On some more Honkai chainscaling + NEP3 removal

[Reiner04]

Can you ping @Voidnether for the summary please

@Voidnether @PedjaTarzan @BreezeHM @PlungingThroughTime

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

I am fine with Welt downscaling from Zephyro due to this.

Does this mean you're also fine with the Star of Eden's Zeroth Power and Zephyro's white hole keeping their 2-A rating due to the fact that Honkai/Imaginary Energy is a UES, divine keys requiring Welt's own energy output, and both attacks requiring their own energy outputs in order for the attack to be that strong? The OP didnt propose against this but like 2 people here were.

Like @Jackof_noTrades068 explains it

The profiles can list it as being conditional AP that either white hole or zeroth can’t achieve on their own but I’m with Cas on saying this feat shouldn’t be treated as ED due to UES slop. The imaginary energy required didn’t come from nowhere

 

[BreezeHM]

@Voidnether @PedjaTarzan @BreezeHM @PlungingThroughTime

 

[Reiner04]

Does this mean you're also fine with the Star of Eden's Zeroth Power and Zephyro's white hole keeping their 2-A rating due to the fact that Honkai/Imaginary Energy is a UES, divine keys requiring Welt's own energy output, and both attacks requiring their own energy outputs in order for the attack to be that strong? The OP didnt propose against this but like 2 people here were.

Like @Jackof_noTrades068 explains it

If the end result is achieved through the combined power of both, that would still make each of them comparable to the end result, since multipliers do not work for Tier 2 and above.

 

[Mbpoops]

i dont see why either of them remotely scale. we have no proof of zephyro living or dying to the blast but we can assume since it "ruptured the cosmos" and ended elio's script that zephyro did die along with the rest of the universe. it would be weird to assume that everyone excluding (or including teehee) aeons died except zephyro when hes in point blank range of the blast, that would be assuming he has 2-A durability and since the verse uses UES it goes back to his AP which doesnt make sense. justification should just be change for both to:

"3-C, higher with white hole | 2-A upon colliding his white hole with a black hole"

"3-C, higher with Star of Eden | 2-A upon colliding Zeroth with a white hole"


everything else i think is fine

Bumping my initial response because this is still my stance

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

If the end result is achieved through the combined power of both, that would still make each of them comparable to the end result, since multipliers do not work for Tier 2 and above.

I kid you not, Krillin here jumps from 3 infinities to 6 infinities with Destructo Disc only

Krillin (DBS Anime)

Krillin or Kuririn (クリリン, Kuririn?) is a former monk of the Orin Temple who ran away to train under Master Roshi, eventually doing so alongside Son Goku, who would grow to become his best friend. Tier: 2-C, higher with Destructo Disc | 2-C, far higher with Destructo Disc Key: Tournament of Power...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Because there's still a Herrscher Core of Stars powering the damn thing and giving it the authority to make black holes.

No, Previous Era Divine Keys aren't effected by Kiana's embrace and removal of authority; they do cover this in story. It's just his energy enables him to use the divine key. The PE cores are dead and non-adaptable and thus it means they keep their authority... for plot reasons.

So it's more like Welt + SoE = SoE's output, but Welt obviously doesn't scale yet the SoE does as it's actually using Welt's energy and magnifying / adding it with its own.

But yeah Welt atleast shouldn't be scaling comparable without SOE anyways via this reason

 

[Mbpoops]

I just believe the 2-A scaling here is conditional. Having them at 2-A with SoE or white hole is assuming they have infinite output and since the verse runs on UES that would go back to their stats and this making their base 2-A.. i hope we see the issue here.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

I just believe the 2-A scaling here is conditional. Having them at 2-A with SoE or white hole is assuming they have infinite output and since the verse runs on UES that would go back to their stats and this making their base 2-A.. i hope we see the issue here.

Welt’s base no matter what doesnt scale back to SOE as for reasons above.

