense gravity (like Vegeta and Goku) and the blood behaves about what you'd expect, so what you're claiming would occur most certainly isn't the case.
The issue shown on-panel is verbatim resistance/load from gravity, consistently every time: not suffocation, liquid air, blood collapse, or pressure.

Also, gravity doesn't make matter's density multiply the way you're describing.
In 10G, a 62 kg person has 10x the weight force. Their mass density doesn't actually become 10x denser. His blood doesn't become denser than lead.

Same with air. Increased gravity can change pressure gradients in actual atmosphere, obviously that's true but it doesn't just make the air itself 10x more massive or instantly liquid. In a small artificial gravity room no less, the pressure difference across a few meters would be tiny compared to what you're implying.

And the "bottom of the ocean = 19-20G" comparison isn't exactly valid either. Ocean depth is pressure from a dense water column. The manga isn't depicting ocean-pressure physiology regardless. It's actively going out of its way to depict characters being weighed down by multiplied gravity because they now weigh too much.
That is the only reason given, shown, stated, or even implied to be the case.

To be clear though just for clarification, on an actual planet, higher gravity can affect atmospheric pressure depending on the planet's atmosphere, composition, temperature, height, and total atmosphere mass. But that's still not the same as "gravity directly multiplies air density by 10x" or "the air instantly becomes liquid". And it especially doesn't apply straightforward like that to a small artificial gravity chamber where the manga is explicitly treating the setting as a weight multiplier, not a full planetary atmosphere simulation, and nothing but.

The "exponentially stronger" claim is also just wrong. The basic load from gravity scales linearly.

1. 62 kg at 10G = 620 kg effective bodyweight burden.
2. 62 kg at 100G = 6,200 kg effective bodyweight burden.
3. 56 kg at 300G = 16,800 kg effective bodyweight burden.

Maybe you're confusing "exponentially" with how gravitational acceleration would increase and thus impact force would increase widely in-turn, which while understandable, is still something else entirely.
In actual fact, it's a simple mass x gravity escalation. Nothing in the story implies some secret exponential atmospheric multiplier is being used.

Mind you, Goku isn't merely get told "100G is dangerous". He has to work up through 20G, 30G, 50G, then 100G, and does so because he'd weigh to much otherwise and that weight is what's a problem.
Vegeta trains in it and even damages his body with the weight involved being noted as insane.
Goku ain't merely saying "40 tons is too much in base". He's shown using 8 tons with effort, then needing SSJ1 to handle 40 tons easily (also gravity isn't even part of that scene's main context here yet it still lines up).
Vegeta also doesn't merely hear that the Mageta is 1,000 tons. He actually fails to lift him too.

These aren't unsupported statements. They're direct showings built around the stated values.

As for giant characters, that's own thing. If a giant has a known body weight, then sure, the giant should at least scale to moving its own body except we actually don't do that iirc? Not that it matters, a character having high LS because they're physically large and said LS isn't apart of general Ki scaling due to it being a facet of biology, doesn't really matter for the thread's main point or 99% of the cast. There's good reason why "without specific reason" was noted a few times throughout the OP. Giant dudes may in fact be an exception.

But just being stronger than a giant in combat doesn't mean you can outlift the giant. Actually, this was already checked, in the DB manga (barring one exception), nobody actually grapples with a giant, in fact they usually get mauled or crushed by them. And obviously hurting a giant is striking strength/AP. Launching a giant with a hit with striking strength or momentum is obviously fine but that has nothing to do with practical LS.

Same with telekinesis. If someone uses telekinesis to lift a chunk of rock, that can scale to their telekinetic lifting strength. The OP literally points out Cell's TK would be an exception, Frieza's as well.
It doesn't innately scale to their standard lifting strength unless the character is physically doing it with their body, and in some cases we know it not to be the case anyway (Goku utterly fails to lift the rock the Frieza tossed with TK, and Goku was utterly immobilized by the Light Cage too, despite Frieza lowering himself to Goku's level at those points in time).
Ki can enhance the body, yeah, but that don't mean every TK feat is also lifting for everyone who scales in AP.

The CRT isn't arguing that Dragon Ball has zero higher LS-looking feats, the OP literally mentions some multiple times. But what it is saying, is that the higher feats are usually less direct (and thus subject to unintended results, or simply just being more inconsistent), or less relevant. All while the manga's actual weight/gravity scenes are exceptionally explicit, repeatedly act as caps, and is a running constant from start to finish throughout the entire manga at every step of it.

The gravity scenes are especially direct because the manga itself gives the formula: body weight x gravity multiplier itself, thrice.

