An archangel's fall - Massive Adam downgrades (Hazbin Hotel)

[Anonymous_Learner]

It can't be dura neg since it doesn't cut through everything like butter and some things outright block it, like Alastor's shield or Charlie's shield

AW are just wonky (like most things in the verse)

 

[StrymULTRA]

short version is, "AW harm Lucifer (the same guy who powered the thing that caused the Tier 5 feat which felt like a "Bad tickle"), Alastor's shield tanks multiple hits from AW, Adam is required to step in and oneshots it"

You are NOT refuting stuff lol.

This would mean that Alastor has shields that are more durable than Lucifer himself which makes no sense tbh, as that'd make Adam > Alastor's shield >= Lucifer.

I just won't that as an angelic weapon upscale like at all.

None said he is physically that, but he simply has no business making something that is beyond the abilities of the literal King of Hell, it narratively is nonsensical. Incredulity all you want but we do need to have a limit here.

It just is a feat of MoJ through Carmilla's prep and nothing else, there's nothing in Alastor's magic that even hints at him being above Lucifer in any aspect whatsoever, especially given that Alastor is nowhere close to even touch Lucifer at all in terms of power. Any AW scaling because it's made of the same metal is equivalent of saying that any sinner should scale to Alastor because they're all demons.

Plus, how do you counter the idea of Adam being still harmed by Alastor despite being stronger? That's a big anti feat you cannot just ignore.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Hey man, if you wanna talk about in Discord, i could do it for you if you feel a lack of motivation

Thanks for the support bro, but I didn't mean a literal depression of mine (in case you thought I did), it was just a reference to US Great Depression because Pilot Alastor joked about it (soooo many orphans) and canonically died it in that era. In reality I just have lots of exams rn (they are ending soon tho), so not that active.

 

[ShionAH]

I don't respect the CRT enough to craft an argument so I'll copy and past my earlier ones

---

Adam takes a surprise hit, a DOUBLE KICK to the spin and takes NO DAMAGE from this, gets backhanded by True Form Charlie and Lucifer. Then a TRANSFORMED (remember this means Lucifer is stronger than normal) Lucifer COATING HIS PUNCHES WITH MAGIC (remember this means Lucifer hits harder than normal) lands 10 hits. And what does Adam have? A NOSE BLEED, BLACK EYE AND A BRUISE. He gets back up IN LESS THAN 10 SECONDS.

We know the transformations can happen during a fit of extreme rage, hatred or getting into battle and it allowed Vox went from being barely able to keep up with ALASTORS MINIONS to basically stat stomping Alastor after transforming, literally ragdolling him. Sera went from being only able to create a small orb to a dimensional Heaven barrier just by BARELY transforming into her PARTIAL FORM.

NONE of us are saying Adam directly scales to Lucifer at all, he downscales from Lucifer. Which is exactly what was shown in screen especially with him dodging EVERY holy light INCLUDING the ones that threatened her daughter.

Now tell me what descriptions fits the Adam eating 14 punches with only minimal injuries from a double amped Lucifer?

Some characters are capable of withstanding damage to the point where an attack only leaves little to no damage on their bodies. In other instances, some characters are less wounded from attacks that seriously harmed others. Sometimes characters are only capable of wounding others because of using sharp attacks which are able to leave more noticeable wounds than blunt attacks.,

Many characters have been shown to survive attacks far above their durability, usually surviving with large injuries that others on their scale usually wouldn't survive. This is because of endurance, as they can endure a certain amount of pain regardless if the attack has burned them or sliced off limbs. This is not a durability factor, as this is a quality that is commonly attributed to willpower.

I will also give examples!!

Our wiki accepts feats such as THIS as "surviving" that wouldn't scale to durability.

• Trafalgar Law surviving Doflamingo's string cutting off his arm.

Yes. A WHOLE ARM IS GONE. BUT OFC!!! Adam's bruise in the cheek is comparable to losing your arm so he doesn't even downscale? RIGHT GUYS?? COME ON!!

You know whats even FUNNIER? The DOUBLE Horse kick from Lucifer (which is 4x more force than anything a Horse can do so likely applies here) would count as Adam NO SELLING!!

Magic Amped Demon Lucifer > Demon Lucifer > Partial Demon Lucifer > Base Lucifer would be the scaling chain.

Adam took a dozen of hits from the first Lucifer and got back up in under ten seconds. Yet he wouldn't downscale at all? What are we doing?

"BUT SHION? Adam can't do anything to Lucifer!!"

Overpowers Octopus Lucifer.

Lucifer dodges his beam despite it targeting the hotel and Charlie... bum father

---

I don't even see the point of that argument "Lucifer was smiling and laughing" so what? He hates Adam and is beating him up, but he is very clearly super angry. Demon forms don't come out naturally it happens during serious battle, distress or pure anger. Its also a super good boost in power.

Then we also have the fact that he stops trying to kill Adam only after Charlie says that he shouldn't, which means he WAS trying and wanting to kill Adam beforehand.

It also doesn't make sense WHY Lucifer would be holding back at all? Especially when we have many things proving and supporting otherwise, why would he not try to do more than a bruise and a nose bleed lol?

