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OPM: Speed Upgrade(2)
- Thread starter MrTayman616
- Start date
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- Tags
- garou one-punch man saitama
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Calc is accepted, so I can. Unless other calc group members have contentions.
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I agree but why only a possible rating? They’ll achieve the speed with exponential growth either way
Astral_Trinity439
He/Him- 4,347
- 6,319
Seems fine to me
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I think "eventually" would be better than "Possibly" here. But the rating itself looks fine
- 4,555
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- Thread starter
- #8
Them being able to achieve it later is meaningless. Then we'd just give MFTL+ for them without any calc as they'll achieve it anyway, lol :d
Murata's statement is accepted as possibly, same as the mirror scene. That's why it works as possibly.
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In that case, Possibly seems fine.
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I still have a problem with upscaling Saitama from Garous reactions rather than treating the after images more like a skill/ability. ESPECIALLY given the entire Io destruction was used to confuse Garou meaning he was already struggling even figuring out which way he's looking.
Garou was dogging Saitamas ass, dodged his punch, and punched him again literally right before the tableflip
And right after Garou composes himself he immediately deflects like 4 attacks from Saitama
This would imply Saitama went from being perfectly equal to Garou for long enough for Garou to stomp him, then suddenly became so fast he STATUED Garou, and then Garou just randomly instantly caught up right away.
This random extremely explosive growth is not supported whatsoever. Hell it's actually contradicted by the later as they are perfectly equal throughout the rest of the fight with no huge jumps above one another, and even when Saitama is explicitly growing faster and faster Garous STILL remains somewhat relative to him. And even explosive the growth Saitama and Garou DO have is usually tied to near death experiences, not random like this.
So you're suggesting Saitama and Garou jump by statue-level gaps normally but then even when the manga specifically highlights their growth increasing they can no longer statue each other? It makes much more sense to say the after images were just a technique similar to however Goku and Tien can use after images to trick each other despite being relative.
Garou attacks Saitama with an "unavoidable" technique, explains it, and Saitama replies he can do that as well, uses a technique which is specifically shown to confuse Garou, and after Garou is no longer confused he instantly reacts to multiple attacks. That's not a statue level blitz that's just a good after image technique.
Garou was dogging Saitamas ass, dodged his punch, and punched him again literally right before the tableflip
And right after Garou composes himself he immediately deflects like 4 attacks from Saitama
This would imply Saitama went from being perfectly equal to Garou for long enough for Garou to stomp him, then suddenly became so fast he STATUED Garou, and then Garou just randomly instantly caught up right away.
This random extremely explosive growth is not supported whatsoever. Hell it's actually contradicted by the later as they are perfectly equal throughout the rest of the fight with no huge jumps above one another, and even when Saitama is explicitly growing faster and faster Garous STILL remains somewhat relative to him. And even explosive the growth Saitama and Garou DO have is usually tied to near death experiences, not random like this.
So you're suggesting Saitama and Garou jump by statue-level gaps normally but then even when the manga specifically highlights their growth increasing they can no longer statue each other? It makes much more sense to say the after images were just a technique similar to however Goku and Tien can use after images to trick each other despite being relative.
Garou attacks Saitama with an "unavoidable" technique, explains it, and Saitama replies he can do that as well, uses a technique which is specifically shown to confuse Garou, and after Garou is no longer confused he instantly reacts to multiple attacks. That's not a statue level blitz that's just a good after image technique.
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- Thread starter
- #12
I didn't treat the after images as such. I would use ALL of the after images if i was doing what you claimed. I only took the path of one afterimage as it's basically the movement one Saitama take.(Obviously he'd actually be faster as he's doing all the after images but eh)
Garou's ability is not just growth, it's adaptation.
Also, Garou got punched more than 1500 times there(based on counting the number of lines), got clearly blitzed in term of movement. Saitama reached to the end of the portal before Garou could even move, which Garou was directly looking at there yet he was still shocked to see Saitama there.
It takes Garou getting punches 1500 times until he can finally do something. His reaction in that scene the calc is for is very clear about it as well.
