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Pokemon Discussion Thread - Red & Blue arc

this blog was used to refute the old canon split blog, it has quotes and links to the sources as well.
Admittedly it does appear that there is a lot more evidence that I initially thought but I still have some thoughts. These quotes seem to be talking more about how the games are canon in relation to each other rather than encompassing all Pokemon media, especially the Pokemon Adventures manga. They state that different games can represent what is possible within Pokemon, but that seems to be referring to Pokemon as a franchiese. If I remember correctly, Hidenori Kusaka, the author of the manga, is not affiliated with GameFreak in any way, so scaling the Adventures manga to the anime and games still seems highly questionable.
If there's a clear contradiction, we account for that, that's what the canon heirarchy exists for. If there's something that a pokemon does that it shouldn't be able to do, we don't use it. Like we don't assume Sunny Day is 4-C for seemingly moving the sun in the manga considering it fits neither the scaling nor the other canons.
Why wouldn't this be evidence that the two continuities have different mechanics and are thus separate? There are lots of other contradictions as well, like the anime blatantly ignoring core mechanics of the games like type immunities. In addition, the events of the anime are never brought up in the games. It still seems clear to me that the anime and games, even if sharing a cosmology, function on different laws. Even if Pokedex entries are the same across these different mediums, I do not believe that is sufficient evidence to conclude that the Pokemon in each medium share scaling especially when they display feats of varying impressiveness different from each other. As a notable example, Pokemon in the games have difficulty dodging most moves while in the anime they consistently dodge moves that should have 100% accuracy.
Thank you. Technically I finished my final exam but I still have my thesis I need to finish.
You're welcome!
 
And your 'canon-blog' isnt the gospel either. I've read what I can and disagree heavily, thinking it conveniently ignores everything else that tells you these are separate continuities and flat out ignores how this wiki treats different mediums within the same franchise.

They're references. And use of meta-aspects such as wonder trades and gift pokemon. You arent legitimately getting Ash's Pokemon in these events, it makes 0 sense. Meanwhile you think its comprehensible at all the stuff that happens in the anime, like the counter shields or that thunder armour, and we can ergo scale it? They're flat out different mediums and the sooner the wiki realises it the better.
The characters from the anime dont appear in the mainline, its the other way around lol. Just cause Ash-Greninja exists in the games doesnt mean it then directly connects to mainline. gonna conveniently ignore the multiverse aspect just to look that over and say that the games are now 1:1 with the anime
Even for the stuff that isnt, its vague stuff you gotta string together without any direct confirmation, and even then its outweighed by the entire different takes and narratives of these mediums.
If it is not too much trouble, could you elaborate on this?
 
So you agree that there are differences in scaling between universes?
That's not a difference in scaling, it's a difference in attack portrayal, a type of difference that has been happening across the games and all other media with how many things get changed in appearance.
 
Admittedly it does appear that there is a lot more evidence that I initially thought but I still have some thoughts. These quotes seem to be talking more about how the games are canon in relation to each other rather than encompassing all Pokemon media, especially the Pokemon Adventures manga. They state that different games can represent what is possible within Pokemon, but that seems to be referring to Pokemon as a franchiese. If I remember correctly, Hidenori Kusaka, the author of the manga, is not affiliated with GameFreak in any way, so scaling the Adventures manga to the anime and games still seems highly questionable.
I don't see it as such, he may not be with Gamefreak but it's clear that the company has great influence on the manga with their rules about canon writing and what is and isn't allowed in the game. With a developer saying the manga is what they envision the world would look like, I'd say it's very much confirmation that this works properly.
Why wouldn't this be evidence that the two continuities have different mechanics and are thus separate?
Because they don't beyond minor differences that usually can be attributed to moves having various effects, something that happens within the media itself as well.
There are lots of other contradictions as well, like the anime blatantly ignoring core mechanics of the games like type immunity
No they don't, that's blatantly wrong. Either the immunities are bypassed via outside methods like using water to bypass water immunity with a pseudo-Soak, or they are very blatant errors that don't get repeated again. There are errors in the anime, they are very much errors that don't get repeated again and shouldn't be considered.
In addition, the events of the anime are never brought up in the games.
They're parallel universes, I never said they're in the same universe. Ash and Alain do exist in the games too though as evidenced by Ash-Greninja and ash cap Pikachu existing and Steven mentioning Alain in Oras.
It still seems clear to me that the anime and games, even if sharing a cosmology, function on different laws.
They do not, at all, the evidence you brought up is based on errors in the episodes that never get repeated. Bring up something else as evidence.
Even if Pokedex entries are the same across these different mediums, I do not believe that is sufficient evidence to conclude that the Pokemon in each medium share scaling
It's scientific research in-verse that is consistent across all timelines. I don't see how that's not conclusive.
especially when they display feats of varying impressiveness different from each other.
They do not, otherwise, prove it.
As a notable example, Pokemon in the games have difficulty dodging most moves while in the anime they consistently dodge moves that should have 100% accuracy.
This is ignoring official animations specifically made to represent ingame events like Origins and Twilight Wings (or even that one Bidoof animation) which clearly show Pokemon dodging attacks with ease, even 100% accuracy ones. The pokedex outright talks about mons dodging attacks too.