If I punched you over a dozen times clean in the face Strym, you would look WAY worse. So I am not listening to any "uhh but he WAS hurt!!"

---

Anyways moving on to Angelic Weapon scaling, as we all know angelic weapons are becoming 5-B due to directly stabbing into Lucifer in Might of Lilith and even Adam himself despite him eating those punches with basic injuries. Despite this fact they couldn't pierce into Alastor's forcefield and it kept the Exorcist outside and then Adam well... you know lol. I didn't see any actual arguments to this?

For Alastor, Adam has directly implied he hasn't been hurt in a while when Charlie tagged him. He also has no injuries or anything, he just strokes his chin because he is smart

I'll respond to heat arguments later when I feel like it, then I'll leave it as is because I know how stubborn you are about this and back and forth isn't gonna help either.

 

[Eseseso]

Agree with OP, disagree with the people saying tier 5 Angelic Weapons.

The main anti-feat against this I can think of is how Vaggi's Angelic spear can't do any damage to Lucifer's glass cell yet Vox's claws can leave visible claw marks, so that would make Vox's claws tier 5. See the problem?

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

Plus, how do you counter the idea of Adam being still harmed by Alastor despite being stronger? That's a big anti feat you cannot just ignore.

Counter? Counter Alastor agenda? Hell nah
I've always said Alastor's part of the big 3 and harmed adam. i don't counter it, i embrace Adam>=Alastor

 

[ShionAH]

he was beating him up with smiling and laughing

I can't believe how much this single argument pissed me off

 

[Mythic381]

The main anti-feat against this I can think of is how Vaggi's Angelic spear can't do any damage to Lucifer's glass cell yet Vox's claws can leave visible claw marks, so that would make Vox's claws tier 5. See the problem?

Could be residue that the glass scrapped off.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don't respect the CRT

Didn't ask, don't care.

Adam takes a surprise hit, a DOUBLE KICK to the spin and takes NO DAMAGE from this, gets backhanded by True Form Charlie and Lucifer. Then a TRANSFORMED (remember this means Lucifer is stronger than normal) Lucifer COATING HIS PUNCHES WITH MAGIC (remember this means Lucifer hits harder than normal) lands 10 hits. And what does Adam have? A NOSE BLEED, BLACK EYE AND A BRUISE. He gets back up IN LESS THAN 10 SECONDS.

We know the transformations can happen during a fit of extreme rage, hatred or getting into battle and it allowed Vox went from being barely able to keep up with ALASTORS MINIONS to basically stat stomping Alastor after transforming, literally ragdolling him. Sera went from being only able to create a small orb to a dimensional Heaven barrier just by BARELY transforming into her PARTIAL FORM.

NONE of us are saying Adam directly scales to Lucifer at all, he downscales from Lucifer. Which is exactly what was shown in screen especially with him dodging EVERY holy light INCLUDING the ones that threatened her daughter.

Now tell me what descriptions fits the Adam eating 14 punches with only minimal injuries from a double amped Lucifer?

OP already covers this.

1. Lucifer literally used his demon form against Adam, and was really pissed at him too, no way he was still massively holding back.

A character using their highest form does not equate them using their peak strength, as it could be just a case of them showing off. Not to mention that the argument of Lucifer being angry means that he's bloodlusted enough to not hold his punches falls apart if you admit that he wasn't before, while he has still enough reasons to be angry given that prior to the fight he has just saved Charlie from being choked to death from Adam, that already should make him super mad by this logic, but instead he was clowing on Adam on the entire fight, he was beating him up with smiling and laughing, and then in the only instance where he showed effort Charlie had to stop him, implying that was an actual killing blow.

Yes. A WHOLE ARM IS GONE. BUT OFC!!! Adam's bruise in the cheek is comparable to losing your arm so he doesn't even downscale? RIGHT GUYS?? COME ON!!

You know whats even FUNNIER? The DOUBLE Horse kick from Lucifer (which is 4x more force than anything a Horse can do so likely applies here) would count as Adam NO SELLING!!

Magic Amped Demon Lucifer > Demon Lucifer > Partial Demon Lucifer > Base Lucifer would be the scaling chain.

Adam took a dozen of hits from the first Lucifer and got back up in under ten seconds. Yet he wouldn't downscale at all? What are we doing?

One Piece scaling is notorious for being horseshit and I don't agree with that either. I have tried to minimize the usage of other verses, so please refrain from doing so also here.

"BUT SHION? Adam can't do anything to Lucifer!!"

Overpowers Octopus Lucifer.

Lucifer dodges his beam despite it targeting the hotel and Charlie... bum father

...all of them with an holding back Lucifer.

Seriously Shion, this copy-pasted wall of text does not refute the core idea on why the CRT is even made. Actually try to answer that first?

I don't even see the point of that argument "Lucifer was smiling and laughing" so what? He hates Adam and is beating him up, but he is very clearly super angry. Demon forms don't come out naturally it happens during serious battle, distress or pure anger. Its also a super good boost in power.

Then we also have the fact that he stops trying to kill Adam only after Charlie says that he shouldn't, which means he WAS trying and wanting to kill Adam beforehand.

