One Piece | Pre-Timeskip Luffy Inconsistencies

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Introduction​

This CRT is meant to address several issues with Pre-Timeskip Luffy’s current scaling. The purpose of this thread is not to overhaul every One Piece profile at once. Instead, this will focus specifically on Luffy’s Pre-Timeskip profile and the pieces of scaling that currently appear to be unsupported, circular, or misapplied.

Because Luffy’s profile relies on scaling from several other Pre-Timeskip characters, some related profiles may need to be discussed as well. However, the main focus here is still Luffy.

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Spoiler: Pre-Timeskip Luffy Scaling Issues

1. Hypersonic+ Speed

Luffy currently receives Hypersonic+ speed from two feats.

1. The first issue is the explosion-dodging feat. Luffy does not appear to dodge the explosion itself. Rather, he dodges the initial attack, and the explosion happens afterward. This means the feat should not be treated as Luffy reacting to or moving away from the explosion after it began.
   1. The anime shows this.
2. The second issue is the stretching feat. This measures the speed of Luffy’s rubber ability extending, which would at most apply to his attack speed with that specific action. It should not automatically scale to his normal movement speed or travel speed.

Proposed change:
Remove or revise the Hypersonic+ rating unless better support is provided. If the stretching feat is kept, it should be specified as attack speed only.

2. Class K Lifting Strength

Luffy’s Class K Lifting Strength is currently based on the force of one of his attacks.

The issue is that attack potency or striking force should not automatically translate into lifting strength. Being able to hit with a certain level of force does not mean a character can lift, pull, or physically support an equivalent amount of weight.

Proposed change:
Remove the Class K lifting strength justification unless a direct lifting, pulling, or restraining feat supports it.

3. Town Level Alabasta Scaling

Luffy’s Town level Alabasta scaling comes from Crocodile, who scales through Nico Robin and Pell.

1. The issue is that Nico Robin did not harm Pell through a conventional strike or attack. She restrained and constricted him with her Devil Fruit ability. That kind of feat is more closely related to grappling/lifting strength than attack potency.
2. Because of this, Robin restraining Pell should not be used to scale her attack potency or durability. As a result, Crocodile should not scale to Town level through Robin, and Luffy should not inherit that rating through Crocodile.

Proposed change:
Remove the Town level scaling chain based on Robin restraining Pell, unless there is a separate AP-based justification for Crocodile and Alabasta Luffy.

4. Massively Hypersonic+ Skypiea Speed

Luffy’s Massively Hypersonic+ speed partly comes from him covering his face in response to Enel’s lightning.

There are two issues with this.

First, even if accepted, this would only support reaction speed. It should not automatically scale to combat speed, attack speed, or travel speed.

Second, the scene appears to show Luffy covering his face after the lightning attack has already reached or engulfed him. If that is the case, then it is not a valid lightning reaction feat.

There is also an issue with the Wyper scaling chain. Wyper’s speed appears to rely on scaling to Ohm, Shura, Satori, and others, but the chain loops back into itself. The only possible outside support seems to come from Zala noticing lightning before it struck, but the lightning had not actually begun to move when she turned her head.

Therefore, this also does not appear to be a valid lightning reaction feat.

Proposed change:
Remove the Massively Hypersonic+ rating unless a non-circular and direct speed feat supports it. If any lightning-related reactions are kept, they should be limited to reaction speed only.

6. Small City Level Skypiea Attack Potency

Luffy’s Skypiea rating currently relies on scaling involving Wyper, Enel, Zoro, and the Burn Bazooka.

There are several issues with this.

First, Wyper’s Burn Bazooka is a weapon-based attack. Scaling to or above Wyper physically does not automatically mean scaling to the full power of the Burn Bazooka, since the weapon’s output is not necessarily Wyper’s own physical strength.

Second, Wyper’s durability being scaled from the Reject Dial backlash is questionable. There does not appear to be a clear statement that the backlash is equal to the full potency of the attack. Without that, the Reject Dial should not automatically scale Wyper’s durability to the attack’s output.

