Ser_Hakim_Dayne
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Are there any MFTL+ feats btw?
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Legend of Zelda General Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dalesean027
- Start date
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There's FTL feats, I have a few done, think the highest I have tho is like 7c.
Unless we want to say the beams used by the constructs in IW are SOL in which case you can get FTL+ (which is odd, because the weapon they use def has sol beams, but theyre hitscan, BUT that same thing SOMETIMES ISNT hitscan in flight sections and shoots beam balls instead, so it's weird, id be very careful with that).
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I've just finished Skyward Sword after 3 years and i was looking into it's profiles but are they outdated ?
Demise's weakened form is listed as Island level via scaling to True Master Sword Link but that Link is Large Country via scaling to FP Demise.
Demise's weakened form is listed as Island level via scaling to True Master Sword Link but that Link is Large Country via scaling to FP Demise.
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A lot are outdated. Extremely so even.
But there's also the question of WHAT'S outdated exactly and ngl I couldn't tell you beyond "a fuckton".
Except like Ganondorf, he's the least outdated, Dust been handling him decently well.
Dust_Collector
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Don't we have an outdated disclaimer that can put on the profiles or something? I swear I've seen a handful of profiles that with that
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Dust_Collector
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Ganondorf and TOTK Ganondorf are decent like Chariot said, missing some stuf, the former needs more touching up overall. ALTTP Link is mostly fine too. Master Sword and the Triforce are alright I guess, latter mostly needs stuff added by echoes of wisdom including a tier upgrade to 2-C, uh... can't think of anything else and even the the pages mentioned are still a bit outdated in some aspects.
Pretty much everything else is outdated pretty badly, random bosses are actually alright but all the big profiles need serious touching up. Four Swords Link has a separate key for the anniversary edition of the game for some reason (It doesn't change the plot at all, just adds a bonus mode) and only that key scales to Vaati while the key for the original version scales them to weaker version for some reason. Several profiles still use High 7-A ratings from a calc we stopped using years ago, somehow everyone and their mother is relativistic via scaling to Twilight Princess Link specifically, and then there's the issue of most of the profiles not having any scans for what little they do have on their profiles.
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Uhm. Less what isn't outdated and more to what extent.
Everything a lil outdated, but it can vary between "there's a better way to do this calc, it'll change values by 5%", or "this is complete bullshit and is wrong" to even "this mf is missing a literal laundry list of shit for some reason", or everything inbetween. So you're looking at "good guideline" to "ignore the profile entirely".
Ganon is the most accurate atm, followed by probably random bosses who only show up once and never again (less stuff to fix after all). I would have said TOTK Link was second but he's def missing a LOT and after IW it's way worse.
Totk Ganon would have been least outdated actually but IW made it so a million lil changes has to be added now so yeah.
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I understand. If i can, i'll help as i play through the games myself.
By the way, i've been checking the calcs of the verse and noticed maybe we can get class y giants cause it takes them around 20 secs to stop the moon ?
Qawsedf already found moons speed which is 106777.777778 m/s, acceleration (or deacceleration) is 106777.777778/20=5338.8888889 m/s^2
F=MA 7.34767309e+22*5338.8888889=3.922841e+26 kgf, 3.922841e+26/4=9.8071026e+25 kgf, class y.
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I already have like every ******* conceivable calc from OOT/MM done in a particularly anal way. Not really published yet given I'm waiting but they're like, done.
What DOES need help tho is shit like Phantom Hourglass, Spirit Tracks, Wind Waker bar 3 feats I did (lava, ice, and the big head lift and toss, good ass LS btw for the throw). I was thinking of doing Great Fish Isle but didn't know how to handle it, but as of writing this, I realized I have the map data, I can just shove it in blender and calc the fissures so...
Def need calcs for the bombs tho in that game, it can vfrag massive boulders, uh, Zelda 2, ALTTP outside of the storm clear, Minish, FSA, Oracle games, ALBW, Triforce Heroes, EoW got some slop too, uh...
Honestly if ya wanna start hitting the hand held games basically that'd be swell.
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At the risk of sounding like Sean... how's the progress going on what you're working on?
I remember last year you said you wanted to do a CTR for Halloween and in the end nothing happened (I might be mistaken).
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Unknown wanted a Raiden CRT and actually bothered to help with that, so I pushed that up and got that done first, so the Halloween plan kind fell through given that was in like September to Feb.