It also doesn't make sense WHY Lucifer would be holding back at all? Especially when we have many things proving and supporting otherwise, why would he not try to do more than a bruise and a nose bleed lol?

Again, OP covers also this, with the same argument.

A character using their highest form does not equate them using their peak strength, as it could be just a case of them showing off. Not to mention that the argument of Lucifer being angry means that he's bloodlusted enough to not hold his punches falls apart if you admit that he wasn't before, while he has still enough reasons to be angry given that prior to the fight he has just saved Charlie from being choked to death from Adam, that already should make him super mad by this logic, but instead he was clowing on Adam on the entire fight, he was beating him up with smiling and laughing, and then in the only instance where he showed effort Charlie had to stop him, implying that was an actual killing blow.

Lucifer was clearly trying to humiliate Adam while ragdolling him the entire fight, in no point of the narrative he was even meant to be close to him in power.

If I punched you over a dozen times clean in the face Strym, you would look WAY worse. So I am not listening to any "uhh but he WAS hurt!!"

Should I be concerned?

Anyways moving on to Angelic Weapon scaling, as we all know angelic weapons are becoming 5-B due to directly stabbing into Lucifer in Might of Lilith and even Adam himself despite him eating those punches with basic injuries. Despite this fact they couldn't pierce into Alastor's forcefield and it kept the Exorcist outside and then Adam well... you know lol. I didn't see any actual arguments to this?

It just is a feat of MoJ through Carmilla's prep and nothing else, there's nothing in Alastor's magic that even hints at him being above Lucifer in any aspect whatsoever, especially given that Alastor is nowhere close to even touch Lucifer at all in terms of power. Any AW scaling because it's made of the same metal is equivalent of saying that any sinner should scale to Alastor because they're all demons.

Plus, how do you counter the idea of Adam being still harmed by Alastor despite being stronger? That's a big anti feat you cannot just ignore.

This is the third time I refute you with stuff I already said. Get better.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Anyway gotta go to sleep as it's past 10 PM here and I have to go to work tomorrow so gn.

Please behave in the meantime y'all.

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

you what? pulling and itadori, "it doesn't matter"
i agreen with the CRT

 

[LittleGuy99]

Agree

 

[Mythic381]

Lucifer was not exactly bloodlusted, but he was just angry due to Adam coming to mess up with his home and even attempting to kill Charlie. However, if we see the scene that I have linked above, we see the following:

You don't have to be bloodlusted to use your FP or something close to that, as it would be illogical to assume Lucifer somehow was able to hold back millions of energy so he doesn't put a hole through Adam, that's not something you can really confirm without much evidence besides "he wasn't taking him seriously."

Obviously there's characters who can do that, but they have straight up statements mentioning that.

It does not read to me that Lucifer was using a fraction of his true strength against Adam, but was rather just taking it easy as way to humiliate him, something he's always been doing at the start of the fight.

It wouldn't have required him to enter his full demon form and get this angry if he was just looking to humiliate him. We already know that full demon forms are indeed triggered by being enraged.

and the only real ounce of him using some kind of visible effort was when he was about to use the fireball, and only then Charlie stopped her father.

I don't think you need to see visible effort to see that his punches are notably at his level, even if he was holding back that much.

Adam groaning and being visibly in pain after one of Alastor's sneak attacks.

Which was denied several times for Alastor to scale to Adam via that as it did noticeably no damage to Adam.

Adam is not absurdly stronger than Alastor despite being able to one-shot him at full strenght,

I think the fact he didn't show any marks and only make small noises proves that he is absurdly stronger than Alastor.

and yes, a x2 gap is already treated as enough to one shot in some verses, so this kinda falls in this category too coincidentally enough.

Whataboutism?

This seems to be a case-by-case thing, no? Not every verse has it.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Because of this, the degree of the heat hax should be fully removed and left without a value.

Disregarding everything else, can't we hust give Adam beams 177 C°, cus they heat Nifty, who is fine when inside oven that bakes cookies(usually 350F is used for cookies).
Or this value is too small to add to profile?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Y'all really should be more creative because the OP already does cover these debunks, again, sigh.

You don't have to be bloodlusted to use your FP or something close to that, as it would be illogical to assume Lucifer somehow was able to hold back millions of energy so he doesn't put a hole through Adam, that's not something you can really confirm without much evidence besides "he wasn't taking him seriously."

Obviously there's characters who can do that, but they have straight up statements mentioning that.

Yours is incredulity, I already did explain in OP why that is indeed possible.

As mentioned above, if we take Alastor as Tier 7 and Adam as Tier 5, the gap between them would be of literally sextillions of times, in no way one can hold back their durability that much without some kind of explanation or verse mechanic that is nowhere in Hellaverse, unlike with Attack Potency given that we can indeed hold back enough to avoid crushing bugs by accident while holding them. There are several magnitudes between those tiers, and one cannot just drop their physical durability like that by just being relaxed.

These verses do not have straight up statements mentioning that a character can hold back millions of times (like Beerus from Dragon isn't stated to use an uncountable infinitely small fraction of his power when fighting the Tier 3 Goku), when their feats are the ones doing the talk.