Them not dodging much is very clearly a game mechanic that is very common in RPGs.
 
I see no counter-arguments besides "I disagree", "it breaks how wiki treats mediums" (even though the staff read the blog and agreed to use it), "it's compositing" (they're species profiles with the only 'composite' being some speed feats from the anime because the games are limited). It's the same spiel over and over again, calling shit wank whilst trying to hide downplay behind the strive for better profiles. I am not gonna argue with someone who clearly just wants to stonewall because their opinion is set in stone. You ignore the interviews, never actually debunk anything, talking with you is a waste of time.
Whateeeeeever keeps your agenda alive Sean. Im surprised even Death Battle got this before VSBW. Staff members arent gospel either, bad/incorrect things get passed through all the time
If it is not too much trouble, could you elaborate on this?
Well idk what you specifically need elaboration on but essentially that blog is full of a lot of 'bits and pieces', and are trying to use the words of higher-ups to apply to powerscaling (despite logistically not having aany stake in all that or mixing the lores for powerscaling purposes). Stuff like how there are game events where you can get a Pikachu with Ash's hat, or the concept of Ash-Greninja, or even Mystery Gifts that are meant to be based off 'Ash's' Pokemon.

Its a big argument that Pokemon is all within the same multiverse too, including the anime and stuff. While thats true...like, literally how the rest of the wiki verses operate, we still dont combine those canons or try to composite scaling inbetween them (unless they're super similar, such as maybe in the cases of comparing S/M to US/UM). However this is taken a step further in order to try and mix manga and anime stuff into it as well, which then just becomes lazy imo and trying to purposefully high-scale the verse asap.
Sadly the verse is way too difficult to change from this and the workload is super high so its super stagnant right now. They dont see reason in regards to this.
 
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They're parallel universes, I never said they're in the same universe. Ash and Alain do exist in the games too though as evidenced by Ash-Greninja and ash cap Pikachu existing and Steven mentioning Alain in Oras.
Gotta love how people only wanna cherrypick these instances too. Apparently the whole Mega dimension separation theory isnt considered on the wiki, but we'll try and say that because Steven mentions Alain that the Anime and Games take place in the same verse (The Steven in the anime, as well as the plot of ORAS are just blatantly not the same)

And Ig alternate versions of characters in separate universes dont exist, and if they did they would ofc be 1:1 as strong as they are in the anime theyre from with no evidence. Its so transparent. What actually makes you think that because Alain is mentioned its the same one as the one in the anime???

EDIT: Oh lmao, and how because pokemon know how to dodge moves in special tie-in anime, it means we can then assume that Pokemon can easily dodge Solar Beam (and not consider aim-dodging as a thing) and therefore the entire verse is FTL. Its just so lame

Nvm this gets better. "Whenever the anime forgets the game-laws of pokemon countless upon countless of times, its just an error, and then its fine because the move Soak exists. Therefore we cant consider them and everything in the games and anime are completely and 100% consistent with one another"
 
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All I see is a bunch of puffery and no actual counter arguments. If I wanna debate someone about it I'll debate Ayoguys, he's actually challenging my points while your entire argument basically sums up to "cherrypicking", " Doesn't count" and "agenda" repeated ad nauseam.
 