It may not be very high, but the progression still exists. But ignoring that, they say time and time again it's the weight that is a problem, whether it's 1 ton, 2 tons, 5 tons, 10 tons, 50 tons, or anything else, and they need to train to get strong enough to support that weight, and only after they do so can they move. And some of these don't have anything to do with gravity anyway, yet part consistently part of the same progression. And there's even stuff such as simply flipping SSJ1 on for Trunks let him bypass "adapting" to anything for example, simply because he could lift more now.

What about Goku lifting Giant Piccolo jr?

It's still inconsistent with everything else. There's obviously feats higher than what the OP suggests, the question is if those feats are:

1. Consistent.
2. Line up with the showings/anti-statements/anti-feats.
3. With the intended progression the manga clearly had in mind, would taking those at face value be something Toriyama actively intended to be as high as they are or was it unintentional?
4. If intended at the time, does the following manga undermine it or retroactively showcase it as but an outlier?
5. Other stuff OP says.

 

[Omegabronic]

More over, Ki is used to both telekinesis stuff and muscular lifting enhancements; so many TK feats are still treated as LS strengths in general; at least for lifting the giant chunks, the launching parts are technically striking strength if it's hurting high tiered characters.

Ki Manipulation (Dragon Ball)

Ki (気き?, lit. "Air, Breath"), also known as Chi/Qi, Yoki (妖よう気き, Yōki?, lit. "Bewitching energy") or simply Energy (エネルギー, Enerugī?) is the secret energy that lies hidden inside the bodies of humans. By utilizing materialized energy converted from energy inside one's body, one can produce...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Telekinesis is not listed in any section outside of this one:

• Homing Attack & Limited Telekinesis (At this level, ki users can make homing ki blasts that pursues ki and ones that can be freely controlled)

In which makes it clear that it is limited to their own Ki blasts, so not applicable to this conversation as it is mechanic not accepted on the wiki as of now


More over, every time I can think of Telekinesis being used it is usually via Psychic powers like Guldo and Freeza and never splicitly Ki... do we have any statements showing that such Telekinetic powers come from Ki? If not we can still list those as LS "With Telekinesis" under the Characters Profiles similarly to other cases where Telekinesis is far higher than the Character's physicals

 

[Damage3245]

I agree with the OP's points, with the consistent chain of feats, and the proposed new ratings.

 

[R81handman]

What about Goku lifting Giant Piccolo jr?

DBS in the Hero Arc explained it that it a bluff. so there isn't that much of an increase in LS from scaling Goku resisting Piccolo trying to crush him.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

So, how do we deal with random enemies lifting a building that weighs over 1,000 tons, while Vegeta in his base form lifts that same building and throws it aside, and even kicks it so hard that the entire structure is sent flying far away?


Seriously? Are we really going to use a comedic scene of Vegeta supposedly not lifting 1,000 tons, when Kale, who was inferior to Vegeta, casually lifted 1,000 tons and held it with a single hand?

 

[Damage3245]

So, how do we deal with random enemies lifting a building that weighs over 1,000 tons, while Vegeta in his base form lifts that same building and throws it aside, and even kicks it so hard that the entire structure is sent flying far away?

Isn't that several arcs after the tournament where Vegeta struggled with 1,000 tons?

 

[Emerald]

Seriously? Are we really going to use a comedic scene of Vegeta supposedly not lifting 1,000 tons, when Kale, who was inferior to Vegeta, casually lifted 1,000 tons and held it with a single hand?

casually is a strong word, she struggled a bit to do that

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Isn't that several arcs after the tournament where Vegeta struggled with 1,000 tons?

The Galactic Patrol Prisoner Saga takes place shortly after the events of the Dragon Ball Super Broly movie

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Considering that Chapter 1 Goku could lift a car, that’s already a red flag. Pilaf arc Goku could also crush a rock and later move a giant one as sen on his profile.

During Roshi’s training, there’s much narrative significance given to Goku moving a Class M rock. It may also be work calcing the LS required by Nam and Goku to jump as high as they do.

Tao throwing that pillar yields high LS results too.

Also, do remember that 23rd Budokai Goku literally picked up and threw giant Piccolo.

There are a lot of LS feats that go against the weight statement of the manga.

 

[Saqphire]

Agree with the CRT

Seriously? Are we really going to use a comedic scene of Vegeta supposedly not lifting 1,000 tons, when Kale, who was inferior to Vegeta, casually lifted 1,000 tons and held it with a single hand?

LSSJ Kale is not inferior to SSJ1 Vegeta in the U6 tournament, they make it explicitly clear that her legendary super saiyan is an amp that’s far beyond anything the Saiyans have seen, and the same Kale was bodying SSGSS Goku

This is not an inconsistency at all + she didn’t casually lift Magetta

 

[Nullflowerblush]

DBS in the Hero Arc explained it that it a bluff. so there isn't that much of an increase in LS from scaling Goku resisting Piccolo trying to crush him.