Hazbin Hotel is once again a visual medium due to its nature as a TV series, we can use visual elements as narrative tools to see the intended message of the scene.

It wouldn't have required him to enter his full demon form and get this angry if he was just looking to humiliate him. We already know that full demon forms are indeed triggered by being enraged.

I don't think you need to see visible effort to see that his punches are notably at his level, even if he was holding back that much.

Both of these are already covered by OP:

A character using their highest form does not equate them using their peak strength, as it could be just a case of them showing off. Not to mention that the argument of Lucifer being angry means that he's bloodlusted enough to not hold his punches falls apart if you admit that he wasn't before, while he has still enough reasons to be angry given that prior to the fight he has just saved Charlie from being choked to death from Adam, that already should make him super mad by this logic, but instead he was clowing on Adam on the entire fight, he was beating him up with smiling and laughing, and then in the only instance where he showed effort Charlie had to stop him, implying that was an actual killing blow.

Lucifer was clearly trying to humiliate Adam while ragdolling him the entire fight, in no point of the narrative he was even meant to be close to him in power.

Which was denied several times for Alastor to scale to Adam via that as it did noticeably no damage to Adam.

Inflicting pain is something that deals damage to you, no matter how small. Are you saying that bug bites are "no damage" despite them clearly piercing your skin and causing pain?

Plus this is argument from tradition, worry about refuting it here rather than hiding behind a "we've already discussed this!"

I think the fact he didn't show any marks and only make small noises proves that he is absurdly stronger than Alastor.

Ok so first you say that Lucifer cannot hold back magnutudes of times, but now you say that Adam can?

It does not work like that, I've already covered why it's not possible for characters to reduce their durability trillions of times by just going easy on something, we'd be turned into paste if we move while relaxed otherwise. You'd need a verse mechanic justifying why is that the case, something that Hellaverse lacks.

This seems to be a case-by-case thing, no? Not every verse has it.

Mine was more of a supporting point.

Also whataboutism helps indeed if other verses have the exact same situation, it helps to uncover double standards, biases and hypocrisy from the site.

Disregarding everything else, can't we hust give Adam beams 177 C°, cus they heat Nifty, who is fine when inside oven that bakes cookies(usually 350F is used for cookies).
Or this value is too small to add to profile?

She was unaffected from being into fire, so adding a note is not necessary.

Also I have noticed on Niffty's profile that she's noted to have "tanked" Adam's heat blast while on Adam's profile it's said that the shockwave let her steam, which a circular thing that has to be removed.

 

[Hecky2222]

Agree

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

I actually agreed with CRT

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Actually yeah, forgot we had Adam's Holy Beams as being = to his physicals, what's the thought process behind Lucifer dodging them like the plague, even the one that was aimed at and destroyed the Hotel? And almost hit Charlie too? It seems really weird if he actually could Broly facetank it the whole time.

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

yeah, it feels weird that he dodge every single one, including the one that endangered his daughter (the person he loves the most and who he was there to save) if he could facetank

 

[StrymULTRA]

Actually yeah, forgot we had Adam's Holy Beams as being = to his physicals, what's the thought process behind Lucifer dodging them like the plague, even the one that was aimed at and destroyed the Hotel? And almost hit Charlie too? It seems really weird if he actually could Broly facetank it the whole time.

"He had to dodge X attack = X attack must hurt him if it hit" are arguments that this wiki generally hates.

It's not just that the reason why one dodges an attack, it could also to flex their acrobatic skills, them just not wanting to be touched from their opponent, or also because being hit in general is annoying.

A lot of martial arts based verses always involve the characters constantly parrying and/or dodging mundane weapons like bullets despite them being fully bulletproof by their stats anyways, given that it's more a way to display how skilled those fighters are rather than telling you that they're vulnerable to common bullets lol.

Also the idea was of just trolling Adam by constantly dodging his attacks and poking him, just tank everything like Senator Armstrong does wouldn't give the same effect.

 

[ShionAH]

He risked his daughters life and her dream the Hotel to show off?

It doesn’t add up, which is why you deliberately ignored that context of the dodge.

 

[Mythic381]

Yours is incredulity, I already did explain in OP why that is indeed possible.

Your example is talking about the difference between a human and ant. You do realize that difference between both and the difference between Lucifer and Adam is here is enormously larger. You can't justify a difference that bigger via something with an even smaller difference.

These verses do not have straight up statements mentioning that a character can hold back millions of times (like Beerus from Dragon isn't stated to use an uncountable infinitely small fraction of his power when fighting the Tier 3 Goku), when their feats are the ones doing the talk.

Beerus doesn't have a any keys below 2-C for holding back, nor does Goku have one while fighting Beerus. Not to mention Beerus does mention he was holding back against him.

Hazbin Hotel is once again a visual medium due to its nature as a TV series, we can use visual elements as narrative tools to see the intended message of the scene.

Visual elements being "Lucifer laughing = Lucifer holding back?" Laughing isn't exactly an indicator that you aren't at FP, especially when we're talking about someone who just used his demon form, something triggered by emotions.

