TenSura LN Revision — Essence of Wank [ONE MORE STAFF NEEDED; 2:0:0]

[Dark_Soul20189]

KK, I did check the canon thread to see and I didn't see the manga, but my main concern is with potential information lost as the medium is translated (manga's have less "room" to explain shit than novels, especially when it comes to exposition dumps), but aight

I am just gonna say this... The manga is much closer to the LN raws, than the Light novel itself... yenpress sucks (want to say something more, but I would like to stay on the site...)

 

[Mizuki67]

So what is the purpose of making them concept type 3 even though skills which are concept type 1 protects their souls and the heart core being in made up of concept type 1 information particles?
Its appalling that your method of defense is telling me to read a whole blog, you are the challenger here so the burden of proof falls on you, don't tell me to "read" a whole ass blog after I quoted a post from it as my method of defense @Astral_Trinity439

Properly defend your take or don't, it's easy as it can get.
This whole thread is cheaply explained despite saying bunch of words.

Information particles: Information type 2 that is type 1 level surrounds the heart core.
Skills protecting the soul are type 1 level
The soul is fundamental to the mind of the person which is embodied by the skill
And so on and so forth, so what exactly even is this thread on about?

You can say alot without saying anything

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I'm gonna scream

What do yall think essence means? It means true nature, it-in-of-itself, the core of what something is, we don't treat it as being conceptual, because of reasons, but to be something's essence is to be that. True doesn't work as an affix here because it being True is already in the basic definition of essence, the only case in which it being "true" actually changes matters is if a previously believed essence wasn't actually the core of something, and thus this essence is the actual essence of something
That doesn't make it not also equally capable of being used in less than conceptual/universal manners mind you, someone can describe the essence of all swordsmanship as cutting, blocking, and parrying, which is to what I'm speaking about in reference to the skills, that just because essence is being used there does not mean it's being used to reference the exact same idea of soul-as-essence rather than referring to the core idea of what a skill is (though rereading the scan in question it does bring it up in reference to skills as a manifestation of human desire, which know from elsewhere are manifestations of the energy of the soul in response to desire, so maybe it counts but honestly I wouldn't describe the soul which energy formed it as being it's soul)

Etooo... Essence is classified as conceptual/concept:

Jujutsu Kaisen Hax & Addition Thread

Edit: I read the page before that, and nevermind Now the question is can they actually read the opponent's next attacks before they execute the movement

vsbattles.com

Concept type 1 are (low-)Outerversal level

In new tiering system outerversal level basically are meta level, that trully superior from all level of reality that cannot getting reached no matter how far you stacted the reality it self Soo what about Concept type 1?? These concept are fully independent from all reality and are the source...

vsbattles.com

---

On a different note:
Why are the soul and factors Conceptual in Nature ?
Well the answer to that is very simple,

• Everything contains an essence which defines what they are.
• Soul is that essence of someone or something even for beings that are concepts themselves.
• It's necessary for their existence (fundamental aspect) and without the soul they well cease to exist.
• It contains their factor which shapes them.

Spoiler: From the OP

Even so…, Chloe pondered. She had thought that a person’s essence is shown in the state of the soul. Even so, what about Rimuru? Even though his soul had clearly disappeared, he was calmly continuing to act.
V23C4
---
Whether suppression was possible or impossible. That alone was important. Shion left aside the swirling emotions as they were, and accepted them as they were. Just as Rimuru had said, Shion put it into practice. No matter how unreasonable and difficult an idealistic theory it might be, honestly and simply with stubborn straightforwardness. As a result, Shion had become able to intuit the true essence of things through the soul. Even in the battle against Dagruel, Shion’s intuition had manifested itself.
V21C1
---
Guy, being well practiced at it, broke through Velzard’s multilayered mental barriers and dived toward the abyss of the soul, which was the essence of the Dragon Species.
V23C1

Now one might say that the word "essence" varies contextually well let's take a look at the examples in the OP.

ギィは手慣れたもので、幾重にもわたるヴェルザードの精神防壁を突破して、〝竜種〟の本質である〝魂〟

Well accustomed to this, Guy broke through the multilayered mental barriers of Velzard and [dived] toward the abyss of the “soul,” the essence of a “Dragon Species.”
- Rough TL by GPT

• 本質 is used as "essence"
• 魂 is used as soul.

Now let's go to Exhibit B

スキルの本質が人の願望から生まれたものであったからこそ

Once again,

• 本質 is used as "essence"

So no within the story essence doesn't mean different things that varies contextually from hyperbolical usage like the "essence of swordsmanship" to literal essence/nature/quality as in the very foundation of how a being is defined.