The only issue here would be Zephyro

Theres 2 routes to take this
1. The Krillin route where only white hole is rated 2-A like how Krillin only jumps to 6 infinites with destructo disc
2. We do scale Zephyro’s base to it because OP belieces Zephyro never died and survived the clash which supports the scaling. This shouldnt cause a scalechain issue either because almost no one chainscales back to Zephyro while the strongest Emanator above him, Silverwolf, does have her own feat putting her up there as well.

 

[Natsuki012]

I just believe the 2-A scaling here is conditional. Having them at 2-A with SoE or white hole is assuming they have infinite output and since the verse runs on UES that would go back to their stats and this making their base 2-A.. i hope we see the issue here.

It's likely that the two attacks had enough energy to nuke the cosmos, and the clash destroyed the universe due to their conflicting nature. Besides, it's their strongest move, so I don't think it would go back to their stats. Unless I'm mistaken

 

[Mbpoops]

Welt’s base no matter what doesnt scale back to SOE as for reasons above.

The only issue here would be Zephyro

Theres 2 routes to take this
1. The Krillin route where only white hole is rated 2-A like how Krillin only jumps to 6 infinites with destructo disc
2. We do scale Zephyro’s base to it because OP belieces Zephyro never died and survived the clash which supports the scaling. This shouldnt cause a scalechain issue either because almost no one chainscales back to Zephyro while the strongest Emanator above him, Silverwolf, does have her own feat putting her up there as well.

Or option 3 its conditional like i said in my first message.

The explosion only happens after the clash ends so the likely assumption would be that when the white hole’s singluarity and the black hole’s are clashing for X amount of time a reaction happens and it blows up the cosmos.

It makes no sense that the white hole or zeroth would scale to 2-A on their own when we know zeroth nor the white hole cant destroy the universe on their own not to mention the issues this adds to the hi3 scaling

Both welt and zephyro should go down to 3-c higher with white hole/zeroth with a conditional key for colliding with a white or black hole

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

It's likely that the two attacks had enough energy to nuke the cosmos, and the clash destroyed the universe due to their conflicting nature. Besides, it's their strongest move, so I don't think it would go back to their stats. Unless I'm mistaken

No, you can't explain this away with the 'black hole and the white hole' line.
I believe that the detonation of the two opposing forces destroying the galaxy can't be attributed to the clashing natures of the black hole and white hole alone - In this case, even a small black hole and white hole would mimic this feat as their natures still oppose each other. This obviously doesn't make sense. It's more likely that the two attacks combined had enough energy to destroy the cosmos, their opposing nature just made the two detonate and destroy the universe.

The voiceover even says the black holes 'devour each other' - More of a clue that the two combined their pools of energy and detonated, resulting in the destruction of the cosmos.

Yeah pretty it is AP applicable.

So its either we go with the krillin route or just grant Zephyro's base the rating then because almost no one chainscales back to him anyways and the ones that do are VERY situational and self contained within a specific key (Yeah no high schoolers are scaling back to this LMAO)

 

[Mbpoops]

Idk why ur trying to limit this to 2 options when the most likely one is that its a conditional feat zephyro has never been shown to do this alone or welt

 

[Mbpoops]

You would need extra proof that either the SoE or white hole can nuke the entire universe alone

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Idk why ur trying to limit this to 2 options when the most likely one is that its a conditional feat zephyro has never been shown to do this alone or welt

The explosion only happens after the clash ends so the likely assumption would be that when the white hole’s singluarity and the black hole’s are clashing for X amount of time a reaction happens and it blows up the cosmos.

No, you can't explain this away with the 'black hole and the white hole' line.
I believe that the detonation of the two opposing forces destroying the galaxy can't be attributed to the clashing natures of the black hole and white hole alone - In this case, even a small black hole and white hole would mimic this feat as their natures still oppose each other. This obviously doesn't make sense. It's more likely that the two attacks combined had enough energy to destroy the cosmos, their opposing nature just made the two detonate and destroy the universe.