I'm doing the Zelda stuff like entirely on my own, while also helping people do like 5 other major projects
So I'm kind of spread thin and Zelda I'd rather take my time with instead of half assing it. Like if I sat down and just focused entirely on it, honestly prob finish it in 2 weeks~ time, but that ain't gonna happen, I do want it out before I'm put back in the MGS mines so idk, before August I would like. But def not this month or prob even next. I could throw up some calcs tho to make it seem like we're close tho
Dust_Collector
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Huh, didn't know until today that they announced the official english version of the masterworks a while ago. Neat, apparently it's 8 pages longer than the original JP release (Maybe some extra content added in not present in the original? afaik Creating a Champion was the exact same number of pages between languages).
But more importantly I wanted to just share this:
But more importantly I wanted to just share this:
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Absolutely wonderful masterpiece.
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Current Light arrows Scaling is messed up
As title says, Current Light arrows Scaling is messed up It basically revolves around huge assumptions, and the method is inconsistent and it isn't applied in the same fair way in-between OOT and MM. 1. Giant Link having the same exact strength of one of the Four Giants is a huge assumption...
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Honestly, it just comes off as borderline spite because his thread failed to go through and would rather make work for everyone else instead of just waiting for things to be done properly. Whether or not that's the case, I can't say, but given he's well aware a much larger one with this exact topic is being worked on, and literally everything in that CRT has been answered already to some degree given he already went off on it in a completely unrelated thread, but I suppose we shouldn't question it. I'd say ignore it, honestly with how much dishonest arguments he's making, that I know full well he knows already to not be the case, I'm thinking something a lil more drastic than just a closed CRT is required now as this is just ridiculous.
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Didn't know you got a psychiatrist degree. Far from that tho, I am not inclined to emotions, logical inconsistency + using image instead of proper arguments with people not sharing their legit opinion because they will follow everything some users say, yeah I am against that. Feel free to be drastic, hope everyone who sees the site from outside just noticed how biased and based on being well known this is all about. Even the previous thread was just closed when it didn't even reach a conclusion, Glass and staff say Ganon doesn't have triforce in final battle, while you all think he does but other reasons, but they still didn't express themselves based on the fair assumption of Ganon having it.
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Logical inconsistency and impatience are what drove you, pal. Let's not pretend otherwise.
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Could say so, but it's been years like this, what's wrong on changing the profiles and then if the famous CTR release gets hopefully released before GTA seven come out, we change it again? It will require several months at best anyway.
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That wouldn't even be the longest time I've seen something be on and off worked on. SMT was being worked on LONG before I joined the wiki for it's tier 1 shit.
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Ok, but why should I also trust the idea that this hyped CTR that will be released will be a bomb which I will necessarily agree on? Not a single hint, what it will be about, which supposed feat or scaling will be discussed was ever mentioned. The only concrete thing I see is a current bad scaling, with inconsistent method, being there since years, and it's not like we are waiting for a new game or anything of the like. I've seen verses like Black clover being on pause here, since they waited for the end of the manga, but right now what should I be waiting for?
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What's the consensus on Null in terms of where he stands in power? Lots of hype around him in Zelda circles, but he doesn't have a page here yet.
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Explicitly before ToP Ganondorf, so explicitly below like every single dude of relevance in the verse.
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Is he? I'm surprised by that. I'm curious what the basis is. I know Null is delighted by the power of the ToP when he receives it, but as its name suggests, the Triforce of Power amplifies power. The page has Statistics Amplification listed for it as well. Null would feel powerful holding it regardless of if he was inferior to ToP Ganondorf prior to gaining it. It's also worth noting that Null's goal is not to become powerful, but to unmake the world again permanently; this would require the full Triforce/Prime Energy, hence why his gloating after obtaining the ToP is about how he will use the Goddess' power against them to undo creation. There are many reasons to justify his reaction without him being weaker than ToP Ganondorf.
He's also able to effortlessly make an echo of Beast Ganon who implies familiarity with Link & Zelda, and seeing as Downfall is the same Ganon reviving continuously (and he revives again immediately after EoW), it's not as though it's a separate Ganon the echo is based on.
I know a lot of people are speculative of the 'Null sealing the Goddesses' stuff and say he was just sealing their temples/their connections with Hyrule, but Tri explicitly says he 'trapped the Goddesses in the Rifts'.
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I understand what you are saying, you want to imply that Null replicates Ganon's strength with at least the Triforce of Power, since when we see him in the Downfall Timeline in that form, he is usually in possession of the Triforce of Power or the complete Triforce. The fact that it is a power amplifier and not a precise, fixed boost is also a good argument, but you are forgetting that in Four Swords Adventures we can see Ganon in his blue form thanks to a simple Trident. Therefore, it is very likely that Echo Ganon is similar and does not actually scale from a Ganon with a Triforce piece. Precisely because of this, Null is very vague to scale in base form, but in the end, he is defeated by a fairly classic Link and Zelda, each with a piece of the Triforce, without any special or peculiar power or sword compared to the usual. There is a lot of hype because he is a primordial villain, but in terms of scaling, he does not seem that strong.
