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Pokemon Discussion Thread - Red & Blue arc

Question about Ditto.

If I'm reading his profile right, the high-end of his mimicry is Mew's 5-B ?
  • While inside the game it can transform into any Pokémon and copy exactly the stats, powers, attacks and appearance except the HP of the opponent, it is argued that Ditto rarely transforms into an opponent weaker than itself in combat. It is suggested that thread starters state the starting level/tier of Ditto. For reference, the current tier of Pikachu (one of the most notable starter Pokémon) is at most Low 7-B. If the thread starter wishes to set the floor tier of Ditto, the thread starter should state that in the starting thread and Pikachu will be the floor tier. However, the ceiling tier of Ditto should limit to the tier of Mew is 5-B.
Seemingly so.
 
I have been trying to work out some of the statistics for the various legendary Pokemon. Most have a certain baseline within their species but have their high ends. We also have to remember that not all scaling is acceptable and lots of fights can be interpreted as outliers. Articuno and Regis in Journeys would probably be outliers since Ash has quite literally beaten them before when he was way weaker and they were trained.

It was accepted in the unsplit that many of the legendaries would have a Varies rating based on the fact that they're species and can be stronger or weaker by virtue of that.

I wi say, it will take time, so don't do anything drastic. This kind of revision needs to be done bit by bit so as to not rip the whole thread of scaling to pieces and forget things that are straight up obvious.
I feel like this should be its own thread ngl. Every Pokemon is a species, and if there is multiple universes/dimensions.
Cases like Zeraora (From M21 ‘The Power of Us’) losing to two random hunters should have a different rating then Dia’s Zeraora who is seen fighting Guzzlord. [You can also say it just for Plot]
There’s a lot of cases like this in the series.
 
I feel like this should be its own thread ngl. Every Pokemon is a species, and if there is multiple universes/dimensions.
Cases like Zeraora (From M21 ‘The Power of Us’) losing to two random hunters should have a different rating then Dia’s Zeraora who is seen fighting Guzzlord. [You can also say it just for Plot]
There’s a lot of cases like this in the series.
I'm trying to work this out but it's gonna take time and with the speed at which Pokemon CRTs have been going its gonna take a while.
 
Pretty sure he only had Primeape for 1 episode. Pidgeot was released but came back in Journeys.
The Gen 2 lads evolved after the Johto stuff, but it's prob fine.
 
Pretty sure he only had Primeape for 1 episode.
In opening 15 (Unova), Primeape appears in Professor Oak's lab, however it does not appear in the final Unova episode or in any of Journeys (most likely a mistake, but I've heard that many seem to have taken it as Ash returning for Primeape off-screen).
I assume the error came from there.
 
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alright so I want to start off by saying that not all X type moves are the same

Solar beam is explicitly light.

Razor leaf is explicitly leaves.

light=/=leaves

Therefore, just because two moves have the same type does not mean they originate from the same source
You do realise pokemon are manipulating the qi in these things right ?
 
So...a move can boost grass type move power. ok. and this proves all grass type moves are the same because????? a magic spell can boost the power of all spells of a certain category without neccestitating that all those boosted spells are of the same source. hell, grassy terrain only affects damage dealing grass type moves iirc. and there is still: DIFFERENT MOVES BEING DESCRIBED AS DOING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS!

Oh and this proves Pokemon manipulate Qi because????
 
I don't really see how it relates?
I think they are trying to argue that: grassy terrain boosts all grass type moves, therefore all grass type moves are made of the same energy (<- this logic doesn't work btw)
 
Pokemon moves are powered by Type Energy however they aren't all made of type energy. Hyper beam would be type energy, but Solar Beam is explicitly light and stuff like Flamethrower is fire, Lava Plume is clearly Lava and stuff like Fling uses items you have. Every move has an underlying type energy but the actual material used differs wildly, like the fact that Focus Blast and Aura Sphere would use two completely different energies.
 
Pokemon moves are powered by Type Energy however they aren't all made of type energy. Hyper beam would be type energy, but Solar Beam is explicitly light and stuff like Flamethrower is fire, Lava Plume is clearly Lava and stuff like Fling uses items you have. Every move has an underlying type energy but the actual material used differs wildly, like the fact that Focus Blast and Aura Sphere would use two completely different energies.
Focus blast is not really different from aura sphere tho
In fact aure i say sphere is superior version of focus blast due the fact it never miss in game.
iirc Qi isn't a thing in Pokemon btw.
It is tho that pretty much why battles exist in pokemon
 
Focus blast is not really different from aura sphere tho
It is. Different power, different accuracy, hell the colors r different sometimes depending on the games.

