UNDERTALE/DELTARUNE [shiny new] DISCUSSION THEAD

[IDK3465]

Gang I’m so tired

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Gang I’m so tired

It due my comments or something?

 

[IDK3465]

It due my comments or something?

Nah, it was the 7-B discussion earlier

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Nah, it was the 7-B discussion earlier

What exactly is the problem ?

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

I disagree. This assumes both Dark Worlds are operating on the same scale of reality and volume and that's not true. The Titan is not the size of a city.

Call me insane but the fact the dark world can be connected to hometown and light world implies a connection that is possible if they are working on the same reality and volume.

Of course he isnt the size of a city but they pretty much would have a volume of one from the outside while inside they would have thier weakness against light just like how the spawns have.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

From Pelipal

Water and glass are joined with dust and snow and ice (which itself is like glass) as continuously recurring throughlines in the game - dark 'fountains' are what produce the dark worlds, water is necessary to perpetuate the cycle of existence because even the moss drinks it, 'Hell's Roar' bubbles up from the depths, there are holy princesses made of water who reside in watercoolers in the dark world (Mizzles and Miss Mizzle) and there's a 'holy princess' (choir-singing, angel-loving daughter of the rich mayor) who keeps a fridge for water in the light world and she likes her water bottles 'icy', there are prophecy panels that are glass but ebb and flow like water, and there are other pieces of glass that show you visions when you look into them and that may contain Determination and throwing them out "would be like throwing away someone's ... ???", and coldwater will fall (or possibly already fell) from the top of the sky in an apparently apocalyptic event ("it's unavoidable") and Noelle wishes it would snow whenever she wants, and monster dust looks like snow and like the coughing snow/dust piles in the dark world, and the gonermaker is set against an ocean texture, and there is music coming from the lake, and there's a conch shell that no one wanted and was surrounded by glass and repeats the sound of the ocean, and the Fallen Star's tears are bitter water that turn into glass, and Noelle says the BitterWater tastes like when she and Kris ate snow as kids...
And TV static seems like a snowstorm happening behind glass. The titan, titanspawn and the Roaring Knight all turn to TV static when damaged. They all look like a snowstorm happening behind glass.
And a snowflake is a tiny falling star...
I am this Organikk

• What do you call a man with one eye?
• Why does the angel make its cry?
• Who will call the girl who snows?
• I don't know... ha ha ha... I don't know!

 

[LittleGuy99]

Very interesting

Deltarune/Chapter 4/Unused Graphics/Characters - The Cutting Room Floor

tcrf.net

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Very interesting

Deltarune/Chapter 4/Unused Graphics/Characters - The Cutting Room Floor

tcrf.net

That only make Everyman more interesting...hmm.

 

[Axorandom0]

Very interesting

Deltarune/Chapter 4/Unused Graphics/Characters - The Cutting Room Floor

tcrf.net

SOMETHING’s off

 

[Qurbonboev]

This assumes both Dark Worlds are operating on the same scale of reality

"Same scale of reality"?
Only time site invokes this notion of "scale of reality" is when R>F invoked. Which isn't case for us

 

[GodlyCharmander]

"Same scale of reality"?
Only time site invokes this notion of "scale of reality" is when R>F invoked. Which isn't case for us

I meant by the definitions of the game, every time we go into a dark world, we're taken into a lesser layer of reality. And when something from that lesser layer interacts with the outer layer, it doesn't conserve energy and is smaller.

 

[Qurbonboev]

I meant by the definitions of the game, every time we go into a dark world, we're taken into a lesser layer of reality

"Lesser layer of reality"
And why would you consider it lesser layer of reality, instead of just "Same reality, just warped by darkness"

 

[GodlyCharmander]

"Lesser layer of reality"
And why would you consider it lesser layer of reality, instead of just "Same reality, just warped by darkness"

That's how Ralsei describes the world, it's not real, and the effects of said world do not translate 1:1. You can't eat and not be hungry when you return to the LW, for example. It's not literally a lesser layer of reality, but each time darkness warps a world inside its dark fountain said world has a much smaller scope from an external perspective. That also happens if you create a Dark World inside a Dark World, the Titan isn't a whole city, the fountain inside of its body has a dimension that's also a smaller layer. Since we are experiencing its attacks from outside its fountain, no one should really scale to the whole dimension.