All I see is a bunch of puffery and no actual counter arguments. If I wanna debate someone about it I'll debate Ayoguys, he's actually challenging my points while your entire argument basically sums up to "cherrypicking", " Doesn't count" and "agenda" repeated ad nauseam.
One of your arguments is literally going 'Doesnt count' to the numerous times the anime completely follows its own laws and rules? Hypocrisy for the agenda.

Trust me, i aint trying to debate you lmfao. I just mourn an actual representation of the Pokemon mediums and multiverse properly on this site without people thinking its too hard so they have to composite (because they desperately need Pokemon as strong as possible)
 
And Ig alternate versions of characters in separate universes dont exist, and if they did they would ofc be 1:1 as strong as they are in the anime theyre from with no evidence. Its so transparent
Also we literally go to a parallel universe, several, in Sun and Moon and USUM. Pokemon there are not different at all, an Eeevee there and an Eevee in the other world will literally be the same. Pokemon anime is outright said to be a parallel universe. So yes, they are 1:1.
 
One of your arguments is literally going 'Doesnt count' to the numerous times the anime completely follows its own laws and rules? Hypocrisy for the agenda.

Trust me, i aint trying to debate you lmfao
Hypocrisy my ass, 'anime follows its own rules' is utter bullshit based on literal anime errors that never get repeated again. If you think errors should count as rules then go upgrade Mario to infinite speed for backwards long jumping lmfao.
 
Also we literally go to a parallel universe, several, in Sun and Moon and USUM. Pokemon there are not different at all, an Eeevee there and an Eevee in the other world will literally be the same. Pokemon anime is outright said to be a parallel universe. So yes, they are 1:1.
Comparing how the parallel universes work WITHIN a mainstream game, and are present in the exact same title =/= Comparing how completely separate branches of the fundamental media works (Comparing how a game is made and coded to how a story is written). Especially when said media has proven time and time again to not be bound to how the games work, and take place in a completely separate story.

Even then, like the rest of the wiki does, we still make separate pages for characters with different interpretations, even if theyre vaguely part of the same multiverse. And we dont hinge scaling between them unless in cases they directly interact.

Using this to purely affirm that the anime and game power-levels are exactly the same is just pure wank. Do you not have a shred of scrutiny for this argument at all?
 
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Hypocrisy my ass, 'anime follows its own rules' is utter bullshit based on literal anime errors that never get repeated again. If you think errors should count as rules then go upgrade Mario to infinite speed for backwards long jumping lmfao.
You dont need to lie this badly. Are you deadass gonna hold up the opinion that the anime doesnt disregard the rules of the games numerous times throughout its 29 year run?
 
Comparing how the parallel universes work WITHIN a mainstream game, and are present in the exact same title =/= Comparing how completely separate branches of the fundamental media works. Especially when said media has proven time and time again to not be bound to how the games work, and take place in a completely separate story.
Except the interviews outright contradict what you're saying and the differences in the worlds are minor at best. In-verse differences among timelines can be notable too, Ultra Megalopolis being a perfect example of a very different world, but it still perfectly interacts with the main world and other worlds that are actually fully parallel haven't shown any differences.
They're different branches but they're outright meant to be representations of how a world limited by game mechanics should function
Using this to purely affirm that the anime and game power-levels are exactly the same is just pure wank. Do you not have a shred of scrutiny for this argument at all?
You yourself haven't provided any actual evidence beyond your own opinion, why should I be the one applying scrutiny when you haven't got any for yourself.
You dont need to lie this badly. Are you deadass gonna hold up the opinion that the anime doesnt disregard the rules of the games numerous times throughout its 29 year run?
On very few occasions and in ways that don't go beyond anything the games themselves can pull out.
Just to give an example, since clearly I'm the only one who actually has to bring evidence to the table and not the person making counter arguments, the infamous thunder armor thing in gen 3 is very clearly unique, and yet it doesn't go beyond stuff we see in the games, like Pikachu in Let's Go having unique moves like splishy splash or zappy zap.
So there are either errors or inconsistencies that aren't beyond the game scope.
 
