DBS Anime Goku vs DBGT Anime Goku REDUX • (0-4-0)

[MichaelCalistro]

This has happened before in Nov 19, 2025. Has the result changed?

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Goku, the Canon Kakarot

VS

Goku, the Filler Kakarot

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Tournament of Power (Pre-Ultra Instinct -Sign-) Goku • Super 17 Saga Goku • Standard Battle Assumptions • Speed is equalized • In a very large indestructible Tournament of Power Arena

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Theme:

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Goku vs goku

THE Strongest vs Strongest mortal*

A battle for the ages. Sit this one out Cabba!

 

[Gamin_Yoon23]

Who holds the AP advantage?

 

[MichaelCalistro]

Goku vs goku

THE Strongest vs Strongest mortal*

A battle for the ages. Sit this one out Cabba!

 

[MichaelCalistro]

Who holds the AP advantage?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:StarShooter80/Dragon_Ball_Anime:_Statistical_Ratings

GT Scaling Chain and SSJ4 Multiplier

vsbattles.fandom.com

I found these two blogs, but not so much on AP scaling.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

I'm pretty sure super anime Goku has literally no way around the death mortality end of series GT has for being dead

 

[MichaelCalistro]

I'm pretty sure super anime Goku has literally no way around the death mortality end of series GT has for being dead

Is Goku's Immortality like combat applicable if the fight doesn't take place in the Afterlife?

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Is Goku's Immortality like combat applicable if the fight doesn't take place in the Afterlife?

In GT? Yes it is- tho the mechanics in general it's messy but goku has definitely been on earth and dead before amd the profile says nothing about it being exclusive and were supposed to use the profile so, ya it works functionally for this fight. Shame super anime goku can't haki

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Honestly I think GT Goku even having that immortality is pretty questionable but it's on the profile so? Shrugs were supposed to use it

 

[RedReaper616]

Goku did “die,” which is why he has it listed. That’s the Cell/Frieza immortality where they are already dead and cannot did so long as they are in the Afterlife.

But as Goku is in the ToP, it shouldn't work. Or rather, Goku would just get sent back to his origin place in the Afterlife. Goku could then just teleport back to Superku to continue the fight (if Superku was in range and could be sensed, anyway).

The real meat and potatoes is the other one. The “immortality” Goku gains from overcoming the conventional life/death dichotomy that exists in Dragon Ball(’s Toei Continuity), which manifests as an “Aura” that makes Goku “Unable to be Touched.”

Basically, Superku might not be able to really interact with P-NKB GT Goku. Superku could fire stupidly high level attacks and it shouldn't really matter, because GT would basically be on Gojo timing.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Goku did “die,” which is why he has it listed. That’s the Cell/Frieza immortality where they are already dead and cannot did so long as they are in the Afterlife.

But as Goku is in the ToP, it shouldn't work. Or rather, Goku would just get sent back to his origin place in the Afterlife. Goku could then just teleport back to Superku to continue the fight (if Superku was in range and could be sensed, anyway).

The real meat and potatoes is the other one. The “immortality” Goku gains from overcoming the conventional life/death dichotomy that exists in Dragon Ball(’s Toei Continuity), which manifests as an “Aura” that makes Goku “Unable to be Touched.”

Basically, Superku might not be able to really interact with P-NKB GT Goku. Superku could fire stupidly high level attacks and it shouldn't really matter, because GT would basically be on Gojo timing.

Ya that far from defienitvely saying he died, but either way it's not material to the debeat

I fail to see hoe that link implies goku would he sent back to the afterlife, the fighters thay exited hell in the super 17 part of GT aren't dead there all alive. They go to the check in station to be judged again after dying not to hell, why there alive isn't really clear but it's definitely clear that they are alive and not dead.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Basically, Superku might not be able to really interact with P-NKB GT Goku. Superku could fire stupidly high level attacks and it shouldn't really matter, because GT would basically be on Gojo timing.

They both basically have ultra instinct then lol

 

[RedReaper616]

Ya that far from defienitvely saying he died, but either way it's not material to the debeat

It's saying they liked how they wrote him dying without saying it plainly.

I fail to see hoe that link implies goku would he sent back to the afterlife, the fighters thay exited hell in the super 17 part of GT aren't dead there all alive. They go to the check in station to be judged again after dying not to hell, why there alive isn't really clear but it's definitely clear that they are alive and not dead.