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Don’t we fight just a small piece of Null? The whole fight takes place inside his body, comparatively Zelda is smaller than a strand of his DNA
Dust_Collector
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Well the ToP doesn't amplify power in the sense of being a strict multiplier to the users base power, Ganondorf in Ocarina of Time for example is stated to have "tested the limits" of the Triforce of Power itself when transforming into his beast form. Echoes also seems to lean more on the ToP being more of a set power boost than anything else, given that when Null and Zelda are amped by their respective Triforce pieces they're roughly on the same level (Null is def stronger but it's not a big gap, she can hold her own) but base to base Null practically one shots her. Wouldn't make sense for them to be superior to ToP Ganondorf in base, only for the ToW to Zelda, someone on the level of Volvagia, to ToP empowered Null.
It's def the same Ganon from ALTTP, Zelda 1, etc, but the echo of Ganon is treated on a similar level to the echo of Volvagia who is fodder to ToP Ganondorf, which makes sense given that the timeframe for Null to (I'd assume) beat the real Ganon to be able to make an echo of him would be after he no longer had any Triforce pieces, the events before and during the game are after Yuga / Ganon got clapped losing the ToP and before Ganon regained it in Zelda 1.
Yeah it's weird how some people come to that conclusion despite the statement, it was agreed on this thread when the game came out that Null does legit have cracked sealing that can work on the goddesses.
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Not true. They all grant power. That piece in particular just happens to represent power.
But it isn't inherently more powerful by itself, we see Courage and Wisdom actively match it multiple times. See Zelda 1 with ToW vs. ToP. EoW itself with all 3 pieces being equal more or less. Albw where the ToC is a required amp to fight Yuganon. OOT where Ganon says he underestimated the power of the ToC as it helped defeated him, and far more.
No he wouldn't.
It has never once been said in a single game that the Triforce pieces work off the user's own innate strength as a multiplier
Like in OOT, it's described as Ganon having obtained the ToP, and ToP's power itself, enabled him to do the takeover, not his raw power got magnified. Null is legit the same way, he describes the energy and output contained in ToP as being what's impressive. If they only acted as an amplifier that whole framing wouldn't make sense because they wouldn't inherently have power to begin with. They basically be the Secret Stones.
I wouldn't call that worth noting, at least not for this topic. It has nothing to do with whether or not he is, or isn't, weaker than ToP Ganon. Ignoring how he actually did want more power given he says so himself like thrice, his end goal requiring the full Triforce has nothing to do with how strong his base state was so even under your argument they're an amplifier, it has nothing to do with whether or not he's stronger than ToP Ganon.
Beast Ganon without the ToP however, see the Oracle or FSA games, he isn't remotely on par power-wise with ToP Ganon Him creating an echo of a dude who's far, far, weaker than that same dude when he has the ToP has nothing to do with his strength as an echo or he himself.
Yeah that's hax, he's a lil smurf. He's got some wacky cracked out BFR and sealing, hell the Still World in general has a shit ton of passive hax to it that would maul most of the verse. But his actual biggaton numbers ain't all to high.
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Honestly let it be multiplier or static power boost it wouldn't change much anyway. Zeldas' share similiar potential as Hylia's bloodline, the echoes of wisdom one isn't any more special and Null still lost to her and Link, which have their classic amps more or less.
So even arguing about it would be pointless.
And yeah, the echo ganon it's a normal triforceless ganon, if I remember correctly Link without ToC could hold his own against him, so again... Consistent.
Null is hard to get ridden off, but stats wise he isn't very exceptional, and it's not even like he performed some crazy AP feat which we scale ToP Ganondorf to.
He has hax, that's it.
Yuganon stomps.
So even arguing about it would be pointless.
And yeah, the echo ganon it's a normal triforceless ganon, if I remember correctly Link without ToC could hold his own against him, so again... Consistent.
Null is hard to get ridden off, but stats wise he isn't very exceptional, and it's not even like he performed some crazy AP feat which we scale ToP Ganondorf to.
He has hax, that's it.
Yuganon stomps.
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So does anyone scale to Null and if so, is that gonna upgrade anyone to tier 2?
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He ain't tier 2? He's literally whatever Ganondorf with ToP is at best, otherwise he's like OoT Temple Boss lv, or well, between than and ToP.
His end goal involved tier 2 stuff but he never reached it (in which case yeah, Full Triforce and above dudes scale to that end goal, but Null himself doesn't).
