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Yet another issue with a Bleach Calc - Ichigo reflects all the blades from Senbonzakura

Rodriiogo

Rodriiogo

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The calculation in question is this one with the feat being that Ichigo swats away all the blades from Senbonzakura which has one hundred million blades.

The feat itself is fine and has no issue, however the issue is how the calculation is made, specifically in how it gets the amount of petals that each swing Ichigo can reflect/swat, with this being how it does it:
The sword is 1.18 meters.

Assuming the average width of Senbonzakura petals = average width of cherry blossom petals (0.001 meters).

Ichigo can cut 1.18 / 0.001 = 1180 petals per swing
The way it gets 1180 petals per swing is simply through the length of the sword. This is not true as a swing would not just swat away the amount that could fit in the length of the sword but all that could fit within the volume of the movement arc of the sword. Therefore the petals per swing should be much, MUCH higher.

I have done the recalculation and it has been accepted but the feat becomes so low it is basically irrelevant with only 794 swings being needed to swat that many petals (which isn't as absurd even logically considering the current calc makes him do 28248.59 swings all while Byakuya is staring doing nothing, basically blitzing him that many times) and the feat resulting in only Mach 4.21 (Supersonic+).

Therefore the calculation should be removed (as I don't think the replacement is high enough to be relevant for the verse page).
 
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If Byakuya had an attack speed stated or had one step from another speed statement then the feat woulda been peak mane 😭
 
Since the new calc has been accepted, replacing the old one seems fine.
 
P sure Bleach will be Subsonic all around by the end of the month lmao.
(It's funny to see Ichigo as being MFTL+ when no one else is)
 
The new calculation is assuming the petals are evenly divided when that's clearly not the case. It's also taking one of the swings and using it when the scans show various swings of different angles and sizes; Ichigo clearly isn't just doing full swings that utilize the entire length of the sword.
 
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Updated the calculation with volume used, not much changed, it's still only Mach 4.21 so the intent of the thread remains the same. (Still updated the OP to match it)

Crobatman44 said:
Huh,wonder what even happens to the Verse's speed scaling after this since im fairly certain it just outright collapses if this goes through.
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Well going through Ichigo's profiles I'd assume it'd be something like:
Pre-TS
Substitute Soul Reaper: At least Supersonic (Mach 1.5)
Soul Society Arc: At least Hypersonic (Mach 7.4)
Post-Bankai Training: At least Hypersonic (Mach 7.4), High Hypersonic+ with Bankai (Mach 37)
Post-Visored Training and Final Grimmjow Fight: At least Hypersonic (Mach 7.4), High Hypersonic+ with Bankai (Mach 37), Massively Hypersonic with Hollowfication (Mach 185)
Full Hollowfication: Massively Hypersonic (Mach 185), higher with Full Power (Mach 370)
Post-Dangai Training: Massively Hypersonic (Mach 370), likely Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 1707)

Post-TS
Fullbring: At least Massively Hypersonic (Mach 185)
Fullbring Zanpakuto: At least Massively Hypersonic (Mach 185), higher with Bankai (Mach 925)
True Zanpakuto: Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 1707), higher with Bankai (Mach 8535)
Merged Hollow Form: Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 8535), Sub-Relativistic with Bankai (Mach 42675)
Don't quote me on that though, I'm not sure about the in-verse chain-scaling with the multipliers and someone more knowledgeable could correct me here
 
Assuming each swing will be 120º, Ichigo's Blade Swing Area: 120/360 x π x (1.91176^2 - 0.65226^2) = 3.38180216844m^2 ; Using 7 milimeters, the volume is 0.02367261517m^3
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This assumption directly contradicts what has been shown, as I already said the swings aren't at the same angle or size. Ichigo isn't using the full length of the sword, nor the same angle in his swings.
So each swing that Ichigo does will swat away approx: 0.02367261517/1.8790651059284E-7 =~ 125981 blades per swing
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Another incorrect assumption: the petals are not evenly distributed.
Lynieryz said:
The new calculation is assuming the petals are evenly divided when that's clearly not the case. It's also taking one of the swings and using it when the scans show various swings of different angles and sizes; Ichigo clearly isn't just doing full swings that utilize the entire length of the sword.
Click to expand...
 
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Lynieryz said:
latest

This assumption directly contradicts what has been shown, as I already said the swings aren't at the same angle or size. Ichigo isn't using the full length of the sword, nor the same angle in his swings.

latest

Another incorrect assumption: the petals are not evenly distributed.
Click to expand...
Why did you post two default pictures?
 
