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Well hello ladies and gents. This is a thread I've been waiting for a good while to make.
Credits to @TheOrangeGuy09 given that he helped with some of the arguments here.
The first is that both the AP section of the profile and the verse page have the revised calculation which uses only the pulverization end used instead, making this makes two versions of the same calculation be used simultaneously.
The second is that it being pulverization is objectively wrong, based on the following stuff:
It CLEARLY did not vaporize stuff, there was no vapor whatsoever shown in the feat, and those specks are mostly likely just dust:
In fact, the ship completely disappearing fits to a T our definition of Pulverization of this Wiki:
While he performed the "heat" feat against Pentious, a complete fodder who he was super casual against, during the battle against Lucifer where he was super angry and bloodlusted his beam does not vaporize, or even melt the Hazbin Hotel, despite the fact that the melting point of concrete is "only" 1150°C.
The aftermath shown later in the same episode show no signs of vaporization/melting either, further cementing that Adam's light beams are nowhere this hot.
Sure, he made Niffty steam with the shockwave of his beam, who has other heat resistance feats in her profile, but it's nowhere close as reaching the temperatures needed to straight up melt concrete, let alone vaporize metal lol.
Because of this, the degree of the heat hax should be fully removed and left without a value.
Edit: This CRT made this section completely redundant as Tier 5 scaling now comes from somewhere else too so huuh... nvm.
Credits to @TheOrangeGuy09 given that he helped with some of the arguments here.
The heat hax is fake
Basically, Adam has 3500 °C on his heat hax value based on this calculation (feat is here), BUT we have two issues with this.The first is that both the AP section of the profile and the verse page have the revised calculation which uses only the pulverization end used instead, making this makes two versions of the same calculation be used simultaneously.
The second is that it being pulverization is objectively wrong, based on the following stuff:
It CLEARLY did not vaporize stuff, there was no vapor whatsoever shown in the feat, and those specks are mostly likely just dust:
In fact, the ship completely disappearing fits to a T our definition of Pulverization of this Wiki:
And now let's look at the definition of Vaporization instead:
We can see that Vaporization has two requirements in order to be used as an option, with at least one of them being needing to be fulfilled:
- Was there a visible amount of vapor? No, there is not even a trace of vapor, smoke or any other gas remaint, just black specks that immediately disappeared in the air within less than a second, that is not vapor.
- Was there a statement that even implies vapor? No, the narrative gave barely attention to the aftermath and immediately shifted to Charlie, meaning that proving vaporization by at least narrative intent is impossible.
While he performed the "heat" feat against Pentious, a complete fodder who he was super casual against, during the battle against Lucifer where he was super angry and bloodlusted his beam does not vaporize, or even melt the Hazbin Hotel, despite the fact that the melting point of concrete is "only" 1150°C.
The aftermath shown later in the same episode show no signs of vaporization/melting either, further cementing that Adam's light beams are nowhere this hot.
Sure, he made Niffty steam with the shockwave of his beam, who has other heat resistance feats in her profile, but it's nowhere close as reaching the temperatures needed to straight up melt concrete, let alone vaporize metal lol.
Because of this, the degree of the heat hax should be fully removed and left without a value.
1. Fiction is not that consistent in displaying showings of heat attacks, isn't that just a case of Vivzie forgetting?
While this is indeed common and attacks can be displayed as having heat, the idea of Adam having vaporized Pentious' ship is already baseless on its own, with the beams being that hot having already insufficient evidence. All the other contradictions I have pointed out are only adding salt to the injury in displaying that Adam's beams were never meant to be that hot in the first place.
2. The ship completely disappeared from the beam and it could make Niffty steam, isn't that already evidence for the thing being vaporization?
While Niffty resisted fire, at most that is 1200 °C, which is 2.92 times lower than the supposed heat of Adam. While this may seem a small ratio, in terms of temperature this kind of gap is pretty huge, given that we humans treat as room temperature things ranging from 20 to 30 °C, and anything higher would be considered a problem, as tap water being at already 38-45 °C would be considered a source for scaling, and if we apply the ratio to 20-30 °C, we're getting temperatures of 58.4 to 87.6 °C, which would obviously deal much more severe burns! These would directly cause intense burns to us, it wouldn't just let a minor steam that left Niffty largely unaffected (and do not try to bring in the demons healing thing when one of the main things about angels is their power straight up blocking sinners' healing, so Niffty definitely was not damaged that much).