Third, Luffy’s scaling to Nami’s durability does not help here, because Nami does not appear to have independent Small City level durability in the key being referred.

Fourth, Enel countering Wyper’s Burn Bazooka with a specific named technique does not mean every one of Enel’s attacks scales to that same level. A specific technique being used to counter another specific attack should not automatically scale Enel’s casual attacks, nor should it automatically scale Luffy unless Luffy directly clashes with the same level of attack.

Proposed change:
Remove Luffy’s Small City level Skypiea scaling from Wyper’s Burn Bazooka unless a direct and non-weapon-based scaling chain is provided.

7. Island Level Enies Lobby Scaling

Luffy’s Island level scaling currently comes from matching Blueno and later scaling to Rob Lucci. The profile specifically cites Luffy matching or overpowering Blueno’s Rokushiki, matching Base Lucci’s raw strength.

The issue is that this scaling chain does not appear to be clearly supported.

Blueno’s Island level scaling seems to come from attacking Franky, but the relevant Franky key does not appear to have Island level durability. If Franky is not Island level in that key, then Blueno should not scale to Island level from harming him.

There is also a broader issue with CP9 Doriki scaling. The Doriki-based scaling blog is outdated, and the values currently used on the profiles no longer match the blog, so the chain should not be used until it is updated and made internally consistent.

This creates a problem for Luffy’s Island level rating, because his Enies Lobby scaling relies on Blueno and Base Lucci, who supposedly scales to 9.36 gigatons. I can’t trace the source for that value, though, because the Doriki Blog is outdated and doesn’t include anything that reaches the gigaton range.

The value might be linked to Sanji or Usopp, but that creates its own problems. Sanji scales back into CP9 and Gecko Moria, while Moria scales to Oars, who then scales to Sanji and Zoro. Zoro, in turn, scales back into CP9 and Ryuma, even though Ryuma himself is not Island level.

Usopp has a similar issue. He scales from Daruma, who scales from Chopper, who then scales back into Zoro.

Proposed change:
Re-evaluate the Island-level Enies Lobby scaling. If the Doriki chain and Franky/Blueno scaling cannot be properly supported, Luffy’s Enies Lobby ratings should be revised to whatever value is supported by direct feats or currently accepted non-circular scaling.

This CRT is mainly intended to identify the issues and determine what ratings are actually supported by direct feats and valid scaling.

 

[Damage3245]

The issues raised by the OP appear valid to me, though I will wait to see what other supporters have to say on them.

 

[Saqphire]

Agree with all of these, and PTS Luffy has more inconsistencies than that.

His Relativistic scaling on his last speed key, which comes from these feats, are wrong because of several reasons:
1. The first calc gets the size scaling of the hand from proportional scaling, but that proportional scaling only works on regular humans with a consistent proportion. Kuma is not a proportional human, the mf is 6.66 metres tall with small limbs and a giant torso.
2. Kuma in Saobody (as well as all the Revolutionaries) is explicitly known to not try to kill the Straw Hats, so we don't need to assume Kuma aimed directly at Luffy to necessitate a dodge, Kuma could've easily aimed for the ground, launching Luffy to the side by the explosion as a result (which would invalidate the feat).
We also don't know if Luffy moved before the explosion took place (and the anime scene isn't canon because it's pre-Wano)

3. The second calc assumes Luffy jumped as the laser beam crossed the distance, but we see Luffy finish the distance when the beam had already landed, meaning Luffy got outsped by the beam here. The real speed is Luffy dodging the explosion which would also be dubious because the perspective blatantly shows that the Pacifista literally missed Luffy

 

[EtherealCrater]

The issue is that Nico Robin did not harm Pell through a conventional strike or attack. She restrained and constricted him with her Devil Fruit ability. That kind of feat is more closely related to grappling/lifting strength than attack potency.

It would still require AP to harm Pell, saying that it isn't a valid AP feat despite Robin leaving Pell like this is just ridiculous. Robin quite literally breaks bones when she does her grapples but sure not AP just LS.

First, even if accepted, this would only support reaction speed. It should not automatically scale to combat speed, attack speed, or travel speed.