They're very obviously referring to Goku manhandling the entire body weight of a Piccolo who is tens of times larger than before, not Goku resisting Piccolo's downward force, lol.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

What about it? It's like one of three legit feats.

Pilaf Saga

• Goku lifts and throws a pretty big tree stump (Around Class 5)
• Goku lifts Bulma's car overhead and throws it (Class 1)
• Goku lifts and crushes a boulder (Class 5)
• Bear Thief, that Goku one-shots, carries and swings a huge sword (Like Class 10?)
• Great Ape Goku can lift and fling a large section of Pilaf’s castle (Around Class 100 I'd imagine)

Tournament Saga

• Roshi and Goku can push a boulder (Class 5)
• After more training, Goku can now push an even bigger boulder (Class K)
• Great Ape Goku lifts and flings a section of the tournament stadium (Around Class 50 I'd imagine)

Red Ribbon Saga

• General Blue lifted a Phone Booth and crushed it in between his arms (Around Class M?)
• Tao threw a pillar at 10,000 KPH (Class M)
• Tao overpowered Bora with two fingers, the same Bora who could throw both Yajirobe and Goku far above the clouds (Def above Class 1)

DKP Saga onwards

• Yajirobe tossed a boulder at Goku, with enough force to smash it to pieces (Like Class 5?)
• 23rd Goku knocks Giant Piccolo over before swinging him through the air by his finger (Class K)

And this is without taking Goku and Krillin being able to jump dozens of meters into the sky, Nam (holding back) being able to leap over four stories into the air and above the clouds when he isn't and Chi Chi doing the same. Simply put, trying to cap OG DB at Class 1 contradicts ALL of it's LS feats, besides maybe the Giran one, and even that one is questionable since it’s a throwing feat.

I'm too lazy to dig through DBZ rn, and I’ll admit LS feats aren’t nearly as common there as they were in OG DB, we still have stuff like Cell having CLASS G TK!
And yes, I know, it's a TK thing. At the same time, I really doubt Cell was so incompetent that he never realized he could’ve beaten Gohan by abusing TK lol

But just being stronger than a giant in combat doesn't mean you can outlift the giant. Actually, this was already checked, in the DB manga (barring one exception), nobody actually grapples with a giant, in fact they usually get mauled or crushed by them.

I think that’s that's mainly the case cause the Giant Character usually have the power advantage in those fights.
Hell, I don’t think we’ve ever even seen a Great Ape at a power disadvantage.

But whenever they don't have that advantage (See Giant Piccolo or Agnilasa), they do tend to get tossed around pretty easily.
Plus if Great Ape was such a ludicrous LS boost, you'd think Wrathful Broly would be an unmovable object to Goku and Vegeta, but he really isn't, at least not initially.

 

[Chariot190]

Considering that Chapter 1 Goku could lift a car, that’s already a red flag. Pilaf arc Goku could also crush a rock and later move a giant one as sen on his profile.

Tiny car that he struggled greatly with?
There's a difference between say, a few hundred kilos being relevant, and not mattering. The point of the more early feats like the shells and whatnot, is to showcase how weight at such a level is still a compromising thing for them.

Picture if you would, someone who can max effort lift like 1000kg. 600kg is still going to be extremely compromising for them and effect their performance. That's basically what's going on here.
At the early levels they're framed in a realistic but still superhuman style. Minute weight differences will effect them in a way it would a normal person, just at a greater threshold, like, The Mountain may be capable of benching 500kg or moving a few tons, but if you made him fight wearing 20kg on his ligaments that would be
debilitating.

During Roshi’s training, there’s much narrative significance given to Goku moving a Class M rock. It may also be work calcing the LS required by Nam and Goku to jump as high as they do.

Tao throwing that pillar yields high LS results too.

Also, do remember that 23rd Budokai Goku literally picked up and threw giant Piccolo.

There are a lot of LS feats that go against the weight statement of the manga.

You like literally just named all of them. There's about two more and that's about it. But that's also kind of the point, do any of those actually give stated values? Are we sure that Toriyama went "yeah Tao is strong he can lift a like 200kg pillar", or "yeah he's strong, if you take into account all these differing factors and calculate the launch he's 1,000,000x greater then the stuff I go out of my way to clarify".