Also, whatever happened to Niffty is completely irrelevant to the feat involving the ship, it disappearing can be easily be just attributed to AP, and pulverizing it does not need particulairly high heat (otherwise we'd have to make every pulverization feat vaporization instead), especially when the beam does not fulfill neither of the requirements needed to qualify as vaporiation anyways.
While this is indeed common and attacks can be displayed as having heat, the idea of Adam having vaporized Pentious' ship is already baseless on its own, with the beams being that hot having already insufficient evidence. All the other contradictions I have pointed out are only adding salt to the injury in displaying that Adam's beams were never meant to be that hot in the first place.
2. The ship completely disappeared from the beam and it could make Niffty steam, isn't that already evidence for the thing being vaporization?
While Niffty resisted fire, at most that is 1200 °C, which is 2.92 times lower than the supposed heat of Adam. While this may seem a small ratio, in terms of temperature this kind of gap is pretty huge, given that we humans treat as room temperature things ranging from 20 to 30 °C, and anything higher would be considered a problem, as tap water being at already 38-45 °C would be considered a source for scaling, and if we apply the ratio to 20-30 °C, we're getting temperatures of 58.4 to 87.6 °C, which would obviously deal much more severe burns! These would directly cause intense burns to us, it wouldn't just let a minor steam that left Niffty largely unaffected (and do not try to bring in the demons healing thing when one of the main things about angels is their power straight up blocking sinners' healing, so Niffty definitely was not damaged that much).
Also, whatever happened to Niffty is completely irrelevant to the feat involving the ship, it disappearing can be easily be just attributed to AP, and pulverizing it does not need particulairly high heat (otherwise we'd have to make every pulverization feat vaporization instead), especially when the beam does not fulfill neither of the requirements needed to qualify as vaporiation anyways.
The Tier 5 scaling is fake
Basically the entire thing is based on Adam scaling from his durability given that he survived blows from a bloodlusted Lucifer, which sounds pretty solid at a glance, but it is invalid for deeper reasons.
Lucifer was not exactly bloodlusted, but he was just angry due to Adam coming to mess up with his home and even attempting to kill Charlie. However, if we see the scene that I have linked above, we see the following:
Yes, Adam low diffed Alastor and was stated from Roxie that the latter could never win, but it's something that hurts the idea of Adam scaling to Lucifer even more. Why?
Well, for starters, Alastor is Low 7-C, more specifically 1.03 Kilotons, and Adam's best feat outside of the debunked vaporization one and the Lucifer scaling is him splitting a cliff is 2.51 Kilotons instead, making the gap here of x2.44, which is something that yes, it fits Adam being strong enough to easily destroy one of Alastor's biggest shields with a single punch, but also fits Adam groaning and being visibly in pain after one of Alastor's sneak attacks.
This is not something that can happen if your natural durability is 1.675e21 (or, 1.675 sextillion) times higher than the attack, one cannot hold their durability that much, no matter how you slice it.
If you're going to have Alastor at Tier 7, then Adam also is, due to him scaling to Lucifer not only is already super shaky on its own, but is also not that supported given that feats wise Adam is not absurdly stronger than Alastor despite being able to one-shot him at full strenght, and yes, a x2 gap is already treated as enough to one shot in some verses, so this kinda falls in this category too coincidentally enough.
This also affect Charlie's tier too given she scales from Adam.
Lucifer was not exactly bloodlusted, but he was just angry due to Adam coming to mess up with his home and even attempting to kill Charlie. However, if we see the scene that I have linked above, we see the following:
- Lucifer throws Adam to the ground.
- Lucifer starts to punch Adam while in his demon form while smiling and laughing.
- Lucifer was about to charge a large fire attack to finish off Adam, before being stopped from Charlie, with Lucifer then using said mercy as a way to humiliate Adam anyways.
Yes, Adam low diffed Alastor and was stated from Roxie that the latter could never win, but it's something that hurts the idea of Adam scaling to Lucifer even more. Why?
Well, for starters, Alastor is Low 7-C, more specifically 1.03 Kilotons, and Adam's best feat outside of the debunked vaporization one and the Lucifer scaling is him splitting a cliff is 2.51 Kilotons instead, making the gap here of x2.44, which is something that yes, it fits Adam being strong enough to easily destroy one of Alastor's biggest shields with a single punch, but also fits Adam groaning and being visibly in pain after one of Alastor's sneak attacks.