Also, what Garou reacts to here is his after images, not ONE Saitama. It's not like all the after images has the same speed as full speed Saitama (Saitama doing 10 clones and Saitama doing 100 clones, 100 clones would obviously be slower individually, aka easier to react.), so this is meaningless regardless. (Saitama also travels far more distance than Garou there who deflects in the same location he stays on)
This is only after chapter 167's end, where Garou starts to continously copy Saitama because he was far too strong for him.
For the graph, that graph isn't of the entire fight, but only after Garou starts copying him(which is after chapter 167's end like i said). So it doesn't contain their growth rate or power level of the moment in the calc.
Saitama, as Garou claims, is basically showing off his physical ability by jumping between the rocks to attack him from all direction.
Garou used portals to attack from all directions and ignoring distance, making his punches unavoidable. Saitama doesn't teleport, he's doing the same thing fully with physical ability as stated.
There is literally no excuse for Garou to get punched 1500 times before finally being able to do something, which is to get punched again and realize the opponent is far too strong for him.
There is no excuse for the scene in the calc as well, the scene itself is extremely obvious about it, same as his reaction to it.
Anyway, the feat itself is painfully clear no matter how you look at it. I don't think the claims are actually going against it either.
Also, 0.0001 END doesn't get affected either way. It doesn't just trust Garou's perception, but Garou's ability to act. Garou would obviously act against Saitama before 0.0001 second as he's canonically far more than capable of it. It's not just relying on "Saitama blitzes" or something. (Actually, so does the other end ig?)
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That's not really relevant. You're arguing Saitama statued him which is just not consistent whatsoever.
Adaptation which was incapable of keeping up with Saitama jumping by sub-one shot 2-3x jumps in strength which basically debunks him adapting to a thousands of times speed difference.
Adaptation which in every other case needed a much longer time frame OR a near death situation, neither of which happened here.
Not every line is a punch as we see Saitama was just jumping around without punching Garou a lot too. But that's not super relevant because…
He blatantly does not get blitzed. He perceives the after image coming towards him, opens a portal and dodges them.
Then Saitama catches him by surprise inside the portal, punches him, and that leads to Garou uncontrollably spinning throwing off his sense of direction even more than it was before.
Garou starts off disoriented, gets caught by surprise AFTER BLATANTLY REACTING TO SAITAMAS AFTER IMAGES, and is literally sent spinning to disorient him even more.
Also assuming Garou got blitzed 1500 times is kinda worse because that shows Saitamas physical stays should NOT be vastly above Garous and yet you're implying the speed difference was so massive Garou was literally statued.
Garou deflects Saitama which visibly makes him change directions. Afterwards images aren't physical so deflecting them would just leave Garou punching air.
In other words not only is there no evidence those were just after images being deflected but their change of direction proves they are NOT in fact after images.
First of all, Saitama isn't a throw projectile. Yeah maybe Saitama ran from a further distance away but once close to Garou, if he saw Garou trying to do an aim-dodge style deflection he could just change his attack even if he was as little as 2-3x faster. You're arguing Saitama STATUED him.
Second of all, against I can't stress this enough, traveling more distance doesn't support STATUEING Garou. According to your calculation Saitama should literally be able to just do this
Yes, so?
Point is, Saitamas speed doesn't just jump by statue levels not only during their fight, but even when Saitamas exponential growth starts kicking in. And yet you're claiming that even without that huge exponential increase in growth, Saitama could magically jump by 30 thousand times in the very same fight.
Either Saitama can instantly statue an equal opponent or he can't. It can't be both and all evidence points towards him not statueing Garou to begin with.
This is just dishonest. Saitamas exponential growth was so much higher than his previous growth that he almost instantly grew too strong for Garou to even observe his strength anymore
Trying to imply that Saitamas chapter 165 growth was faster than chapter 166 when ch166 explicitly goes over how Saitamas abilities keep rising exponentially and how he's only NOW pulling away from Garou is beyond disingenuous.