Circle back to the GIGA Queen analogy. If the Titan had Cybercity inside its body, and GIGA Queen, from within it, threw her gigantic tennis ball at us, who are outside of the body, would that tennis ball retain its size? Its energy? No.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

That's how Ralsei describes the world, it's not real, and the effects of said world do not translate 1:1. You can't eat and not be hungry when you return to the LW, for example. It's not literally a lesser layer of reality, but each time darkness warps a world inside its dark fountain said world has a much smaller scope from an external perspective. That also happens if you create a Dark World inside a Dark World, the Titan isn't a whole city, the fountain inside of its body has a dimension that's also a smaller layer. Since we are experiencing its attacks from outside its fountain, no one should really scale to the whole dimension.

said world has a much smaller scope from an external perspective.

"Welcome to MANCOUNTRY"

Circle back to the GIGA Queen analogy. If the Titan had Cybercity inside its body, and GIGA Queen, from within it, threw her gigantic tennis ball at us, who are outside of the body, would that tennis ball retain its size? Its energy? No.

And what if you could retain the size and energy due the laws of the dark world?

 

[Qurbonboev]

You can't eat and not be hungry when you return to the LW, for example.

DW food doesn't feed Lighthers, but it can heal them. It being unable to feed them sounds more like its particular deficiency, not evidence of it being unreal.

said world has a much smaller scope from an external perspective

Please stop using this as evidence, how big is pocket dimension from outside is irrelevant. DWs being lesser layer of reality could be a good argument, but not this.

That also happens if you create a Dark World inside a Dark World, the Titan isn't a whole city, the fountain inside of its body has a dimension that's also a smaller layer

This would work only if you think that Dark World inside Dark World would be treated as lesser reality relative to og Dark Worlds, which is non sequitur.
Queen tried to blanket LW in darkness through Noelle and Berdly creating DWs inside Cyber City. Which kinda implies, that if not for Titan stuff, creating DW inside DW would just result inbmore darkness pouring into LW, and thus creation of another normal DW

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Also the fact the sword characters are classified as "darkners" and not "lesser" them ralsei

In Fact i believe monsters are just advanced darkners due thier "magic" nature.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

DW food doesn't feed Lighthers, but it can heal them. It being unable to feed them sounds more like its particular deficiency, not evidence of it being unreal.

The evidence of it being unreal is Ralsei's own explanation about the logistics of the world, he uses the food as an example of it being unreal. Some form of interaction is possible, which is why this isn't true R>F. I'm using the game's own interpretation of "lower reality' here, not the wiki's.

Please stop using this as evidence, how big is pocket dimension from outside is irrelevant. DWs being lesser layer of reality could be a good argument, but not this.

Stop claiming something that's relevant is irrelevant.

I'm not denying that the internal volume is valid for the purposes of powerscaling, and that's how you're replying to me. No.

When we face the Titan, we are experiencing the pocket dimension from outside. To us, it's internal volume doesn't translate.

This would work only if you think that Dark World inside Dark World would be treated as lesser reality relative to og Dark Worlds, which is non sequitur.

Why is the Titan not the size of a city, then? Some sort of warping is reducing the size of its dimension in the same way it happens in the LW, no? So how is my claim extraordinary in any way?

Queen tried to blanket LW in darkness through Noelle and Berdly creating DWs inside Cyber City. Which kinda implies, that if not for Titan stuff, creating DW inside DW would just result inbmore darkness pouring into LW, and thus creation of another normal DW

Do you not remember that the Queen was literally wrong about this, and was just guessing based on the Knight's action and was STOPPED by Ralsei, who actually told what would happen?

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Also another thing, onion san and gerson both can hear a "song" from the bottle of sea which is something important to the plot.

you know, same thing I said for " legends and myths can only exist in pure darkness" thing

Since anything that come from the water goes back to the water.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

The evidence of it being unreal is Ralsei's own explanation about the logistics of the world, he uses the food as an example of it being unreal. Some form of interaction is possible, which is why this isn't true R>F. I'm using the game's own interpretation of "lower reality' here, not the wiki's.

Food still give you energy tho as it bio energy.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Also another thing, onion san and gerson both can hear a "song" from the bottle of sea which is something important to the plot.

you know, same thing I said for " legends and myths can only exist in pure darkness" thing

Since anything that come from the water goes back to the water.

Any idea on what Song is, and why Onion san disappeared afterwards?

 

[IDK3465]

Sorry to interrupt, but haven't we previously scaled characters to certain values purely because they contained a pocket dimension? Not saying I agree with it, just kinda wondering about whether that's valid

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Sorry to interrupt, but haven't we previously scaled characters to certain values purely because they contained a pocket dimension? Not saying I agree with it, just kinda wondering about whether that's valid

Yes. We have

These dimensions are actual spaces that are created, not "darkness that reveals another side of reality", that "are less real than real life". Second link is a calc about moving the mass of the universe

 

[Qurbonboev]

These dimensions are actual spaces that are created

I mean, DW do actually create space. And anyone that played Deltarune can attest this

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I mean, DW do actually create space. And anyone that played Deltarune can attest this

They don't ""create space"", the technical explanation is that Darkness allows us to see another side of the same reality. I do get what you mean, but the problem with proportions and all the things I've said are still valid. The Titan shoots blobs of Darkness that are a fraction of its entire body (the thing that's considered 7-B). Personally, I think we should just scale the Titan's AP to the best feat

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Any idea on what Song is, and why Onion san disappeared afterwards?