The voiceover even says the black holes 'devour each other' - More of a clue that the two combined their pools of energy and detonated, resulting in the destruction of the cosmos.

It's likely that the two attacks had enough energy to nuke the cosmos, and the clash destroyed the universe due to their conflicting nature. Besides, it's their strongest move, so I don't think it would go back to their stats. Unless I'm mistaken

 

[Mbpoops]

It's likely that the two attacks had enough energy to nuke the cosmos, and the clash destroyed the universe due to their conflicting nature. Besides, it's their strongest move, so I don't think it would go back to their stats. Unless I'm mistaken

UES makes it go back to their stats because it assumed they apply infinite output (hense why its 2-A) even though thats illogical

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

UES makes it go back to their stats because it assumed they apply infinite output (hense why its 2-A) even though thats illogical

And the issue is? Literally no almost one scales back to Zephyro.

 

[Mbpoops]

Cant reply to the message but here.

The same infinite output that took 74 amber eras to nuke a galaxy?

The same infinite output that was fighting phantylia and aventurine? Mind you this goes back to the herrscher of stars because divine keys < the herrscher it’s based off so this completely ***** up hi3 scaling

 

[Mbpoops]

And the issue is? Literally no almost one scales back to Zephyro.

The issue is that its illogical, it doesnt matter if no one scsles back to it his scaling just doesnt make sense that would also be assuming that khaslana is 2-A because he fought zephyro

Welt would also be applying infinite output here into the SoE

 

[Natsuki012]

The same infinite output that took 74 amber eras to nuke a galaxy?

we are never given a timeframe

The issue is that its illogical, it doesnt matter if no one scsles back to it his scaling just doesnt make sense that would also be assuming that khaslana is 2-A because he fought zephyro

the same khaslana that he low diffed?

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

The same infinite output that took 74 amber eras to nuke a galaxy?

Literally not an anti feat because Zephyro didnt even try to slime the Galaxy in 1 ago. Do not derail this crt with amateur arguments. Even @Jackof_noTrades068 would slime you for making this argument.

The same infinite output that was fighting phantylia and aventurine? Mind you this goes back to the herrscher of stars because divine keys < the herrscher it’s based off so this completely ***** up hi3 scaling

PLUNGING LITERALLY EXPLAINED WHY WELT DOESN'T SCALE BACK TO SOE.

Because there's still a Herrscher Core of Stars powering the damn thing and giving it the authority to make black holes.

No, Previous Era Divine Keys aren't effected by Kiana's embrace and removal of authority; they do cover this in story. It's just his energy enables him to use the divine key. The PE cores are dead and non-adaptable and thus it means they keep their authority... for plot reasons.

So it's more like Welt + SoE = SoE's output, but Welt obviously doesn't scale yet the SoE does as it's actually using Welt's energy and magnifying / adding it with its own.

The issue is that its illogical, it doesnt matter if no one scsles back to it his scaling just doesnt make sense that would also be assuming that khaslana is 2-A because he fought zephyro

Welt would also be applying infinite output here into the SoE

1. Zephyro held back against Khaslana alot because hes TESTING him
2. NO ONE outside of Amphoreus scales back to Khaslana

And again plunging literally explained why Welt himself doesn’t scale back. Is he suddenly not reliable for HI3 information anymore?

 

[Reiner04]

I kid you not, Krillin here jumps from 3 infinities to 6 infinities with Destructo Disc only

Krillin (DBS Anime)

Krillin or Kuririn (クリリン, Kuririn?) is a former monk of the Orin Temple who ran away to train under Master Roshi, eventually doing so alongside Son Goku, who would grow to become his best friend. Tier: 2-C, higher with Destructo Disc | 2-C, far higher with Destructo Disc Key: Tournament of Power...

vsbattles.fandom.com

That is weird. I am P sure UES doesn't allow Energy attacks scales higher than physicals under normal circumstances. Unless there is more to it in the scene.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

That is weird. I am P sure UES doesn't allow Energy attacks scales higher than physicals under normal circumstances. Unless there is more to it in the scene.