  • Abusing Interviews and completely misinterpreting what they are saying/mean to try and desperately apply to the powerscaling (surprise, they arent meant for that), and disregard the fact that the games and the anime are blatantly different mediums.
  • Beg for evidence on the same level as a blog full of many, many misconceptions but going to tirelessly deny and wave off as 'oh thats just an error that doesnt count' to create nauseum.
  • Completely reach and try and connect completely unrelated things from the games and the anime to justify glaring holes in what show the anime and the games dont work the same way.
  • Has been boosting a known faulty calc from a sidegame to justify FTL on average Pokemon, admitting blatantly its cause they couldnt find anything in the mainline to get them to that level
Must maintain the agenda. Muting this now, please dont bother yapping back this verse is cooked and thats sadly how its gonna stay until someone has the time to waste on all this
 
-Says using official statements is "abusing" interviews even though it's the most blatant WoG
-Makes fun of me for asking for evidence
-Says blog is full of misconceptions, best evidence so far is calling everything a reference
-Calls evidence unrelated, provides 0 evidence for that

Please, do mute this. If I required as much proof in a CRT as you're currently providing I'd get Magikarp to Tier 0.
 
I think both of you should relax and chill a bit. There is no need to make comments such as "You dont need to lie this badly." and "You ignore the interviews, never actually debunk anything, talking with you is a waste of time."
 
And for the record I still do not think the Adventures Manga should be cross-scaled. The author is not affiliated with GameFreak and has not stated he considers it canon.
 
And for the record I still do not think the Adventures Manga should be cross-scaled. The author is not affiliated with GameFreak and has not stated he considers it canon.
I don't understand your complaint. The manga was ordered to be made by Nintendo and several game makers support it fully as a great representation of the world of the games. It's an officially licensed Pokemon product similarly to the anime. Gamefreak is specifically the company that works of the games, so obviously the manga artist would be in a different part of the company.
 
I don't understand your complaint. The manga was ordered to be made by Nintendo and several game makers support it fully as a great representation of the world of the games.
This is true. But that's all we know. Nintendo only asked for him to write a manga, this does not mean it is canon.
It's an officially licensed Pokemon product similarly to the anime.
Pokemon Adventures is published by non-Nintendo related companies.
Gamefreak is specifically the company that works of the games, so obviously the manga artist would be in a different part of the company.
While Satoshi Tajiri did state that Pokemon Adventures is closest to how he imagines Pokemon to be, the actual companies and people writing the manga have not said anything. I do not believe that just because I as an author may consider a fanfiction to be closest to what I intended means that fanfiction is now canon, especially if the fanfic's authors have not said anything about the topic.
 
Though I think Pokemon desperately needs a major rework regardless, perhaps once I am finished with my other WIP CRTs I'll see if a Staff Thread to revise Pokemon scaling could be possible.
 
This is true. But that's all we know. Nintendo only asked for him to write a manga, this does not mean it is canon.
I mean if an author outright says it's similar to his vision, if the company orders the manga to be made, if all the anime and manga are outright meant to be parallel universes then I don't see the issues.
Duh, Nintendo isn't a manga platform, of course it uses someone else for publishing. Pokemon company doesn't go around making their own consoles either, the games are distributed by Nintendo because that's what they do. It's the same principle.
While Satoshi Tajiri did state that Pokemon Adventures is closest to how he imagines Pokemon to be, the actual companies and people writing the manga have not said anything.
They've said more than enough when they literally paid a company to make it lol
I do not believe that just because I as an author may consider a fanfiction to be closest to what I intended means that fanfiction is now canon, especially if the fanfic's authors have not said anything about the topic.
Calling this fanfiction is unbelievably disingenuous, it's a manga sponsored by the Pokemon company that is confirmed to fit the vision of the world. It has all the copyright for Pokemon and Gamefreak listed on the volume pages and is officially sold in Pokemon Centers and Nintendo shops. I genuinely don't understand you here.
 