You gotta always take stuff in mind with greater context. A semi-decent example I suppose would be Batman yeah, he has dozens of Class K and M feats, but they aren't really consistent or intended by the writers to be "as high" as they are, if that makes sense? Ripping chains, bending thick steel, throwing people hard enough to crater stuff. Sure they're all legit feats, but then you still need to cross-examine them with his more direct feats like "I can max bench 2,000kg" and stuff and see if they should be used still.
There's also more weight statements not mentioned in the OP if the point you're trying to make is quantity in fact a lot of OP isn't just statements, but they also double as direct showings so it isn't quite that simple.
a few of the ones in OP are a lil sus tho but overall you can see there was def something Toriyama was trying to do it looks like.

 

[Tllmbrg]

You gotta always take stuff in mind with greater context. A semi-decent example I suppose would be Batman yeah, he has dozens of Class K and M feats, but they aren't really consistent or intended by the writers to be "as high" as they are, if that makes sense? Ripping chains, bending thick steel, throwing people hard enough to crater stuff. Sure they're all legit feats, but then you still need to cross-examine them with his more direct feats like "I can max bench 2,000kg" and stuff and see if they should be used still.
There's also more weight statements not mentioned in the OP if the point you're trying to make is quantity in fact a lot of OP isn't just statements, but they also double as direct showings so it isn't quite that simple.
a few of the ones in OP are a lil sus tho but overall you can see there was def something Toriyama was trying to do it looks like.

Is Batman really the example you want to draw on, DC/Marvel have a special status on site and he probably would be Class K if handled like we do other verses.
I think you can also excuse some of the weight cap statements as unironically more about the form/overtime thing, since the main thing is just moving around with them for a long duration.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

You like literally just named all of them. There's about two more and that's about it. But that's also kind of the point, do any of those actually give stated values? Are we sure that Toriyama went "yeah Tao is strong he can lift a like 200kg pillar", or "yeah he's strong, if you take into account all these differing factors and calculate the launch he's 1,000,000x greater then the stuff I go out of my way to clarify".

Then why use feats at all then? A grand total of zero of the feats across the entire series were calculated by toriyama to entire they represented how strong he wanted his characters to be.

icture if you would, someone who can max effort lift like 1000kg. 600kg is still going to be extremely compromising for them and effect their perform

So we agree? Training weights don’t indicate a cap to lifting strength?

But then again, the human Z Fighters struggled to lift Goku’s weights in the 23rd Budokai, so that complicated things.

 

[KingTempest]

So, how do we deal with random enemies lifting a building that weighs over 1,000 tons, while Vegeta in his base form lifts that same building and throws it aside, and even kicks it so hard that the entire structure is sent flying far away?


Seriously? Are we really going to use a comedic scene of Vegeta supposedly not lifting 1,000 tons, when Kale, who was inferior to Vegeta, casually lifted 1,000 tons and held it with a single hand?

Visibly seeing Kale need to use large amounts of effort and even screaming and calling it "casually"

Oh brother

Note me for agree for the thread

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

But that's also kind of the point, do any of those actually give stated values? Are we sure that Toriyama went "yeah Tao is strong he can lift a like 200kg pillar", or "yeah he's strong, if you take into account all these differing factors and calculate the launch he's 1,000,000x greater then the stuff I go out of my way to clarify".

Should we then, considering Toriyama decided that normal humans have a PL of 5, while 100% intending for PLs to be linear (That's why Goku's PL of 10 goes to 100 with Great Ape's flat x10 boost, or why the Kaioken always comes out 1-to-1 with the PL increase), throw away all those Moon Busts and make them all like, what, x30 normal humans? Cause Toriyama didn't think about the implications of making normal humans that strong? No, obviously not.
And like my oll pal @StrymULTRA outlined in that DR thread.

Plus, the "intent" inherently doesn't mean jack here. To cite a popular example, Butch Hartman, when watching a Death Battle episode involving Danny Phantom, one of the series he wrote, was surprised at Danny vaporizing a golf area being almost 560 Tons of TNT in power. It was clear that it was not the intent of a feat vaporizing a chunk of soil being comparable to the power to blow up multiple city blocks, but it is if we actually take in physics and the actual implications of the feat.

That, and the Batman comparison doesn’t really work here. Like you said, Batman’s big Class K feats are wayyy above what he can normally pull off, whereas in this case, quite literally every single LS feat in DB is above what the statements claim.

 

[Chariot190]

Pilaf Saga

• Goku lifts and throws a pretty big tree stump (Around Class 5)
• Goku lifts Bulma's car overhead and throws it (Class 1)
• Goku lifts and crushes a boulder (Class 5)
• Bear Thief, that Goku one-shots, carries and swings a huge sword (Like Class 10?)
• Great Ape Goku can lift and fling a large section of Pilaf’s castle (Around Class 100 I'd imagine)

Just exacerbates that the big lads are likely just physically stronger based on their increased size. Less to do with ki and more biological functions. After all, just being large or one's physical body doesn't have to much to do with PLs and combat power (not to say completely exempt, but it ain't the main thing, often the inverse even).

