Honkai: Star Rail — Regarding the Aeons

[Voidnether]

A: Higher-dimensional existence is fundamentally a way to define a space a character, being, or structure occupies with four or more spatial axes. This can be four, all the way up to ever-expanding infinite number sets. But all of this still comes down to the object in question can be "defined" as occupying a space through a coordinate system of some kind. An object existing purely as an abstract concept (Type 1 Abstract Existence), with no definitive size or spatial occupation within a cosmology, would not qualify for HDE. As there's no higher space it occupies, but rather it exists in a conceptualized state without a physical form. However, an avatar of a Type 1 Abstract being that occupies reality as a physical entity can qualify for HDE, as they can now be defined by a coordinate system.

To correct this mistake and to clean up this tainted universe, Nanook became the avatar of entropy and ascended to godhood while denying all gods.

Abstract Existence (Type 1, Concept【Type 3】; Aeons are the embodiment of highly condensed ideals and philosophical concepts through the Imaginary Tree, tied up with Paths which is derived through the Imaginary element, the metaphysical aggregation of the spirit.)

Type 9, Higher-Dimensional Existence (11-D) & Avatar Creation (Aeons are higher-dimensional beings, which exist beyond the Real Space and resides in Path Space which contains eleven dimensions, The difference between an higher dimension being and a lower one is compared to the difference between a reader and a novel. Due to Aeons' existence being bound with the imaginary elements (Paths), THEY have to form an avatar to descend onto the physical world and can choose an aspect or manifestation as THEY want. Aeons can have thousands of manifestations spread across the reality)

Basically, Aeons reside in Path Space which is eleven-dimensional and they're scaled to Real Space which is only tiered as 2-A — I don't really know on how to list it properly, but Paths as imaginary elements in which there are 18 of them should be listed as Abstract Existence (Type 1) in which that Aeons are embodiment of, but Aeons should still retain 11-D HDE and Abstract Existence (Type 2) due to them relying on Paths and they can keep resurrecting indefinitely as long as their Paths still exist and the Aeons are not stripped away of Paths.

Related Entry — The Harmony
...Xipe the Harmony. Oh, the mother of all stars! THEY proclaimed harmonious hymns of celebration, and united all wills as one. The Family's songs spread to all corners of the world, and THEIR degree of understanding, support, and synergy for the will of all creatures was beyond imagination. Or perhaps, THEY were already on a plane beyond mortal minds. The ever-expanding Harmony was truly worthy of human longing. The universe encircles and decorates THEIR body like crushed diamonds, and civilization became a rainbow to be snatched in THEIR palm. I am filled with curiosity about how THEY swallowed up Order. The hymns of Xipe continue to spread and grow, occasionally overseen by ideology. In contrast, Ena's harmonic songs seems to align within a three-dimensional framework, akin to an emperor maintaining hierarchical order among all creatures. While there may be some overlap between THEIR Paths, the ancient Order is enormous in size, and swallowing THEM would prove far from effortless... Among the Aeons, there exist countless enigmas that surpass my own speculations.

Qlipoth had to dilute the concept of Propagation after diluting Tayzzyronth as the Aeon of Propagation to make sure it doesn't regenerate again and is sealed conceptually — Xipe straight up swallowed the Path of Order, and in turn merged with Ena, the Aeon of Order.

The implications are clear that in a way, you must negate the Paths themselves whether by diluting the Path after you dilute the Aeon or straight up swallowing the Path in which then the Aeon is forced to merge with you.

And that will be the reason why they'd get the benefits of Abstract Existence (Type 2) alongside HDE and that Paths are Abstract Existence (Type 1).

Type 2: Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it.

It must be noted however that in this scenario, you must affect the Paths that exist as AE1 to permanently kill an Aeon (by all means, interacting and destroying the abstraction). Whilst admittedly that you can still affect them if you have 11-D Range without interacting with their Paths (AE1), it's impossible for Aeons to be incapacitated in simpler terms unless you can destroy said Paths. Which traces back to Irontomb having to destroy the Path of Erudition to even have a chance of killing Nous, and merging with it (i.e replacing Nous to create a new universe through Nous' recalculations where Path of Erudition doesn't exist) after the Path of Erudition is destroyed by Irontomb.

• Second Option​

There are possible exceptions to this standard, however. For example, if an Abstract Being occupies the concept whose information can be expressed or defined through spatial coordinates, such as the physical concept of space itself, then they can have both Abstract Existence and Higher Dimensional Existence at the same time.