I hope that settles that issue.
----
Now your second question as far as I understand is that

Is that enough to say that the soul is Conceptual ?

Well no, for that we have to look at factors.
Factors are literally what defines someone i.e their very species.

Factors always have the same kanji (因子). And no it's not factor as in contribution.
To begin with I got the scans by searching for 因子 in all the Japanese RAWs

Spoiler: Examples

Some of this is MTL. It is for examples only, since asking a staff to translate a bunch of scans just because they had a term mentioned in it is... But I'll ask @RaikiKurohane99 to confirm these tls:
その身体は〝竜の因子〟に適合しており、今や〝竜種〟と同等だ。それどころか、その圧倒的なまでの[魔素][エネルギー]量は、ヴェルザードすらも軽く凌駕している。

That body was compatible with the “Dragon Factor,” and had now become equivalent to a “Dragon Species.” In fact, the sheer amount of [Magicules] [Energy] it possessed easily surpassed even Velzard.

---
それはつまり、ルシアを構成していた因子の欠片を宿していた者がいたら、何の容赦もなく消滅させて〝情報子〟を回収する気だった、という事だろうね。

In other words, if there had been anyone harboring fragments of the factors that composed Lucia, he likely intended to erase them without the slightest mercy and recover the “Information Particles.”

---
それにまだ、愛するルシアの〝因子〟を集め終えていなかった。

Besides, he still had not yet finished gathering the “factors” of his beloved Lucia.

---
俺が今使っている『虚無崩壊』というのも、果ての世界で溜め込まれた[絶対的な崩壊因子][マイナスエネルギー]が正体なのである。

What I am currently using, 『Void Collapse』, is in fact the [absolute collapse factor] [negative energy] accumulated at the world’s end.

---
シエルは、リムルに集っていた数多の要素に加えて、ヴェルダナーヴァが収集していたルシアの因子、それら全てを統合して〝ルシア〟の再現に成功したのだ。

In addition to the countless elements that had gathered around Rimuru, Ciel integrated the Lucia factors that Veldanava had collected, successfully recreating “Lucia.”

---
[井沢静江][シズエ・イザワ]、[坂口日向][ヒナタ・サカグチ]、クロエ・オベール、他にも、幾人かの人々に欠片──ルシアの因子が散らばっていた。それらは全て、リムルを通じて収集されており──シエルの手によって統合されていたのだ。

Shizue Izawa, Hinata Sakaguchi, Chloe Aubert, and several others possessed fragments—Lucia’s factors had been scattered among them. All of those were collected through Rimuru and integrated by Ciel’s hand.
---
アレにヴェルダナーヴァやルシアの因子が凝縮されていたと考えれば、そうした進化が行われても不思議ではないと思う。

If one considers that Veldanava’s and Lucia’s factors had been condensed within that thing, then such an evolution would not be strange at all.

Okay, so I'll deal/question both of these at once. Is it that all monsters/non-spiritual lifeforms innately have some degree of spiritual lifeform ancestry to them? So, ogres and whatnot have a spiritual ancestry that traces all the way back up to the first Fire Spirits, and thus their transformation into spiritual lifeforms is more of a return to that ancestral (conceptual) state, with such a principle applying to all living beings?

Practically yes. All lifeforms that have souls, ultimately conclude back to the Primordial God (Luminous Twilight Valentine)
Here (V17C4) and:

大いなる力の化身として土着の神々が誕生していく中、神祖──ルミナス・ ・ トワイライト バレンタインが誕生する。神祖の登場によって、世界は革新を迎えた。世界に満ちた生命から、知的生命体が誕生したのだ。
V23C5


While indigenous gods were being born as incarnations of great power, the Progenitor God Luminous Valentine was born. Through the appearance of the Progenitor God, the world welcomed innovation. From the life that filled the world, intelligent lifeforms were born.
Translation from Raiki

If so, then sure, but then I question why elemental is a sub-category than a general one because all of these mfs are elemental anyways.

More tangential question of then what attribute/spirit humans are derived from, since they can also become spiritual lifeforms, but like, shrug

That's the thing; they were also created by the Primordial God, but we don't know the exact ancestry. High Humans -> some de-evolution -> modern humans, but we don't know what was before high humans. Maybe they were directly created as high humans to begin with, maybe there was something before them that high humans were born from, it's all blank.

also smth smth all factors are just derivatives of attributes

You can say even a rock is ultimately derived from attributes in a chain lol

I mean, sure, yeah, though in that scan, isn't the specific issue that the magicules lack any factor with which to generate a monster?
My issue is more that factor isn't mentioned there, though the wavelength/ego is, so idk honestly

Uh... 7th line of the first para in the scan I linked.