If had to guess what the song is, it probally something related to the "realm of the gods" due the whole theme around the water, wind, ice and holy elements

Also Onion san is literally a spoiler soo they probally got taken by the entitys down there.

 

[Qurbonboev]

They don't ""create space"", the technical explanation is that Darkness allows us to see another side of the same reality

It's technically would be "reality warping", but whether it's creation or reality warping isn't really relevant Tier wise.

The Titan shoots blobs of Darkness that are a fraction of its entire body (the thing that's considered 7-B).

Sorry to interrupt, but haven't we previously scaled characters to certain values purely because they contained a pocket dimension? Not saying I agree with it, just kinda wondering about whether that's valid

Reread justification of this boy profile. They are same as our current 7-B. It's how standards on this site work. You could personally disagree with them (and it's overall rational stance all things considered, I too have gripes with them very often) but your would need to change standards first.
Also, thanks @IDK3456, tried to search for similar to Titan situations on site, you helped tremendously.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

 

[GodlyCharmander]

It's technically would be "reality warping", but whether it's creation or reality warping isn't really relevant Tier wise.

It kinda is, if it's hax and Deltarune isn't UES, RW doesn't scale.

Reread justification of this boy profile. They are same as our current 7-B. It's how standards on this site work. You could personally disagree with them (and it's overall rational stance all things considered, I too have gripes with them very often) but your would need to change standards first.
Also, thanks @IDK3456, tried to search for similar to Titan situations on site, you helped tremendously.

This is false. Like, absolutely false.

The boy creates an actual building size space on the same layer of reality as the real world. Should we scale creation feats to Light World characters then? Because that's the same situation as Kris themselves.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

It kinda is, if it's hax and Deltarune isn't UES, RW doesn't scale.

This is false. Like, absolutely false.

The boy creates an actual building size space on the same layer of reality as the real world. Should we scale creation feats to Light World characters then? Because that's the same situation as Kris themselves.

Also the verse in question has a Universal Energy System, Deltarune doesn't

 

[IDK3465]

Yes. We have

These dimensions are actual spaces that are created, not "darkness that reveals another side of reality", that "are less real than real life". Second link is a calc about moving the mass of the universe

ok, but like... isn't the whole thing with the fountains that they transform what normally isn't real INTO something that's real? Showing a separate side to reality and all that?
Like, it's not as if they're still inanimate objects within the darkness, they are REALLY there doing their stuff, and lightners/light world versions of darkners can and HAVE been affected by what happens within the dark worlds (i.e., Berdly and Tenna). It's just that they can't escape the dark worlds without reverting to their object forms, but that doesn't disprove that they still have an impact on the light world

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Also the verse in question has a Universal Energy System, Deltarune doesn't

Are you sure about that ? Because we literaly see the knight absorving light.

 

[IDK3465]

Also the verse in question has a Universal Energy System, Deltarune doesn't

I don't see that in the verse page, nor his profile, can you show me where you found that out?

 

[Qurbonboev]

The boy creates an actual building size space on the same layer of reality as the real world

And Fountains create actual city sized space and on same layer of reality(which is default assumption, you would need to disprove it)

 

[GodlyCharmander]

ok, but like... isn't the whole thing with the fountains that they transform what normally isn't real INTO something that's real? Showing a separate side to reality and all that?
Like, it's not as if they're still inanimate objects within the darkness, they are REALLY there doing their stuff, and lightners can and HAVE been affected by them (i.e. Berdly). It's just that they can't escape the dark worlds without reverting to their object forms

It transforms reality into an illusion, to quote Ralsei:

You see, Susie. You and Krislive in the "Light World."
A place where everything is as you see.
That is... as long as there's light.
You see, when it gets dark...
Things become more indistinct.
A chair can look like a monster.
A poster can look like it's moving.
Your eyes can't see the truth anymore.
And when the light runs out...
You see nothing.
Of course, your mind can't make anything of nothing.
But what if?
What if it became even darker?
Darker than dark.
What if we could take awaythe light that wasn't there
Until we reached another side?
If that were to happen...
You could start to see things again.
And hear them.
And feel them.
That is the Dark World, Susie.
An alternate view of reality through the lens of shadow.
In other words...
... an illusion.
The Dark Fountains change everything into a fantasy.
In the Light World, in reality...
Lancer is just an average playing card.
Queen... is just a laptop.
In other words... when the lights come back on...
This world is no longer "real".
The places you go, the people you meet... none of them are.
Even I, the one telling you this... I too, am...