It is tho that pretty much why battles exist in pokemon
No, battles exist in pokemon because that's the whole plot of the games. Give me a single statement that "Qi" exists in Pokemon.
 
It is. Different power, different accuracy, hell the colors r different sometimes depending on the games.

Of course they are ? One is literally less trained version of the other like the fact never miss is the reason for that.

No, battles exist in pokemon because that's the whole plot of the games. Give me a single statement that "Qi" exists in Pokemon.
Qi literally connected with martial arts

We literally have trainers who theme is martial arts
 
Pokemon moves are powered by Type Energy however they aren't all made of type energy. Hyper beam would be type energy, but Solar Beam is explicitly light and stuff like Flamethrower is fire, Lava Plume is clearly Lava and stuff like Fling uses items you have. Every move has an underlying type energy but the actual material used differs wildly, like the fact that Focus Blast and Aura Sphere would use two completely different energies.
Isn't there also something like Infinity Energy spoken of somewhere?
 
Focus blast is not really different from aura sphere tho
In fact aure i say sphere is superior version of focus blast due the fact it never miss in game.

It is tho that pretty much why battles exist in pokemon
Focus Blast (Japanese: きあいだま Fighting Spirit Bullet) ('Kiaidama")

SMUSUMPE
SwShBDSPLA
SV
The user heightens its mental focus and unleashes its power. This may also lower the target's Sp. Def stat.
ZAThe user attacks by heightening its mental focus to unleash its power. This may also lower targets' Sp. Def stats.

Aura Sphere (Japanese: はどうだん Wave Bomb) (Hadōdan)

SVThe user lets loose a pulse of aura power from deep within its body at the target. This attack never misses.
ZAThe user attacks by letting loose a pulse of aura power from within its body.

Trivia:
  • Aura Sphere bears resemblances both in visuals and in its Japanese name (はどうだん Hadōdan) to the Hadouken attack in the Street Fighter video game series.
(Considering the name includes "wave" which comes up in translations of some such moves, including, infamously, the Kamehameha, IIRC, thought that may be worth mentioning.)

Both are unleashing/letting loose power, but one involves mental focus while the other involves aura power, & their names arguably give some more info.
 
It might not be the kind of life energy of interest here, but I'm reminded of Dratini's entries:

SilverThis Pokémon is full of life energy. It continually sheds its skin and grows steadily larger.
EmeraldA Dratini continually molts and sloughs off its old skin. It does so because the life energy within its body steadily builds to reach uncontrollable levels.
FireRedEven the young can exceed 6.5 feet in length. It grows larger by repeatedly shedding skin.
LeafGreenLong considered a mythical Pokémon until recently, when a small colony was found living underwater.
YellowThe existence of this mythical Pokémon was only recently confirmed by a fisherman who caught one.
MoonAfter a 10-hour struggle, a fisherman was able to pull one up and confirm its existence.
Ultra SunIt's still weak, so it lurks on the floor of bodies of water, eating whatever food sinks down and living a quiet life.
Ultra MoonIt sheds its skin—almost on a daily basis—and grows larger. Its skin is soft just after it's been shed.
SwordDratini dwells near bodies of rapidly flowing water, such as the plunge pools of waterfalls. As it grows, Dratini will shed its skin many times.
VioletIt is born large to start with. It repeatedly sheds its skin as it steadily grows longer.
Legends: Z-AThis Pokémon is full of life energy. It continually sheds its skin and grows steadily larger.

Some interesting perspective, might be neat as a benchmark for first stage Pokemon stamina. Probably upper so, since Dratini is noted as being "full of life energy" which builds.

Notably, the FireRed entry's original measurement, being in metric, is 2 meters, but Dratini's Pokedex entry size is 1.8 meters. So are those caught in games without size variance just small &/or weak or something? Game mechanics?

The fact that Dratini sheds & grows as its life energy builds suggests a correlation of size & strength in the species. A shame the size of the 10-hour fishing struggle one was not noted, then. Ultra Sun calling it weak is probably in relation to the rest of its evolutionary line.
 
why exactly are we cross scaling between: the mainline games, anime, and adventures manga?
 
why exactly are we cross scaling between: the mainline games, anime, and adventures manga?
because they are intended to be a 'setting'. Not to mention there are several interviews with the makers of the games that suggest that the anime and manga worlds are closer to the vision of what the games are supposed to show. The anime is compared to a parallel universe to the game world too and parallel universes in Pokemon have so far not shown any difference in scaling at all. Finally there's the fact that pokedex entries are for the most part consistent across all forms of media with at most minor differences in the first season of the anime (cause nothing was consistent in the first season).