Though for that second point, is it not just wholly possible the reason they die is that they no longer have a material form to anchor themselves, and they're weak enough that all their energy (effectively) instantly dissipates into the world, and they die ala this scan

Hmm, could be, honestly. I never thought of it like that

I'm not disagreeing with it being a quality; I'm pointing out how it is also to some degree quantitative, in that dragons can be weaker or stronger depending upon how strongly the dragon factor manifests itself.

Not really no,
Each species has their own factor, lesser dragons even dragon lords and such have completely different factor than the True Dragons race i.e there's no overlap in factors (quality) between True Dragons and Lesser Dragons (Sky Dragons and such).
To elaborate,
Soul is the genus, the essence present in every single being whereas factor is the specific differentia i.e what makes a species that species with no overlap between different species. There's no "degree of quantitative variance" between different species.

Now what makes them different types of concepts (particularly type-1 and type-3)
Well that's in the OP.
Considering I just showed that a human soul albeit of similar nature to a true dragon has a different factor and considering the factor is what ultimately decides the type of concept I think that's enough to not warrant usage of Sagan's Standards.
A quick explanation/TLDR ig

• Souls --» Conceptual in Nature (Everyone and everything has a soul)
• Factors --» Conceptual, different species has different factors, some species has type-1 concepts as their factors and some don't.

I think that's enough of an explanation, hope that cleared some of your doubts that's all from me.

My argument is more in terms of like
Hydrogen and Iron are both atoms, yeah? They may have different properties, different amounts of electrons, protons, and neutrons, but at the end of the day they're both atoms and they both have the same fundamental structure and follow the same fundamental rules, to argue otherwise you'd have to show that a given element showcases extremely weird behaviour rather than work under the assumption that just because they have different weights and charges that they are fundamentally different particles
The same thing applies here; they may have different external properties and whatnot, but they share the same composition, participate in the same rules, work the exact same bar external specificities (aka skills), and as such, to assume that they are as fundamentally different as being wholly different types of concept is just kinda wack without a showing or statement that proves as such

I think the answer I wrote above to your question earlier should be sufficient for ds.

KK, I did check the canon thread to see and I didn't see the manga, but my main concern is with potential information lost as the medium is translated (manga's have less "room" to explain shit than novels, especially when it comes to exposition dumps), but aight

Funnily enough, Manga explains more on things even the LN didn't show (like actually showing what Diablo did in the Underworld, his journey, rather than just a statement that he went and came back)

So what is the purpose of making them concept type 3 even though skills which are concept type 1 protects their souls and the heart core being in made up of concept type 1 information particles?
Its appalling that your method of defense is telling me to read a whole blog, you are the challenger here so the burden of proof falls on you, don't tell me to "read" a whole ass blog after I quoted a post from it as my method of defense @Astral_Trinity439

???
My dude, do you understand why we make blogs and physiology and terminology pages and not just profiles? Not referring to just tensura but wiki as a whole. It's to deal with questions like yours that have already been brought up and answered a thousand times -_-

If you cannot even do that, don't participate in the thread. Simple. It's not my burden if you're unwilling to read something meant to be read. That is expected of you if you're gonna go around participating in threads of a verse as a supporter.

Properly defend your take or don't, it's easy as it can get.
This whole thread is cheaply explained despite saying bunch of words.

Information particles: Information type 2 that is type 1 level surrounds the heart core.
Skills protecting the soul are type 1 level
The soul is fundamental to the mind of the person which is embodied by the skill
And so on and so forth, so what exactly even is this thread on about?

You can say alot without saying anything

Make a better thread yourself then, instead of going around not contributing anything and cluttering other people's thread, dude. I gave a TL;DR of the thread in the very OP and you're behaving exactly like the people for whom terminology pages are made.

 

[Cipher72]

So what is the purpose of making them concept type 3 even though skills which are concept type 1 protects their souls and the heart core being in made up of concept type 1 information particles?