Cool, that's not the point. The point is attacking from all directions which makes his attacks unavoidable.
And while Saitama can't teleport, that's why he uses Io to disorient Garou and give himself stuff to jump off of.
There isn't "an excuse" but there is a good reason.
He gets disoriented and stunlocked by Saitama spinning him with each punch. Like the entire point of the scenes was that Garou CAN react to and tag Saitama normally so Saitama uses an "unavoidable attack" similar to Garous technique to hit him.
Yes the feat IS in fact painfully clear.
It's painfully clear Garou could tag Saitama right before the flip.
It's painfully clear Garou could dodge Saitamas punch right before the tableflip.
It's painfully clear Garou reacts to the tableflip itself.
It's painfully clear Garou reacts to the after images.
It's painfully clear Garous senses of direction is messed up by the tableflip.
It's painfully clear Garou gets stunlocked by being constantly sent spinning on top of the ruined sense of direction.
It's painfully clear Garou reacts to Saitama multiple times then second he stops himself from spinning.
It's painfully clear Saitama is purposely using a technique made to be unavoidable.
It's painfully clear Garou is NOT getting statued and Saitama CAN'T grow dozens of thousands faster of times instantly because of the exponential grow chapter showing Garou reacting to Saitama even after he can't even comprehend his power anymore.
The first part of the calcs relies on Saitama perception blitzing Garou and Garou immediately scaling to it before they can even get to him.
The second part of the calc literally relies on Saitama being basically 30,000x faster than Garou.
I could honestly talk about the calcs issues on their own but honestly even those are not at egregious as claiming Saitama went from equal to Garou to perception blitzing him to equal again to being 30,000x faster in the span of 1 actual attack landing.
But that then Saitama couldn't even get noticeably faster than Garou while literally growing so much quicker than before that Garou couldn't even comprehend his speed anymore.
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the calc repeatedly uses calculations like sqrt(39.1497547^2+ 11.4564085*6.40476378) = 40.075914 meters. this is not the proper distance formula if I remember correct. the correct formula should be sqrt(x^2+y^2) Instead, one axis is squared while the other is multiplied. this appears multiple times throughout the calc.
Examples:
The calc also states "The location of where the portal opened to is unknown" but then immediately chooses one of the farthest possible distances for the result. the portal destination is unknown, the actual distance is unknown, Garou may not even be moving through normal space conventionally while inside the portal.
Murata statement also does not support the final result "In Saitama's eyes rocks at sub-light speed is nothing" this is not a quantitative speed statement. It only implies that Saitama can casually perceive sub-light speed movement. It does not justify millions of times light speed.
The calc also stacks too many assumptions together. assumed timeframe, assumed FOV, assumed portal distance, assumed afterimage positions, assumed movement through the portal. When multiple assumptions are stacked together, the margin of error becomes extremely large.
Examples:
- sqrt(21.1268981^2+ 1.80703125*4.71399457) = 21.3275446 meters
- sqrt(28.4382388^2+ 8.35926316*22.6894286) = 31.5974735 meters
- sqrt(53.763095^2+ 11.3277692*3.79212876) = 54.1611184 meters
The calc also states "The location of where the portal opened to is unknown" but then immediately chooses one of the farthest possible distances for the result. the portal destination is unknown, the actual distance is unknown, Garou may not even be moving through normal space conventionally while inside the portal.
Murata statement also does not support the final result "In Saitama's eyes rocks at sub-light speed is nothing" this is not a quantitative speed statement. It only implies that Saitama can casually perceive sub-light speed movement. It does not justify millions of times light speed.
The calc also stacks too many assumptions together. assumed timeframe, assumed FOV, assumed portal distance, assumed afterimage positions, assumed movement through the portal. When multiple assumptions are stacked together, the margin of error becomes extremely large.
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Get out..
Mythic381
He/Him- 2,433
- 1,422
nuh uh.
On a serious note, this seems to be a very simple CRT, so would it require more staff votes? Unless you want calc group members mentioned.