The rest actively show low-end LS. Bulma's car is smaller than even a normal one and Goku max diffed that. Which actually, just goes to show how incoherent some of those feats even are.

Toriyama clearly didn't get the scope that a boulder that big would weigh more than the car Goku literally just struggled with a chapter ago.

And if he's messing up what should be such basic values that early, and doing so consistently, he's evidently not to reliable in knowing that the feats he's writing for LS should be as high as low as they are. At that point you'd honestly be better off just going with what he actually outlines and intended to be the case at that point.

Tournament Saga

• Roshi and Goku can push a boulder (Class 5)
• After more training, Goku can now push an even bigger boulder (Class K)
• Great Ape Goku lifts and flings a section of the tournament stadium (Around Class 50 I'd imagine)

Boulder is def legit. But an outlier can still be an outlier.

Red Ribbon Saga

• General Blue lifted a Phone Booth and crushed it in between his arms (Around Class M?)
• Tao threw a pillar at 10,000 KPH (Class M)
• Tao overpowered Bora with two fingers, the same Bora who could throw both Yajirobe and Goku far above the clouds (Def above Class 1)

As above.

DKP Saga onwards

• Yajirobe tossed a boulder at Goku, with enough force to smash it to pieces (Like Class 5?)
• 23rd Goku knocks Giant Piccolo over before swinging him through the air by his finger (Class K)

And this is without taking Goku and Krillin being able to jump dozens of meters into the sky, Nam (holding back) being able to leap over four stories into the air and above the clouds when he isn't and Chi Chi doing the same. Simply put, trying to cap OG DB at Class 1 contradicts ALL of it's LS feats, besides maybe the Giran one, and even that one is questionable since it’s a throwing feat.

Blame Toriyama for saying like ten times a few tons would be crippling and running with it from start to finish and being the only actually stated values in the manga that get reinforced by active showings. We could blame the "well this happens too" game all day.

Like there's other anti-feats too that aren't tied to the progression outlined. If we want to list every non-explicit failure as well we'd be here all day.

I'm too lazy to dig through DBZ rn, and I’ll admit LS feats aren’t nearly as common there as they were in OG DB, we still have stuff like Cell having CLASS G TK!
And yes, I know, it's a TK thing. At the same time, I really doubt Cell was so incompetent that he never realized he could’ve beaten Gohan by abusing TK lol

Frieza didn't either when he blatantly could have based on the fact his TK literally, on panel, eclipses Goku twice. And at that point they have Ki, nothing would really stop Gohan from doing an explosive wave and sliming Cell or homing attacks all while Cell needs to split his effort to do something that wouldn't really impede Gohan from actually mauling him.

I think that’s that's mainly the case cause the Giant Character usually have the power advantage in those fights.
Hell, I don’t think we’ve ever even seen a Great Ape at a power disadvantage.

It is what is. You can think whatever you want but fact is it still happens like every time so using them as anti-evidence don't really work if we're talking consistency.

But whenever they don't have that advantage (See Giant Piccolo or Agnilasa), they do tend to get tossed around pretty easily.

Piccolo is a fraud. His general ki stays the same, so AP, durability, and speed, and the like doesn't actually get to much stronger. He says this himself even. So if people are already on par, if he ain't trying to grapple, he's still getting kicked in the teeth.

Plus if Great Ape was such a ludicrous LS boost, you'd think Wrathful Broly would be an unmovable object to Goku and Vegeta, but he really isn't, at least not initially.

No? LS isn't stopping you from being hit with the force of a universe and being blown out?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

DBS in the Hero Arc explained it that it a bluff. so there isn't that much of an increase in LS from scaling Goku resisting Piccolo trying to crush him.

It quite specifically says it does NOT increase his strength, but it does increase his mass via expanding his size. Hence in the 23rd Budokai, he realistically cannot force himself to grow beyond his standard LS capability. So the fact that he can even expand himself without increasing his strength inherently means even his base size fully lift his own body weight. Others also brought up how even chapter 1 Goku could pick up a car with one hand and toss it with relative ease, so it's a red flag for him to be treated any weaker than that.