Path of Erudition as a concept governs all concepts, which include concepts such as space, time, matter and so on (I might have to sneak this one being a Concept Type 2 since it governs concepts such as space, time and matter which makes up reality). It still could be argued that Nous is the Path of Erudition itself, since Path of Erudition is created upon the ascension of Nous. The same way that Path of Destruction is created upon the ascension of Nanook so they still retain their HDE and Abstract Existence (Type 1) altogether.

Related Entry — The Destruction
...Nanook came from a star system called Adlivun, which has now been "destroyed." The birth of an Aeon was often accompanied by an anomaly that shook the universe, and Nanook had probably ignited their own home. I got some information from the Astral Express on how Adlivun used to be. It was a tragic world completely marred by the Emperor's War, and was unfortunate enough to be on the path of the Swarm's march. When Akivili arrived there, Adlivun was still fighting a tense and endless war with the remaining descendants of the Imperator Insectorum. What kind of an Aeon would such a planet create? It is therefore not hard to imagine its eventual fate...

Staff Votes​

• Option 1 (AE1 for Paths, AE2 & HDE for Aeons):
• Option 2 (Aeons are both AE1 & HDE):

 

[MSahla]

Regarding the Path of Erudition

For what i've read to the scan, especially this:

Erudition is something that.. basically.. naming what is them, not that created them. As Lygus said, time, space, matter, and all concepts solely exist because they perceive them. In short, this would be called “Erudition.” But since Nous were created by Zandar, Nous cannot be the “source” of those things (i.e space, time, matter, concepts, etc etc) since all of them were born since the big bang. A.k.a the birth of the universe.

Because when you said this:

Path of Erudition as a concept governs all concepts, which include concepts such as space, time, matter and so on. It still could be argued that Nous is the Path of Erudition itself, since Path of Erudition is created upon the ascension of Nous.

It's as if you saying that all those things exist BECAUSE of Nous.
Same goes for Nanook's case since they're the youngest among all Aeons, So the concept of Destruction itself cannot be exist because of Nanook. Unless I misread/misunderstood that, you can correct me if I'm wrong.

So, I don't think that Nanook and Nous should be the exceptions and so therefore getting AE1. The first option sounds more reasonable to me.

 

[Voidnether]

Regarding the Path of Erudition

For what i've read to the scan, especially this:

“Erudition” is something that.. basically.. naming what is them, not that created them. As Lygus said, time, space, matter, and all concepts solely exist because they perceive them. In short, this would be called “Erudition.” But since Nous were created by Zandar, Nous cannot be the “source” of those things (i.e space, time, matter, concepts, etc etc) since all of them were born since the big bang. A.k.a the birth of the universe.

Because when you said this:

It's as if you saying that all those things exist BECAUSE of Nous.
Same goes for Nanook's case since they're the youngest among all Aeons, So the concept of Destruction itself cannot be exist because of Nanook. Unless I misread/misunderstood that, you can correct me if I'm wrong.

So, I don't think that Nanook and Nous should be the exceptions and so therefore getting AE1. The first option sounds more reasonable to me.

Speaking of which, i also disagree with the last part. The moment the future is set in stone, i.e, an aeon will appear in the future, the path will exist due to it being abstract.

There is this argument though, that Paths exist alongside the Aeons in a way that Paths exist predetermined. Which meant theoretically concepts such as Erudition could exist and predate the existence of their own Aeon, this is consistent by that Himeko statement that the rise of an Aeon (birth of an Aeon) gives rise to a Path that predated them, instead of creating them altogether.

That is, in a way that Aeons basically popularize their own Path and that Paths already exist before the existence of the Aeons. Which meant it's doable for Erudition to be the source, because again without Erudition then the universe would be a blank canvas since those concepts won't exist.

 

[Voidnether]

Technically though, AE1 here is possible as in even if Paths predate the Aeons and that the birth of an Aeon gives rise to a Path that predated them.

Mind you, Nous was invading the Erudition which technically implies that Erudition already existed before Nous is created as an astral computer and invading as in Nous merged with the Path of Erudition itself, yeah.

I am leaving it up to the staff which one is more consistent, that Aeons are Paths themselves or they are two different things (i.e Aeons would just rely on Paths).

 

[MSahla]

There is this argument though, that Paths exist alongside the Aeons in a way that Paths exist predetermined. Which meant theoretically concepts such as Erudition could exist and predate the existence of their own Aeon, this is consistent by that Himeko statement that the rise of an Aeon (birth of an Aeon) gives rise to a new Path, instead of creating them altogether.

