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The Revenant Marvel Comics Discussion Thread

Yeah, to be honest, the more I think about it, the more I dislike 1-A. I'm thinking Abstract M-Bodies should just be Low 1-A, since Skyfather Tier characters do have the ability to hurt them, meaning that they do not "transcend lower existences to the point that those vanish into nothingness." I think the Infinity Gauntlet can probably be 1-A though, as it does seem to have the reality/fiction transcendence 1-A implies (even if it is apparently below Abstract true forms).

I can make a thread tomorrow if everyone is ok with that
Would just like to note that it doesn’t make sense for m bodies to “just be low 1-A”, since the abstracts can make their m bodies however powerful they want and have canonically made them weaker then they normally are, not saying that m bodies are normally 1-A or anything but just don’t think that they should be treated as purely low 1-A
 
Yeah, to be honest, the more I think about it, the more I dislike 1-A. I'm thinking Abstract M-Bodies should just be Low 1-A, since Skyfather Tier characters do have the ability to hurt them, meaning that they do not "transcend lower existences to the point that those vanish into nothingness." I think the Infinity Gauntlet can probably be 1-A though, as it does seem to have the reality/fiction transcendence 1-A implies (even if it is apparently below Abstract true forms).

I can make a thread tomorrow if everyone is ok with that
I disagree for various reasons but I wouldn't mind talking it out
 
marvel downgrade incoming? i might participate in a CRT for the first time in my life. i might go overboard though. sorry future op.
 
marvel downgrade incoming? i might participate in a CRT for the first time in my life. i might go overboard though. sorry future op.
Not necessarily a downgrade. One of the two options it will have is returning Skyfather Tiers to 1-A. The other option will be to remove some scaling to Abstracts (like Dormammu). Right now it's looking like the first option is more likely. I talked with Eseseso and he gave lots of evidence for 1-A. There will be room to discuss 1-A anti-feats and ironing that out (I will remain neutral on that front), but Eseseso says that those anti-feats can be resolved
 
Not necessarily a downgrade. One of the two options it will have is returning Skyfather Tiers to 1-A. The other option will be to remove some scaling to Abstracts (like Dormammu). Right now it's looking like the first option is more likely. I talked with Eseseso and he gave lots of evidence for 1-A. There will be room to discuss 1-A anti-feats and ironing that out (I will remain neutral on that front), but Eseseso says that those anti-feats can be resolved
eseseso explain how the 1-A anti-feats can be resolved please
 
Not necessarily a downgrade. One of the two options it will have is returning Skyfather Tiers to 1-A. The other option will be to remove some scaling to Abstracts (like Dormammu). Right now it's looking like the first option is more likely. I talked with Eseseso and he gave lots of evidence for 1-A. There will be room to discuss 1-A anti-feats and ironing that out (I will remain neutral on that front), but Eseseso says that those anti-feats can be resolved
I still prefer Skyfathers to be Low 1-A, but I will see this thread when it comes
 
eseseso explain how the 1-A anti-feats can be resolved please
Many, if not ALL of the top people who can affect 1-A entities are either top telepaths (with the Astral Plane being a 1-A conceptual/informational realm transcendent of the standard universe) and/or users of magic, a 1-A force that came from beyond/before the multiverse.

Ultima even agreed with me in a chat that magic being a 1-A force negates virtually all antifeats.

Also, Thor has power from his Elder Goddess mom Gaea, with Elder Gods also being beyond the multiverse.
 
Many, if not ALL of the top people who can affect 1-A entities are either top telepaths (with the Astral Plane being a 1-A conceptual/informational realm transcendent of the standard universe) and/or users of magic, a 1-A force that came from beyond/before the multiverse.
Okay, that's nice, anyway the Astral Plane is not 1-A. I reject that assumption.
Ultima even agreed with me in a chat that magic being a 1-A force negates virtually all antifeats.
Kirbons and also non-magical people can not instantly get klled by 1-A magic. This just makes me doubt Ultima's ability to understand his own system.
Also, Thor has power from his Elder Goddess mom Gaea, with Elder Gods also being beyond the multiverse.
Scaling below Kirbons, and below TOAA who has one of the worst anti-feats of every creator god in fiction: going down in person to a planet with a finitely powerful attack with no special hax abilities, and then promptly getting hit by a basic finite speed attack that has generic corruption hax.
It makes me, in real life, smarter than TOAA.
You also aren't mentioning how 0.00000001% of 1-A is 1-A, so Thor should logically instantly destroy things like planets, galaxies, with literally 0 effort. (He doesn't) He would also take 0 damage from anything not 1-A (He does).
 
