Sorry, I would like to focus on the Arisen's skill level too, mainly as a swordsman because I can't stand when people see him as any other big brute gameplay mechanic guy who would get destroyed by others like Geralt, I wrote this elsewhere but reposting it here.
I'm not sure what this means for scaling but, here we go:
"If we remove their supernatural abilities and they were merely a peak human or average person, would they be extremely skilled?
To see their actual displayed skill-based moves, this is helpful:
Blocking, Perfect Blocking, and other Skill-Based Moves
If they had stats equalized against expert swordsmen like Jaime Lannister, Count Dooku, Paul Atreides, Zorro, Aragorn, Samurai Jack, or Guts, could they hold their own in a duel or even win?
I think we can look at stuff like the dodge, perfect block, the way they climb monsters, their stamina and how it goes up to deal with threats. Their sword skills, the things they fight (countless creatures, human sorcerers and swordsman, bandits) their shield bashes, being able to wrestle up close with enemies (button tapping or grappling.) I think it's safe to say they display a high level of skill.
Then we have to measure how they compare to other Arisen... Which is: They are better than all of them. We beat Daimon's first and second form, of which he'd been killing tons of Arisen for "a hundred lifetimes", we beat Grigori who went unkilled for at least a thousand years. We beat Savan in a direct duel (which if you're going Fighter or Warrior is a sword fight with Seneschal fuckery) who was in the position of Seneschal for "countless lifetimes". We beat the Ur-Dragon who is just a much more powerful Grigori, basically Grigori x20.
In contrast: Dragonforged and Sofiah lose/die to Grigori, hundreds, probably thousands of Arisen die to Daimon. Grigori himself lost to Savan and who knows who else lost to him. Hell, former Arisen even died in the Everfall and BBI. The Ur-Dragon if we wanna get head-canony... Probably killed and devoured at least 20 Arisen. Maybe killed more as they established as the first Dragon in existence.
Plus the fact they can't even block as a Warrior yet somehow in lore can survive the encounters must mean they're able to dodge before they're hit.
Yes I know "Dragon's Dogma is about Will, they would lose all their fights", and they wouldn't.... It's about Will but it's also about martial might. I'm sure the Dragonforged and Sofiah had "Will" against Grigori but they still lost to him. There's no way Dragonforged just gave up.
Sometimes Will isn't enough, if it was we'd have been able to crush Grigori from the beginning. We have had to train to fight all these beasts, we have the WILL to train enough to defeat them, not the immediate Will to beat them.
I'll grant you this, the Arisen always has help, and it's usually a requirement for him, and... Yes the Arisen can use all the classes, but he's usually depicted with a sword and shield across almost every official depiction of him, period. When you start the game before you get to choose your class, you start with a sword. On the cover of the games across basically every platform they use a sword, all depictions show him with a sword, it's absolutely his primary weapon.
As far as the Arisen having pawns, I think it's still meant to be a party adventuring and saving the world, not the pawns cleaning up while he sits on his ass.
Plus they are used to duels with humans and enemies that use swords and weapons, like they effortlessly defeat Julien, they deal with Bandits, Skeleton Knights and Skeleton Lords, Eliminators, Cyclops, Golden and Silver Knights, Living Armor, Corrupted Pawns, all opponents who use swords, melee weapons, or sword & shield, sometimes tons of them at once. Basically an army at the Duke's demesne (where the pawns can't even go so he did it alone.) Even the Cyclops and etc who use weapons which the Arisen has to block, dodge against. They beat Ser Berne effortlessly, they duel against Saurians, especially early on with Deep Trouble which practically proves the Arisen's skill, as the Saurians are way above their pay grade at that point.
Not to mention they literally go out of their way to fight and kill almost every threat you can think of, and their intelligence allows them to figure things like the secret augments that no other Arisen has thought of.
I would like to close this out by addressing arguments that may be made, such as the perfect block being a gameplay mechanic.
There are no lore contradictions to these moves working the way they do, and there's no reason to believe they couldn't be done in lore. It's merely the Arisen using a skilled technique that reflects an opponent's own force against them. The Dodge roll is just ... Well, a Dodge roll, people in real life can and have used them, I'm not sure about in combat but still.