Both of these are already covered by OP:

A character using their highest form does not equate them using their peak strength, as it could be just a case of them showing off.

Why would he be showing off? He clearly enters his demon form because he was enraged. What exactly would be the thought process behind that besides him wanting to beat him up even more? He was perfectly capable of beating him in his base form.

Not to mention that the argument of Lucifer being angry means that he's bloodlusted enough to not hold his punches falls apart if you admit that he wasn't before,

That's not true at all. He literally landed a total of like 1 hit against Adam before going demon form, and these hits were clearly shown not be serious at all.

while he has still enough reasons to be angry given that prior to the fight he has just saved Charlie from being choked to death from Adam, that already should make him super mad by this logic,

Yeah, and did the scene where they fight show him actually being angry? No.

but instead he was clowing on Adam on the entire fight, he was beating him up with smiling and laughing, and then in the only instance where he showed effort Charlie had to stop him, implying that was an actual killing blow.

He was clowning Adam while not even fighting seriously as again, he landed like 2 hits across their fight before he entered his demon from. Also the "killing blow" was just him using his magic, and it's not like he has UES for anything besides his light.

Inflicting pain is something that deals damage to you, no matter how small. Are you saying that bug bites are "no damage" despite them clearly piercing your skin and causing pain?

We quite literally have bugs who can damage humans and only scale to "10-C, possibly higher" There's an extent that damaging something will not scale you to it.

Plus this is argument from tradition, worry about refuting it here rather than hiding behind a "we've already discussed this!"

That is LITERALLY a regular thing that happens across threads. Why do you think discussion rules exist? So people don't repeat arguments perhaps?

Ok so first you say that Lucifer cannot hold back magnutudes of times, but now you say that Adam can?

It does not work like that, I've already covered why it's not possible for characters to reduce their durability trillions of times by just going easy on something, we'd be turned into paste if we move while relaxed otherwise. You'd need a verse mechanic justifying why is that the case, something that Hellaverse lacks.

Uh, what? I didn't say that? I clearly said Adam is absurdly stronger than Alastor, because Alastor's strongest hits didn't even make visible damage besides making Adam move back. I didn't say Adam held back his durability so Alastor could harm him.

Also whataboutism helps indeed if other verses have the exact same situation, it helps to uncover double standards, biases and hypocrisy from the site.

Again, it's a joke, which is why I striked it. I'm poking fun at the TADC thread.

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

hmm, back to disagreeing with the tier 5 downgrade

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ok that's more than what I can reply to rn. Will come here this evening to reply to everything.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Actually yeah, forgot we had Adam's Holy Beams as being = to his physicals, what's the thought process behind Lucifer dodging them like the plague, even the one that was aimed at and destroyed the Hotel? And almost hit Charlie too? It seems really weird if he actually could Broly facetank it the whole time.

"He had to dodge X attack = X attack must hurt him if it hit" are arguments that this wiki generally hates

He risked his daughters life and her dream the Hotel to show off?

It doesn’t add up, which is why you deliberately ignored that context of the dodge.

Him dodging attacks isn't sufficient evidence that he was threatened by them. His profile doesn't even have heat resistance(if it's just outdated, you are safe to ignore rest of paragraph) , so Adam beams should at least inflict pain to Lucifer if he decided to facetank them, thus giving him reason to avoid them

But him not face tanking attacks that would have endanger Hotel and his daughter could constitute such evidence. Whether it does constitute valid evidence depends of several parameters:
Geometry of fight and beam, Lucifer spatial awareness and battle IQ(Example: beam fired at Lucifer would hit Charlie, but Lucifer doesn't immediately deduce this fact, since he doesn't know relative positions and decides to dodge beam as usual), on how seriously he takes situation.
I will leave it to sups decide whether there was a situation in fight where Lucifer was aware that incoming beam would hit Hotel/Charlie/any important for him characters and decide to dodge it instead of facetanking it.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Tbf, Lu is dumb.

 

[AppleMaker]

Tbf, Lu is dumb.

Who's Lu?

 

[Ruby_R_Dracula]

Who's Lu?

Either The Big Boss of Hell or Lucifer idk

 

[Mythic381]

Either The Big Boss of Hell or Lucifer idk

Definitely the Big Boss of Hell. Why would Lucifer even be called Lu?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Your example is talking about the difference between a human and ant. You do realize that difference between both and the difference between Lucifer and Adam is here is enormously larger. You can't justify a difference that bigger via something with an even smaller difference.

You're now nitpicking the number, if you don't like a irl example then I'll use a "whataboutism" about how every verse with Tier 2/1 beings would be completely be incapable of functioning by your logic, given that holding back by an uncountable infinite degree is impossible yet these beings can most of the time hold themselves enough to keep living normally on a common planet without destroying their surroundings by just touching them.

Visual elements being "Lucifer laughing = Lucifer holding back?" Laughing isn't exactly an indicator that you aren't at FP, especially when we're talking about someone who just used his demon form, something triggered by emotions.

Again, being angry is not the same as going all-out. The burden is on you to prove it instead of going by vibes.