It would still be Attack Speed at the bare minimum as the only thing that would prevent it is just Luffy changing the direction he moves his arm; Travel speed is also irrelevant because none of Luffy's speed values are travel speed. If Luffy can move his arm at x speed in one direction, he can move it at the same speed in a different direction.

First, Wyper’s Burn Bazooka is a weapon-based attack. Scaling to or above Wyper physically does not automatically mean scaling to the full power of the Burn Bazooka, since the weapon’s output is not necessarily Wyper’s own physical strength.

This line of scaling comes from Luffy being able to take the Burn Bazooka's blasts and being able to match each other physically. It does NOT start from assuming Burn Bazooka = Wyper's physicals.

Second, the scene appears to show Luffy covering his face after the lightning attack has already reached or engulfed him. If that is the case, then it is not a valid lightning reaction feat.

If you actually look at the panel where Luffy covers his face, he has no burn marks from the lightning until after it hits him. There's also light clearly coming from in front of him, if he was completely engulfed, he would be fully illuminated from all sides.

7. Island Level Enies Lobby Scaling

All of this comes from this thread. It is your responsibility to understand the contents of the material before trying to remove anything.

 

[Arceus0x]

I'd rather you linked the calcs at least when talking about the values.
Anyways, the stretching feat, right? Luffy's actual attacks are consistently faster or at least equal to his stretching speed, meaning that anyone who can react and parry his stretching attacks can then scale to that speed and thus luffy's combat speed would also scale if he fights the person in question.


To add to this, if I remember it correctly he can attack without having to stretch back first and there's no reason for that to not be comparable to his back stretching.

I do agree that the travel speed is lower.

 

[KingTempest]

Also Skypiea scales from a triage of Wyper Zoro and Luffy calcs. All in the same ballpark of speed

I’ll send them when I get home

I’ll tackle the rest later

 

[Aytugsss]

Seems okay to me

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

It would still require AP to harm Pell, saying that it isn't a valid AP feat despite Robin leaving Pell like this is just ridiculous. Robin quite literally breaks bones when she does her grapples but sure not AP just LS.

Yes, the nature of how she did it would make it LS.

It would still be Attack Speed at the bare minimum as the only thing that would prevent it is just Luffy changing the direction he moves his arm; Travel speed is also irrelevant because none of Luffy's speed values are travel speed. If Luffy can move his arm at x speed in one direction, he can move it at the same speed in a different direction.

The issue is that this feat is being used as Luffy's overall speed at that key.

Secondly, there's no evidence he raised his hand before the lightning hit him, and considering his surroundings are suddenly the same color as the lightning rushing at him, I think it's fair to assume it had already hit by the time he raised his arm.

This line of scaling comes from Luffy being able to take the Burn Bazooka's blasts and being able to match each other physically. It does NOT start from assuming Burn Bazooka = Wyper's physicals.

The problem with this is that all the damage Luffy has sustained is from the Burn Bazooka, and Wyper never once landed a hit or even hurt Luffy with a physical attack.

So even with Luffy's Durability scaling to the Burn Bazooka, Wyper's physicals wouldn't.

If you actually look at the panel where Luffy covers his face, he has no burn marks from the lightning until after it hits him.

Because the attack is engulfing him.

All of this comes from this thread. It is your responsibility to understand the contents of the material before trying to remove anything.

As mentioned in that thread.

The Doriki scaling page should be updated accordingly

No one ever updated it, so naturally, there would be confusion. Not to mention that's just the Dorki Scaling issue, it doesn't solve the circular scaling, or lack of Island-level stats on the profiles being linked to.

 

[Saqphire]

I would appreciate it if I wasn't ignored

Agree with all of these, and PTS Luffy has more inconsistencies than that.