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Null made it clear he needs the full triforce to do his endgoal, so at best that’s just another feat for the full triforce.
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I'll preface this by saying I'm not entirely familiar with some pre-established beliefs in Zelda scaling here, so I apologize if I make any mistakes/incorrect assumptions. I am quite new so I may act erroneously, though I've tried to read as much as I can to get up to speed.
To put that into perspective, it took Link and Zelda, the assistance of Tri (who received the power of approximately one thousand other members of their species, created by the Goddesses to oppose Null specifically) and the Tri Rod, the Sword + Bow + Bombs of Might created to counter Null and his creatures with the Might Crystals Null is especially weak to, and both the Triforce of Courage and Triforce of Wisdom to simply incapacitate Null long enough for his Triforce piece to be taken so the strongest power in the verse could wipe him from existence. I see why it's easy to be skeptical of Null but as far as I know the wiki follows the assumption that the protagonists are upgraded to the max, and with that in mind Null was defeated by A. a combination of roided-up powers designed specifically to counter him and B. the Triforce itself.
I am not necessarily saying Null is creating Ganon's power as it was when he had the Triforce/ToP. I am insinuating that, at minimum, Null can create a copy of a previously existing Ganon, specifically the one who appears in the Downfall Timeline, with little effort. FSA Ganon is one of the very few iterations to be explicitly a new reincarnation, while EoW Ganon is part of a timeline which explicitly has one Ganon continuously resurrecting, using the design and weaponry of the ALTTP Ganon. The Ganon in EoW recognizes Link and Zelda, even remarking that Link is always causing him trouble, claiming that 'this time' he will kill them both. This is despite the fact that Lueberry's diary heavily implies EoW Link has yet to meet Ganon prior to their encounter at the start of the game, and that nobody else in the world but Null knows who Ganon is, including Link and Zelda. Echo Ganon recognizes Link and Zelda because it is a Tecuum of the previous Ganon in the Downfall Timeline. In the Zelda timeline up to EoW, Beast Ganon has appeared in ALTTP, OoX, and ALBW; and as EoW Ganon is lucid & capable of speech, it is unlikely to be the Oracle games' version. As a result, the Echo Ganon either has to be based on Null's personal interpretation of Ganon (something inconsistent with all of the other Echoes, which are copies of existing people and things), or based on ALTTP/ALBW Ganon. Null is established by Minister Lefte as having a wealth of knowledge about Hyrule (like a hero and priestess arriving to stop those who pursue the Triforce) and Null's echo of Ganon is the only one to ever mention him by name, even including his title as the Demon King. Everyone else refers to him as 'blue monster' or 'blue guy', and Echoes itself gives no explanation for him. We have every reason to believe this Beast Ganon is, at minimum, a copy of one who has existed in the past. Given the page puts Beast Ganon at 6-C, that's a solid baseline for Null; though, given that the Echo Ganon is expendable to him, I'd wager Null has to be much stronger than that.
That is not entirely true. You're correct in that Link and Zelda defeat Null without any traditionally super powerful weapons like the Light Arrows, Master Sword, or Fierce Deity's Mask or what have you, but there are several external factors to Null's defeat, and in fact there are both 'special or peculiar powers' and a 'special or peculiar sword' used against him. Not only is Null facing two Triforce holders, he is facing Zelda with the abilities of Tri (Tri being a member of the species created specifically to counteract Null, who has throughout the entire game gained power from the rest of the species being freed) wielding the Tri Rod created by said Tri and Link, who is wielding the Lv 3. Might weaponry, which is stated by Lueberry to be effective against Null and his creatures due to the Might Crystals, which carry the property of especially harming Null and all Still World beings. Tri also states she senses a powerful energy coming from the Sword of Might, even in its weakened state, claiming it is more powerful than the large rifts, with it being enhanced and perfected after this. All of that is coupled with them also happening to have the other two pieces of the Triforce, and in Zelda's case the sanctions of the Golden Goddesses. Even then, they still do not kill Null themselves. The entire boss fight against Null culminates in him being incapacitated, giving Link and Zelda the chance to use all of the power they can muster to remove the Triforce of Power from him. They then assemble the Triforce and wipe him from existence with it.
To put that into perspective, it took Link and Zelda, the assistance of Tri (who received the power of approximately one thousand other members of their species, created by the Goddesses to oppose Null specifically) and the Tri Rod, the Sword + Bow + Bombs of Might created to counter Null and his creatures with the Might Crystals Null is especially weak to, and both the Triforce of Courage and Triforce of Wisdom to simply incapacitate Null long enough for his Triforce piece to be taken so the strongest power in the verse could wipe him from existence. I see why it's easy to be skeptical of Null but as far as I know the wiki follows the assumption that the protagonists are upgraded to the max, and with that in mind Null was defeated by A. a combination of roided-up powers designed specifically to counter him and B. the Triforce itself.