Indexing my guy, one of the previous reasoning behind them being CM-1 was wrong as such we are indexing them properly. VSBW profiles aren't meant to just contain "anything we deem to be important for versus battles" rather they are meant to index "everything as they are portrayed". All souls aren't CM-1 and that's a fact yes most of the relevant characters have CM-1 souls and yes those that don't have Info-2 and CM-1 skills protecting their souls. That's true but that doesn't make the souls themselves CM-1, we are meant to index things as they are regardless of how useful they may be in Versus Battles.

 

[Robo432343]

I agree with Leonment

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I agree with Leonment

Bro made Leon out of Deon

Indexing my guy, one of the previous reasoning behind them being CM-1 was wrong as such we are indexing them properly. VSBW profiles aren't meant to just contain "anything we deem to be important for versus battles" rather they are meant to index "everything as they are portrayed". All souls aren't CM-1 and that's a fact yes most of the relevant characters have CM-1 souls and yes those that don't have Info-2 and CM-1 skills protecting their souls. That's true but that doesn't make the souls themselves CM-1, we are meant to index things as they are regardless of how useful they may be in Versus Battles.

This
Also the whole point of this thread is to establish that 1) Heart core is not conceptual self, it's purely information, and 2) Soul is conceptual

 

[Mizuki67]

Indexing my guy, one of the previous reasoning behind them being CM-1 was wrong as such we are indexing them properly. VSBW profiles aren't meant to just contain "anything we deem to be important for versus battles" rather they are meant to index "everything as they are portrayed". All souls aren't CM-1 and that's a fact yes most of the relevant characters have CM-1 souls and yes those that don't have Info-2 and CM-1 skills protecting their souls. That's true but that doesn't make the souls themselves CM-1, we are meant to index things as they are regardless of how useful they may be in Versus Battles.

Okay I understand through this explanation.
Thank you, it wasn't hard to just explain something to someone is it astral? Being hostile to someone who disagrees wont help your case plus no where in the blog did it even mention what you are bringing up.
Question: does this mean souls naturally aren't anything at all and we are making them cm3?

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Okay I understand through this explanation.
Thank you, it wasn't hard to just explain something to someone is it astral? Being hostile to someone who disagrees wont help your case plus no where in the blog did it even mention what you are bringing up.
Question: does this mean souls naturally aren't anything at all and we are making them cm3?

I'm not being hostile to you, and my behavior is not because you disagree either. Do you see me beefing with Leonment above? I don't like beefing with anyone to begin with, unless they start it first. Even then I always hope they calm down after a few replies, but you have been doing this across both the general discussion previously and these threads too, calling other people's threads bad and all without looking at your own faults.

I just don't like when people say stuff like this without reading things they should also be reading themselves

do you not read the power system fam?

Its appalling that your method of defense is telling me to read a whole blog, you are the challenger here so the burden of proof falls on you, don't tell me to "read" a whole ass blog after I quoted a post from it as my method of defense @Astral_Trinity439

This whole thread is cheaply explained despite saying bunch of words.

But, I don't see the the point in prolonging this kind of behavior in our conversations, so let's both calm down, alr?
I'll go ahead and apologize first for any harsh words I said.

 

[Hecky2222]

I agree with Leonment

Agree cuz there is Leon in it

 

[Luminous_Twighlight_Valentine_Simp]

Best Representation of Being Late Fr.
Agree

 

[Mizuki67]

I'm not being hostile to you, and my behavior is not because you disagree either. Do you see me beefing with Leonment above? I don't like beefing with anyone to begin with, unless they start it first. Even then I always hope they calm down after a few replies, but you have been doing this across both the general discussion previously and these threads too, calling other people's threads bad and all without looking at your own faults.

I just don't like when people say stuff like this without reading things they should also be reading themselves




But, I don't see the the point in prolonging this kind of behavior in our conversations, so let's both calm down, alr?
I'll go ahead and apologize first for any harsh words I said.

The crt was too long, I am a larper

 

[Hecky2222]

The crt was too long, I am a larper

Bro pls cook more, we need you to get back Tensura again to Star level goat

 

[Mizuki67]

Bro pls cook more, we need you to get back Tensura again to Star level goat

It wasn't my fault
Also I want to sit back for some time up until its time to introduce outerversal milim

 

[Deonment]

Uh... 7th line of the first para in the scan I linked.

Should have clarified, meant for the veldora scan in the OP, this one

Not really no,
Each species has their own factor, lesser dragons even dragon lords and such have completely different factor than the True Dragons race i.e there's no overlap in factors (quality) between True Dragons and Lesser Dragons (Sky Dragons and such).

