Kratos vs Yhwach

[Jin2188]

Yhwach can't copy his abilities either cause his magic is a Type 1 concept, which doesn't exist in Bleach.

Lord, I thought we addressed this already in Saitama vs Yhwach.

The idea that you have to prove Saitama can "specifically copy fate manip" to claim he can is hilariously absurd. Restricting copy characters to abilities they already copied defeats the entire purpose of copying.

You 100% can infer whether a character can copy an ability off of context clues and mechanics of what they already copied. It'd only be a NLF to claim he can copy ANYTHING but inferring it from what we know is completely acceptable.

 

[Jin2188]

Kairos Fateweaver

Kairos Fateweaver is the personal vizier of the Chaos God Tzeentch and a powerful Lord of Change. In order for Tzeentch to figure out what was at the heart of the Well of Eternity, a well which sat at the center of the Impossible Fortress and the place from which all of time and space is said to...

vsbattles.fandom.com

I got the match for Yhwach tho!

Hmm, interesting. Seems like Yhwach AP stomps though.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Lord, I thought we addressed this already in Saitama vs Yhwach.

It is much, much, MUCH ******* different with the higher-end haxes. Conceptual Manipulation, Plot Manipulation, Information Manipulation, etcetera needs hard proof of being able to be copied, else it just turns into a huge No Limits Fallacy.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Hmm, interesting. Seems like Yhwach AP stomps though.

Kairos has 1-A hax all around, he'll be fine with big AP diffs

 

[Planck69]

Lord, I thought we addressed this already in Saitama vs Yhwach.

I don't know why you're quoting this post as thought its a policy page. Fundamental information and Type 1 concepts are metaphysical aspects beyond anything showcased in Bleach, and it is NLF to assume it can be copied.

This isn't mind vs soul hax two something adjacent abilities.

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

There are entire sections of that same page dedicated to why Soul Magic is information/concept, the power section is just a short hand.

And it's inherent to his magic/soul. He doesn't have to "activate" it.

Yhwach can't copy his abilities either cause his magic is a Type 1 concept, which doesn't exist in Bleach.

Clone spam is something he already handled and they had his own powers to boot.

Firstly, wild that Pernida has Type 1 Info Manip. Genuinely no idea how it has that lol

I'm still lost as to why this would oneshot. If anything, the layers of the actual soul manipulating seem more dangerous than anything to do with the concepts or information (Especially since it seems like they're specific to GoW things and how souls work there. Especially in the case of things like powernull).

So let's say he goes to rush Yhwach down. Seems in-character for him to charge right in.

The Miracle could be argued to make power copying possible anyway, but that argument probably wouldn't end well. Regardless, even if Yhwach can't copy most/all of his abilities, he can still perfectly copy his stats, which will immediately start rising.

Did they have his powers but better? Arguably irrelevant now, but still possibly important down the line. idek how a developer would code such a thing into a game and make it fair, but I wouldn't rule it out.

 

[Planck69]

Firstly, wild that Pernida has Type 1 Info Manip. Genuinely no idea how it has that lol

I'm still lost as to why this would oneshot. If anything, the layers of the actual soul manipulating seem more dangerous than anything to do with the concepts or information (Especially since it seems like they're specific to GoW things and how souls work there. Especially in the case of things like powernull).

So let's say he goes to rush Yhwach down. Seems in-character for him to charge right in.

The Miracle could be argued to make power copying possible anyway, but that argument probably wouldn't end well. Regardless, even if Yhwach can't copy most/all of his abilities, he can still perfectly copy his stats, which will immediately start rising.

Did they have his powers but better? Arguably irrelevant now, but still possibly important down the line. idek how a developer would code such a thing into a game and make it fair, but I wouldn't rule it out.

It would oneshot because Yhwach doesn't resist info 2/concept hax. That's it.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Firstly, wild that Pernida has Type 1 Info Manip. Genuinely no idea how it has that lol

I'm still lost as to why this would oneshot. If anything, the layers of the actual soul manipulating seem more dangerous than anything to do with the concepts or information (Especially since it seems like they're specific to GoW things and how souls work there. Especially in the case of things like powernull).