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Dust_Collector
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Base Nulls def much stronger than triforceless Ganon and Volvagia, but without other feats or anyone else for them to scale to, Null at a base level is either high end OOT temple boss tier or somewhere between that and ToP level like Chariot said.
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Kind of? Null's body appears to be gigantic, as Tri identifies a huge dark mass as Null. However, he can't actually absorb the Triforce of Power until he has Tekom enter his body, then appears in the smaller form to devour Tekom. It's possible he deliberately had Tekom come to him so Link and Zelda would follow and bring the Triforce to him, I suppose. It's not really explained. It's also possible that they are attacking Null's core, where he has to devour the ToP, and manifests himself there to do so. But as I said, it's not explained.
It is mostly accurate that 'the power of the Gods' is mentioned distinct from a mere multiplier of previous power, that's true. I did not intend to come off as though I'm saying it's like going Super Saiyan or something. With that said, it is more than just "ToP users new power = Triforce of Power strength" when you get the ToP; it very much matters who is using it. When Ganondorf obtains the Triforce of Power, he does not wield fire or other elements representative of Din; he uses the same dark magic he always used, just now to a much more potent extent. When Null obtains the Triforce of Power, he does not start using the same attacks as Ganon or Yuga do when they have the Triforce of Power; his existing abilities suddenly become far more powerful, threatening to devour Hyrule if not stopped - the literal first thing we see is him do is start expanding his rifts. Twilight Princess and especially OoT make a point of Ganon being a sorcerer well before the Triforce of Power. Frankly, even if you just take it as an additive (which I very much do not think it is solely that), Null would have every reason to be astonished and excited if he went from "extremely strong" to "extremely strong + even more extremely strong", in the same way Yuga is elated after receiving the Triforce of Wisdom despite already having the Triforce of Power.
Speaking of Yuga, he's responsible for probably some of the most 'this dude's power' quotes imaginable. He refers to Ganon as helping him attain true beauty, before choosing to merge with him after already having obtained the Triforce of Power from him, gleefully telling Ganon that they will become one and destroy all the world's ugliness. He explicitly says this as he already possesses the ToP, meaning there is no reason he'd say these things, let alone go on to fuse with Ganon if he stood to gain what is essentially a paltry powerup for doing so. Hilda goes on to state Yuga is siphoning Ganon's power. In contrast, he simply mocks Hilda before using her painting to steal her Triforce of Wisdom, and previously did the same with Zelda. The interpretation you're suggesting would imply Yuga Ganon isn't much stronger than Yuga would be if he had simply taken the Triforce of Power and not fused with Ganon at all, which is the opposite implication of ALBW's text. This also gets into the weeds of why I think Beast Ganon being significantly weaker than ToP Ganondorf is nonsense but that's a separate conversation
I really don't think so. For one, Tekom does not seem to be able to utilize or benefit from the ToP much at all. Where Null immediately begins gloating and delighting in his newfound power, Tekom is irritated at most and rushes to feed the ToP to Null. This is despite Tekom often speaking from Null's perspective and mirroring his desires, even claiming the Prime Energy "will be hers" in reference to Null having it. Zelda is also able to best Tekom in one on one combat, while Null requires the combined effort of her and Link along with a wish on the Triforce. What is the reasoning there if not either A. The disparity between Tekom and Null is so great that the Triforce of Power does not close the distance or B. The Triforce of Power is utilized better by one of greater power in the first place? As for Zelda suddenly matching Null, the protagonist growing stronger has been a major part of every Zelda game. Zelda and Tri specifically gain power through freeing the Tris, gaining more Echoes and closing the Rifts.