Was moreso bringing up this

When thinking about it together with the story I heard earlier from Eren, it seems that the Elemental Dragon died and became a Chaos Dragon. At that time, dragon factors were probably scattered/spread around. Even now, it seems that Lesser Dragons are born from pools of magicules, and if the factors of the Elemental Dragon appear strongly, they become Upper Dragons (Arch Dragons).

Specifically, how it states that the factor appears in dragon species in degrees, that the strength of the dragon depends upon how strongly the original elemental dragon factor appears, which implies that the factors themselves exist in multiplicity, and that said multiplicity, in the sense of a character having more or less of the factors, and that impacting strength, is what's making me say it's quantitative, and more informational than conceptual (I haven't read the giant part of your post at the start so I may change my mind, and if I do, ignore this)

Funnily enough, Manga explains more on things even the LN didn't show (like actually showing what Diablo did in the Underworld, his journey, rather than just a statement that he went and came back)

Got it

Etooo... Essence is classified as conceptual/concept:

Jujutsu Kaisen Hax & Addition Thread

Edit: I read the page before that, and nevermind Now the question is can they actually read the opponent's next attacks before they execute the movement

vsbattles.com

Concept type 1 are (low-)Outerversal level

In new tiering system outerversal level basically are meta level, that trully superior from all level of reality that cannot getting reached no matter how far you stacted the reality it self Soo what about Concept type 1?? These concept are fully independent from all reality and are the source...

vsbattles.com

I know, but we don't always use essence by itself as grounds for something being conceptual on the simple basis of fiction going to fiction, otherwise all souls would be type 3 concepts as a baseline (which the fiction then goes on to contradict through having the soul being just like, a half important thing or just a little ball of light somewhere in your body, so to repeat myself, fiction fictioning)

So no within the story essence doesn't mean different things that varies contextually from hyperbolical usage like the "essence of swordsmanship" to literal essence/nature/quality as in the very foundation of how a being is defined.

I hope that settles that issue.

I mean, I'm fine with essence as in the soul being the essence of a being, my issue was with Fermo bringing up characters stating true essence as though that really anything separate if the characters themselves just stated essence alone, I prolly shouldn't have quoted your message as part of that response, but eh, it is what it is
My second issue is with the idea that the usage of essence in reference to skills wasn't the exact same essence in reference to the nature of the soul, the OP uses that quote to posit the idea that skills also have souls (maybe that was just a misreading on my end), which doesn't work given what the quote itself is saying essence in reference to (in that skills are derived from the desires of humans), and the fact that skills somehow have souls when they themselves are part of/encoded into the soul

Well no, for that we have to look at factors.
Factors are literally what defines someone i.e their very species.

The soul being conceptual was never in contention for me lol, the entire spiritual lineage thing that was talked about earlier kinda just hard confirms it, they're all aspects of the great holy spirits, manifest in physicality rather than pure spirituality, but fragments of such nonetheless, I personally just read the factor as being closer to information that defines ones existence, with less or more of it impacting how one's body exists than it being a pure conceptual matter (which it kinda isn't, what with it being multiplicative and all, the idea for it being conceptual would be, beyond what I mentioned before, that there is only, for example, 1 dragon factor which manifests within those of the dragon race (ala the great spirits being the source of all fire/wind/water/etc), and so on, otherwise it's closer to being type 3 or a type 1 personal indepdent than a transcendental universal)

Practically yes. All lifeforms that have souls, ultimately conclude back to the Primordial God (Luminous Twilight Valentine)
Here (V17C4) and:

Less lineage-wise and more so the primordial god was responsible for the crossbreeding that brought them into existence, but yeah that tracks

That's the thing; they were also created by the Primordial God, but we don't know the exact ancestry. High Humans -> some de-evolution -> modern humans, but we don't know what was before high humans. Maybe they were directly created as high humans to begin with, maybe there was something before them that high humans were born from, it's all blank.

Well, one doesn't need to know the exact ancestry tbh, just that they are also descendant from the spirits and whatnot

Smth smth it's revealed that they are actually descendants of the great spirit of time

Considering I just showed that a human soul albeit of similar nature to a true dragon has a different factor and considering the factor is what ultimately decides the type of concept I think that's enough to not warrant usage of Sagan's Standards.

I get your point, I just don't think it's enough to separate the type of concept, factors impact a character's being on levels below the soul, the soul remains independent of the changes brought about by the presence or lack of a factor, and the soul itself still retains the same fundamental composition of spiritrons.