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He just was copying Garou. Not necessarily to confuse him, it's because he did the exact same thing to him. You have to remember, the entire point of Saitama doing that and more was to do it on purpose, he saw his martial arts as simple "tricks" and stood on his point when he said "i could do something like that". It's just to show that Garou's martial arts aren't going to help him.
It was an implicit way of mocking Garou's attempt to utilize his godly power when none of his moves worked on Saitama.
I wouldn't say composed. Garou reacted wildly here I would say. Garou still lost his sense of direction because of Saitama's alteration of I.O. lol.
This contention I really have a big gripe with. Saitama isn't trying to catch up to Garou or is on par with him in anyway. They're comparable yes and at one point they WERE on par with each other, but Saitama made that gap wider and wider. And... Garou didn't really stomp Saitama? Saitama was just being outmaneuvered, which happened when Garou was in his monster form. Saitama literally was wondering how Garou was making his punches not land, which wouldn't mean anything since Saitama was still holding back (which saitama was also holding back here as well but that's not the point).
Also, Saitama "statuing Garou" doesn't really happen? The calculation itself just uses a bare minimum time window for a vastly slower Garou because 1. that's an in-verse timeframe that can be used logically instead of assuming random timeframes and 2. would mean that Garou at this point is way beyond that said time window, because he's on Saitama's level now. I mean, the jump from Monster Garou and God Garou's speed is huge enough that it should be clear there isn't any implied statuing going on. The scene itself presents Saitama knocking around Garou, which Garou barely manages to react to because of this barrage being done by Saitama. I think it's reasonable to say that Garou can't do much if he's being ragdolled in the timeframe of WAY below a second.
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You're missing the point. I'm saying the point of the 3D attack was that it's unavoidable and Saitama used it for that reason, AND that it blatantly made Garou completely disoriented.
That's 2 different things.
Garou still lost his sense of direction since he straight up rammed into a wall afterwards, yes, but he still composed himself enough to start spinning around and focus on what Saitama is doing
No?
Saitama and Garou were equal because Garou copied him when he was serious.
That's why they clashed equally and why Garou could dodge his attacks as well as tag him.
And the problem is that NOTHING implies Saitama grew by 30,000x on top of a perception blitz tier jump above Garou in the span of a single attack while the speed of his later blatantly fastest growth didn't even cover a 5x gap in speed or a one shot gap in strength.
This growth rate is inconsistent with the established canonical growth rate and not supported by anything in the manga.
What? This is how Saitama's speed is calculated.
The "bare minimum time window" (which I also disagree with due to the idea Garou went from getting perception blitzed by Saitamas after images to being faster than them to being 30k times slower than Saitama again) is only used for Garou's speed and the speed of the afterimages.
But Saitamas speed is then derived by assuming Garou gets statued by him.
You're misunderstanding the calculation.
You're also completely ignoring the fact that the whole point of the Io flip is that Garou gets disoriented and then basically stun-locked by Saitama flipping him around until he "focuses" himself.
The funny thing is I'd say "spiritually" agree with the results, Saitama should definitely be able to statue monster Garou who's much faster than Flashy. BUT he also just as obviously can't statue cosmic Garou.
SO, just because I agree with the results doesn't mean I'll overlook that the method is bad. And the method here unfortunately just doesn't work.
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- Thread starter
- #20
He does statue him, only in terms of movement there.
I'm not claiming Saitama grew 30000 times there or something.
Saitama did statue Garou, reaching to the end of the portal before Garou could even move. That one is clear.
I'm not claiming he got perception blitzed or anything, how can i when he literally perceives Saitama who reached to the other side of the portal in that exact scene. Garou was on air, he has nothing to get movement from unlike Saitama who jumps between rocks at full power. Garou moves faster than Saitama's after image to escape, i'm simply using his speed there.
Saitama statued his movement speed of that moment. That's what i'm using.
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You're literally scaling Saitama 30,000 (or like 29,500 or something like that) above Garous calculated speed here.
So yes you are.