Exactly. They die, go to the check in Station, (The Afterlife), and go back to their specific place in the Afterlife (Heaven/Hell). Where they stay. The only reason it was a problem is because the Gateway meant they could repeatedly travel back to the Living World after dying again. Without it, though, like what happens in canon, they’re stuck in their ordinary place in the afterlife again.

They both basically have ultra instinct then lol

Kinda, yeah. Superku probably outstats, but GTku has one major hax that prevents fighting. I think GTku would just outlast Superku.

 

[Nonynho]

This has happened before in Mar 29, 2026. Has the result changed?

kinda

it has happened 11/18/2025, where it was shown that in those keys they don't match due to how the scaling chain goes

For one side not to stomp the other, it has to be
P-UI -Sign- (2nd Awakening)-Broly Arc vs Super 17/Shadow Dragon Sagas
(p-negative karma ball GTku has immortalities Superku can't deal with and stronger Superku keys scale to 12 universes stomping GTku)

This match is in their profiles btw

 

[Darkmon_cns]

It's saying they liked how they wrote him dying without saying it plainly..

I do not agree in the slightest granted I don't know who your quoting there, but the fact is seemingly there not on the writing team, someone even someone of note even if it was toyama himself, having a interpretation of a highly interptable scene dose not in anyway make that interpretation definitive even if they were on the writing time

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Exactly. They die, go to the check in Station, (The Afterlife), and go back to their specific place in the Afterlife (Heaven/Hell). Where they stay. The only reason it was a problem is because the Gateway meant they could repeatedly travel back to the Living World after dying again. Without it, though, like what happens in canon, they’re stuck in their ordinary place in the afterlife again.

Ya because there not dead well there on earth. Well goku is actually dead in the situation where he has the immortality. This dosen't realte to the fight at all

 

[Nonynho]

ngl i find it funny because 7 months ago took me a week to figure out the scaling chain to get the match and people don't even see that it is already in the profiles lol

 

[Darkmon_cns]

ngl i find it funny because 7 months ago took me a week to figure out the scaling chain to get the match and people don't even see that it is already in the profiles lol

Ooo.oof

 

[MichaelCalistro]

ngl i find it funny because 7 months ago took me a week to figure out the scaling chain to get the match and people don't even see that it is already in the profiles lol

Wasn't this like before Dragon Ball Kai anime became canon to Dragon Ball Super anime? I also believe that the fight happened before both Canon Dragon Ball and Toei Dragon Ball shared worldview and setting was accepted.

 

[MichaelCalistro]

kinda

it has happened 11/18/2025, where it was shown that in those keys they don't match due to how the scaling chain goes

For one side not to stomp the other, it has to be
P-UI -Sign- (2nd Awakening)-Broly Arc vs Super 17/Shadow Dragon Sagas
(p-negative karma ball GTku has immortalities Superku can't deal with and stronger Superku keys scale to 12 universes stomping GTku)

This match is in their profiles btw

Tournament of Power (Pre-Ultra Instinct -Sign-) Goku • Post-Negative Karma Ball Goku • Standard Battle Assumptions • Speed is equalized • In a very large indestructible Tournament of Power Arena

I mentioned the keys.

 

[Nonynho]

I also believe that the fight happened before both Canon Dragon Ball and Toei Dragon Ball shared worldview and setting was accepted.

iirc this was already the case back then

Wasn't this like before Dragon Ball Kai anime became canon to Dragon Ball Super anime?

oh, yes it was, since i didn't know it was the case

what big difference did this make?

 

[Nonynho]

Tournament of Power (Pre-Ultra Instinct -Sign-) Goku • Post-Negative Karma Ball Goku • Standard Battle Assumptions • Speed is equalized • In a very large indestructible Tournament of Power Arena

I mentioned the keys.

yeah, still problematic since P-Negative Karma Ball Goku can't be killed

 

[MichaelCalistro]

iirc this was already the case back then


oh, yes it was, since i didn't know it was the case

what big difference did this make?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:StarShooter80/Dragon_Ball_Anime:_Statistical_Ratings

 

[MichaelCalistro]

yeah, still problematic since P-Negative Karma Ball Goku can't be killed

Should I change it to Shadow Dragon Sagas Goku instead?