I think this is not correct. This isn't to say the ToC and ToW have no power, but in virtually every instance where the only factor is Triforce piece v. Triforce piece, the Triforce of Power comes out on top. I'd go as far as to say it typically comes out on top even when the other Triforce holders have an advantage. Yuga Ganon effortlessly turns Hilda into a painting while she holds the Triforce of Wisdom. The figurine for Ganondorf in Wind Waker states it is useless for Link (who has the Triforce of Courage by now) to face him alone, with Ganondorf later effortlessly stomping Link mere seconds after his Triforce of Courage resonates. OoT Ganondorf traps Princess Zelda in a crystal that Link is powerless to free her from while both of them possess the Triforce of Wisdom and Courage respectively, and Wind Waker Ganondorf similarly abducts Zelda and puts her in a deep sleep while she possesses the Triforce of Wisdom. Virtually every instance of the Triforce of Power being defeated can be ascribed to the wielder being weak to the sacred magic the hero (and often the princess/other compatriot assisting them) wields. OoT Ganon is faced by Link with the ToC and the Master Sword + Light Arrows and Princess Zelda with the ToW and all Seven Sages and can only be sealed, later escaping and causing the world to be flooded. TP Ganondorf is faced by Link with the ToC + Master Sword, Princess Zelda with the Light Arrows (with help from the Light Spirits) and ToW, and Midna with her Fused Shadow, with Ganondorf only dying when his Triforce of Power fades and he is struck in a pre-existing weak point. WW Ganon stomps Link and Zelda with their Triforce pieces and is just barely defeated when there are no Triforce pieces involved and two sources of sacred magic are being levied against him. The Triforce of Power is consistently portrayed as stronger, befitting its name.
- Zelda 1 is one of the few times we get a direct statement of Link utilizing the Triforce (or a piece of it)'s power, so yes. He also has Silver Arrows, and without them he physically cannot kill Ganon. Like almost every other battle with Ganon(dorf), Link threads the needle with sacred weaponry. Ganon with the ToP alone would have the upper hand if not for Link having both a Triforce piece of his own and a 'Arrow That Specifically Kills Ganon' at his disposal.
- The pieces are not equal in EoW; Link & Zelda are using weaponry designed to harm Null, and even then they have to work in tandem to defeat him with both of their Triforce pieces, entering his body to seize the Triforce from him.
- The ALBW situation is complicated. I could see it being straightforward, where Link actually is just straight up being amped by the Triforce of Courage. However, Princess Zelda claims the Bow of Light uses the light from the Triforce, which could very well be drawing power from the Triforce of Courage, and is necessary to defeat Yuga Ganon. It is very uncommon for any kind of power to be directly stated as from the Triforce unless it is directly derived of it; and unlike a straight up stat amp, there's a direct statement implying it. Complicating matters more, the one who sends Link on the quest to get the Triforce of Courage by assembling the Sages with the alleged goal of defeating Yuga is Hilda. Who is infamously lying out of her ass, and was working with Yuga the whole time to steal the ToC from Link. She in fact bars Link from facing Yuga Ganon until he has the Triforce of Courage, and while the Sages also say he needs the ToC to beat him, the one to first bring up the idea is Hilda. Who says the Sages know any better than Link does when the game's plot is about Hilda manipulating Link into getting the Triforce of Courage for her? We know the Sages are aware of Link's quest and goal per their dialogue; they even mention being in another world. They believe what Link believes, which is that the ToC is needed to beat Yuga (told to him by Hilda).
- The point of that scene in Ocarina of Time is that Ganondorf is arrogant and trying to reason his way out of admitting his own faults. At several different points in the game, he underestimates Link and insists he is no threat to him, and is ultimately proved wrong. You are not meant to take Ganondorf as correct when he dismisses Link's power as solely from the Triforce of Courage. It is as usable a statement as Ganondorf bitterly claiming Link only has 'some slight skill' after beating Phantom Ganon. And even if you are to take that ToC statement at face value... Ganondorf comes out of these events sealed but alive and retaining his Triforce piece despite being attacked by Link and Zelda with their corresponding pieces and the help of the Sages. It is not great evidence of the ToP being equal to the others.
Null wants 'everything'. That is, to consume the world. He says as much, hence why he wants the Prime Energy. His rifts increase in size, and Tri implies they will consume everything if he is not stopped when he gets the ToP. Absolutely none of his dialogue would cease to make sense assuming he happens to be superior to ToP Ganondorf. It's not as though the Triforce just sets your power to a certain level. It's, at the bare minimum, additive. As mentioned prior, Yuga Ganon is delighted to receive the Triforce of Wisdom and powers up further after doing so. Does that imply Yuga Ganon was weaker than Zelda with the Triforce of Wisdom prior to gaining it? No, obviously not at all. He was strong before, and he got stronger.
To be honest, I think I just have to question the logic of the Triforce of Wisdom & Courage 'amp' reasoning, especially under the idea that it just sets the wielder to a specific power level instead of adding onto, multiplying, or otherwise enhancing the power they have at present. I'll agree that sometimes the ToC and ToW power the users up, sure, but it happening every time Link and Zelda wielding those pieces are involved is highly unbelievable. The Triforce page on the page we have here says it varies, and that sometimes the pieces grant no power at all; I'm not sure if those are outdated, or if the people active in this thread just disagree with wiki consensus, but I would personally say the page is likely more correct. There's quite a few instances of Triforce holders either losing to those with no Triforce pieces or being drastically weaker than others with the same piece.