As far as objectively analyzing the Arisen's skill, I would like to point out that Savan is basically a nigh-omnipotent God that has been around for probably thousands upon thousands of years. They likely possess superhuman senses or even a type of precognition, they also have their pawn who they likely have trained with while bored, I recognize this is headcanon, but... Being trapped-ish in the way that they are, alone in their realm, they don't have a lot to do. They likely have a clairvoyance and can likely see the Arisen's moves before they happen as well.
The Seneschal (Savan) is also the person that sustains the world, creates and sustains all life. They have seen everything live and die in a perfect, endless loop. They have likely seen every single swing, every muscle twitch, every reflex, every single combat maneuver of a sword, period, for countless lifetimes. They have almost certainly seen all of your combat, witnessed the Dragonforged's battle with Grigori, witnessed Julien, Ser Berne, and countless other warriors swing their swords, cast their spells, throw a punch, etc.
They live outside time, practically all of history is like a book or even a big picture to them, and yet we defeat them in a sword duel like equals. That's an insurmountable, exceptional display of skill that shouldn't even be possible, but we do it.
Then there's Daimon: The guy has been slaughtering Arisen from countless different worlds for a hundred lifetimes, they have likely seen every single skill, weapon, armor, and tactic you can possibly think of, then we not only beat him, we beat his second form which no one has ever seen before, not even Olra or Barroch.
Grigori had already fought the Dragonforged. The Dragonforged lost to Grigori, yet we defeat him. A Great Dragon that had been for over 1000 years.
Then the wildcard: Pawn knowledge... The pawns have to learn from the Arisen, they have to slaughter each individual enemy in the bestiary sometimes hundreds of times, and see countless different tactics done by the Arisen. They have also likely seen tons of different scrolls and studied them which allowed their pawn to achieve higher knowledge as well. They've heard their pawns shout the tactics to them hundreds of times despite the Arisen being the one that taught them. It should also be mentioned there is almost no scrolls in the game that offer level 3 knowledge, which means you have to get that on your own.
The Arisen is undeniably an absolute genius when it comes to strategies and tactics against both creatures and humans, it's not fair to discredit the Arisen's skill or say "we don't know" when we know that the pawn knowledge exists. They even can get full knowledge of the Seneschal themselves, as stated, the Seneschal can look at all of history like one big picture as they exist outside time. They can also get full knowledge on Daimon and his Awakened Form, as well as the Ur-Dragon which is the first Dragon in existence, and has been killing Arisen since the beginning of time.
I don't think we can stress enough how insanely ridiculous that is. Willpower can no longer be used as a justification for "all power, no skill", we get extensive knowledge of all these beings and figure out how to beat them definitively.
I think if forced to use a normal sword and shield they would be a perfectionist that only a few in fiction could actually beat if stats are totally equalized. Even if you measure him against other Arisen he defeats threats that have been killing Arisen for hundreds or thousands of years and has deep, extensive knowledge of every type of human enemy or creature possible.
Even movement wise, I'd say they look and appear far more skilled than someone like Geralt in swordsmanship:
Dragon's Maw, Perfect Block, Jumping, Dodge Rolls, Basic Swings for Warrior, Instant Reset, Masterful Kill, Hindsight Slash, Blink Strike, Blocking in general, Clairvoyance, Flight Response, Broad Cut, running around an enemy and jumping over an attack of theirs.
Not to insult Geralt of course, or start a massive debate, he has over a century of experience but in terms of both how the Arisen comes off and then defeating beings that have been fighting Arisen for thousands of years. Geralt usually wins because of his experience and skill over the decades and century he's been a Witcher, but he often doesn't fight beings or people that have been killing his kind for literal lifetimes. The Arisen has killed and defeated beings that have been killing only Arisen exclusively for thousands of years.
I wanna stress that the reason I brought up Geralt was not to throw him under the bus, it's just to show that the Arisen isn't like the Dovahkiin for example, where it's "whack whack whack" and where we don't even know the extent of how he fights. Rather he's so skilled in combat that he can defeat multiple beings that have been killing his kind for thousands of years, with most of them being former Arisen themselves therefore knowing the ins and outs of how an Arisen or pawn might fight.
This coupled with his extensive, deep tactical knowledge of all the countless creatures he fights including the Seneschal, Daimon, Grigori, Death, and the Ur-Dragon, as well as humanoid opponents that use swords, shields, bows, and daggers, some of which being Arisen themselves or high-level pawns.