That is, in a way that Aeons basically popularize their own Path and that Paths already exist before the existence of the Aeons. Which meant it's doable for Erudition to be the source, because again without Erudition then the universe would be a blank canvas since those concepts won't exist.

But the scan you gave doesn't say anything about Nous being the Erudition itself. Lygus only explain that space, time, matter, all concepts etc etc are what called “Erudition." Basically if those things had a single name, then you got Erudition.

You have to provide that Nous exist purely as those things (i.e space, time, matter, concepts, etc etc) to make Nous the Path of Erudition itself, since that's what the Erudition is based on Lygus' explanation.

Mind you, Nous was invading the Erudition which technically implies that Erudition already existed before Nous is created as an astral computer and invading as in Nous merged with the Path of Erudition itself, yeah.

If a thing that so-called “The birth of an Aeon give rise to a new path”, then Nous' birth would also gave birth to this so-called “Erudition” logically.

You have to prove that Erudition were already exist before Nous.

 

[Voidnether]

But the scan you gave doesn't say anything about Nous being the Erudition itself. Lygus only explain that space, time, matter, all concepts etc etc are what called “Erudition." Basically if those things had a single name, then you got Erudition.

You have to provide that Nous exist purely as those things (i.e space, time, matter, concepts, etc etc) to make Nous the Path of Erudition itself, since that's what the Erudition is based on Lygus' explanation.


If a thing that so-called “The birth of an Aeon give rise to a new path”, then Nous' birth would also gave birth to this so-called “Erudition” logically.

You have to prove that Erudition were already exist before Nous.

Path of Erudition governing those concepts already implies superiority, because Erudition doesn't exist purely as those things but rather as a concept that creates space, time and so on.

Himeko's statement never said anything about a new Path though, which is why I reworded it to: "that the birth of an Aeon gives rise to a Path that predated them."

Himeko: The birth of an Aeon gives rise to a Path. The nature of the Paths remains a mystery, leaving us to draw an analogy in a way that mortals can understand: It's a philosophical concept of sorts.

It's just explaining that there are some Paths that's not popular, and they're only widely known after the ascension of an Aeon to said Path which meant predating it is technically possible. Nous literally invaded Erudition and then became the Aeon of Erudition after merging with it I suppose.

 

[Mbpoops]

Ill read in a sec

 

[MSahla]

Path of Erudition governing those concepts already implies superiority, because Erudition doesn't exist purely as those things but rather as a concept that creates space, time and so on.

Who are you talking to when you said "the Path of Erudition"? If you're talking about Nous then it doesn't qualify for AE1 since that's the requirement:

Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.

Superiority and Governing aren't relevant to AE1.

 

[Voidnether]

Who are you talking to when you said "the Path of Erudition"? If you're talking about Nous then it doesn't qualify for AE1 since that's the requirement:

Superiority and Governing aren't relevant to AE1.

Path of Erudition is an abstract concept, it governs concepts such as space, time, matter and so on. Nous invaded Erudition and became the Aeon of Erudition afterwards which meant it became Path of Erudition itself. That is the second option.

 

[Mbpoops]

Option 2 is already how they are indexed.

They are ae1 because they are (their paths ig?) philosophical concepts their forms that we see are the forms with hde so with the current indexing ae1 and hde is fine

 

[MSahla]

Nous invaded Erudition and became the Aeon of Erudition afterwards which meant it became Path of Erudition itself. That is the second option.

Is there any specifict proof for Nous (or Aeons in general) became their own path after became an Aeon? Cause, becoming an Aeon of Path, doesn't necessarily HAVE to become the Path itself. I mean, we know Aeons are bounded to their own path, so, They bounded to themselves?

It could still mean something like they become the embodiment of the path, not the path itself. Literally just like Nanook who said to be the avatar of Entrophy:

To correct this mistake and to clean up this tainted universe, Nanook became the avatar of entropy and ascended to godhood while denying all gods.

So I need a scan to clarify that. But so far, no scans that have provided says the Aeons become the Path itself literally.

 

[Voidnether]

Is there any specifict proof for Nous (or Aeons in general) became their own path after became an Aeon? Cause, becoming an Aeon of Path, doesn't necessarily HAVE to become the Path itself. I mean, we know Aeons are bounded to their own path, so, They bounded to themselves?

It could still mean something like they become the embodiment of the path, not the path itself. Literally just like Nanook who said to be the avatar of Entrophy:


So I need a scan to clarify that. But so far, no scans that have provided says the Aeons become the Path itself literally.