The only ones that could have a varying power level are some of the legendaries which I am trying to work out but because of exam season and slow rate of revisions, it's taking time.
 
Not to mention there are several interviews with the makers of the games that suggest that the anime and manga worlds are closer to the vision of what the games are supposed to show.
Can I get the exact quotes and who said quotes are from?
The anime is compared to a parallel universe to the game world too
How so?
and parallel universes in Pokemon have so far not shown any difference in scaling at all.
Well different continuities often contradict each other in ways that could impact scaling
Finally there's the fact that pokedex entries are for the most part consistent across all forms of media with at most minor differences in the first season of the anime (cause nothing was consistent in the first season).
That's true but that isn't neccesarily evidence that these different continuities are canon to each other (unless I am misunderstanding)
The only ones that could have a varying power level are some of the legendaries which I am trying to work out but because of exam season and slow rate of revisions, it's taking time.
I wish you the best of luck on your exams
 
Can I get the exact quotes and who said quotes are from?
this blog was used to refute the old canon split blog, it has quotes and links to the sources as well.
They're basically the same 'place' and Masuda says calling them a parallel world would be basically accurate
Well different continuities often contradict each other in ways that could impact scaling
If there's a clear contradiction, we account for that, that's what the canon heirarchy exists for. If there's something that a pokemon does that it shouldn't be able to do, we don't use it. Like we don't assume Sunny Day is 4-C for seemingly moving the sun in the manga considering it fits neither the scaling nor the other canons.
That's true but that isn't neccesarily evidence that these different continuities are canon to each other (unless I am misunderstanding)
This is evidence for interscaling. Like the canon is generally not that greatly questioned, the pokemon world is meant to be a setting with at most some minor differences. Masuda himself points out a difference like the Pokemon Centers working a bit differently in the anime and games.
The Pokedex entries being the same, however, is very important as it means that research that has been made and corroborated by genius scientists matches across different timelines, suggesting that the Pokemon aren't that much different. Of course, there will be exceptions like some of the legendaries, but I am working on the rescaling of some of them.
Last time the canon split was happening staff agreed less with the fact that they are separate canons, the issue was more that we wouldn't scale, say, Kryptonians from one timeline to Kryptonians from another in DC. The fact that the dex entries match word for word suggests that the mons aren't supposed to be different, and the fact that different timelines don't boost or lower the power of the pokemon (like the countless dimensions of Ultra Space or the parallel world in SM you go to) supports that idea.
I wish you the best of luck on your exams
Thank you. Technically I finished my final exam but I still have my thesis I need to finish.
 
why exactly are we cross scaling between: the mainline games, anime, and adventures manga?
From what i've gathered, its just easier for them to composite. Even though every other verse with the amount of supporters/popularity Pokemon has dont even do this
 
From what i've gathered, its just easier for them to composite. Even though every other verse with the amount of supporters/popularity Pokemon has dont even do this
me-when-i-spread-misinformation-v0-vuv4zlqz8v0f1.png
 
You've admitted countlessly that its just too hard to scale Pokemon separately from games (because obviously they NEED to be FTL for the agenda despite the games apparently not having the feats you need), and ergo you gotta go off vague connections and references that are 10x outweighed by all the blatant evidence and showings that the Anime, Games, Manga etc take place in separate continuities and have clear power/scaling differences for the sake of their mediums

For years you all (and still do) went off a Pokemon Go default animation calc. Just let the agenda go
 