His Relativistic scaling on his last speed key, which comes from these feats, are wrong because of several reasons:
1. The first calc gets the size scaling of the hand from proportional scaling, but that proportional scaling only works on regular humans with a consistent proportion. Kuma is not a proportional human, the mf is 6.66 metres tall with small limbs and a giant torso.
2. Kuma in Saobody (as well as all the Revolutionaries) is explicitly known to not try to kill the Straw Hats, so we don't need to assume Kuma aimed directly at Luffy to necessitate a dodge, Kuma could've easily aimed for the ground, launching Luffy to the side by the explosion as a result (which would invalidate the feat).
We also don't know if Luffy moved before the explosion took place (and the anime scene isn't canon because it's pre-Wano)

3. The second calc assumes Luffy jumped as the laser beam crossed the distance, but we see Luffy finish the distance when the beam had already landed, meaning Luffy got outsped by the beam here. The real speed is Luffy dodging the explosion which would also be dubious because the perspective blatantly shows that the Pacifista literally missed Luffy

 

[Kachon123]

Blueno is High 7-A, and only 6-C with Rokushiki due to matching Luffy's physicals. Luffy is 6-C for matching Rob Lucci.

Essentially the scaling goes like this: Blueno's physicals < Blueno's Rokushiki ~< Luffy's physicals ~< Lucci's physicals

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I'd rather you linked the calcs at least when talking about the values.

I'll add those in a second.

Anyways, the stretching feat, right? Luffy's actual attacks are consistently faster or at least equal to his stretching speed, meaning that anyone who can react and parry his stretching attacks can then scale to that speed and thus luffy's combat speed would also scale if he fights the person in question.

This raises an issue, because the stretching feat in question comes from his Gum-Gum Bazooka, which is different from his regular attacks even when stretching. I feel like it would be more accurate to have his Bazooka have a certain Attack Speed, and his normal Attacks another Attack Speed.

It goes back to the whole Enel thing of, why bother having a technique, if we're just going to scale every casual attack to it, even when it was clearly being used specifically?

 

[Arceus0x]

This raises an issue, because the stretching feat in question comes from his Gum-Gum Bazooka, which is different from his regular attacks even when stretching. I feel like it would be more accurate to have his Bazooka have a certain Attack Speed, and his normal Attacks another Attack Speed.

It goes back to the whole Enel thing of, why bother having a technique, if we're just going to scale every casual attack to it, even when it was clearly being used specifically?

This isn't an issue. It's a technique but all it really is is him just stretching both his hands back and slamming the opponent. Same for Gum Gum Pistol, he throws his hand back, rubberbands it into the opponent. Additionally, that's simply how attack speed works. Not all techniques are quite on the same level of speed but still within a unquantifiable small margin, allowing the characters to scale. If there's a character that can react to and block Luffy's attacks and Luffy fights them, there's no reason for him not to scale.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

This isn't an issue. It's a technique but all it really is is him just stretching both his hands back and slamming the opponent. Same for Gum Gum Pistol, he throws his hand back, rubberbands it into the opponent. Additionally, that's simply how attack speed works. Not all techniques are quite on the same level of speed but still within a unquantifiable small margin, allowing the characters to scale. If there's a character that can react to and block Luffy's attacks and Luffy fights them, there's no reason for him not to scale.

Fair enough, so Attack Speed & Combat Speed?

 

[EtherealCrater]

I would appreciate it if I wasn't ignored

OP's concerns need to get addressed first. Your concerns are secondary, the original post needs to be tackled before any other inputs are addressed.

 

[EtherealCrater]

Yes, the nature of how she did it would make it LS.

And AP, harming a character through LS would make it AP.

Secondly, there's no evidence he raised his hand before the lightning hit him, and considering his surroundings are suddenly the same color as the lightning rushing at him, I think it's fair to assume it had already hit by the time he raised his arm.

Very convenient that you ignored my point about the light from the lightning. Light travels faster than lightning, the color of the lightning being around Luffy doesn't mean that the lightning reaches him first.

 

[Kachon123]

2. Kuma in Saobody (as well as all the Revolutionaries) is explicitly known to not try to kill the Straw Hats, so we don't need to assume Kuma aimed directly at Luffy to necessitate a dodge, Kuma could've easily aimed for the ground, launching Luffy to the side by the explosion as a result (which would invalidate the feat).
We also don't know if Luffy moved before the explosion took place (and the anime scene isn't canon because it's pre-Wano)

Neither of the feats you linked come from Kuma. They came from Pacifista killing machines that were following orders from Sentomaru. It takes 5 minutes of reading to see this.