There is also the argument revolving around how basically everyone's spiritual selves are in one way or another descendants/fragments of the great spirits, and thus they could get CM1 souls off the back of that, but honestly, I'm not sure if that'd belong to a different thread or not

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Should have clarified, meant for the veldora scan in the OP, this one

Mb
Well both combined conclude to one thing; magicules can spread one's factor to other things, and targets exposed to that are influenced and undergo transmutation.

Was moreso bringing up this
Specifically, how it states that the factor appears in dragon species in degrees, that the strength of the dragon depends upon how strongly the original elemental dragon factor appears, which implies that the factors themselves exist in multiplicity, and that said multiplicity, in the sense of a character having more or less of the factors, and that impacting strength, is what's making me say it's quantitative, and more informational than conceptual (I haven't read the giant part of your post at the start so I may change my mind, and if I do, ignore this)

Well this is more so about internal quantitative nature than external one. The same way how a 1-A is qualitative compared to a non 1-A, but it can still be divided into 1-A fragments/parts. Dragon Factors can be quantitative in the sense that they can create different lvl of dragons, but its still dragons. They can't just make an ogre or goblin when divided past a certain limit.

And that is fine tbh, I don't think that should be an anti-feat. I mean, you can say the concept of circles manifests strongly in circles closer to perfection than those that aren't, that's internal quantitative nature, not external. Just reducing the degree of said concept manifesting won't magically make it manifest in squares too.

I know, but we don't always use essence by itself as grounds for something being conceptual on the simple basis of fiction going to fiction, otherwise all souls would be type 3 concepts as a baseline (which the fiction then goes on to contradict through having the soul being just like, a half important thing or just a little ball of light somewhere in your body, so to repeat myself, fiction fictioning)

Fair, but that is more of a case-by-case basis. I think it should qualify here since it's the essence even for spirits and true dragons.

I mean, I'm fine with essence as in the soul being the essence of a being, my issue was with Fermo bringing up characters stating true essence as though that really anything separate if the characters themselves just stated essence alone, I prolly shouldn't have quoted your message as part of that response, but eh, it is what it is

I'm pretty sure its a matter of translations, the kanji can be translated to essence or true essence, lol

My second issue is with the idea that the usage of essence in reference to skills wasn't the exact same essence in reference to the nature of the soul, the OP uses that quote to posit the idea that skills also have souls (maybe that was just a misreading on my end), which doesn't work given what the quote itself is saying essence in reference to (in that skills are derived from the desires of humans), and the fact that skills somehow have souls when they themselves are part of/encoded into the soul

I think that would still be the same essence as with souls.
The same as how Essence of True dragons and spirits would be the thing they embody as, well, spirits, skills also have an essence. Skills are basically manifestations of desire. So the essence of a skill that manipulates water would be the idea of controlling water in some way.

The soul being conceptual was never in contention for me lol, the entire spiritual lineage thing that was talked about earlier kinda just hard confirms it, they're all aspects of the great holy spirits, manifest in physicality rather than pure spirituality, but fragments of such nonetheless, I personally just read the factor as being closer to information that defines ones existence, with less or more of it impacting how one's body exists than it being a pure conceptual matter (which it kinda isn't, what with it being multiplicative and all, the idea for it being conceptual would be, beyond what I mentioned before, that there is only, for example, 1 dragon factor which manifests within those of the dragon race (ala the great spirits being the source of all fire/wind/water/etc), and so on, otherwise it's closer to being type 3 or a type 1 personal indepdent than a transcendental universal)

I see.

Well tbf I think it can be information too, if not for the fact that... we already have heart core serving as that, lol. And given how much the verse differentiates between the two (one can survive without a soul but not the heart core, the soul is bound to the world while the heart core attains nirvana and sublimates, so on and so forth), I feel like classifying factors (which are in the soul, rather than the core) as conceptual would be better.

Well, one doesn't need to know the exact ancestry tbh, just that they are also descendant from the spirits and whatnot

I get your point, I just don't think it's enough to separate the type of concept, factors impact a character's being on levels below the soul, the soul remains independent of the changes brought about by the presence or lack of a factor, and the soul itself still retains the same fundamental composition of spiritrons.

Fair. I'll edit the OP for the human souls part.

Smth smth it's revealed that they are actually descendants of the great spirit of time

That would be a broken AE ngl

There is also the argument revolving around how basically everyone's spiritual selves are in one way or another descendants/fragments of the great spirits, and thus they could get CM1 souls off the back of that, but honestly, I'm not sure if that'd belong to a different thread or not

I think I could add it as an additional arg, lemme try

---

Anyways, I'll start adding votes. Can you tell me which parts you agree/disagree with?