Im fine with either options because Welt himself doesnt scale back to SOE almost no one scales back to Zephyro to cause a verse wide chainscale and OP himself believes Zephyro survived the clash

Do you know which option do you prefer?

 

[Mbpoops]

Im fine with either options because Welt himself doesnt scale back to SOE almost no one scales back to Zephyro to cause a verse wide chainscale and OP himself believes Zephyro survived the clash

Do you know which option do you prefer?

Welt would scale back if ur assuming that SoE and white hole are 2-A because you’re assuming they apply an infinite output into their attacks

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Also for the argument that this is the result 2 singularities clashing. Theres a reason why the wiki doesnt automatically give people High 3-A for creating small blackholes in the first place.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Welt would scale back if ur assuming that SoE and white hole are 2-A because you’re assuming they apply an infinite output into their attacks

No because plunging explicitly explained why Welt himself doesn’t scale to SOE

 

[Natsuki012]

Im fine with either options because Welt himself doesnt scale back to SOE almost no one scales back to Zephyro to cause a verse wide chainscale and OP himself believes Zephyro survived the clash

Do you know which option do you prefer?

i would prefer to just leave at 2A with white hole; also, it's not implied that zephyro survived

 

[Mbpoops]

Literally not an anti feat because Zephyro didnt even try to slime the Galaxy in 1 ago. Do not derail this crt with amateur arguments. Even @Jackof_noTrades068 would slime you for making this argument.


PLUNGING LITERALLY EXPLAINED WHY WELT DOESN'T SCALE BACK TO SOE.

And i dont agree

1. Zephyro held back against Khaslana alot because hes TESTING him

Held back infinity? How do we quantify how much he held back? You cant.

2. NO ONE outside of Amphoreus scales back to Khaslana

Cyrene

And again plunging literally explained why Welt himself doesn’t scale back. Is he suddenly not reliable for HI3 information anymore?

I dont agree because welt is literally applying his own energy into the SoE thats how he uses attacks with it ur saying the SoE has output without welt

 

[Mbpoops]

No because plunging explicitly explained why Welt himself doesn’t scale to SOE

Thats assuming its not an infinite output however in this case it is

 

[Mbpoops]

Also for the argument that this is the result 2 singularities clashing. Theres a reason why the wiki doesnt automatically give people High 3-A for creating small blackholes in the first place.

Why does this have any corrilation? These are 2 completely opposite singularities colliding with eachother and exploding white holes arent even real and this is mihoyo’s interpretation on what would happen if a white hole and black hold collided

 

[Reiner04]

• Reply to a Honkai thread.
• Immediately regrets it.

 

[Mbpoops]

i would prefer to just leave at 2A with white hole; also, it's not implied that zephyro survived

I prefer it conditional because he literally would be nuking the universe every time he uses the attack

 

[Natsuki012]

• Reply to a Honkai thread.
• Immediately regrets it.

get ready for more 5 pages lol

 

[Mbpoops]

• Reply to a Honkai thread.
• Immediately regrets it.

Sorry weinaaaa

i just dont see how any of this makes sense applying UES we clearly see them colliding and the universe only exploded after the clash ended im not sure why either would scale to this other than it being a conditional feat since neither can do it alone

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

And i dont agree

Good for you the rest of the planet agrees

Held back infinity? How do we quantify how much he held back? You cant.

You cried wolf that Zephyro would instantly slime someone on the spot with a White Hole yet you're saying this when when Zephyro himself wanted to test Khaslana and held back on purpose. Keep in mind he had NUMEROUS chances to kill Khaslana and chose not to. He even WATCHED Khaslana get up to face him again

Also you're a Dragon Ball Supporter. Do not act like you can't hold back infinity when Goku LITERALLY holds back his base to the point gun shots hurt him. Unless youre saying 2-C bullets

The fact of the matter is that we can assume Zephyro held back to Khaslana's level for the fight to happen.