It's your burden to prove that the Pacifista were aiming on the ground instead of at Luffy, especially considering the fact that they have scope sensing to locate and follow targets.

We also literally see the beams in motion aimed directly at his face Luffy starts to move.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Blueno is High 7-A, and only 6-C with Rokushiki due to matching Luffy's physicals. Luffy is 6-C for matching Rob Lucci.

Essentially the scaling goes like this: Blueno's physicals < Blueno's Rokushiki ~< Luffy's physicals ~< Lucci's physicals

Gotcha. Well, here’s the circular part, at least until the AP reasonings are fixed:

Blueno is currently rated Island level based on scaling to Franky and Sanji, as I mentioned. Franky’s durability is Large Mountain level. Sanji’s durability is Island level, but that rating comes from scaling to Kalifa, who is Large Mountain level, and Hybrid Jabra, who is Island level.

However, Hybrid Jabra’s Island level rating is itself based on three CP9 members who are Large Mountain level, plus Blueno. That brings the scaling back to Blueno, which is where the loop began.

 

[Kachon123]

Blueno is currently rated Island level based on scaling to Franky and Sanji, as I mentioned. Franky’s durability is Large Mountain level. Sanji’s durability is Island level, but that rating comes from scaling to Kalifa, who is Large Mountain level, and Hybrid Jabra, who is Island level.

Blueno gets his scaling from Luffy, as seen the justification for Luffy's base:

Island level (His physical abilities were praised by Blueno after matching and overpowering several of his Rokushiki strikes. Equally matched Base Lucci's raw strength, implying he has a comparable Doriki)

This is an issue with the profiles, which is why it would have been 10x more productive if you went to the One Piece general discussion thread or at least have contacted avid verse supporters like @KingTempest, @MonkeyOfLife, or myself to make the pages more coherent rather than pump out a "downgrade" thread.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

And AP, harming a character through LS would make it AP.

We'll have to have someone else pitch in on this.

Very convenient that you ignored my point about the light from the lightning. Light travels faster than lightning, the color of the lightning being around Luffy doesn't mean that the lightning reaches him first.

Nami and two others are even closer to Enel than Luffy is, yet only Luffy is being shown as engulfed by lightning. You can still see the background for the others.

 

[Arceus0x]

Fair enough, so Attack Speed & Combat Speed?

yes

 

[EtherealCrater]

Here's Kuma (non lethally, obviously) aiming for Zoro's head with a laser.

 

[EtherealCrater]

Nami and two others are even closer to Enel than Luffy is, yet only Luffy is being shown as engulfed by lightning. You can still see the background for the others.

How are there shadows behind him if the lightning is completely engulfing him?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Blueno gets his scaling from Luffy, as seen the justification for Luffy's base:

There’s still an issue.

Blueno is rated Island-level with Rokushiki based on Luffy, but Luffy is rated Island-level based on Blueno and Lucci.

The problem is that Lucci only has Island-level durability because of Luffy and Sanji, whose scaling issues I already explained.

As for Gear 2 Luffy, his Island-level scaling comes from Lucci and Hybrid Lucci, who, in turn, scale back to Luffy.

This is an issue with the profiles, which is why it would have been 10x more productive if you went to the One Piece general discussion thread or at least have contacted avid verse supporters like @KingTempest, @MonkeyOfLife, or myself to make the pages more coherent rather than pump out a "downgrade" thread.

It’s not a downgrade; it’s fixing inconsistencies. Issues with profiles are still inconsistencies.

These kinds of things also tend to sit around and never get fixed unless someone makes a CRT, especially since most of the focus is on post-timeskip stuff.