A way to tell that Lucifer was going at full strength is to showcase him using concentrated attacks in a rapid pace, having a more focused expression, showing actual intent in wanting to finish off Adam for good, but none of that is shown.

Why would he be showing off? He clearly enters his demon form because he was enraged. What exactly would be the thought process behind that besides him wanting to beat him up even more? He was perfectly capable of beating him in his base form.

Aura farming is indeed a thing, and yes, he definitely could beat him in base form, he just wanted to flex there given that Adam was getting moolywhooped by just Lucifer's base and was sent flying by a single punch in said base state.

Yeah, and did the scene where they fight show him actually being angry? No.

So you're telling me that he was not mad at literally seeing his daughter almost being killed by being choked to death, but went completely furious by Adam attemping (and failing) to deliver a punch to both him and Charlie? Be real.

He was clowning Adam while not even fighting seriously as again, he landed like 2 hits across their fight before he entered his demon from. Also the "killing blow" was just him using his magic, and it's not like he has UES for anything besides his light.

Why would UES matter here?

We quite literally have bugs who can damage humans and only scale to "10-C, possibly higher" There's an extent that damaging something will not scale you to it.

Actually they're 10-C precisely because they can harm us, just that said damage requires such a big gap in order to be so small.

Your example also does not work because the higher the tier, the higher is the gap between it and the tiers before it. Because of this, dealing even minimal damage to stuff like Tier 5, 2, etc. is definitel warranted to give a downscaling to a degree given how large these tiers are. A Tier 8 characters objectively just cannot give even the minimal damage to a Tier 7 one, and we're already being "low" compared to the Tier categories I've mentioned.

That is LITERALLY a regular thing that happens across threads. Why do you think discussion rules exist? So people don't repeat arguments perhaps?

There is not one for Hazbin Hotel regarding this topic, you cannot tell me to shut up about it because there's no rule that is being broken in the first place.

Uh, what? I didn't say that? I clearly said Adam is absurdly stronger than Alastor, because Alastor's strongest hits didn't even make visible damage besides making Adam move back. I didn't say Adam held back his durability so Alastor could harm him.

Harming IS dealing damage. A Low 7-C character just objectively can't harm a 5-B one, the gap is well beyond septillions of times, far more than your insect vs human analogy.

He risked his daughters life and her dream the Hotel to show off?

It doesn’t add up, which is why you deliberately ignored that context of the dodge.

Tbf one could just chalk it off as Lucifer just not giving a shit. He wasn't particulairly bothered by it in the aftermath of the last episode, and neither was Charlie considering that they easily rebuilt the hotel anyways.

 

[ShionAH]

few problems

the punch Adam took from Base Lucifer was when he was completely caught off guard, especially since we saw Adam no sell a double kick to his spine from Base Lucifer right after

the Hotel symbolizes her dreams, getting it destroyed even if rebuilt hurt Charlie emotionally. But thats not even the main point, its the fact that SHE almost died or got injured because of it. Lucifer is not gonna risk Charlie’s life to aurafarm, what are we even talking about…

 

[StrymULTRA]

the punch Adam took from Base Lucifer was when he was completely caught off guard, especially since we saw Adam no sell a double kick to his spine from Base Lucifer right after

It still massively harmed him, so?

Plus Lucifer was clowning around, that's why he took "no damage", prove me that Lucifer was trying to actually injure Adam here.

the Hotel symbolizes her dreams, getting it destroyed even if rebuilt hurt Charlie emotionally. But thats not even the main point, its the fact that SHE almost died or got injured because of it. Lucifer is not gonna risk Charlie’s life to aurafarm, what are we even talking about…

We saw from the aftermath that their reactions were not that dramatic because of the Hotel being destroyed because they just as easily rebuilt it.

Also, Lucifer just knew that it was not gonna hit Charlie, it's not like Adam was using an omnidirectional blast, the trajectory and size of the beam were pretty evident.

 

[ShionAH]

It still massively harmed him, so?

It gave him a bruise and a nose bleed, from an off guard punch sent by someone stronger than you thats not bad at all.

You sucker punch me, I might get the same injuries. Maybe even more if its a clean hit like it happened to Adam. People get knocked out by those…

Plus Lucifer was clowning around, that's why he took "no damage", prove me that Lucifer was trying to actually injure Adam here.

Prove to me he wasn’t? Being playful doesn’t mean he wasn’t trying to hurt Adam. Especially not to a degree where this supposed Tier 7 character takes Tier 5 attacks.

We saw from the aftermath that their reactions were not that dramatic because of the Hotel being destroyed because they just as easily rebuilt it.

She was pretty sad to see the Hotel destroyed and obviously Pentious death, only after the song they got over it and rebuilt it. Either way this isnt our main point.

Also, Lucifer just knew that it was not gonna hit Charlie, it's not like Adam was using an omnidirectional blast, the trajectory and size of the beam were pretty evident.

It literally almost hit her, close enough where she instantly fell into the deep pit it created which seemed to be threatening her and Lucifer had to quickly save her. Letting that beam go was a risk to her life.