Can you imagine the skill level needed to defeat an opponent that has been killing Arisen for thousands of years? Let-alone multiple opponents that have been killing Arisen for thousands of years? Every muscle twitch, every reflex, every class, every weapon and armor you can possibly think of, every combination of pawns, memorized by the DD: DA Arisen's opponents, yet he defeats them all the same.
Focusing on weak points and general tactics against that specific foe... Make him a nightmare in a duel for basically almost any swordsman in fiction, period.
Furthermore in terms of preparation for monsters or specific enemies, the Arisen is highly efficient. Due to his knowledge of weak points and tactics, he can almost always prepare something like an explosive or spell tome that the creature is weak to. This is no different than something like a Monster Hunter in Monster Hunter or Geralt of Rivia. They learn the ins and outs, what their weak points are, what they're weak TO, what types of concoctions they should prepare, etc.
Do they bring this specific cure for this affliction? As they know each monster can inflict different types of debilitations. They even know what cures magical debilitations. This is no different then the Monster Hunter preparing types of traps or attacking a specific weak point, or Geralt of Rivia deciding which sign to make use of or enhanced potion.
They are all on a similar level when it comes to knowledge and hunting monsters in general.
If the Arisen is going to fight an opponent he's going to study them down to the slightest movement, every reflex and twitch is going to be noticed.
His technical skill and way he studies his opponents is ridiculous.
Not even mentioning the vocations, assuming he masters all his sword-based classes, means he's used them all extensively in combat.
This applies to all their knowledge as a weapon-master too.
The Arisen, if we assume that he's used every weapon in the game, worn every clothing piece, or set of armor... He knows the ins and outs of each weapon he used, from the huge "Dragon's Bite" greatsword, to the small but deadly "Framae Blades" daggers, to the common "Iron Sword". Even Rusty Weapons or weapons slicked with oil he finds value and use in! Cutting ability, weight, different lengths of each weapon, properties behind each one, both normal and magical. Serrated edges and non-serrated, curved, straight, etc. He is undeniably exceptionally knowledgeable when it comes to the properties of the weapons themselves.
^ For the record the knowledge goes beyond JUST swords and encompasses Bows, Staves, Archistaves, Shields, Longbows Magick Shields, Maces, Hammers, and beyond.
It's important to note that these feats and statements above are not entirely based on Will or Willpower. Yes they matter in terms of power, but the Arisen has to LEARN each opponent, vocation, and technique before they can effectively use them. You do NOT "will" yourself to become a peerless master swordsman! You get there through rigorous training and fighting countless different opponents. If it were as easy as "willing" yourself to be more powerful, none of the fights would be a challenge, and you'd finish the fight in the prologue.
You have to get there, you do not start there. You EARN new techniques by earning discipline and what all this means in lore is that: Arisen trains, gets better as a swordsman, and learns new techniques.
The belief that his skill and technique, and even his overall power is based entirely on will is a myth. If it were true Daimon, the Ur-Dragon, Grigori, and all the enemies in the game wouldn't be threats at any point. But they are, and that's why the Arisen's skill and technique are his own.
All in all, very knowledgeable, tactical genius, extremely technical, and skilled beyond belief. The Arisen is nigh-unstoppable when it comes to blade-to-blade combat, whether they are at their normal power levels, or made a normal human akin to characters from Game of Thrones.
They go
above an elite, master-class level, in a tier with the greatest swordmen in all of fiction.
Their tier belongs to absolutely peerless, transcendent masters, like Benedict of Amber, Sasaki Kojiro (Record of Ragnarok), Musashi Miyamoto (Vagabond), etc.
I don't think a single swordsman across fiction, period, can beat him without significant challenge honestly."
The things to focus on are the tendency that the game kinda gravitates towards the Arisen being swordsman canonically, and the fact that the DD: DA Arisen has beaten opponents in battle that have been killing his kind for centuries or even thousands upon thousands of years.
I am very sorry to bump the thread using this, I just felt like this is the main place people visit to discuss versus match-ups and it's frustrating seeing them thrown under the bus when honestly they have basically peerless combat skills even if they were normal.
, I highly appreciate it. And again this is not for currently putting profiles up, just where I'm currently at as far as tiering speculation.