Cyrene

Whats the issue. Ascended heirs are self-isolated within their singular new key and do not scale back to anyone else. Yes there are no high schoolers that will be scaling here. The heirs scalings are VERY situational and specific for there to be any chain scaling back to her

I dont agree because welt is literally applying his own energy into the SoE thats how he uses attacks with it ur saying the SoE has output without welt

And Welt
1. Clearly does not scale back to it
2. SOE magnifies the power by a shit ton
3. Literally almost dies whether its used like that

Why does this have any corrilation? These are 2 completely opposite singularities colliding with eachother and exploding white holes arent even real and this is mihoyo’s interpretation on what would happen if a white hole and black hold collided

More like its YOUR interpretation of what Mihoyo is feeling. You literally tried this interpretation argument by listing 5 different alleged colors to prove that the holes were merging just to realize it was the White Hole's.

Fact of the matter is that its their energy output that caused it and theres a reason why small ass tic tac sized singularities dont get High 3-A

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Also what kind of holes IRL acts like a dragon ball ki beam clash

 

[Natsuki012]

Also what kind of holes IRL acts like a dragon ball ki beam clash

I'm pretty sure a black hole would swallow the white hole

 

[Mbpoops]

Good for you the rest of the planet agrees

You cried wolf that Zephyro would instantly slime someone on the spot with a White Hole yet you're saying this when when Zephyro himself wanted to test Khaslana and held back on purpose. Keep in mind he had NUMEROUS chances to kill Khaslana and chose not to. He even WATCHED Khaslana get up to face him again

He didnt want to test khaslana he was tasked to but that doesnt mean he initially knows how strong khaslana is and if he was there to test him would that not mean khaslana is relative? I mean nanook couldve asked any one of his other lord ravangers to test him

Also you're a Dragon Ball Supporter. Do not act like you can't hold back infinity when Goku LITERALLY holds back his base to the point gun shots hurt him. Unless youre saying 2-C bullets

An off guard feat..? Why are we bringing dragon ball into this? Zephyro didnt off guard khaslana and vise versa

The fact of the matter is that we can assume Zephyro held back to Khaslana's level for the fight to happen.

Does zephyro know how strong he is prior to the fight?

Whats the issue. Ascended heirs are self-isolated within their singular new key and do not scale back to anyone else. Yes there are no high schoolers that will be scaling here. The heirs scalings are VERY situational and specific for there to be any chain scaling back to her

1x coreflame = 2-A because tb can fight irontomb who scales back to cyrene and this goes back to lygus making all emanators 2-A

And Welt
1. Clearly does not scale back to it
2. SOE magnifies the power by a shit ton
3. Literally almost dies whether its used like that

So ur ok with 2-A hi3 cast oke

More like its YOUR interpretation of what Mihoyo is feeling. You literally tried this interpretation argument by listing 5 different alleged colors to prove that the holes were merging just to realize it was the White Hole's.

Not even relevant to my current argument

Fact of the matter is that its their energy output that caused it and theres a reason why small ass tic tac sized singularities dont get High 3-A

Again this isnt relevant at all

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

He didnt want to test khaslana he was tasked to but that doesnt mean he initially knows how strong khaslana is and if he was there to test him would that not mean khaslana is relative? I mean nanook couldve asked any one of his other lord ravangers to test him

I don't know how any of this is debunks Khaslana not scaling to Zephyro? Hell even YOU made fun of the idea that they scale to each other yet here you are purposely trying to make it sound like Zephyro went full power all of a sudden . Prove Zephyro used anywhere near his actual strength and not just him holding back to match Khaslana (Its not like he wasnt literally watching him crash out against void rangers)

An off guard feat..? Why are we bringing dragon ball into this? Zephyro didnt off guard khaslana and vise versa

Bro said off guard feat. Want me to use 2-C Bulma next because her slaps legitimately hurt a heavily suppressed Goku. The entire point is that you CAN suppress it. The only reason why you don't like it being brought up because it goes against your argument and you'd be forced to nuke DB if you genuinely believed in that argument lol.