Though I think Pokemon desperately needs a major rework regardless, perhaps once I am finished with my other WIP CRTs I'll see if a Staff Thread to revise Pokemon scaling could be possible.
Why a staff thread? To prevent supporters from participating properly?
 
I mean if an author outright says it's similar to his vision, if the company orders the manga to be made, if all the anime and manga are outright meant to be parallel universes then I don't see the issues.

Duh, Nintendo isn't a manga platform, of course it uses someone else for publishing. Pokemon company doesn't go around making their own consoles either, the games are distributed by Nintendo because that's what they do. It's the same principle.

They've said more than enough when they literally paid a company to make it lol

Calling this fanfiction is unbelievably disingenuous, it's a manga sponsored by the Pokemon company that is confirmed to fit the vision of the world. It has all the copyright for Pokemon and Gamefreak listed on the volume pages and is officially sold in Pokemon Centers and Nintendo shops. I genuinely don't understand you here.
Respectfully, I'm just going to drop this debate because I frankly don't think either of us will budge. For the record, there is admittedly a lot more evidence of Pokemon having a fused canon than I originally thought, I'll wait for others to comment with their own thoughts.
 
Well regular CRTs on this scale frequently get derailed and get caught up in long pages of repetitive argumentation.
and staff CRTs give OP full reign whilst limiting members to 3 replies that they have to make after being allowed to participate by a staff member which may not happen because the person gets ignored or because the staff member's left asscheek itched a bit too hard and they decided that the "input isn't relevant", even when it is.
Since there's like 2 staff members tops who are active and very knowledgeable in Pokemon (and who took like half a month to participate in some of my simplest CRTs) you're basically putting any opposition behind several barriers.
 
and staff CRTs give OP full reign whilst limiting members to 3 replies that they have to make after being allowed to participate by a staff member which may not happen because the person gets ignored or because the staff member's left asscheek itched a bit too hard and they decided that the "input isn't relevant", even when it is.
Since there's like 2 staff members tops who are active and very knowledgeable in Pokemon (and who took like half a month to participate in some of my simplest CRTs) you're basically putting any opposition behind several barriers.
Perhaps a regular CRT with a note that purposeful derailment will be deleted, just like GodlyCharmander's DR downgrade thread to help cut down needless clutter. A Wiki Collaborations thread might also be a good idea in my eyes.
 
"Its canon because Nintendo ordered for it"

So what, non/separate canon content of a franchise doesnt still publish under its own IP?

I never understood this argument either that just because the writers/developers/whatever are making their adaptation faithful to 'the world of Pokemon', it then means they're automatically apart of the same continuities and canons just because its using the same beats? Like, the Anime, Manga and Games are all very clearly their own adaptations, but apparently Pokemon is the only verse allowed to composite these because 'multiverse' (several verses have their separate continuities in a wider multiverse...that's been a huge recurring theme. Just because Xenoverse and the main continuity of Dragon Ball are in the same overall multiverse doesnt mean we cross scale them)
 
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Perhaps a regular CRT with a note that purposeful derailment will be deleted, just like GodlyCharmander's DR downgrade thread to help cut down needless clutter. A Wiki Collaborations thread might also be a good idea in my eyes.
That would be better yes
"Its canon because Nintendo ordered for it"

So what, non/separate canon content of a franchise doesnt still publish under its own IP?
-"I'm muting this"
-comes back immediately

😭😭😭


regardless your argument is gramatically broken and I don't understand what you're even asking for. Nintendo uses a manga publishing company to publish manga. Are we gonna say that anime adaptations aren't official releases of a media because the anime isn't made by the novel company next? All the copyright is there on the volume pages even before the publisher is mentioned, all the info is there, the support from the game makers is there.
 
I didnt come back immediately at all. Its literally just the next day for me????
Good job ignoring the point tho.

Official Releases under the same IP does NOT automatically mean the content is canon to the mainline though, be serious. All Non-Canon content also gets 'officially published'
 
I didnt come back immediately at all. Its literally just the next day for me????
Half a day, and if you were going to sleep there was no point of announcing it all dramatic like lmao
Good job ignoring the point tho.
literally responded
Official Releases under the same IP does NOT automatically mean the content is canon to the mainline though, be serious. All Non-Canon content also gets 'officially published'
canon is determined by how the original creators treat it. If the manga is treated as an accurate representation of the verse then it should be treated as such. This is a question of distribution, not a question of canon.
 