Every aspect of damage from the Dark World is a placebo effect. Berdly isn't frozen when you return to the dark world, he is just "cold". His wing isn't "fried", it stops working. Immersion causes the brain to cause these effects, like how you feel pain on a fake hand if it's placed on your real hand.

And Fountains create actual city sized space and on same layer of reality(which is default assumption, you would need to disprove it)

Chapter 3. Deltarune isn't UES.

Like please read the quote above. The Ralsei quote is making all the heavy lifting here. He literally does not describe the Dark World as an alternate dimension, a pocket reality, or a constructed space. He describes it as an alternate view of reality, specifically filtered through darkness, and then calls it an illusion outright. The Dark Fountains do not create something new, they transform the perception of what already exists.

On the Berdly point specifically. The game is consistently careful with that language and it is not accidental. These are psychosomatic consequences of immersion, which is a documented real-world phenomenon. Intense enough sensory immersion causes the brain to manifest physical symptoms corresponding to perceived experience. The rubber hand illusion is the simplest version of this, pain registers on a fake hand because the brain accepts the sensory framing. Berdly's symptoms are consistent with that mechanism and inconsistent with actual physical damage to a real space affecting a real body.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I don't see that in the verse page, nor his profile, can you show me where you found that out?

This is a requirement for these things to even be scaled.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

In other words... when the lights come back on...
This world is no longer "real".
The places you go, the people you meet... none of them are.
Even I, the one telling you this... I too, am...

Ralsei i literally can control time and literally interact with you

Stop telling half-truth based on your opinions on darkners

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

This is a requirement for these things to even be scaled.

Also Deltarune have Ues through the light of mind quote and the fact darkners are affected by the memories.

 

[IDK3465]

It transforms reality into an illusion, to quote Ralsei:


Every aspect of damage from the Dark World is a placebo effect. Berdly isn't frozen when you return to the dark world, he is just "cold". His wing isn't "fried", it stops working. Immersion causes the brain to cause these effects, like how you feel pain on a fake hand if it's placed on your real hand.


Chapter 3. Deltarune isn't UES.

Like please read the quote above. The Ralsei quote is making all the heavy lifting here. He literally does not describe the Dark World as an alternate dimension, a pocket reality, or a constructed space. He describes it as an alternate view of reality, specifically filtered through darkness, and then calls it an illusion outright. The Dark Fountains do not create something new, they transform the perception of what already exists.

On the Berdly point specifically. The game is consistently careful with that language and it is not accidental. These are psychosomatic consequences of immersion, which is a documented real-world phenomenon. Intense enough sensory immersion causes the brain to manifest physical symptoms corresponding to perceived experience. The rubber hand illusion is the simplest version of this, pain registers on a fake hand because the brain accepts the sensory framing. Berdly's symptoms are consistent with that mechanism and inconsistent with actual physical damage to a real space affecting a real body.

I'm just going to be real with you: I hate the idea that the Dark Worlds, the Darkners, and basically the entire plot aren't real in any way and are just illusions. That'd be the most anticlimactic, saddest way to end the story, feasible "oh yeah, all those fun and quirky characters and worlds you got to see, and the big climactic event alluded to all this time? Not actually real, sowwy :["
It just feels so utterly contradictory to the story Deltarune is trying to tell that I simply refuse to believe it.

That being said, uh, doesn't Tenna's destruction and the items staying in the party's inventory kinda disprove your whole argument? We see everyone passed out the moment the fountains are sealed. Do you really think they were sleepwalking the entire time, picking up and destroying random bs?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Personal opinion about the story.

Ok.

That being said, uh, doesn't Tenna's destruction and the items staying in the party's inventory kinda disprove your whole argument? We see everyone passed out the moment the fountains are sealed. Do you really think they were sleepwalking the entire time, picking up and destroying random bs?

No?... Tenna was destroyed by a Lightner. AND the items are just real mundane objects.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Every aspect of damage from the Dark World is a placebo effect

So let's be clear here.
You think that DWs are just perceptual in nature.
When Noelle casts Snowgrave onto unsuspecting bird, nothing actually happens. Noelle imagines that she is casting it, Berdly imagines that ice spell is being casted on him.
Whatever things Darkners do is literally illusion.
Correct?