So let's say he goes to rush Yhwach down. Seems in-character for him to charge right in.

The Miracle could be argued to make power copying possible anyway, but that argument probably wouldn't end well. Regardless, even if Yhwach can't copy most/all of his abilities, he can still perfectly copy his stats, which will immediately start rising.

Did they have his powers but better? Arguably irrelevant now, but still possibly important down the line. idek how a developer would code such a thing into a game and make it fair, but I wouldn't rule it out.

They literally can't copy Kratos' PnA that matters. It's literally a case of just being too high-end to copy without proof.

It would oneshot because Yhwach doesn't resist info 2/concept hax. That's it.

Also this.

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

An army. That Kratos can one-shot on accident via hax by trying to AoE out Yhwach himself.

Kratos can oneshot himself but better?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Kratos can oneshot himself but infinitely worse?

Yes.

 

[Planck69]

Kratos can oneshot himself but better?

If they lack his powers/resistances? Yes, lol.

 

[Jin2188]

It is much, much, MUCH ******* different with the higher-end haxes. Conceptual Manipulation, Plot Manipulation, Information Manipulation, etcetera needs hard proof of being able to be copied, else it just turns into a huge No Limits Fallacy.

Fair, but he already nullified/possibly copied Type 2 concept manip, so him copying Type 1 concept manip isn't off the table.

Type 1 isn't stronger than Type 2. At the very least, it shouldn't be. And even if it were, we still shouldn't rule out Yhwach at least partially being able to copy it, lest we go against the whole point of copying.

 

[Jin2188]

Yes.

That is foul lmao

 

[Planck69]

Fair, but he already nullified/possibly copied Type 2 concept manip, so him copying Type 1 concept manip isn't off the table.

Type 1 isn't stronger than Type 2. At the very least, it shouldn't be. And even if it were, we still shouldn't rule out Yhwach at least partially being able to copy it, lest we go against the whole point of copying.

Type 1 very much is higher than Type 2, so you do need proof of him being able to copy it (even as simple as Type 1 existing in Bleach, which it does not).

Also, why would he assume partial copy?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Fair, but he already nullified/possibly copied Type 2 concept manip, so him copying Type 1 concept manip isn't off the table.

Type 1 isn't stronger than Type 2. At the very least, it shouldn't be. And even if it were, we still shouldn't rule out Yhwach at least partially being able to copy it, lest we go against the whole point of copying.

Type 1 is far more inherent than type 2 though.

Think of it like this: Type 2 governs a thing in a limited area, type 1 governs a thing in an unlimited area. One is infinitely stronger than the other, even if they're inherently different.

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

It would oneshot because Yhwach doesn't resist info 2/concept hax. That's it.

In that case, this thread seems like spite. However, I still need to ask how The Miracle factors into this.

The Miracle makes the impossible possible. That's it. It manifests in various ways against Gerard's own fight, most impressibly when he just says 'no' to Toshiro's power negation, which I also think disproves that it's just regeneration or whatever people like to say it is. This is very much NLF, but IIRC Simon the Digger and Medaka Kurokami are just accepted to have similar abilities. Ignoring that Yhwach casually ignored this, whatever that says about him, The Almighty, or The Miracle, could this allow Yhwach to copy the powers?

This is a hypothetical question. You can call it NLF or whatever (It very much is NLF lmao, that's kind of the point of the power. Gerard's cross is in a similar situation, only it has the limit that Ichigo specifically could probably cut it, but that's completely irrelevant here), but I would like an answer to the question regardless.

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

Kairos Fateweaver

Kairos Fateweaver is the personal vizier of the Chaos God Tzeentch and a powerful Lord of Change. In order for Tzeentch to figure out what was at the heart of the Well of Eternity, a well which sat at the center of the Impossible Fortress and the place from which all of time and space is said to...

vsbattles.fandom.com

I got the match for Yhwach tho!

Interesting

 

[Planck69]

Type 1 is far more inherent than type 2 though.

Think of it like this: Type 2 governs a thing in a limited area, type 1 governs a thing in an unlimited area. One is infinitely stronger than the other, even if they're inherently different.