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Okay, that's nice, anyway the Astral Plane is not 1-A. I reject that assumption.

Kirbons and also non-magical people can not instantly get klled by 1-A magic. This just makes me doubt Ultima's ability to understand his own system.

Scaling below Kirbons, and below TOAA who has one of the worst anti-feats of every creator god in fiction: going down in person to a planet with a finitely powerful attack with no special hax abilities, and then promptly getting hit by a basic finite speed attack that has generic corruption hax.
It makes me, in real life, smarter than TOAA.
You also aren't mentioning how 0.00000001% of 1-A is 1-A, so Thor should logically instantly destroy things like planets, galaxies, with literally 0 effort. (He doesn't) He would also take 0 damage from anything not 1-A (He does).
You have provided No debunk for the evidence that astral plane is 1-A, no acknowledgment of the fact that it’s not magic that non magic beings withstand it’s what’s created by magic that they withstand, and 1-A stuff can make non 1-A stuff and magic quite blatantly normally creates stuff that’s lower then magic itself, no evidence that what TOAA was harmed by was finite, self contradiction by both saying the attack had no special Hax and admitting it had corruption hax, no acknowledgment of the fact that even regular gods can lower their level of existence so a 1-A god like Thor should logically be able to do it to a 1-A extent

not trying to sound mean or anything, but these non arguments are straight up annoying
 
you don't leave comments open on the sandbox.
EDIT: whatever. You can see the Marvel debunk here. It might not work on VS wiki because VS wiki unironically supports illogic.
Respectfully, I don't understand why you're here or what your aim is. It's obviously to share your opinion that Marvel and DC aren't outerversal but you also know that this site believes they are, even among the most skeptical of scalers, and instead of making a CRT, you try to get people to engage with a Google doc you've written, despite openly knowing that most disagree and from how it sounds, look down on us fo doing so.
 
Respectfully, I don't understand why you're here or what your aim is.
To see if anyone can refute the Tour De Force. Currently I don't see anything other than people falling back to excuses like 'please make a CRT' or 'we don't do that here', i.e: appeals to procedure and tradition.
It's obviously to share your opinion that Marvel and DC aren't outerversal but you also know that this site believes they are,
I don't care what most people believe.
even among the most skeptical of scalers, and instead of making a CRT,
Considering what LainWest said about CRTs, yeah, no wonder I don't do them. To properly engage in a CRT I would have to, of course, explain parts of the Tour De Force relating to VSwiki's methodology. I.E: the illogical terms VSwiki uses, and the lack of falsification. Obviously this is too exhausting for me to engage in, so I won't. (and it's highly likely VSwiki would engage in unironic illogical cope anyway)
you try to get people to engage with a Google doc you've written, despite openly knowing that most disagree and from how it sounds, look down on us fo doing so.
The arguments against my position on Marvel and DC requires you to not know how the definitions of words work in a fundamental sense, so uh, yeah. I don't tolerate anyone who uses logical contradictions in the process of arguing against or for a position. I think they're at best misguided, at best actually stupid. In either case their arguments go past beyond 'suspect' into 'automatically wrong, no exceptions, do not pass go'.
 