And actually, there is evidence characters use the Ki to enhance their LS; it's lifting and flying at the same time is usually what's considered the harder part. Doing one or the other is often treated as being much easier. Even the infamous 40 ton example from Buu saga is shown that SSJ transformation made the same weight considered "Piece of cake." Even as early as Dragon Ball saga, the Great Ape form was regularly capable ripping giant rocks from the grounds hills and tossing them. And the "Overwhelming them with their weight" isn't just due to passive weight, but do the crushing attacks and body slamming. Not to mention the characters getting overwhelmed are consistently 10 or more times weaker than the giant characters in terms of AP; so that's the real reason they struggle and not due to absence of lifting capabilities. Goku getting stomped by Great Ape Vegeta is due to the fact that even base Vegeta was stronger than Kaioken x2 Goku at the time. And while Great Ape Gohan was more than a match for base Vegeta, he was still sort of holding his own. And Great Ape form if we remain consistent with how they are regularly treated is more on par with Kaioken x10 strength wise.

It's also technically something we treat as a rule of note. Rule of note means we do NOT make calculations or rate characters due to it, but at least acknowledge some degree of physical consistency. Technically blocking a punch or strong AP energy blast with a single hand and not even budging would be a LS that doubles as a casual SS/durability feat. As even the raw energy output translates to the equivalent of a high GPE. And dividing the diameter of an energy ball (Like Frieza's Supernova) would net a super high force yield. We avoid that for calc stacking concerns and we agree to NOT upgrade SSJ Trunks to stellar class LS via that, but it can still be worth noting if character A is able to repel something without budging while character B could not is more than enough reason to upscale Character A's LS from Character B. Likewise, blocking punches from giant characters and blocking strikes from those using "building sized swords" would still be lifting strength factoring how much the giant hands or giant swords would weigh.

Also, gravity doesn't make matter's density multiply the way you're describing.
In 10G, a 62 kg person has 10x the weight force. Their mass density doesn't actually become 10x denser. His blood doesn't become denser than lead. The force per volume is higher because the weight force is higher, which isn't even remotely the same thing as the material density changing.

Clarifying a misconception. I didn't say it gravity multiplies the atomic mass, but the atomic force/weight. Isaac Newton's classic F = MA formula that applies everywhere. As in even the air we breath gets 10 times heavier. I don't really trust what AI size, but it is possible for high gravity to force atoms closer together, and thus shrink the volume of air while increasing density as a result. It wouldn't instantly happen when using gravity chamber to turn on to 10 or more G's, but King Kai's planet being naturally super dense would be a different story.

Also P.S. this is completely ignored in the OP. But the OP left out that when Goku was on King Kai's planet, it wasn't just his body being 10x heavier. He also was wearing his weighted clothes, so it would be his (body weight + weighted clothes) all being multiplied by 10. And when he took off the weighted clothes, he said he felt much lighter. Also at least in Piccolo's case, weighted clothes actually get progressively heavier throughout the series, but we don't know to what extent. But moving on to next level training gear as he is stronger as lighter levels would be too easy or not maintain strength. It's hard to tell if Goku is using heavier weighted clothes or if he wore them anymore; as it's characters like Kami, King Kai, and Piccolo who make those for him and he cannot produce his own. But still, weighted clothes and gravity combination isn't even hard caps for other things considered.

 

[Chariot190]

Should we then, considering Toriyama decided that normal humans have a PL of 5, while 100% intending for PLs to be linear (That's why Goku's PL of 10 goes to 100 with Great Ape's flat x10 boost, or why the Kaioken always comes out 1-to-1 with the PL increase), throw away all those Moon Busts and make them all like, what, x30 normal humans? Cause Toriyama didn't think about the implications of making normal humans that strong? No, obviously not.
And like my oll pal @StrymULTRA outlined in that DR thread.

Did we NOT just make a thread having multipliers and PLs be made suspect?
What sort of absurdity argument is this? I'll be taking that for the next thread I guess, that's a very good point to make to showcase how a lot of the boosts aren't really coherent. Now how does that effect dozens of linear A>B>C progression?

That, and the Batman comparison doesn’t really work here. Like you said, Batman’s big Class K feats are wayyy above what he can normally pull off, whereas in this case, quite literally every single LS feat in DB is above what the statements claim.

You are factually incorrect. If every single LS feat in DBZ was above the thread then the thread wouldn't exists because the LS feats shown here would also be above themselves TOO.
Like it or not they all double as LS feats. What you meant to say is that there exists feats that are above. Not all, not even a larger quantity, just a decent handful. And all while ignoring about 30 showings where they aren't that high.

Honestly speaking, Batman has more higher LS feats relative to his intended level than DB as a whole has, I can think of nearly a hundred that would be Class 100, K, M, and even a incoherent G one, but obviously that isn't what was intended right? Per your own admission even.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Goku struggles to move on Kaio's planet.