I am gonna repeat myself again, there is three separate and very fair arguments supporting Adam’s downscale. While all I see from the opposition is making assumptions about how Lucifer who buffed himself twice in a row was actually holding back like a billion times his Base strength or how the little cables of Angelic Steel is billions of times stronger than Angelic Weapons created for war or assuming Lucifer calculated the beams trajectory and how it wasn’t gonna hit Charlie only make her fall to what seems to be her death and he allowed it to happen to aura farm.

Come on. Be fr.

 

[Mythic381]

You're now nitpicking the number,

How is that nitpicking? Your comparison to be applicable here should at least hold the same value about the difference not being that astronomically large.

I'll use a "whataboutism" about how every verse with Tier 2/1 beings would be completely be incapable of functioning by your logic, given that holding back by an uncountable infinite degree is impossible yet these beings can most of the time hold themselves enough to keep living normally on a common planet without destroying their surroundings by just touching them.

Which verses do that?

Again, being angry is not the same as going all-out. The burden is on you to prove it instead of going by vibes.

Genuinely inform me how someone can control themselves while being angry. Pretty sure the default assumption would be him getting angry would mean he's at FP or close to it.

A way to tell that Lucifer was going at full strength is to showcase him using concentrated attacks in a rapid pace, having a more focused expression, showing actual intent in wanting to finish off Adam for good, but none of that is shown.

None of these are stuff that just invalidate someone being angry, have you never seen people laughing while being angry or looking like pure psychopaths? Also he did have the intent, literally the fireball he made a second later had the implication it was about to end him.

Aura farming is indeed a thing, and yes, he definitely could beat him in base form, he just wanted to flex there given that Adam was getting moolywhooped by just Lucifer's base and was sent flying by a single punch in said base state.

Genuinely want to see evidence for him wanting to apparently flex, despite already being able to do that while simply dodging his attacks, which clearly annoyed him more.

So you're telling me that he was not mad at literally seeing his daughter almost being killed by being choked to death, but went completely furious by Adam attemping (and failing) to deliver a punch to both him and Charlie? Be real.

I don't think you have the right context. Adam beforehand split the hotel, which led to her almost crashing down, and then it was followed by Adam attempting to take him off-guard, which could've done damage to Charlie.

Why would UES matter here?

I'm just referring to the fireball not being an implication of Lucifer being even stronger than that physically, since he wouldn't scale to it if it killed Adam.

Actually they're 10-C precisely because they can harm us, just that said damage requires such a big gap in order to be so small.

I didn't deny that? In fact, I'm using that in my case. They can harm humans so little that they're only 10-C, possibly higher.

Your example also does not work because the higher the tier, the higher is the gap between it and the tiers before it. Because of this, dealing even minimal damage to stuff like Tier 5, 2, etc. is definitel warranted to give a downscaling to a degree given how large these tiers are. A Tier 8 characters objectively just cannot give even the minimal damage to a Tier 7 one, and we're already being "low" compared to the Tier categories I've mentioned.

The hit genuinely did not do anything to him that I see even warrants downscaling. The guy was literally LS stomped by it and thrown into a billboard, and came just annoyed.

There is not one for Hazbin Hotel regarding this topic, you cannot tell me to shut up about it because there's no rule that is being broken in the first place.

I didn't tell you to shut up about? I'm defending my point in relation to it already being rejected. It's an accepted point, so I can mention it without "hiding behind it." Yes, you can reuse the argument as it's not entirely not accepted, but I can still use it to defend my argument that it was previously rejected by mods.

 

[DaReaperMan]

How is that nitpicking? Your comparison to be applicable here should at least hold the same value about the difference not being that astronomically large.

Which verses do that?

Dragon Ball, Midway Mortal Kombat, Star Wars, Heroes of the Storm, Diablo, Starcraft...

 

[StrymULTRA]

Prove to me he wasn’t? Being playful doesn’t mean he wasn’t trying to hurt Adam. Especially not to a degree where this supposed Tier 7 character takes Tier 5 attacks.

If fictions can have Tier 2 characters not making Tier 10s explode by touching them, the same can happen here.

Also, being playful is indeed an indicator of not wanting to really harm most of the time, don't tell me you did never push someone as a playful joke with no real intent to harm them.

It literally almost hit her, close enough where she instantly fell into the deep pit it created which seemed to be threatening her and Lucifer had to quickly save her. Letting that beam go was a risk to her life.

Yeah? It's still that the beam did not seem that large, plus it could also be just Lucifer doing a mistake, he did plenty in the series.

I am gonna repeat myself again, there is three separate and very fair arguments supporting Adam’s downscale. While all I see from the opposition is making assumptions about how Lucifer who buffed himself twice in a row was actually holding back like a billion times his Base strength or how the little cables of Angelic Steel is billions of times stronger than Angelic Weapons created for war or assuming Lucifer calculated the beams trajectory and how it wasn’t gonna hit Charlie only make her fall to what seems to be her death and he allowed it to happen to aura farm.

Buffing yourself is not the same as using your full strength, there are several cases and verses where characters use their highest forms to just show off despite being already able to obliterate their foe in much weaker ones (Dragon Ball as an example), why can't it be the same here?

Which verses do that?