In the future, I’ll try to be more mindful, but I might as well get this out of the way now.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

I do not have particularly big stakes on this, however;

1. The issue is that Nico Robin did not harm Pell through a conventional strike or attack. She restrained and constricted him with her Devil Fruit ability. That kind of feat is more closely related to grappling/lifting strength than attack potency.
2. Because of this, Robin restraining Pell should not be used to scale her attack potency or durability. As a result, Crocodile should not scale to Town level through Robin, and Luffy should not inherit that rating through Crocodile.

As far as I understand how the wiki applies logic into feats, LS will not translate into the ability to harm a character. As far as the image goes, Robin isn't knocking him through a choke hold, is the sudden snap movement what produces an injury, which she wouldn't be able to accomplish if she isn't capable of overcoming his durability.

 

[Kachon123]

There’s still an issue.

Blueno is rated Island-level with Rokushiki based on Luffy, but Luffy is rated Island-level based on Blueno and Lucci.

The problem is that Lucci only has Island-level durability because of Luffy and Sanji, whose scaling issues I already explained.

As for Gear 2 Luffy, his Island-level scaling comes from Lucci and Hybrid Lucci, who, in turn, scale back to Luffy.

Base Lucci's physicals scales to 6-C because of his Doriki being ~5x above Fukurou's physicals.

Base Luffy's physicals scales to 6-C because he matched Base Lucci.

Gear 2nd scales above Bazooka, which is 2x Luffy's base physicals.

These kinds of things also tend to sit around and never get fixed unless someone makes a CRT, especially since most of the focus is on post-timeskip stuff.

Wrong. These kinds of things tend to sit around because One Piece as a verse is always at the verse CRT limit due to constant revisions. All it takes is notifying your concerns to a supporter with discussion for it to be fixed. I appreciate that you'll be mindful moving forward, but I hope you understand how frustrating threads like this that come out of the blue can be when we have so many other things that needs to be handled.

 

[Saqphire]

Neither of the feats you linked come from Kuma. They came from Pacifista killing machines that were following orders from Sentomaru. It takes 5 minutes of reading to see this.

Ah, my fault on that then.

It's your burden to prove that the Pacifista were aiming on the ground instead of at Luffy, especially considering the fact that they have scope sensing to locate and follow targets.

It actually isn't, as I'm making an equal interpretation from the same scan. Kuma having information analysis doesn't mean he needs to aim straight at Luffy.

We also literally see the beams in motion aimed directly at his face Luffy starts to move.

Now that's a better argument. The ang sizing is still wrong though cuz of the hand thing.

This version still has the problem of the explosion and Luffy completing their movements in tandem, meaning the light hit the ground first before Luffy finished his jump. The calc would've been valid if there was no explosion when he jumped + there's also the problem of the Pacifista straight up missing him, making it a non-feat.

 

[Kachon123]

All of the concerns about Doriki have already been answered in my sandbox from last year

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Kachon123/dk

It was posted in this thread. I asked for somebody to update the old Doriki page, but it was never done.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Base Lucci's physicals scales to 6-C because of his Doriki being ~5x above Fukurou's physicals.

Okay, so aside from the Doriki Blog needing to be updated, and the profiles that scale to them updated in Tiers, CP9's scaling should be fine.

These kinds of things tend to sit around because One Piece as a verse is always at the verse CRT limit due to constant revisions. All it takes is notifying your concerns to a supporter with discussion for it to be fixed. I appreciate that you'll be mindful moving forward, but I hope you understand how frustrating threads like this that come out of the blue can be when we have so many other things that needs to be handled.

My apologies.

How are there shadows behind him if the lightning is completely engulfing him?

For the same reason, the lightning itself has a shadow for some reason

We see through the rest of that fight, Luffy literally being unable to keep up with Enel when he transforms and moves as electricity.

 

[Kachon123]

It actually isn't, as I'm making an equal interpretation from the same scan. Kuma having information analysis doesn't mean he needs to aim straight at Luffy.

Except this isn't Kuma. It's a Pacifista with an internal computer. They're killing machines who were given the orders to kill. It's absolutely your burden to prove that a machine with auto-sniping capabilities aimed on the ground instead of the target in front of them.