Assuming that Goku jumped up to 2 meters (need better angsizing), LS of that jump would be 2 tonnes, compared to 620 kg he endures on the planet. Seems overall consistent (I assume that someone with 100kg deadlift would find additional 31 kg on the body pretty debilitating)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Assuming that Goku jumped up to 2 meters (need better angsizing), LS of that jump would be 2 tonnes, compared to 620 kg he endures on the planet. Seems overall consistent (I assume that someone with 100kg deadlift would find additional 31 kg on the body pretty debilitating)

Better yet, once again, he was also still wearing weighted clothes on top of the 10 G's, so he'd weigh more like 1770 kg and jumping those 2+ meters would be more like Class 10 minimum.

 

[Chariot190]

Then why use feats at all then? A grand total of zero of the feats across the entire series were calculated by toriyama to entire they represented how strong he wanted his characters to be.

Uh, sometimes yeah? Like if calcs are blatantly unreliable, and we don't need to rely on them because there's an excessive string of explicitly showings and statements that remains internally consistent through bar a few caveats. We'd rely on that instead? It doesn't help a lot of the AP stuff is backed by statements too so some of that actually is outright intended and doesn't work as a defense.

So we agree? Training weights don’t indicate a cap to lifting strength?

They aren't a cap, but they are a indication of the general level.

600kg or even 1 ton not being the explicit cap, doesn't mean they're actually hundreds or thousands of times higher either. It's still clearly enough to be notable.

But then again, the human Z Fighters struggled to lift Goku’s weights in the 23rd Budokai, so that complicated things.

That is factually true yes.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

It doesn't help a lot of the AP stuff is backed by statements too

I do not think Toriyama intended the destruction of Planet Vegeta or Namek to rival the GBE of certain stars.

It’s pretty much the same logic as saying Cell Games Goku didn’t want to charge up a Kamehehae near the Earth at risk of destroying it, therefore no DB character up to that point can be planet level. If you asked Toriyama what Recoome’s Erasure Gun could destroy, I doubt he’d say a planet.

In my book, it should be all or nothing.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Just exacerbates that the big lads are likely just physically stronger based on their increased size. Less to do with ki and more biological functions. After all, just being large or one's physical body doesn't have to much to do with PLs and combat power (not to say completely exempt, but it ain't the main thing, often the inverse even).

Well problem with that is that some of those giant characters are = in power to their Giant counterparts (Giant Piccolo) or while while stronger, not astronomically so (Great Apes). Piccolo Jr. with his regular LS can move relatively fine while weighing 116 tons, the Great Apes can do the same AND have good LS feats.

Why do I think their LS doesn't skyrocket when they go Great Ape? Again let's look back to Wrathful Broly. We know that the Wrathful form is just the Great Ape form, just without the body deformation. That's to say Wrathful Broly would have the LS and power that lets the Great Apes move their bodies and perform their impressive LS feats. So by your logic, Wrathful Broly would have LS that puts Goku and Vegeta to shame, right?

No? LS isn't stopping you from being hit with the force of a universe and being blown out?

And yet, God Goku (His equal in power if his performance against SSJG Vegeta is anything to go by), is able to stop his fist in place before diverting it away and could even flip him over. Even when Broly evolved and started Hulk-ing on God Goku, Blue Goku (Literaly just a SSJ increase) could grapple with this Broly and even "so long gay Bowser" him. The idea that Great Ape is this outlier form that for some reason increases LS wayyy higher in comparison to other forms is simply unfounded.

The rest actively show low-end LS. Bulma's car is smaller than even a normal one and Goku max diffed that. Which actually, just goes to show how incoherent some of those feats even are.

And if he's messing up what should be such basic values that early, and doing so consistently, he's evidently not to reliable in knowing that the feats he's writing for LS should be as high as low as they are. At that point you'd honestly be better off just going with what he actually outlines and intended to be the case at that point.

I mean, do we expect perfect LS scaling? Cause I don't think it's even possible to find a fictional verse that has that. Obviously Toriyama isn't calcing the feats Goku and co perform, but they still performed those feats on-screen (Well on-page Ig in this context).

Plus even this "max diff lift" contradicts the 20kg they have trouble with later.
Like I can lift around 40kg I think, do we think I'm going to be encumbered by having 800g on my back lol

Blame Toriyama for saying like ten times a few tons would be crippling and running with it from start to finish and being the only actually stated values in the manga that get reinforced by active showings. We could blame the "well this happens too" game all day.

I know some lads here are familiar with the Flash show, dunno if you are though, well I'll assume so.

Should we also list the Flash show dudes at Mach 7 despite them circling the Earth a few times in a few seconds? As you know, stated values are wayyy more important than feats. Hell I think it even has a linear progression of him going from like Mach 1 to Mach 7 or higher I think, perfect example.