 

[Nonynho]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:StarShooter80/Dragon_Ball_Anime:_Statistical_Ratings

well, if this made changes to the scaling chain, but you still came to the same conclusion i did, nothing should be changing from the old match

See, P-Karma Ball GTku was and still is matchable statswise with the key we propose, p-UI Sign, the problem is the immortality, and that's why you use the prior one, and then the match keeps the same as it was before

 

[Nonynho]

Should I change it to Shadow Dragon Sagas Goku instead?

for it to be matchable yeah, but, again, it'll be the same match i did

 

[Nonynho]

Ah, and before you ask: Blue must be restricted because all the scaling chain for GT applies for the 3 Universes side of it, if he transforms into SSG or Blue, the 2-C rating becomes 6 universes and GTku is cooked

 

[MichaelCalistro]

well, if this made changes to the scaling chain, but you still came to the same conclusion i did, nothing should be changing from the old match

See, P-Karma Ball GTku was and still is matchable statswise with the key we propose, p-UI Sign, the problem is the immortality, and that's why you use the prior one, and then the match keeps the same as it was before

Ah, and before you ask: Blue must be restricted because all the scaling chain for GT applies for the 3 Universes side of it, if he transforms into SSG or Blue, the 2-C rating becomes 6 universes and GTku is cooked

Ultra Instinct -Sign- (First Awakening) and later keys used for Dragon Ball Super anime Goku are all 6 Universes regardless of his colorful transformations, Dragon Ball GT anime Goku in all of his keys don't go beyond 3 Universes regardless of his colorful transformations as well.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Ah, and before you ask: Blue must be restricted because all the scaling chain for GT applies for the 3 Universes side of it, if he transforms into SSG or Blue, the 2-C rating becomes 6 universes and GTku is cooked

Goku passing 3 separate infinite gaps of power with 2 hair style and color change--

 

[Nonynho]

Ultra Instinct -Sign- (First Awakening) and later keys for Dragon Ball Super anime Goku are all 6 Universes regardless of transformations

please send me the CRT claiming this, because this is kinda not what the profile's saying, since the descriptions for those keys speak of UI and God transformations

 

[MichaelCalistro]

please send me the CRT claiming this, because this is kinda not what the profile's saying, since the descriptions for those keys speak of UI and God transformations

Nevermind, but Standard Battle Assumptions applies for this fight.

 

[MichaelCalistro]

Tournament of Power (Pre-Ultra Instinct -Sign-) Goku • Shadow Dragon Sagas Goku • Standard Battle Assumptions • Speed is equalized • In a very large indestructible Tournament of Power Arena

New settings since Post-Negative Karma Ball Goku can say lol nope to anything other Goku can do.

 

[Nonynho]

Tournament of Power (Pre-Ultra Instinct -Sign-) Goku • Shadow Dragon Sagas Goku • Standard Battle Assumptions • Speed is equalized • In a very large indestructible Tournament of Power Arena

New settings since Post-Negative Karma Ball Goku can say lol nope to anything other Goku can do.

Ok, so assuming their 3 Universes AP scaling chain goes for them to be matchable

GTku outsmarts and has more finalizing moves than Superku, such as Kamehameha 10x, and as both forms drain a f* ton of energy, the fact that GTku has his tail back, which makes ki management easier, GTku has an advantage in stamina too

All of those discussed in the aforementioned thread, and are the arguments i remember in the top of my mind

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Ok, so assuming their 3 Universes AP scaling chain goes for them to be matchable

GTku outsmarts and has more finalizing moves than Superku, such as Kamehameha 10x, and as both forms drain a f* ton of energy, the fact that GTku has his tail back, which makes ki management easier, GTku has an advantage in stamina too

All of those discussed in the aforementioned thread, and are the arguments i remember in the top of my mind

In this situation super goku is expressly barred from god forms, as (apprently) he'd be 6 uni then.sens this isn't manga goku no using ultra instinct in base for an advantage but sense this goku dosen't use his strongest forms he should have a stamina edge maybe? Was there ever any word on that I wonder?

 

[MichaelCalistro]

In this situation super goku is expressly barred from god forms, as (apprently) he'd be 6 uni then.sens this isn't manga goku no using ultra instinct in base for an advantage but sense this goku dosen't use his strongest forms he should have a stamina edge maybe? Was there ever any word on that I wonder?

This isn't DBS manga Goku but DBS anime Goku. SBA means the characters starts the fight at their strongest in their given key. The key provided for DBS anime Goku is his last key before he reached 6 Universes.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

O my mistake

How'd he get to 6 uni anyway?