This is not something that can happen if your natural durability is 1.675e21 (or, 1.675 sextillion) times higher than the attack, one cannot hold their durability that much, no matter how you slice it.
If you're going to have Alastor at Tier 7, then Adam also is, due to him scaling to Lucifer not only is already super shaky on its own, but is also not that supported given that feats wise Adam is not absurdly stronger than Alastor despite being able to one-shot him at full strenght, and yes, a x2 gap is already treated as enough to one shot in some verses, so this kinda falls in this category too coincidentally enough.
This also affect Charlie's tier too given she scales from Adam.
1. Lucifer literally used his demon form against Adam, and was really pissed at him too, no way he was still massively holding back.
A character using their highest form does not equate them using their peak strength, as it could be just a case of them showing off. Not to mention that the argument of Lucifer being angry means that he's bloodlusted enough to not hold his punches falls apart if you admit that he wasn't before, while he has still enough reasons to be angry given that prior to the fight he has just saved Charlie from being choked to death from Adam, that already should make him super mad by this logic, but instead he was clowing on Adam on the entire fight, he was beating him up with smiling and laughing, and then in the only instance where he showed effort Charlie had to stop him, implying that was an actual killing blow.
Lucifer was clearly trying to humiliate Adam while ragdolling him the entire fight, in no point of the narrative he was even meant to be close to him in power.
2. Adam was only caught off-guard while being casual against Alastor, meaning that the latter is not remotely close to his actual full strength.
As mentioned above, if we take Alastor as Tier 7 and Adam as Tier 5, the gap between them would be of literally sextillions of times, in no way one can hold back their durability that much without some kind of explanation or verse mechanic that is nowhere in Hellaverse, unlike with Attack Potency given that we can indeed hold back enough to avoid crushing bugs by accident while holding them. There are several magnitudes between those tiers, and one cannot just drop their physical durability like that by just being relaxed.
Yes, Adam is a one-shot above Alastor, but he needed visible effort (familiar huh?) in order to actually do so, and there's no evidence that he was holding back much, given that Alastor was taunting and provoking him constantly during the fight while also clowning on his low fighting skills, Adam just does not have a real reason to hold back there. Yes, he said that for him extermination is entertainment, but it's clear that he was not having fun there at all lol.
A character using their highest form does not equate them using their peak strength, as it could be just a case of them showing off. Not to mention that the argument of Lucifer being angry means that he's bloodlusted enough to not hold his punches falls apart if you admit that he wasn't before, while he has still enough reasons to be angry given that prior to the fight he has just saved Charlie from being choked to death from Adam, that already should make him super mad by this logic, but instead he was clowing on Adam on the entire fight, he was beating him up with smiling and laughing, and then in the only instance where he showed effort Charlie had to stop him, implying that was an actual killing blow.
Lucifer was clearly trying to humiliate Adam while ragdolling him the entire fight, in no point of the narrative he was even meant to be close to him in power.
2. Adam was only caught off-guard while being casual against Alastor, meaning that the latter is not remotely close to his actual full strength.
As mentioned above, if we take Alastor as Tier 7 and Adam as Tier 5, the gap between them would be of literally sextillions of times, in no way one can hold back their durability that much without some kind of explanation or verse mechanic that is nowhere in Hellaverse, unlike with Attack Potency given that we can indeed hold back enough to avoid crushing bugs by accident while holding them. There are several magnitudes between those tiers, and one cannot just drop their physical durability like that by just being relaxed.
Yes, Adam is a one-shot above Alastor, but he needed visible effort (familiar huh?) in order to actually do so, and there's no evidence that he was holding back much, given that Alastor was taunting and provoking him constantly during the fight while also clowning on his low fighting skills, Adam just does not have a real reason to hold back there. Yes, he said that for him extermination is entertainment, but it's clear that he was not having fun there at all lol.
Edit: This CRT made this section completely redundant as Tier 5 scaling now comes from somewhere else too so huuh... nvm.
TLDR
- Heat Manipulation's 3500 °C note gets completely removed.
Adam and Charlie become from Low 5-B, possibly 5-B to just Low 7-C
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