You have provided No debunk for the evidence that astral plane is 1-A,
I have, in the Tour De Force. Debunks are debunks, regardless of where they come from. If there was an even more comprehensive and total debunk of Marvel Cosmology on one of the moons of Jupiter, it would be right, even if no human could ever possibly read it. If your only argument against something that refutes your position to a level that would require logical contradiction in the process of arguing against it (Especially the parts about infinity and abstraction in Marvel) is to apply to a bureaucratic standard then you don't actually have an argument, because arguments do not gain or lose weight depending on what social rules to follow. VS wiki would preface every single argument it makes with a long screed about ethnic minorities and homosexuals and pretty much everyone else, and put racial slurs in between every word as it exists on the page, and it would not change the strength of their arguments one iota. The fact that you mistake a social rule for an actual law of argumentation is extremely poor for your ability to defend your claims and debunk opposing claims.
no acknowledgment of the fact that it’s not magic that non magic beings withstand it’s what’s created by magic that they withstand,
1-A magic hitting a non 1-A character would be like a real person setting a fictional character on fire. I.e: there's nothing the fictional character can do except get affected. Characters with explicitly no magic resistance in Marvel can not get instantly killed/haxed/whatever by supposedly '1-A' magic.
and 1-A stuff can make non 1-A stuff and magic quite blatantly normally creates stuff that’s lower then magic itself,
1-A things cannot create non 1-A things that come from parts of themselves. Sure, a 1-A character can create non 1-A characters, but not by literally dividing themselves into Not-Infinity. Considering the 1-A basis for Marvel Magic is 'they warp the universe to cast spells' this means either the universe isn't 1-A or that everyone in Marvel is 1-A, which disproves 1-A as you need a transcendence to be 1-A. If everything is on that level from the start; there is no transcendence, therefore no 1-A.
no evidence that what TOAA was harmed by was finite,
If you have infinite durability, there is no limit to the amount of force that you can withstand without being harmed. Since there is no limit to how much force you can take, you can't take physical damage. People need to negate your durability to harm you.
Similarly, there is no 'gradual' with infinity. You cannot wear down someone with infinite durability, because infinity minus 99% of infinity is still infinity (same number). Wearing down finite amounts of an infinitely durable character is a logical paradox at its strongest (Supertasks don't have a final state) or would take a literal infinite amount of time. You are either infinite or not. Let's assume that bigger infinities are applicable for physical measurement like mass, volume, energy, density and the like (They're not but we're playing pretend). Since the difference between higher infinities is an infinite difference, there are exactly three outcomes to a fight between infinitely powerful beings:
1. Infinite stalemate. Neither can harm each other, outpower each other, wear each other down, tire each other out.
2. Instant death. The lower infinity character's attacks are no-sold and they are instantly destroyed by any attack of the higher infinity's characters
3. Hax battle. By now physical durability and power no longer play, meaning it's a question of range, hax, intelligence, and resistances.
self contradiction by both saying the attack had no special Hax and admitting it had corruption hax,
It has basic ***** corruption hax. TOAA is dumber than me IRL because if I were in his position I would have immediately sent an army of people to talk it out with the Mother of Horrors that have every power in fiction (and then some) and if the mother of horrors attacks, the attack:
  • Instantly gets negated
  • Mother of Horrors retroactively ceases to exist
  • If the attack hits (It cannot) it heals me and makes me strong enough to auto-win
  • If the attack works, it retroactively fails to works, and every being to ever exist is now possessed with perfect knowledge of the Mother of Horrors and the ability and will to utterly destroy her
  • Among quite literally, an infinite amount of other things
no acknowledgment of the fact that even regular gods can lower their level of existence so a 1-A god like Thor should logically be able to do it to a 1-A extent
Not only does this claim not have a source (meaning I could just dismiss it easily), the entire claim for 1-A Thor is that he can power up to such a level that he can harm 1-A characters, which in of itself disproves him being 1-A, because you can't go from non 1-A to 1-A under multiplying your own power, under the rules of VS wiki.
not trying to sound mean or anything, but these non arguments are straight up annoying
Your non-arguments are logical contradictions and could be dismissed automatically. I don't because I'm not that rude, despite how my positions are supported by things like plato.edu, scientific papers, and mathematical papers (all of them infinitely more reliable than anything any powerscaler says, meaning when they contradict they essentially always win). In the Tour De Force I used an argument from silence in the sense that since no mathematician or scientist uses dimensional tiering (supposedly based off of mathematics and science) it isn't true. It would be a fallacy if you know the claim behind dimensional tiering wasn't pseudomath and pseudoscience.
 