- Yuga effortlessly turns Zelda, with her Triforce of Wisdom, into a painting.
- Zant stomps Link (who has the Triforce of Courage and has already had it trigger earlier in the story), the light spirit Lanayru, and Midna back-to-back, cursing Link to remain as a wolf until he obtains the Master Sword.
- Zant forces Princess Zelda to surrender under threat of death, both for her and her people. She explicitly possesses the Triforce of Wisdom, and is aware she has it. Zant has a fraction of borrowed power from Ganondorf, but does not himself possess any Triforce piece.
- Despite this, Midna (who was given the same Triforce piece) would later one-shot Zant, claiming it was only a fraction of her power.
- Link is able to benefit directly from the power of the Triforce of Wisdom in Zelda 1. Yuga Ganon is directly shown growing in power as a result of gaining it. Midna is able to persist in the light world and seemingly kill Zant in part due to the Triforce of Wisdom. Meanwhile, A Link Between Worlds Zelda, Wind Waker Zelda, and Twilight Princess Zelda are never depicted as wielding their piece in a significant way, with ALBW and TP Zelda being stomped by magic users with no Triforce pieces to speak of.
- In Echoes of Wisdom, Tri states the Prime Energy/Triforce is potent in each piece right after mentioning that the Prime Energy resides in Link and Zelda before facing Null, and Link & Zelda are able to put up much more of a fight against Null than they were prior. This is in spite of Wind Waker Link, Twilight Princess Link, and the aforementioned Princess Zeldas gaining no tangible amp in power from their Triforce pieces.
Also, EoW Zelda is absolutely special... ? The vast majority of Zeldas don't do much of anything by comparison. She's also the only one with solid evidence of the ToW amping her.
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I honestly think there should probably be a conversation about Beast Ganon at some point. Yuga chose to fuse with him, gleefully so, after he had already gained the Triforce of Power. The game makes a point to portray Yuga fusing with the Demon King as a significant event, yet supposing the scaling here is accurate, it would be the equivalent of him fusing with Morpha. Historia also portrays it as a permanent transformation derived of the entire Triforce, like how in OoT's non-Downfall ending the Ganon transformation is the result of pushing the ToP to its limits.
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Yeah but the think is, as I said, even though it is a new incarnation of Ganon the one from FSA, such form was easily obtained by the power of a trident, and there is a clear scaling there. So, which tier do you think that Ganon belongs to in general? What's your implication and how would you justify an higher tier? Which feat or scaling are you suggesting for Null and triforceless blue Ganon? You argued a lot of things, and I personally overall agree with the triforce pieces amp arguments personally (but still to me this doesn't somehow prove EoW Link with his ToC is stronger than other incarnations), but I am not getting where you are going with Null and beast Ganon.
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But we know that's not what happened in this case. Echoes of Wisdom is in the Downfall Timeline, prior to Zelda 1, meaning there is only one Ganon. This is the same Ganon who Yuga fused with, who Link faces in A Link to the Past, and who Ganondorf transformed into at the end of Ocarina of Time after defeating the Hero of Time. It's not as though he reverted to Ganondorf and used some new weaker item to become a beast again.
I did go off track a little bit focusing on Beast Ganon, since my original intention in bringing him up was just to establish a baseline for Null. But if we're on the topic, I don't think it would be unreasonable to say Beast Ganon should be inherently stronger than ToP Ganon, or at the least comparable. The wiki treats Beast Ganon as though it is a form of Ganondorf that is weaker than him with the ToP but stronger than base, but Hyrule Historia treats it far differently:
Hyrule Historia defines the event like this.
- Ganon steals the Triforce of Wisdom and Triforce of Courage from Zelda and Link
- Ganon obtains his "true power" and subsequently transforms
- Ganon becomes 'the Demon King', the bestial form seen in ALTTP onwards
- This transformation is permanent, explaining why Ganon is never seen in human form again after this point. This is despite the fact that OoT Ganon is turned back into Ganondorf when the Seven Sages seal him, and no such thing happens when ALTTP Ganon is sealed.
A Link Between Worlds doubles down on this heavily. The same idea of "transforming into the Demon King" is mentioned multiple times, and it is also established that he used the Triforce to do this:
What's more is that while much of this manual has been recontextualized, even the original A Link to the Past manual is very blatant about Ganon gaining permanent power from his use of the Triforce. There is no medium that portrays ALTTP Ganon as only being far more powerful than his previous self when he is physically using the Triforce.