You've admitted countlessly that its just too hard to scale Pokemon separately from games (because obviously they NEED to be FTL for the agenda despite the games apparently not having the feats you need)
It is easier to scale them as we do but I've never said scaling them that way is wrong. I ain't gonna argue with you again about this, we've gone over everything and you've just stubbornly repeated the same things again and again without bothering to understand why using just the games is wrong and detrimental to scaling. To you it's "they're doing this because its the easy way out and agenda", to me and others it's "separating the games from media literally stated to represent and compliment them would be detrimental to the scaling".
, and ergo you gotta go off vague connections and references that are 10x outweighed by all the blatant evidence and showings that the Anime, Games, Manga etc take place in separate continuities and have clear power/scaling differences for the sake of their mediums
I am not gonna entertain this. We've gone over this a million times. Anything you say you'll dismiss it as "references" when there's clear evidence that the characters from the anime literally appear in the games as intended. I've sent you the canon unsplit thread before and it had the blogs with all the evidence that fully counters it and countered it back when the canon was split. Considering you're still saying the same exact talking points, it's clear that you didn't read this or did read it and decided to ignore that fact that the game maker literally states that they are parallel universes in the same setting, with also official statements that the game makers control what is allowed and what isn't allowed within the world.
For years you all (and still do) went off a Pokemon Go default animation calc. Just let the agenda go
Agenda this, agenda that, how about this, you're the one trying to push the agenda of the canon split. I mean, I am not the one going of purely subjective statements and the one ignoring evidence. I ain't the one who clearly hadn't read the canon blog. You're still on the default animation thing when I literally provided a calc and got it accepted.

In fact, I've looked over the old CRTs because I remember properly applying a different calc. And guess what? I was right all along! I don't know where the Golem stuff came from but the CRT that I made that got all the mons to High 7-A, I linked another CRT that got accepted, which used Lycanroc's FTL feat as the main feat to scale. Golem calc probably remained from old pre-2020 scaling. Why did it remain? Because when I was applying the CRT, like 2 people helped me edit things and left about 90% of the work to me.
So do people want to help fix the profiles properly? No, everyone wants either to scale tier 1 stuff or they try to canon split, ignoring all the official statements and the canon page. What will the canon split do if it happens today? It will do what it did last time, it will kill the verse and it will remain dead in the gutter for another few years until someone bothers to make a rebuttal and bring it back up again. In fact, the results will be even worse considering the wiki is definitely less active than it was before.

So no, this isn't agenda, this is me trying to keep a verse afloat and keep what is clearly meant to be a single setting together. This isn't the "easy" way out, this is just taking what the game makers told us and going with it instead of trying to find inconsistencies in a verse made up entirely of inconsistencies, the only thing consistent being the world itself.
 
I mean its compositing just for the sake of making them as strong as possible. Only verse on this wiki I can think of that does that still when everyone else is fine making separate pages and such.

And your 'canon-blog' isnt the gospel either. I've read what I can and disagree heavily, thinking it conveniently ignores everything else that tells you these are separate continuities and flat out ignores how this wiki treats different mediums within the same franchise.

They're references. And use of meta-aspects such as wonder trades and gift pokemon. You arent legitimately getting Ash's Pokemon in these events, it makes 0 sense. Meanwhile you think its comprehensible at all the stuff that happens in the anime, like the counter shields or that thunder armour, and we can ergo scale it? They're flat out different mediums and the sooner the wiki realises it the better.
The characters from the anime dont appear in the mainline, its the other way around lol. Just cause Ash-Greninja exists in the games doesnt mean it then directly connects to mainline. gonna conveniently ignore the multiverse aspect just to look that over and say that the games are now 1:1 with the anime
Even for the stuff that isnt, its vague stuff you gotta string together without any direct confirmation, and even then its outweighed by the entire different takes and narratives of these mediums.

Literally everyone outside of this wiki doesnt believe in this canon-compositing. If they do, they admit its using composites for the sake of debates, but thats still acknowledging otherwise. The wiki gets actively clowned on for it otherwise, so yeah, its very much an agenda on your end.
You yourself admitted there was no FTL feats in the video games, but instead of that being your sign that maybe Pokemon arent FTL, you need the speed stocks so bad that we had to be reliant on flawed calcs of different mediums.
This isnt keeping the verse afloat, its just trying to keep it to as high as possible in terms of stats. And it can work without it contrary to your belief. But it wont get done so the verse is cooked for the forseeable future
 
I see no counter-arguments besides "I disagree", "it breaks how wiki treats mediums" (even though the staff read the blog and agreed to use it), "it's compositing" (they're species profiles with the only 'composite' being some speed feats from the anime because the games are limited). It's the same spiel over and over again, calling shit wank whilst trying to hide downplay behind the strive for better profiles. I am not gonna argue with someone who clearly just wants to stonewall because their opinion is set in stone. You ignore the interviews, never actually debunk anything, talking with you is a waste of time.
 
If there's a clear contradiction, we account for that, that's what the canon heirarchy exists for. If there's something that a pokemon does that it shouldn't be able to do, we don't use it. Like we don't assume Sunny Day is 4-C for seemingly moving the sun in the manga considering it fits neither the scaling nor the other canons.
So you agree that there are differences in scaling between universes?
 
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