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Well, I agree with Aleph about that our tiering systen has been abused, so many verses, including Marvel and DC Comics, has turned ridiculously inflated and extremely strongly contradicts what is shown within the actual stories, but I am not a militant ideological atheist who disagrees with any form of spiritual methaphysical tiering system simply because it isn't solely based on mathematics, and I think that we got rid of automatic dimensional tiering many years ago, and are only supposed to use it in cases where a fiction explicitly uses such standards.

In addition, he has been unnecessarily smugly arrogant and hostile towards mostly friendly people in our community. 🙏
 
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Is it possible to treat "Agility" as its own verse specific stat?
I've noticed a pattern of Marvel street tiers outpacing fast high tiers solely by being more agile.
 
If Amazo can copy DC magic, which is just as bonkers as Marvel magic from what I've researched and seen, then copying Marvel magic shouldn't be an issue.
Considering they're "sister universes" I don't see why not.
Amazo most likely would copy Strange in an official crossover.
 
Speaking of, is Amazo different from guys like Super Adaptoid or Nimrod, whose weakness is lack of imagination?
 
News regarding a change in Marvel Comics' leadership:



It would, of course, be welcome if this will lead to less excessively gratuitiously dystopian, hopeless, morbid, ultraviolent, amoral, sadistic, and otherwise extremely dark storytelling, but I may be too hopeful in that regard. 🙏
 
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News regarding a change in Marvel Comics' leadership:



It would, of course, be welcome if this will lead to less excessively gratuitiously dystopian, hopeless, morbid, ultraviolent, amoral, sadistic, and otherwise extremely dark storytelling, but I may be too hopeful in that regard. 🙏
I'll need to do a bit more digging, but from initial details I'm seeing, this probably means more MCU synergy.
 
Hmm. I really hope that doesn't mess up Al Ewing's plan for his Thor trilogy. 🙏
 
Hmm. It is already very bad, with all of the incoherence in the storytelling, the relentless neverending restarts, a lack of excellent genuinely enjoyable writers who are not gleefully amoral, with the exception of Al Ewing, and all of the problems with extreme and unenjoyable darkness that I mentioned above, so I certainly don't hope that things will get even worse, but rather that the people who have held Marvel's full potential back behind the scenes for a few decades are being removed. 🙏
 
I think the Elder Gods should have their own profiles since why the wiki don't have them? They have way more than 20 appearances throughout marvel comics
 
Because there’s literal thousands of characters that have over 20 appearances so we aren’t able to make a profile for every single one now take your silly questions somewhere else
We haven’t gotten to it yet, we’ll probably do so soonish though
I can help with the profiles
 
ok I need help, where does this image/illustration come from? (I was the one who even rendered that in the past, I still don't remember much)

Wanna see if I can get a higher quality version


Was it you perhaps that request it to be rendered? 😅 idk why I feel like you would perhaps know
I don't remember, but I did add some of the quotes and header images to our Thor page. 🙏
 
News regarding a change in Marvel Comics' leadership:



It would, of course, be welcome if this will lead to less excessively gratuitiously dystopian, hopeless, morbid, ultraviolent, amoral, sadistic, and otherwise extremely dark storytelling, but I may be too hopeful in that regard. 🙏
Possible update to this: apparently this is part of some sort of "executive cleaning" going on across all of Disney.


Allegedly, there is an end goal here, we just don't know what...
 
Could people who don't like 1-A Marvel please list some of the arguments against it? Anti-feats and the like? I want to present both sides of the debate in my 1-A thread. I have some, but anything you think is important to include please let me know
 
Beyond the obvious sheer enormous inconsistency with how the characters are portrayed, is any of this usable? 🙏

Well, it's a bit rambly and not well cited, but it does bring up good points about many of the "1-A" characters not demonstrating R>F or qualitative superiority at all. I'll look at using some of the examples. They criticized infinite-dimensional Marvel as well, so I'll have to look more at that.
 
I want to look at High 1-B Marvel as well. From what I can tell, it seems like God/Hell Realms are Low 1-A due to transcending High 1-B space. However, I think the cosmology blog does a poor job at justifying High 1-B. I don't necessarily want to downgrade it though. Is that too much to have in one thread?
 
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