No he didn't. Garou literally transferred half of his body into the portal and noticed Saitama in the portal before he can punch him.
You use the 0.0001 second timeframe because that's how fast Garou can react.
The argument is literally "Saitama moves X distances faster than Garou can perceive" for the afterimage speed.
You're trying to use the "movement speed" term as a shield from the implication that Saitama grew 30,000x faster in a single moment for no reason but it really doesn't change anything.
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- Thread starter
- #22
This isn't just his perception speed.
Garou is canonically capable of fighting and moving distances. I'm using it as the timeframe for when he moves/act against it.
I didn't mean perception, but act against it,"reaction". Garou would start moving before 0.0001 second as he canonically scales to it. Saitama moves that much before Garou starts using the portal, his movement scales to the timeframe.
Saitama quite literally reaches to the end of the portal before Garou moves while moving at that speed.
Garou makes no movement yet still perceives Saitama there. How is that makes it a "shield"?
Yes, his calculated speed, which happens when he's on air, not getting support from surface, not even has something to help his movement. Unlike Saitama who jumps between rocks with physical ability.
He moved faster than an after image of Saitama, this is a movement speed he achieved at that state. That's what Saitama statues. Garou still perceived him.
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The argument is that Garou only reacts after Saitama moves X distance.
Meaning you are literally arguing a perception blitz.
That doesn't work because it assumes Garou would start acting when Saitama isn't even attacking him and just jumps around like a rabbit.
If the argument is that Garou perceived him but didn't start moving then the entire calculation falls apart even harder as that presupposes Garou was going to act even when Saitama wasn't even attacking him in that moment.
Except Garou is more then shoulders deep into the portal by the time Saitama does that while the calculation assumes he moved less than 3 millimeters.
Garou goes moves well over a meter into the portal before Saitama appears there.
And it's a shield because you're trying to hide the fact that you're implying Saitama is 30,000x faster than Garou by separating it to different kinds of speed which just isn't supported by anything. It's Garous dodging speed vs Saitamas combat speed.
See again that's just trying to use different "speed" types as a shield to hide how absurd your argument is.
Now you're saying Garous dodging speed is 30,000x slower than Saitama just because he doesn't have anything to jump off of even though he can literally fly.
Garou uses the same flight ability in tandem with portals as a response to Saitama slapping him in the face
So a genius like Garou considers his portal+flight speed to be fast enough to fight Saitama, but now Saitama is statueing the very same flight + portal speed? So again you're trying to hide the fact you're arguing Saitama to have jumped by 30,000x by separating Garous dodge/flight speed from his combat speed but that doesn't work because this literally is Garous combat speed.
Also if we want to actually talk about the calculation itself, it's whole premise doesn't work.
You're saying there's no movement between this panel
And this panel
But that's just like, objectively wrong?
In the first panel Garou is shoulder deep inside of the portal.
In the second panel Garou is actually at least a forearm distance above the portal.
Meaning not only did Garou blatantly move between the panels, but he actually managed to fully stop his previous velocity and start flying upwards away from Saitama by at least 30+ centimeters (the length of his forearm).
So this
Just objectively isn't true and the calculation itself hinges on it.
So basically nothing works here.
The after image speed assumes that Garou is getting speed blitzed by the after images despite having nothing to even react to as they're not approaching him.
The after image speed also takes the distance traveled by like 5 after images for the speed of a single after image and then claims they all travel that fast.
Saitamas speed assumes Garou got statued which he visibly didn't.
Saitamas speed assumes Garou hit statued which is completely inconsistent withing in-universe lore.
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That’s great and all, but I’m telling you how the narrative doesn’t support Saitama specifically doing that for said reason. Again, look and see WHY saitama does it in the first place, Garou confirmation makes note of this.
I don’t believe Garou going “HIYAAA” and shielding himself from ALL SIDES when Saitama was only really attacking him from the front is him composing himself. Garou doing that is the same as a really strong character going “ENOUGH” after being pummeled consecutively; it was just to get Saitama off of him being he had enough.