Now, am I saying this form of Ganon is equal to the full Triforce, even when he doesn't have it in his possession? No, of course not. I am saying that ALTTP/ALBW/EoW/LoZ1 Beast Ganon's base form is significantly stronger than it is currently portrayed as. In addition to Hyrule Historia claiming it to be his 'true power', A Link Between Worlds corroborating Historia's statements directly, and the proven permanence of the form's power, Ganon has had far more measures taken to defeat him in this state.
- ALTTP Ganon is defeated by the Master Sword (which was enhanced significantly in power) and the Silver Arrows, which are some of the most powerful sacred weaponry ever used against him. The Silver Arrows in LoZ1 are so powerful, even if you assume Beast Ganon is only 'stronger than Ganondorf but weaker than ToP Ganondorf', the Silver Arrows still are the only reason a Link with no Master Sword, Sage assistance, Light Arrows, or any other sacred/unique items bar the Triforce of Wisdom can defeat a form of Ganon who is stronger than WW, TP, and OoT Ganondorf with the ToP, all of whom required the Master Sword, Light Arrows, significant outside help and other Triforce holders to defeat. OoT Ganon is drastically weaker in base than LoZ1 Ganon is (without the ToP), and both of them possess the Triforce of Power, making LoZ1 Ganon far beyond him. Even with the Triforce of Wisdom, Link could never defeat LoZ1 Ganon without the Silver Arrows. The Silver Arrows are on a completely different level, and ALTTP Ganon was up against both that and a powered up Master Sword.
- ALBW Ganon is defeated by an upgraded Master Sword, a Bow of Light drawing power directly from the Triforce, his own magic being reflected back at him, and seemingly the Triforce of Courage itself. This is one of the few games with plausible statements of a non-ToP Triforce amp, and even independent of that the Bow of Light is necessary to defeat him & is stated as using the power of the Triforce. Whether this is some connection to the full artifact or drawing from Link's Triforce of Courage is unknown, but it is an exceedingly strong weapon in either scenario.
- LoZ1 Ganon, as mentioned prior, is defeated by the Triforce of Wisdom and the Silver Arrows. This is also one of the few games to heavily imply the Triforce of Wisdom is physically assisting Link, and the Silver Arrows are, as established, exceptionally strong.
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I got what you mean, but the fact that it is the same incarnation and that he still has the beast form it doesn't mean that it has the same power ToP one or full triforce one, it could have some residual power on par with the trident from FSA, which would only scale him above Vaati who doesn't scale that high.
But I guess you could argue that FSA trident grants Ganon power comparable to residual triforce and makes him above ToP Ganondorf's humanoid form, but I am skeptical about how could residual power grant him more than the ToP even in base form so nah.
I don't know if you have read my previous thread about ALTTP, but I think that If I keep talking about it I might get some warn, so all I am gonna say is that alttp Link currently being below OOT one in the wiki is kind of anti-lore to me. At very least that.
And that the manual quote you posted it's a minstraslation, so be careful on that.
| そこで、ハイラル人は神のお告げで、トライフォースをかどわかす魔を撃退する、退魔の剣を造りました。 | soko de, HAIRARUjin wa kami no otsuge de, TORAIFO-SU o kadowakasu ma o gekitai suru, taima no ken o tsugerimashita. | Accordingly, to repel an evil "kidnapping" of the Triforce, Hyrule's people were informed by a divine oracle to make an "expel-evil" sword. | For that reason, the people of Hyrule were told by the gods to make something that would repulse any evil that may kidnap the Triforce: the blade of evil's bane. |
about the rest, I do agree with silver arrows scaling way higher than the site currently does alongside golden master sword being super powerful, but here as you can check by deleted thread they threat golden MS as below single piece of ToC.
And silver arrows mostly as hax that damages soul, when the games make it clear it has strong sacred power as well which would mean higher AP and power because of UES.
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Well, that's what all the 'here's why I think Beast Ganon is cracked' stuff is for. He doesn't need to have the Triforce; it is made clear he already transformed using the Triforce's power, and keeps that power for the whole timeline. That's why OoT Ganon's temporary transformation is reverted when he's sealed, while ALTTP Ganon became the Demon King in OoT and is still the same way thousands of years later.
People think it's either "ALTTP Ganon is using the full Triforce to amp himself constantly" or "ALTTP Ganon is Volvagia tier" but the answer is neither. He already made his wish and is hoarding it. This is why he doesn't use the Triforce to return to the Light World, and makes no reference to using the Triforce again; rather, he just says he will never give Link it. He had already obtained the power from the Triforce when he transformed in Ocarina of Time and wished to conquer the world (which transformed the Sacred Realm into the Dark World). That doesn't necessarily make him Triforce tier, but it does mean he was both permanently powered up and is not actively using the Triforce during ALTTP.
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