I mean it's there for Nous, idk about other Aeons tho

 

[Mbpoops]

This thread feels kinda pointless, they already have ae1 and hde i dont see why they need ae2

 

[MSahla]

I mean it's there for Nous, idk about other Aeons tho.

It doesn't say so for Nous either.

This thread feels kinda pointless, they already have ae1 and hde i dont see why they need ae2

Nuke it. They just fit more into Type 2 rather than Type 1.

 

[Mbpoops]

It doesn't say so for Nous either.


Nuke it. They just fit more into Type 2 rather than Type 1.

They are philisophical concepts their metaphysical forms aka the paths are the abstraction while their “physical” forms are the higher dimensional theres no resason to nuke

 

[MSahla]

their metaphysical forms aka the paths are the abstraction while their “physical” forms are the higher dimensional theres no resason to nuke

Well first of all, you need to provided a scan that says the Aeons' are the Paths itself literally, which i already asked before:

Is there any specifict proof for Nous (or Aeons in general) became their own path after became an Aeon? Cause, becoming an Aeon of Path, doesn't necessarily HAVE to become the Path itself. I mean, we know Aeons are bounded to their own path, so, They bounded to themselves?

It could still mean something like they become the embodiment of the path, not the path itself. Literally just like Nanook who said to be the avatar of Entrophy:


So I need a scan to clarify that. But so far, no scans that have provided says the Aeons become the Path itself literally.

 

[Mbpoops]

Well first of all, you need to provided a scan that says the Aeons' are the Paths itself literally, which i already asked before:

Literally any dialogue where they refer to the path theres a dialogue that say the aeon’s name they are interchangeable. I can provide the scans in like 7h

 

[MSahla]

Literally any dialogue where they refer to the path theres a dialogue that say the aeon’s name they are interchangeable. I can provide the scans in like 7h

Well, i remember some of those dialogues. But their names are used interchangeably with the Path by itself is not conclusive proof that the Aeon literally is the Path itself. The game often uses the Aeon’s name and the Path almost interchangeably in dialogue/UI because the Aeon is the supreme embodiment and ruler of that Path.

You would have to provide something like:

• Explicit statements that the Aeon is the Path itself
• Statements that destroying the Aeons also destroys the Path

I have never seen, unless I'm missing it, a scan that says the Aeons exist purely as their own Paths.

 

[MSahla]

The game often uses the Aeon’s name and the Path almost interchangeably in dialogue/UI because the Aeon is the supreme embodiment and ruler of that Path.

We have this kind of statement in Genshin, where Istaroth name was mentioned on top of the word “Time.”

So, does this enough for Istaroth to become literally Time itself and so therefore qualify for AE1? Of course not. We have to explains more.

 

[Voidnether]

This thread feels kinda pointless, they already have ae1 and hde i dont see why they need ae2

Oh so Aeons aren't affected by the new standards where you can't have AE1 and HDE simultaneously? This thread was actually meant to tackle that shit

 

[Mbpoops]

Well, i remember some of those dialogues. But their names are used interchangeably with the Path by itself is not conclusive proof that the Aeon literally is the Path itself. The game often uses the Aeon’s name and the Path almost interchangeably in dialogue/UI because the Aeon is the supreme embodiment and ruler of that Path.

You would have to provide something like:

• Explicit statements that the Aeon is the Path itself
• Statements that destroying the Aeons also destroys the Path

I have never seen, unless I'm missing it, a scan that says the Aeons exist purely as their own Paths.

The Erudition is a hunk of junk, the Preservation is a fool, the Hunt has no sense of humor, and the Destruction is a lunatic. All the Aeons are as stubborn as they come. What a shame for Aha!"
— A Masked Fool who is a self-proclaimed astronomy expert
To savor joy is a privilege unique to sentient beings. Neither the dusty rocks nor the distant stars can fathom the humor that life entails.
Go seek adversaries worthy of your mettle, games that while away the hours, and outcomes indifferent to victory or defeat.
Go chase laughter that leaves you breathless, twists born of fate's whimsy, and songs that ascend your soul. - path of elation description

The description describes various paths as the aeons saying the erudition is a hunk of junk (nous being a robot)

 

[Mbpoops]

Oh so Aeons aren't affected by the new standards where you can't have AE1 and HDE simultaneously?

It shouldnt be i even talked to nova abt it

 

[Voidnether]

It shouldnt be i even talked to nova abt it

Nvm ima close it then

 

[MSahla]

The description describes various paths as the aeons saying the erudition is a hunk of junk (nous being a robot)

The descriptions clearly talk about the Aeons, not the Paths itself.

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

Closing it as per OP's request.