 

[Deonment]

Well this is more so about internal quantitative nature than external one. The same way how a 1-A is qualitative compared to a non 1-A, but it can still be divided into 1-A fragments/parts. Dragon Factors can be quantitative in the sense that they can create different lvl of dragons, but its still dragons. They can't just make an ogre or goblin when divided past a certain limit.

Yeah I agree with that second part, I didn't think it could make different races (due to lack of factors and all that), my issue is that its like 50 (just throwing out random numbers) Dragon Factor makes a basic dragon, 100 makes a higher tier one, so on and so forth, implies too much division about the nature of factors for me to go concept over information, I think both are fine, I just prefer the latter over the former

A comparison I'd make would be to a webnovel I read (that I prolly won't ever get to scale, thanks notability requirements) wherein there exist something of a similar nature called Meanings, which bind to energy to give definition, something is only sharp because it has the meaning of being sharp, a fire is only a fire because it has the meaning of fire present within it, however meanings do not exist in multiplicity mind you (or at least in the same way as here), the only thing that determines their strength is that of the meaning's innate properties and the amount of energy it has to carry out said property, not how much of the meaning is there or how much it's expressing itself. That's kinda what I'd expect for me to lean more concept than information (though if I ever did, I'd index meaning as both, but yeah).

And that is fine tbh, I don't think that should be an anti-feat. I mean, you can say the concept of circles manifests strongly in circles closer to perfection than those that aren't, that's internal quantitative nature, not external. Just reducing the degree of said concept manifesting won't magically make it manifest in squares too.

Not saying it's an anti-feat exactly, it isn't mind you, I just think it aligns with what we currently have as information closer than a concept

Also will say that there isn't like, a degree of things one can have when it comes to participating in a concept, you either are or you aren't, there isn't like a gradient on circleness, all circles, regardless of how "close" they are to the perfect circle, participate in the concept equally only changing due to their participation within other concepts (and the whole mortal world being imperfect and whatnot).

I think that would still be the same essence as with souls.
The same as how Essence of True dragons and spirits would be the thing they embody as, well, spirits, skills also have an essence. Skills are basically manifestations of desire. So the essence of a skill that manipulates water would be the idea of controlling water in some way.

Yeah I get that, my brain was just reading it as the OP saying skills had souls somehow

Well tbf I think it can be information too, if not for the fact that... we already have heart core serving as that, lol. And given how much the verse differentiates between the two (one can survive without a soul but not the heart core, the soul is bound to the world while the heart core attains nirvana and sublimates, so on and so forth), I feel like classifying factors (which are in the soul, rather than the core) as conceptual would be better.

I mean, fiction is going to fiction; something doesn't need to be named as such to behave as (how we index) something, and it doesn't need to be limited by a higher structure already exhibiting the same properties (something something cultivation novels), if a verse wants to go Info < CM3 < Info < Matter then there is **** and all we can do to stop it and we should just index it how it appears

So I don't exactly have an issue with it being IM2 on the profiles, even if it isn't information in-verse

That would be a broken AE ngl

Smth smth clearly as a result that upgrades the rest of the souls also

Anyways, I'll start adding votes. Can you tell me which parts you agree/disagree with?

Agree with mostly everything, I just think all souls are CM1, Factors for me are more IM than CM but I'm fine with either.

 

[Explosion-Proximity]

Hhhmm read through everything (skimmed through a few) and I agreed with Astral

Conclusion: Agreed

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Yeah I agree with that second part, I didn't think it could make different races (due to lack of factors and all that), my issue is that its like 50 (just throwing out random numbers) Dragon Factor makes a basic dragon, 100 makes a higher tier one, so on and so forth, implies too much division about the nature of factors for me to go concept over information, I think both are fine, I just prefer the latter over the former

A comparison I'd make would be to a webnovel I read (that I prolly won't ever get to scale, thanks notability requirements) wherein there exist something of a similar nature called Meanings, which bind to energy to give definition, something is only sharp because it has the meaning of being sharp, a fire is only a fire because it has the meaning of fire present within it, however meanings do not exist in multiplicity mind you (or at least in the same way as here), the only thing that determines their strength is that of the meaning's innate properties and the amount of energy it has to carry out said property, not how much of the meaning is there or how much it's expressing itself. That's kinda what I'd expect for me to lean more concept than information (though if I ever did, I'd index meaning as both, but yeah).
Not saying it's an anti-feat exactly, it isn't mind you, I just think it aligns with what we currently have as information closer than a concept

Also will say that there isn't like, a degree of things one can have when it comes to participating in a concept, you either are or you aren't, there isn't like a gradient on circleness, all circles, regardless of how "close" they are to the perfect circle, participate in the concept equally only changing due to their participation within other concepts (and the whole mortal world being imperfect and whatnot).