Keeping it even simpler, Type 2 is bound by reality. I can nuke the Type 2 concept of apples by nuking all apples. Type 1 is unbound by reality. Form of The Apple doesn't care if reality exists or not.

 

[Jin2188]

Type 1 very much is higher than Type 2, so you do need proof of him being able to copy it (even as simple as Type 1 existing in Bleach, which it does not).

Why? The only difference is that one is bound to its particulars, while the other is not. I've seen fictional cosmologies and philosophical frameworks where dependent concepts are actually above independent ones, so if Type 1 is stronger by default, it really shouldn't be.

Also, why would he assume partial copy?

Why should we assume copying is a binary "he can copy it or he can't" in absence of explicit statements of it functioning that way? You're the one making the assumption here.

Type 1 is far more inherent than type 2 though.

Think of it like this: Type 2 governs a thing in a limited area, type 1 governs a thing in an unlimited area. One is infinitely stronger than the other, even if they're inherently different.

Uh... no?

1. Independent Universal Concepts: Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.

2. Dependent Concepts: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract dependent concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality. This, however, does not qualify for this form of conceptual manipulation, and is rather treated as a by-product of another action akin to a "domino effect". This type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, destroying humanity and thus "ending the concept of humanity" would not qualify, while directly "ending the concept of humanity" and thus destroying humanity would qualify.

They both govern all reality within their areas of influence. Idk what you're talking about here.

Keeping it even simpler, Type 2 is bound by reality. I can nuke the Type 2 concept of apples by nuking all apples. Type 1 is unbound by reality. Form of The Apple doesn't care if reality exists or not.

Yeah but "nuking all apples" doesn't count for concept manip, even if it's Type 2. Only manipulation of the concept itself matters, so I don't see what point you're trying to make here.

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

This reminds me of when I got involved in my Father vs Lucy thread. No idea how that matchup goes, these days.

 

[Planck69]

In that case, this thread seems like spite. However, I still need to ask how The Miracle factors into this.

The Miracle makes the impossible possible. That's it. It manifests in various ways against Gerard's own fight, most impressibly when he just says 'no' to Toshiro's power negation, which I also think disproves that it's just regeneration or whatever people like to say it is. This is very much NLF, but IIRC Simon the Digger and Medaka Kurokami are just accepted to have similar abilities. Ignoring that Yhwach casually ignored this, whatever that says about him, The Almighty, or The Miracle, could this allow Yhwach to copy the powers?

This is a hypothetical question. You can call it NLF or whatever (It very much is NLF lmao, that's kind of the point of the power. Gerard's cross is in a similar situation, only it has the limit that Ichigo specifically could probably cut it, but that's completely irrelevant here), but I would like an answer to the question regardless.

I mean, I agree it is a stomp lol.

For the rest, no. Setting aside that this is NLF (see my, DaReaper and Jin's convo), even if I humored it, this just sounds like reality warping + potent probability manipulation and GoW magic can also accomplish that.

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

I mean, I agree it is a stomp lol.

For the rest, no. Setting aside that this is NLF (see my, DaReaper and Jin's convo), even if I humored it, this just sounds like reality warping + potent probability manipulation and GoW magic can also accomplish that.

Should this be closed, then?

 

[Planck69]

Why? The only difference is that one is bound to its particulars, while the other is not. I've seen fictional cosmologies and philosophical frameworks where dependent concepts are actually above independent ones, so if Type 1 is stronger by default, it really shouldn't be.

Why should we assume copying is a binary "he can copy it or he can't" in absence of explicit statements of it functioning that way? You're the one making the assumption here.

Uh... no?


They both govern all reality within their areas of influence. Idk what you're talking about here.

Yeah but "nuking all apples" doesn't count for concept manip, even if it's Type 2. Only manipulation of the concept itself matters, so I don't see what point you're trying to make here.

Then change that with a revision thread. As it currently stands, the Concept types are a hierarchy of potency on the page.

And we very much do have it as binary, what? You have to prove it can partially copy something like that. The default is that without proof, it plainly cannot do anything.