Dragon Ball, Midway Mortal Kombat, Star Wars, Heroes of the Storm, Diablo, Starcraft...

This but including also Touhou, Sonic (both Game and Archie), Kirby, Super Smash Bros, Nipponverse...

Genuinely inform me how someone can control themselves while being angry. Pretty sure the default assumption would be him getting angry would mean he's at FP or close to it.

You do realize that not everyone is the Hulk right? Controlled rage exists, and people can just be sadists while still furious against an opponent they want a vendetta against. Slowly torturing them is better than just one-shotting them at times.

I'm just referring to the fireball not being an implication of Lucifer being even stronger than that physically, since he wouldn't scale to it if it killed Adam.

This is just strawmanning the argument, I just said that the Lucifer's fireball is the first real indicator of him actually being serious, that is where Charlie had to step in.

The hit genuinely did not do anything to him that I see even warrants downscaling. The guy was literally LS stomped by it and thrown into a billboard, and came just annoyed.

It caused pain, you cannot cause pain if you are too weaker than your opponent, again. Why was Adam even rubbing his chin and showing clear discomfort?

Well, for starters, Alastor is Low 7-C, more specifically 1.03 Kilotons, and Adam's best feat outside of the debunked vaporization one and the Lucifer scaling is him splitting a cliff is 2.51 Kilotons instead, making the gap here of x2.44, which is something that yes, it fits Adam being strong enough to easily destroy one of Alastor's biggest shields with a single punch, but also fits Adam groaning and being visibly in pain after one of Alastor's sneak attacks.

This is not something that can happen if your natural durability is 1.675e21 (or, 1.675 sextillion) times higher than the attack, one cannot hold their durability that much, no matter how you slice it.

Still quoting OP, the best feats both characters performed and the gap between them just supports that Adam cannot be that much stronger than Alastor anyways.

Also I am not replying to stuff that I think it's either irrelevant or already covered, things genuiely start to seem circular already.

 

[ShionAH]

If fictions can have Tier 2 characters not making Tier 10s explode by touching them, the same can happen here.

I don’t know a universe where a character taking a dozen of hits to the face with minimal injuries against an amped Tier 5 character is actually Tier 7, thats simply wrong. Logically.

Also, being playful is indeed an indicator of not wanting to really harm most of the time, don't tell me you did never push someone as a playful joke with no real intent to harm them.

Oh yeah because me laughing and pushing my pal is the same as Lucifer kicking one of his biggest enemies in the spine with a horse double kick. Excuse me? Lucifer is mocking him not actually “playing” with him, they aren’t friends. He wants to harm Adam.

Yeah? It's still that the beam did not seem that large, plus it could also be just Lucifer doing a mistake, he did plenty in the series.

This is straight up a cop out. You cannot be seriously thinking Lucifer risked Charlie’s life to aurafarm, what the ****?? And he isn’t THAT dumb, he would have face tanked it if he could.

I trust the staff members enough to know this wont pass so I am not gonna try further especially when I also know the Mega CRT would add another 5-B feat to Adam anyway but I am curious if you like seriously believe your arguments??

Lucifer was mega holding back despite nothing implying that despite being furious despite being in his demon form which is consistently a huge amp and used in either huge anger, distress or battle despite amping his fists with fire?? Lucifer was aurafarming despite knowing it risks Charlie’s life?? I don’t say this much but did you even actually WATCH the show? You cannot seriously think Lucifer doesn’t care about the Hotel’s well being after Ep 5 let alone Charlie herself…

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

He did coat his fist with fire too when he tried to punch Vox #noticing

 

[ShionAH]

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don’t know a universe where a character taking a dozen of hits to the face with minimal injuries against an amped Tier 5 character is actually Tier 7, thats simply wrong. Logically.

Dragon Ball is indeed a case here, only that replace Tier 5 and 7 with Tier 2 and 4.

Oh yeah because me laughing and pushing my pal is the same as Lucifer kicking one of his biggest enemies in the spine with a horse double kick. Excuse me? Lucifer is mocking him not actually “playing” with him, they aren’t friends. He wants to harm Adam.

You do realize that he was planning to mainly just piss him off while also humiating him right?

Also playing is indeed a way to mock the opponent, isn't being treated as just a plaything and not a real opponent humiliating?

I trust the staff members enough to know this wont pass so I am not gonna try further especially when I also know the Mega CRT would add another 5-B feat to Adam anyway but I am curious if you like seriously believe your arguments??

The 5-B feat would require Alastor to also be that with his shields, which is just not gonna fly.

This is straight up a cop out. You cannot be seriously thinking Lucifer risked Charlie’s life to aurafarm, what the ****?? And he isn’t THAT dumb, he would have face tanked it if he could.

Prove that he'd get harmed.

Lucifer was mega holding back despite nothing implying that despite being furious despite being in his demon form which is consistently a huge amp

Unquantifiable amp*

Lucifer was aurafarming despite knowing it risks Charlie’s life?? Did you even WATCH the show? You cannot seriously think Lucifer doesn’t care about the Hotel’s well being after Ep 5 let alone Charlie herself…

As I said above, it could also be just a mistake, yours is just incredulity at most lol.