Frieza didn't either when he blatantly could have based on the fact his TK literally, on panel, eclipses Goku twice.

Don't you think the natural conclusion then is that it simply wouldn't have worked on SSJ Goku? Like he tried it on Base Goku and Frieza was toying with the entire fight, I don't think it eclipsing that Goku means it would've done anything against SSJ Goku.

And at that point they have Ki, nothing would really stop Gohan from doing an explosive wave and sliming Cell or homing attacks all while Cell needs to split his effort to do something that wouldn't really impede Gohan from actually mauling him.

Gohan won't be able to shoot Ki blasts if Cell General Blues him, and Cell could pretty easily dodge an explosive wave if he stays far enough from Gohan too.
Like Cell was desperate enough that he used the shit form that's Grade 3 against Gohan, I really doubt he just had a perfect counter to him but just forgor lol

Like it or not they all double as LS feats. What you meant to say is that there exists feats that are above. Not all, not even a larger quantity, just a decent handful. And all while ignoring about 30 showings where they aren't that high.

Honestly speaking, Batman has more higher LS feats relative to his intended level than DB as a whole has, I can think of nearly a hundred that would be Class 100, K, M, and even a incoherent G one, but obviously that isn't what was intended right? Per your own admission even.

They're about even if you take every single time Piccolo removes his weighted clothing or whatever, but in terms of quantity (If we take jumps and throws), the LS feats far eclipse the number of the weighted clothing/gravity training statements. Like again my list was just DB, there's obviously more feats in DBZ/DBS.

Also if Batman really has that many LS feats, then he's just that strong? Like you can't really call the majority the outlier.

 

[Mgebrat282]

Pilaf Saga

• Goku lifts and throws a pretty big tree stump (Around Class 5)
• Goku lifts Bulma's car overhead and throws it (Class 1)
• Goku lifts and crushes a boulder (Class 5)
• Bear Thief, that Goku one-shots, carries and swings a huge sword (Like Class 10?)
• Great Ape Goku can lift and fling a large section of Pilaf’s castle (Around Class 100 I'd imagine)

Tournament Saga

• Roshi and Goku can push a boulder (Class 5)
• After more training, Goku can now push an even bigger boulder (Class K)
• Great Ape Goku lifts and flings a section of the tournament stadium (Around Class 50 I'd imagine)

Red Ribbon Saga

• General Blue lifted a Phone Booth and crushed it in between his arms (Around Class M?)
• Tao threw a pillar at 10,000 KPH (Class M)
• Tao overpowered Bora with two fingers, the same Bora who could throw both Yajirobe and Goku far above the clouds (Def above Class 1)

DKP Saga onwards

• Yajirobe tossed a boulder at Goku, with enough force to smash it to pieces (Like Class 5?)
• 23rd Goku knocks Giant Piccolo over before swinging him through the air by his finger (Class K)

And this is without taking Goku and Krillin being able to jump dozens of meters into the sky, Nam (holding back) being able to leap over four stories into the air and above the clouds when he isn't and Chi Chi doing the same. Simply put, trying to cap OG DB at Class 1 contradicts ALL of it's LS feats, besides maybe the Giran one, and even that one is questionable since it’s a throwing feat.

I'm too lazy to dig through DBZ rn, and I’ll admit LS feats aren’t nearly as common there as they were in OG DB, we still have stuff like Cell having CLASS G TK!
And yes, I know, it's a TK thing. At the same time, I really doubt Cell was so incompetent that he never realized he could’ve beaten Gohan by abusing TK lol

I think that’s that's mainly the case cause the Giant Character usually have the power advantage in those fights.
Hell, I don’t think we’ve ever even seen a Great Ape at a power disadvantage.

But whenever they don't have that advantage (See Giant Piccolo or Agnilasa), they do tend to get tossed around pretty easily.
Plus if Great Ape was such a ludicrous LS boost, you'd think Wrathful Broly would be an unmovable object to Goku and Vegeta, but he really isn't, at least not initially.

Did anyone calc the moment, where Goku threw Piccolo Daimao and destroyed the building by it. I think it would give him a good LS, maybe even class G

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Did anyone calc the moment, where Goku threw Piccolo Daimao and destroyed the building by it. I think it would give him a good LS, maybe even class G

I don’t think that would count.

 

[Emerald]

Did anyone calc the moment, where Goku threw Piccolo Daimao and destroyed the building by it. I think it would give him a good LS, maybe even class G

Its around Class M

 

[Mgebrat282]

I don’t think that would count.

Throwing feats can be count as LF

 

[Mgebrat282]

Its around Class M

Do you have calculation?