Rodriiogo said:
Updated the calculation with volume used, not much changed, it's still only Mach 4.21 so the intent of the thread remains the same. (Still updated the OP to match it)


Well going through Ichigo's profiles I'd assume it'd be something like:
Pre-TS
Substitute Soul Reaper: At least Supersonic (Mach 1.5)
Soul Society Arc: At least Hypersonic (Mach 7.4)
Post-Bankai Training: At least Hypersonic (Mach 7.4), High Hypersonic+ with Bankai (Mach 37)
Post-Visored Training and Final Grimmjow Fight: At least Hypersonic (Mach 7.4), High Hypersonic+ with Bankai (Mach 37), Massively Hypersonic with Hollowfication (Mach 185)
Full Hollowfication: Massively Hypersonic (Mach 185), higher with Full Power (Mach 370)
Post-Dangai Training: Massively Hypersonic (Mach 370), likely Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 1707)

Post-TS
Fullbring: At least Massively Hypersonic (Mach 185)
Fullbring Zanpakuto: At least Massively Hypersonic (Mach 185), higher with Bankai (Mach 925)
True Zanpakuto: Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 1707), higher with Bankai (Mach 8535)
Merged Hollow Form: Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 8535), Sub-Relativistic with Bankai (Mach 42675)
Don't quote me on that though, I'm not sure about the in-verse chain-scaling with the multipliers and someone more knowledgeable could correct me here
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We went from the Biggest equalized speed merchants to...still the biggest equalized speed merchants.
I know basically every match uses equal speed but Bleach is by far the biggest exploiter of it among Shonen verses in this wiki.
Still,i don't have disagreements with the recalc in the end,i just hope the verse actually gets updated with this and the other changes at least instead of being left in akward in between limbo state of all the calcs and feats being like this while the profiles remain the exact same to their former selves.
 
Rodriiogo said:
Updated the calculation with volume used, not much changed, it's still only Mach 4.21 so the intent of the thread remains the same. (Still updated the OP to match it)


Well going through Ichigo's profiles I'd assume it'd be something like:
Pre-TS
Substitute Soul Reaper: At least Supersonic (Mach 1.5)
Soul Society Arc: At least Hypersonic (Mach 7.4)
Post-Bankai Training: At least Hypersonic (Mach 7.4), High Hypersonic+ with Bankai (Mach 37)
Post-Visored Training and Final Grimmjow Fight: At least Hypersonic (Mach 7.4), High Hypersonic+ with Bankai (Mach 37), Massively Hypersonic with Hollowfication (Mach 185)
Full Hollowfication: Massively Hypersonic (Mach 185), higher with Full Power (Mach 370)
Post-Dangai Training: Massively Hypersonic (Mach 370), likely Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 1707)

Post-TS
Fullbring: At least Massively Hypersonic (Mach 185)
Fullbring Zanpakuto: At least Massively Hypersonic (Mach 185), higher with Bankai (Mach 925)
True Zanpakuto: Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 1707), higher with Bankai (Mach 8535)
Merged Hollow Form: Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 8535), Sub-Relativistic with Bankai (Mach 42675)
Don't quote me on that though, I'm not sure about the in-verse chain-scaling with the multipliers and someone more knowledgeable could correct me here
Click to expand...
they cant beat Naruto and OP speed without speed equal bro
😭
 
It's kind of weird to assume that each swing moved the same amount is distance when the scene in the manga and anime show Ichigo using many different swings that move different distances (and Ichigo would have to turn his body to hit the petals on his left and the ones behind him).

Also, the volume of petals wasn't equally distributed, and (I'm not sure how to account for this, not that it probably matters very much) Byakuya was directing the petals to attack Ichigo, so they would be trying to move back towards Ichigo, filling in the space as Ichigo swings.
 
Lynieryz said:
Snip
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ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn said:
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To answer both:
  • For the volume being equally distributed or not is something we can't measure, as far as I know, we don't have any sort of image or statement on the distance between two petals/blades is, so anything would be too assumption-based to be accepted and would inflate the number to a higher degree. And it is in-fact not even supported as considering that the area of petals occupy is already 0.00023925m^2. A hundred million of them even if they were side by side with no gap between as the current calculation does would already cover 23925m^2 which is almost 6 ACRES worth of land (this is how big 6 acres worth of land is). This is already more than reasonable, if we assumed even a 1cm^2 gap between both would already inflate numbers of the area it covers to over 8 acres. This is nowhere near how much it is potrayed to cover in area so I think it is indeed more than fine to keep it as it is since it is impossible to be measured and way more consistent than any arbitrary number we make up. This is what the current calculation (not mine) also does and I don't see a reason to change it with some arbitrary number.
  • While the swings are of visible different angles and therefore different distances, we really, once again, can't measure it exactly. Even in the current calculation, Ichigo swings 794 times. We see 15 of those swings portrayed in the manga and it's not even counting how he is swinging his back and everything in an omnidirectional way. He has to swing from all sides 794 times, 120º is the best average we can use. This is also, once again, what even the current calculation does, there is no need to change it imo considering how 120º is already a good average for a feat like this.