Does zephyro know how strong he is prior to the fight?

He watched Khaslana fight an army of antimatter legion. Of course he does.

1x coreflame = 2-A because tb can fight irontomb who scales back to cyrene and this goes back to lygus making all emanators 2-A

Wtf. Why would Ascended Heir Tb scale back to Late Amphoreus Tb. They're explicitly stronger than before ,

You're the only one who's specifically trying to invent a scaling issue out of nothing for whatever reason.

So ur ok with 2-A hi3 cast oke

If they scale sure as long as it isn't vibe scaling like what is happening here right now with invented scaling problems. Not like it matters anyways since yall still havent updated any of their ratings and is currently using outdated ratings rn

Not even relevant to my current argument

It's your interpretation of how you think someone else is interpretating something. It's irrelevant. This is a textbook Ki Blast esc beam clash.

Again this isnt relevant at all

It is considering how your logic equates to tic tac sized singularities blowing up Infinite universes, let alone a 2-A one.

 

[Voidnether]

God of War CRT: Primordial Overhaul

Okay, so now, the aspect mind of NEP1 means that entity must be mindless? It's strange that some characters with NEP1, which includes aspect mind, are still able to think. make a CRT and have it removed.

vsbattles.com

IX is explicitly stated to be nothingness, nonexistence that's the opposite of existence which is reality (which includes minds by default or mental cognition). IX seems to have a sentient thought per the scans I gave above which actually would make this NEP3 instead of being NEP1, don't really know if you could have both at the same time but IX is clearly not mindless yet it lacks a mind which I think NEP3 is best supported further here.

This is for IX's NEP3

 

[Voidnether]

So, this is just one of the case where Destructive Capacity feats is being conflated to the energy output. 24 planet's output here is through Chadwick's Imaginary Implosion Pulse, not the ones below in particular (Emanator):

It was directly stated in particular that Emanators colliding would yield in a greater output than Chadwick's bombs that could destroy 24 planets, which is to say that this relates to Amphoreus itself as the previous discussion before this was talking about a Lord Ravager, I suggest watching to the end:
March 7th's statement to say in particular is untrustworthy in this scenario, because it's not just as simple as The Herta destroying the entirety of Amphoreus and preventing Irontomb's birth but rather if The Herta chose this. Well, the yield would be greater.

And finally, we have these:



I believe I don't have to explain (Scepter > Technology capable of capturing Imaginary Energy, in which they used it to capture Path power of a Pathstrider and they said it wasn't strong enough so they tried to capture the Path power of an Emanator instead LMAO)

Lastly, we have a confirmation that Amphoreus is an Emperor's Scepter, to be precise it's the first Scepter ever made by Rubert II > All the other Emperor's Scepter:

This thread explains why Irontomb > Emperor's Scepter > Unworthy Scepters capable of annihilating a whole galaxy in the scan:

Honkai: Star Rail — 3-B + Additions

This calculation is accepted. Scepters are technology created by Rubert II, the Pathstrider of Erudition, and are "poor imitations" of Nous for the unworthy scepters like the Emperor's sword. Scepter δ-me13, the first scepter, is directly part of Nous and destroyed the universe (1-B feat). The...

vsbattles.com

Basically: Irontomb is capable of wiping out the entire universe, Emperor's Scepter is capable of wiping out half of the universe and the Unworthy Scepters are capable of wiping out a whole galaxy. Emanators are "upscaled" from the Unworthy Scepters previously not only because of UES, but because the Unworthy Scepters are deemed the highest "Pathstrider" feat. Though one could argue the Emperor's Scepter that's capable of wiping out half the universe is also the highest Pathstrider feat since it was done by Rubert II, a Pathstrider of Erudition.

This is for the Scepter