My point is that the Type 2 concept of apples can be changed by me just destroying all apples while the Type 1 equivalent is immune to any changes to the object in reality.

 

[Kellex]

Father vs Lucy

Father from Fullmetal Alchemist?

 

[DaReaperMan]

They both govern all reality within their areas of influence. Idk what you're talking about here.

Who's higher-up in the United States of America? The President or a Senator?

Just because you might be able to deal with one, the other can't be dealt with. You are assuming Yhwach can copy something infinitely better than anything in all of Bleach. That is a textbook No Limits Fallacy.

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

Father from Fullmetal Alchemist?

Yes.
Last I remember, the conciet was that Father was much stronger and had much better hax, but Lucy's Vectors were so fast that she would percieve him as a statue, and thus just kill him over and over until he ran out of souls.

 

[Jin2188]

Who's higher-up in the United States of America? The President or a Senator?

Just because you might be able to deal with one, the other can't be dealt with. You are assuming Yhwach can copy something infinitely better than anything in all of Bleach. That is a textbook No Limits Fallacy.

That's a really bad analogy. The Type 1 concept of an apple and the Type 2 concept of an apple are the same thing, and they govern the same particulars. The only difference is that one is bound to it's particulars, while the other is not. That's it.

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

Who's higher-up in the United States of America? The President or a Senator?

Just because you might be able to deal with one, the other can't be dealt with. You are assuming Yhwach can copy something infinitely better than anything in all of Bleach. That is a textbook No Limits Fallacy.

I mean, Yhwach could copy a power better than any other Bleach character, since he has two power-copying abilities, one of which he can use to continuously strengthen the other. But yeah, he can't copy powers infinitely better than the rest of Bleach.

 

[DaReaperMan]

That's a really bad analogy. The Type 1 concept of an apple and the Type 2 concept of an apple are the same thing, and they govern the same particulars. The only difference is that one is bound to it's particulars, while the other is not. That's it.

No Limits Fallacy (NLF)​

This is when someone states that because something has not demonstrated any limits (or only certain limits) then it has none (or only the ones demonstrated).

 

[Planck69]

This debate makes me realize that there's people who unironically think that the concept types are just cosmetic. Like, even if you think that, that is not how we treat them.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Funnily enough, even if Yhwach by some miracle could copy type 1 concepts, he still can't copy type 2 information which is another beast entirely to CM.

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

Funnily enough, even if Yhwach by some miracle could copy type 1 concepts, he still can't copy type 2 information which is another beast entirely to CM.

This reminds me that Pernida has Type 1 information. I'm gonna need to skim its profile to see how.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Concept Type 1 isn't necessarily more powerful than Type 2. They're just different types.

I agree with this but wiki precedent is just to arbitrarily treat type 1 as superior despite simply preceding granting no greater power or make up of said concept.

If they were forms they would be 1-A.

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

I agree with this but wiki precedent is just to arbitrarily treat type 1 as superior despite simply preceding granting no greater power or make up of said concept.

The logic sounds...well, sound. Type 1 is independent of reality while Type 2 is dependent on it.

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

If they were forms they would be 1-A.

Trust me, I've seen way weirder on this wiki.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

The logic sounds...well, sound. Type 1 is independent of reality while Type 2 is dependent on it.

which doesn't really give much in my eyes unless they're independent in specific way in which gives actual superiority (like a low 1-A or 1-A concept)

 

[Planck69]

Anyway, anyone has issues with me closing this? Soul Magic's nature neuters most of Yhwach's options. Unless we argue that his EE is enough to not make this a stomp.

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

which doesn't really give much in my eyes unless they're independent in specific way in which gives actual superiority (like a low 1-A or 1-A concept)

God of War, from what I can tell, very much is 1-A.

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

Anyway, anyone has issues with me closing this? Soul Magic's nature neuters most of Yhwach's options. Unless we argue that his EE is enough to not make this a stomp.

Wait, EE is the one thing Kratos doesn't resist?
Qualkreis for the win/j

 

[Planck69]

God of War, from what I can tell, very much is 1-A.

God of War is not Outerverse level lol, let's not get crazy now.