---

Anyways it seems 3 CGMs already agreed, can the changes be applied and this closed or?
 
Cant we use the anime? The least it affirms is that Ichigo did not have to move his body. But i think we could also go frame by frame and just count the number of blurs present in each frame.
 
Rodriiogo said:
To answer both:
  • For the volume being equally distributed or not is something we can't measure, as far as I know, we don't have any sort of image or statement on the distance between two petals/blades is, so anything would be too assumption-based to be accepted and would inflate the number to a higher degree.
Click to expand...
That's fair.
Rodriiogo said:
  • And it is in-fact not even supported as considering that the area of petals occupy is already 0.00023925m^2. A hundred million of them even if they were side by side with no gap between as the current calculation does would already cover 23925m^2 which is almost 6 ACRES worth of land (this is how big 6 acres worth of land is). This is already more than reasonable, if we assumed even a 1cm^2 gap between both would already inflate numbers of the area it covers to over 8 acres. This is nowhere near how much it is potrayed to cover in area so I think it is indeed more than fine to keep it as it is since it is impossible to be measured and way more consistent than any arbitrary number we make up. This is what the current calculation (not mine) also does and I don't see a reason to change it with some arbitrary number.
Click to expand...
Why are you mentioning the area instead of the volume again?
Rodriiogo said:
  • While the swings are of visible different angles and therefore different distances, we really, once again, can't measure it exactly. Even in the current calculation, Ichigo swings 794 times. We see 15 of those swings portrayed in the manga and it's not even counting how he is swinging his back and everything in an omnidirectional way. He has to swing from all sides 794 times, 120º is the best average we can use. This is also, once again, what even the current calculation does, there is no need to change it imo considering how 120º is already a good average for a feat like this.
Click to expand...
Fair enough.
 
Rodriiogo said:
Updated the calculation with volume used, not much changed, it's still only Mach 4.21 so the intent of the thread remains the same. (Still updated the OP to match it)


Well going through Ichigo's profiles I'd assume it'd be something like:
Pre-TS
Substitute Soul Reaper: At least Supersonic (Mach 1.5)
Soul Society Arc: At least Hypersonic (Mach 7.4)
Post-Bankai Training: At least Hypersonic (Mach 7.4), High Hypersonic+ with Bankai (Mach 37)
Post-Visored Training and Final Grimmjow Fight: At least Hypersonic (Mach 7.4), High Hypersonic+ with Bankai (Mach 37), Massively Hypersonic with Hollowfication (Mach 185)
Full Hollowfication: Massively Hypersonic (Mach 185), higher with Full Power (Mach 370)
Post-Dangai Training: Massively Hypersonic (Mach 370), likely Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 1707)

Post-TS
Fullbring: At least Massively Hypersonic (Mach 185)
Fullbring Zanpakuto: At least Massively Hypersonic (Mach 185), higher with Bankai (Mach 925)
True Zanpakuto: Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 1707), higher with Bankai (Mach 8535)
Merged Hollow Form: Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 8535), Sub-Relativistic with Bankai (Mach 42675)
Don't quote me on that though, I'm not sure about the in-verse chain-scaling with the multipliers and someone more knowledgeable could correct me here
Click to expand...
Just a few small corrections I think. Final fight Grimmjow Ichigo should be Mach 370 with his Bankai+hollow mask, based on the fact he easily dispersed Grimmjow’s Gran Rey cero which is accepted as 10x due to being more powerful than a cero Oscuras which has been stated to be “an order of magnitude” stronger than a regular cero. Also both being stated to destroy Las Noches.

So that’d put FH Ichigo at “Mach 370, Mach 740 at full power.
FB: at least massively hypersonic(Mach 370)
FB zanpakuto: at least massively hypersonic(Mach 370) MHS+ with Bankai(Mach 1850)

Dangai Ichigo: at least MHS+(mach 1850)

True zanpakuto: at least MHS+(mach 1850) sub realistic with true Bankai (Mach 9250)
Merged Hollow form: Sub realistic(Mach 9250) sub realistic+ with Bankai(Mach 46,250)

Not a huge change, and there’s always the fact to look at that FB Bankai should likely get the 10x boost instead of the 5x due to his Bankai containing both Fullbring+Hollow powers and seems to give a boost equal to what his pre time skip Bankai+Hollow mask provided. As well as his true bankai and merged Hollow forms since those are boosts far beyond what his mask provided. So everything starting at FB Bankai and later would be double the values
 
SilentBob34 said:
Just a few small corrections I think. Final fight Grimmjow Ichigo should be Mach 370 with his Bankai+hollow mask, based on the fact he easily dispersed Grimmjow’s Gran Rey cero which is accepted as 10x due to being more powerful than a cero Oscuras which has been stated to be “an order of magnitude” stronger than a regular cero. Also both being stated to destroy Las Noches.