I thought about this for a bit, and I think your interpretation is mainly because of this word, correct?

When thinking about it together with the story I heard earlier from Eren, it seems that the Elemental Dragon died and became a Chaos Dragon. At that time, dragon factors were probably scattered/spread around. Even now, it seems that Lesser Dragons are born from pools of magicules, and if the factors of the Elemental Dragon appear strongly, they become Upper Dragons (Arch Dragons).

Well, I tried asking Raiki what it means. And here's what I got:

Image Chest

Post with 1 views.

imgchest.com

So I think it's just a matter of English semantics. The japanese meaning is more clear.

Yeah I get that, my brain was just reading it as the OP saying skills had souls somehow

lol

I mean, fiction is going to fiction; something doesn't need to be named as such to behave as (how we index) something, and it doesn't need to be limited by a higher structure already exhibiting the same properties (something something cultivation novels), if a verse wants to go Info < CM3 < Info < Matter then there is **** and all we can do to stop it and we should just index it how it appears

So I don't exactly have an issue with it being IM2 on the profiles, even if it isn't information in-verse

Fair

Smth smth clearly as a result that upgrades the rest of the souls also
Agree with mostly everything, I just think all souls are CM1, Factors for me are more IM than CM but I'm fine with either.

I added the additional arg for the spiritual stuff. Also modified the human soul stuff to fit Cm1. If I forgot to modify something or if u have another thing to add, feel free to tell.

 

[AstraphelNoctis4]

Agree

 

[RaikiKurohane99]

Given the above discussion seems to have reached a conclusion, reading it all, I agree with the thread.

I think concept fits better than information, however, as Factors are shown to be part of the Soul, which is Conceptual.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Given the above discussion seems to have reached a conclusion, reading it all, I agree with the thread.

I think concept fits better than information, however, as Factors are shown to be part of the Soul, which is Conceptual.

Thanks!

Could you also please tag some other staff? :d
@Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @KingTempest @Random-Helper323 @Planck69

 

[AlexSamDen]

I think it's finally time to agree to this CRT

 

[Mido02]

I think it's finally time to agree to this CRT

And revive yours

Anyway agree FRA

 

[Deonment]

Well, I tried asking Raiki what it means. And here's what I got:

Yeah aight, leaning towards conceptual then

 

[ItsMeat]

OP is pretty convincing and I didn't like IM2 AND CM1 at the same time anyway
Agree

 

[Elizhaa]

Type 1 concept seem fine, from the evidence; they do not have to universal to be type 1 either.

 

[RaikiKurohane99]

Thanks!

Could you also please tag some other staff? :d
@Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @KingTempest @Random-Helper323 @Planck69

Your help is appreciated
@DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @KingTempest @Random-Helper323 @Planck69

 

[Ultimuru]

---

 

[Ronaldinhxt1]

Agree

 

[Ultimuru]

Bump

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Bump

no smoothness in the bump

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

 

[SomebodyData]

Was asked to come here and at the moment I am definitely mixed. Neutral on the topic, I can see where the arguments are coming from but don't know how much I can attribute it to the souls being type 1 concepts.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Was asked to come here and at the moment I am definitely mixed. Neutral on the topic, I can see where the arguments are coming from but don't know how much I can attribute it to the souls being type 1 concepts.

Well so far some of the main arguments are:

1. All beings have a soul lineage that traces them back to concepts (type 1) entities. As only their incarnated body changed overtime, their essence (soul) should remain the same.
2. Souls define the essence of beings that embody concepts (and the essence of something that embodies X should be X itself), thus Souls = Concepts

 

[Ultimuru]

 

[SomebodyData]

Well so far some of the main arguments are:

1. All beings have a soul lineage that traces them back to concepts (type 1) entities. As only their incarnated body changed overtime, their essence (soul) should remain the same.
2. Souls define the essence of beings that embody concepts (and the essence of something that embodies X should be X itself), thus Souls = Concepts

Hmm when put that way I can agree with the revisions

 

[Ultimuru]

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Badump

 

[Explosion-Proximity]

Waiting for the final verdict.
Anyways we shall meet again
dissappears again

 

[MetaChronos]

Bump