Half a day, and if you were going to sleep there was no point of announcing it all dramatic like lmao
Look at you genuinely tryna ragebait and derail over this. Timezones exist and I didn't 'announce it'. Literally drop this section of it.
canon is determined by how the original creators treat it. If the manga is treated as an accurate representation of the verse then it should be treated as such. This is a question of distribution, not a question of canon.
Firstly you can hardly coin this to an 'original creator' when Pokemon has had multiple writers, creators, publisher comapnies etc. You just see a bunch of big names in interviews saying 'the world of pokemon' and think thats then confirming its all one big canon world. Purposefully misinterpreting it for agenda. Just because these people are saying it too...doesnt just give you the right to ignore all the blatant continuity errors and separate interpretations of the characters

The Manga is treated as a separate continuity using separate elements. Much like every different adaptation ever. It doesnt mean you can mix and composite it as canon just because it sticks to faithful elements like 'pikachu exists in both worlds'. The Manga has even more extreme plotlines and differences than that of both the games and the anime too iirc.

No, canon is extremely important because then thats what is used to scale, with the whole point of this convo asking why you composite all these separate adaptations. I know why of course (agenda), but now you're trying to use the fact that just because something is directly published under the Pokemon IP...It then means we can canon mix it into the mainline automatically.
So trying to say 'oh its directly published under nintendo, therefore its definitely mainline canon because you think its a 'good representation of Pokemon' is blatantly disingenuous.
 
I know why of course (agenda)
This is basically the crux of everything you've been saying so far. I ain't gonna take you seriously and I ain't gonna talk to you again. You repeat talking points and accuse me of bullshit that you derived to make whomever supports canon unity look bad.
You never provide evidence, you never actually make a compelling argument beyond saying that things are objectively supposed to be some way when none of it is objective.

If Ay makes a thread I'll go and reply there, but with you I am not gonna interact again. I won't take someone who provides nothing to back his claims and then calls me a liar seriously. Good day.
 
If Ay makes a thread I'll go and reply there
I am currently already working on other major revisions as well as the development of my own power scaling wiki, so it is unlikely I will make major Pokemon threads soon. If I do eventually get around to it, I will be sure to alert the people in this thread.
 
This is basically the crux of everything you've been saying so far. I ain't gonna take you seriously and I ain't gonna talk to you again. You repeat talking points and accuse me of bullshit that you derived to make whomever supports canon unity look bad.
You never provide evidence, you never actually make a compelling argument beyond saying that things are objectively supposed to be some way when none of it is objective.

If Ay makes a thread I'll go and reply there, but with you I am not gonna interact again. I won't take someone who provides nothing to back his claims and then calls me a liar seriously. Good day.
Scapegoat so you dont actually have to answer the actual claims you're trying to make now that anything distributed officialy is automatically canon.

I already told you I wasnt debating you so no, im not gonna take any more effort tthan whats on the top of my head in regards to this. Its blatantly obvious that the Anime, Games and Manga work on separate continuities, and unlike every other verse on this wiki people think Pokemon can get away with it, literally because you cant find any strong average feats you consider in the games. I havent accused you of anything less than you've admitted, and when it hurts the quality of the verse then ofc im not gonna be pandering to you over it.

Always the people that think they get to decide what a 'compelling argument' is smh
 
That is literally how arguments works?
No it isnt??? You wouldnt make one of the lawyers defending a client be the one to also decide the verdict lmao

One side out of the two sides arguing doesnt get to determine whose argument is more compelling? Theyre obviously, in most cases on this wiki at least, going to be partial to their own while dismissive of any other takes.
Its typically third parties that get to decide the conclusions
 
No it isnt??? You wouldnt make one of the lawyers defending a client be the one to also decide the verdict lmao

One side out of the two sides arguing doesnt get to determine whose argument is more compelling? Theyre obviously, in most cases on this wiki at least, going to be partial to their own while dismissive of any other takes.
Its typically third parties that get to decide the conclusions
That is not the case here though.
 
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