 

[Kachon123]

Okay, so aside from the Doriki Blog needing to be updated, and the profiles that scale to them updated in Tiers, CP9's scaling should be fine.

Their tiers are fine, it's just the justifications that need to be clarified.

 

[Kachon123]

This version still has the problem of the explosion and Luffy completing their movements in tandem, meaning the light hit the ground first before Luffy finished his jump. The calc would've been valid if there was no explosion when he jumped + there's also the problem of the Pacifista straight up missing him, making it a non-feat.

The laser hitting the ground does not mean that the Pacifista aimed at the ground. It means that Luffy moved out of the way in time so that it hit the ground behind his original position, as the Pacifista was aiming at Luffy to begin with. How are you coming to these conclusions?

EDIT: @Saqphire I'm going to stop debating this here. If you want we can continue the discussion in pms or on my wall, but there's no point in doing it here, as you're arguing something completely different from what's in the OP

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Alright, so summarizing.

1. So far, no one has really refuted my first point regarding the explosion. Luffy's stretching would go to his Attack Speed, Combat Speed, and his opponent's Reaction Speed.
2. Class K Lifting Strength still needs to be either defended or replaced with something.
3. Town Level Alabasta is being argued on whether what Robin did was LS or AP, or both.
4. Massively Hypersonic+ Skypiea is debating whether Luffy covered his face before or after the attack hit. Depending on the conclusion, it will either be removed or made Reaction Speed.
5. Small City Level Skypiea has the issue of Wyper never actually harming Luffy without the Burn Bazooka, so his physical attacks wouldn't equate to Luffy's Durability from surviving getting hit by the Burn Bazooka.
6. Island-level stuff was because a blog wasn't updated, and once it is, things should be fine.

Did I miss anything?

 

[EtherealCrater]

For the same reason, the lightning itself has a shadow for some reason

Please provide the scan where the lightning itself has a shadow and not just casting a shadow upon something else.

Again, Luffy being fully engulfed would leave him fully illuminated from all sides, this is the exact opposite of what's being shown in the panel.

 

[KingTempest]

I’m on my way

 

[Saqphire]

Except this isn't Kuma. It's a Pacifista with an internal computer. They're killing machines who were given the orders to kill.

Yeah none of that justifies the claim that the Pacifista would aim at Luffy, as killing machines with computers who are given orders to kill can also aim wrong (literally the Stormtrooper effect). That's an equal interpretation and you're claiming he aimed at Luffy which would've been your burden, but I already agreed with it after seeing the coloured scan of the laser blatantly flying at Luffy here.

The laser hitting the ground does not mean that the Pacifista aimed at the ground. It means that Luffy moved out of the way in time so that it hit the ground behind his original position, as the Pacifista was aiming at Luffy to begin with. How are you coming to these conclusions?

Perspective bruh. We literally see Luffy being way closer to the screen in depth than the explosion because Oda literally drew the explosion being in front of him if we look at his leg, so the interpretation that it straight up missed him anyway is valid here.

The explosion going relative to Luffy's distance means the light had already completed it's greater distance before Luffy completed his jump, thus Luffy's full jump is not the actual speed of him "dodging" it, nor is the greater distance that the light took the actual speed of the thing he dodges, the thing he dodges is the explosion. Thus as I said before, the pixel scaling would be valid if the full jump was made prior to the explosion happening

 

[Saqphire]

EDIT: @Saqphire I'm going to stop debating this here. If you want we can continue the discussion in pms or on my wall, but there's no point in doing it here, as you're arguing something completely different from what's in the OP

ok

 

[Kachon123]

So far, no one has really refuted my first point regarding the explosion. Luffy's stretching would go to his Attack Speed, Combat Speed, and his opponent's Reaction Speed.

What? If his Attack Speed and Combat Speed scale, as well as his Reaction Speed due to scaling relative to his opponents, it would just be his general speed value. There's no need for the distinctions when Luffy fights mostly by stretching. This will only serve to clutter and bloat his page unnecessarily.

Class K Lifting Strength still needs to be either defended or replaced with something.

Swinging counts as Lifting Strength.