He barely managed to do it as well because in the time it took for Garou to traverse a few meters, Saitama was already enough to ricochet him again.
Again, this happens in Garou’s monster form
So. Many. Times.
And a casual Saitama IS capable of dodging these attacks, however Garou already stated he could still tag Saitama because of his openings and lack of techniques. Garou landed so many of his attacks in his god form BECAUSE they landed not only rapidly but at an unpredictable rate. Garou literally hit Saitama from afar with his Whirlwind Iron cutting fist and was able to surprise him with his roaring aura sky ripping fist, which we see Saitama could STILL react to but was parried BECAUSE of Garou’s martial art techniques. It’s not that Saitama was struggling or anything, it’s just that his powers were too staggering for Saitama.
Ah, I must’ve overlooked that then. Then it is flawed, there is an actual better method to this but I won’t go over that for now. However, again, it uses a vastly lower timeframe.
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Dude, Garou explains the unavoidable nature of his attack and Saitama legit goes "cool, I can do that too" and uses the tableflip.
The entire purpose is that Saitama is using an unavoidable technique similar to Garous. Not that he's statueing him.
Garou stops spinning and flying around, blocks Saitamas next 4 attacks, and literally tells himself "focus".
It's as straightforward as can be.
Huh? That's a casualty Saitama
EVERYONE who's read OPM knows that Saitama was playing around with monster Garou. But he wasn't playing around with Cosmic Garou.
The entire reason why Cosmic Garou kills Genos is to make Saitama go all out and after he does that Saitama IMMEDIATELY gets serious and borderline bloodlusted. The narrator literally states Saitama was experienced an upsurge of emotion greater than anything before.
So trying to compare playful casual Saitama to bloodlusted serious Saitama is beyond absurd.
If there is a better method I'm all for it. But this method is honestly just not good.
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I do have a calculation which I believe can resolve a lot of the issues had with previous iterations of Saitama’s I.o. on my profile, though it never got looked at by a CGM lol.
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Is anything still being discussed here?
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doesn't seem like it. It seems like people are for the new calculation but ig ppl also just moved on from it for some reason
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Well, since it's accepted, I see no issues with applying it.
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It only has 1 vote tho, or are you voting too?
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They meant the calc innit?
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I am voting, I said it's fine.
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Ahh I see, I misunderstood lel
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This thread should be accepted now. I think we can proceed with editing the profile.
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Can the opposition provide a summary for why exactly this calc doesn't work?
Saqphire
She/Her- 1,572
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It's been a while since I read (and scaled) this fight, but unless I'm mistaken, Saitama doesn't start growing until right before he sneezes Jupiter out of existence which was after this feat. This would mean that Garou would still be relative to this Saitama yet the calc puts him to be, like David said, 30000x faster than him, meaning there wouldn't be an actual fight taking place in the first place as Saitama would be several blitz tiers above Garou.
Also Garou needs to percieve his opponent to be able to copy his stats (whether it's by seeing him or sensing him), so the adaptation argument doesn't work either. Combine that with the prior argument that Saitama's table flip was simply an un-avoidable attack anyway, yeah I cannot in good conciousness agree with this CRT.Also Yellow Topaz's prior argument is buns
Don't mind me btw, I'm just expressing my thoughts. I'll let David provide the summary
Also Garou needs to percieve his opponent to be able to copy his stats (whether it's by seeing him or sensing him), so the adaptation argument doesn't work either. Combine that with the prior argument that Saitama's table flip was simply an un-avoidable attack anyway, yeah I cannot in good conciousness agree with this CRT.
Don't mind me btw, I'm just expressing my thoughts. I'll let David provide the summary
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looking at the graph no he was growing much earlier since they showed the graph since when we see the graph the point at which they took Saitama's growth matches the second to last level of his growth before Garou evolved again and Saitama did the same I think Saitama was growing from their fight on earth and Garou was doing the same copying him etc
and then when we see the graph there is a huge surge for Saitama and shortly after the sneeze feat happens