So that’d put FH Ichigo at “Mach 370, Mach 740 at full power.
FB: at least massively hypersonic(Mach 370)
FB zanpakuto: at least massively hypersonic(Mach 370) MHS+ with Bankai(Mach 1850)

Dangai Ichigo: at least MHS+(mach 1850)

True zanpakuto: at least MHS+(mach 1850) sub realistic with true Bankai (Mach 9250)
Merged Hollow form: Sub realistic(Mach 9250) sub realistic+ with Bankai(Mach 46,250)

Not a huge change, and there’s always the fact to look at that FB Bankai should likely get the 10x boost instead of the 5x due to his Bankai containing both Fullbring+Hollow powers and seems to give a boost equal to what his pre time skip Bankai+Hollow mask provided. As well as his true bankai and merged Hollow forms since those are boosts far beyond what his mask provided. So everything starting at FB Bankai and later would be double the values
Click to expand...
@Damage3245, what are your thoughts on this?
 
SilentBob34 said:
Just a few small corrections I think. Final fight Grimmjow Ichigo should be Mach 370 with his Bankai+hollow mask, based on the fact he easily dispersed Grimmjow’s Gran Rey cero which is accepted as 10x due to being more powerful than a cero Oscuras which has been stated to be “an order of magnitude” stronger than a regular cero. Also both being stated to destroy Las Noches.

So that’d put FH Ichigo at “Mach 370, Mach 740 at full power.
FB: at least massively hypersonic(Mach 370)
FB zanpakuto: at least massively hypersonic(Mach 370) MHS+ with Bankai(Mach 1850)

Dangai Ichigo: at least MHS+(mach 1850)

True zanpakuto: at least MHS+(mach 1850) sub realistic with true Bankai (Mach 9250)
Merged Hollow form: Sub realistic(Mach 9250) sub realistic+ with Bankai(Mach 46,250)

Not a huge change, and there’s always the fact to look at that FB Bankai should likely get the 10x boost instead of the 5x due to his Bankai containing both Fullbring+Hollow powers and seems to give a boost equal to what his pre time skip Bankai+Hollow mask provided. As well as his true bankai and merged Hollow forms since those are boosts far beyond what his mask provided. So everything starting at FB Bankai and later would be double the values
Click to expand...
Uh...im fairly certain a lot of those things aren't even a thing accepted in the profiles,you would at bare minimum need a separate CRT to get those accepted before they are implemented in the scaling chain.
I think the only thing that could change is if any of the resulting values end up bordering the tier above close enough that maybe upscaling would happen for another character but im fairly certain that would still require a separate thread.
 
Crobatman44 said:
Uh...im fairly certain a lot of those things aren't even a thing accepted in the profiles,you would at bare minimum need a separate CRT to get those accepted before they are implemented in the scaling chain.
I think the only thing that could change is if any of the resulting values end up bordering the tier above close enough that maybe upscaling would happen for another character but im fairly certain that would still require a separate thread.
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They are accepted, it’s just no one’s bothered to update the speed on the profiles since the AP revisions were done a few years ago

It’s why Grimmjow hollow mask fight Ichigo goes from 389 Teratons with his Bankai, to 3.89 petatons with his Hollow mask. Due to dispersing an attack that Grimmjow threw at him that was 10x stronger. And like I said, it’s already accepted that a Hollow Mask boosts all stats so it doesn’t make sense his speed only increased 5x, while his AP increased 10x. People just didn’t care enough about speed to revise it.(me included) lol
 
Crobatman44 said:
Uh...im fairly certain a lot of those things aren't even a thing accepted in the profiles,you would at bare minimum need a separate CRT to get those accepted before they are implemented in the scaling chain.
I think the only thing that could change is if any of the resulting values end up bordering the tier above close enough that maybe upscaling would happen for another character but im fairly certain that would still require a separate thread.
Click to expand...
Let me put it this way, the speed was updated back in 2021 with the then accepted calc. In 2024 the update to the AP, DB SS ect was accepted with the new multipliers and calcs. Speed was never revised based on any of those terms even though a big chunk involved Hollow mask Ichigo
 
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