Town Level Alabasta is being argued on whether what Robin did was LS or AP, or both.

It's both. Pell has 7-C bones and skin. If Robin can break them both with her attacks, she scales.

Crocodile was also able to easily defeat an amped Chaka, who is superior to Pell. They'd scale regardless.

Small City Level Skypiea has the issue of Wyper never actually harming Luffy without the Burn Bazooka, so his physical attacks wouldn't equate to Luffy's Durability from surviving getting hit by the Burn Bazooka.

Wyper was able to force Luffy to dodge his strikes as well as block and deflect Luffy's stronger blows, which scales to his durability via feats later in the arc.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

What? If his Attack Speed and Combat Speed scale, as well as his Reaction Speed due to scaling relative to his opponents, it would just be his general speed value. There's no need for the distinctions when Luffy fights mostly by stretching. This will only serve to clutter and bloat his page unnecessarily.

No, because it's not his Travel Speed. Aside from Luffy grabbing onto something to wing or maybe slingshotting, I have no intention of changing my stance on this.

He can't run at Hypersonic+ Speeds.

Swinging counts as Lifting Strength.

Where is that stated?

I specifically remember a CRT where blocking attacks, or attacks sending things flying not counted as Lifting Strength.

It's both. Pell has 7-C bones and skin. If Robin can break them both with her attacks, she scales.

I disagree.

Tearing is counted as Lifting Strength, so contorting would count as Lifting Strength as well.

Crocodile was also able to easily defeat an amped Chaka, who is superior to Pell. They'd scale regardless.

That's fine.

AP Reasoning should be changed then, since I still disagree about the Pell stuff.

Wyper was able to force Luffy to dodge his strikes as well as block and deflect Luffy's stronger blows,

He didn't force Luffy to do anything; Luffy just dodged. And deflecting attacks has nothing to do with Durability.

which scales to his durability via feats later in the arc.

If there's a scan of Wyper actually punching/kicking Luffy and dealing damage to him that way, I'll concede.

 

[Kachon123]

He can't run at Hypersonic+ Speeds.

Luffy is just as fast as Zoro, who can run at Hypersonic+ speeds.

Where is that stated?

I specifically remember a CRT where blocking attacks, or attacks sending things flying not counted as Lifting Strength.

Force from Kinetic Energy is valid for Lifting Strength.

I disagree.

Tearing is counted as Lifting Strength, so contorting would count as Lifting Strength as well.

You can disagree, but just know that you're blatantly wrong.

Somebody with good enough Lifting Strength but insufficient Attack Potency can not break the bones and skin of somebody with far greater durability. It's why the "LS Meta" in versus threads has a hard limit against superior characters.

He didn't force Luffy to do anything; Luffy just dodged. And deflecting attacks has nothing to do with Durability.

Luffy's strikes scale to his durability.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

​

1. Hypersonic+ Speed

Luffy currently receives Hypersonic+ speed from two feats.

1. The first issue is the explosion-dodging feat. Luffy does not appear to dodge the explosion itself. Rather, he dodges the initial attack, and the explosion happens afterward. This means the feat should not be treated as Luffy reacting to or moving away from the explosion after it began.
   1. The anime shows this.
2. The second issue is the stretching feat. This measures the speed of Luffy’s rubber ability extending, which would at most apply to his attack speed with that specific action. It should not automatically scale to his normal movement speed or travel speed.

Proposed change:
Remove or revise the Hypersonic+ rating unless better support is provided. If the stretching feat is kept, it should be specified as attack speed only.

To be noted (since I don't see anyone else noting this) it is our standard assumption that when a profile has a speed rating, if it doesn't specify one of the 5 different types we rate, it's meant to be Combat Speed:

The term "Speed" normally refers to Combat Speed.

— Speed

So if Luffy can dodge (I see the feat is being discussed, so won't comment on that specifically) at hypersonic+ speeds, yet other fighters can tag him and he can tag them back, then the profile is indeed correct. His combat speed is hypersonic+, and that's all it needs to note.

Is it better to be more specific? Of course, but technically not inherently wrong.