 

[MichaelCalistro]

O my mistake

How'd he get to 6 uni anyway?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:StarShooter80/Dragon_Ball_Anime:_Statistical_Ratings#Universal_Survival_Saga

Universal Survival Saga​

• Ultimate Gohan can now rival Super Saiyan Blue Goku. Piccolo held his own against Pilina and Saonel who both matched Ultimate Gohan: 51.2 Quadrillion x 3 Universes (2-C) & 15.136 Undecillion c (Massively FTL+)
  • Due to being able to match SSB Goku with an inferior form, Gohan's base should scale to Goku's: 6.4 Billion x 3 Universes (2-C) & 1.892 Nonillion c (Massively FTL+)
  • Super Saiyan Gohan: 320 Billion x 3 Universes (2-C) & 94.6 Nonillion c (Massively FTL+)
  • Super Saiyan 2 Gohan: 640 Billion x 3 Universes (2-C) & 189.2 Nonillion c (Massively FTL+)
• Goku can now use Kaioken x20 on top of Super Saiyan Blue: 1.024 Quintillion x 3 Universes (2-C) & 302.72 Undecillion c (Massively FTL+)
• While Jiren was suppressed, pushing back the spirit bomb, Shin commented on how his power was unlike any threat they faced before, including Zamasu. Simply by walking, he's capable of shaking the World of Void, which was completely unaffected by a fight between three destroyers, with a fight between two alone being taboo since it results in the destruction of two universes. Ultra Instinct Omen Goku (first awakening) can fight against this heavily suppressed Jiren, and can even shake the World of Void himself: 6 Universes (2-C) & 1.21 Quattuordecillion c (Massively FTL+)
• Post-Ultra Instinct Omen (second awakening) SSJB Goku is able to push Jiren into using more power than he did previously. Post-Tournament Blue Vegeta can fight equally against SSJB Goku: 6 Universes (2-C) & 1.21 Quattuordecillion c (Massively FTL+)
  • Goku base to base is superior to "Future" Trunks Saga Vegito, due to having a stronger Blue form. This applies to post-tournament base Vegeta as well: 512 Quadrillion x 3 Universes (2-C) & 151.36 Undecillion c (Massively FTL+)
  • Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta: 25.6 Quintillion x 3 Universes (2-C) & 7.56 Duodecillion c (Massively FTL+)
  • Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Vegeta: 51.2 Quintillion x 3 Universes (2-C) & 15.13 Duodecillion c (Massively FTL+)
  • Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 204.8 Quintillion x 3 Universes (2-C) & 60.54 Duodecillion c (Massively FTL+)
  • SSJG Goku and Vegeta: 0.02 x 6 Universes (2-C) & 24.2 Tredecillion c (Massively FTL+)
  • Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-ken x20 Goku, Blue Evolution Vegeta is relative to him. By the Broly Saga they're still said to be desperately trying to catch up to Beerus: 20 x 6 Universes (2-C) & 24.2 Quattuordecillion c (Massively FTL+)
  • Ultra Instinct Omen (third awakening) is even stronger, with Perfected Ultra Instinct being even more superior. Stated several times to be above the destroyers: 80 x 6 Universes (2-C) & 96.8 Quattuordecillion c (Massively FTL+)

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Uaa right universe 6 is considered 3 unis so 6 and 7 are 6 unis

 

[RedReaper616]

I do not agree in the slightest granted I don't know who your quoting there, but the fact is seemingly there not on the writing team, someone even someone of note even if it was toyama himself, having a interpretation of a highly interptable scene dose not in anyway make that interpretation definitive even if they were on the writing time

It was literally a guy on the writing team. He’s the same guy from the explanation of the Aura. He’s a legit source.

Ya because there not dead well there on earth. Well goku is actually dead in the situation where he has the immortality. This dosen't realte to the fight at all

No, they are. They just don't have their immortality as purely functional. And yeah, I literally said it doesn't relate, because he’s not in the afterlife.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

It was literally a guy on the writing team. He’s the same guy from the explanation of the Aura. He’s a legit source.

Then why dose he word it like he wasn't part of the decision? even if he was. I maintain individuals on a writing team can have opinions about a open-ended vauge ending, however that dosen't mean anything one of them has the authority to say what is right intend of the GT ending to be open end it and for it to not be completely clear what happened is obvious.

No, they are. They just don't have their immortality as purely functional. And yeah, I literally said it doesn't relate, because he’s not in the afterlife.

I'll pull up the episode of dragonball dissection that covers this if you want but, the show dose make it clesr that there actually currently living.