An Attempt to bring back a Verse (Terrible Mouse)

[Antvasima]

I agree, and I knew that you would agree as well. But I am saying that your rules are very broad, and unnecessarily exclude things they should not (such as, for example, Saw and Inglorious Basterds). I don't want the rule's phrasing being such that these things would fall against it, is my point.

So how should we apply minor tweaking to my suggested wordings to properly define the difference without misunderstandings?

 

[Antvasima]

What about Marvel Ruins?

Pointlessly dystopian, morbid, and distasteful, but seems to go under level 3.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

So how should we apply minor tweaking to my suggested wordings to properly define the difference without misunderstandings?

I don't think they should mention gore. I don't think gore is the point. Unfettered, supportive sadism directed at innocents is, I feel-- animals and children especially.

I will bring up a point that is not quite like Terrible Mouse, but should be mentioned (and I am surprised it has not been yet). Would we consider the video game Hatred to fall against these policies? It might be hard to justify the notion that it is supportive of the protagonist/antagonist, but it is more or less made solely to portray mass murder, afaik. The entire game features the player character slaughtering innocent civilians as they attempt to flee.

 

[FinePoint]

I will bring up a point that is not quite like Terrible Mouse, but should be mentioned (and I am surprised it has not been yet). Would we consider the video game Hatred to fall against these policies? It might be hard to justify the notion that it is supportive of the protagonist/antagonist, but it is more or less made solely to portray mass murder, afaik. The entire game features the player character slaughtering innocent civilians as they attempt to flee.

It sounds like at least from Fandom's end that they care a whole lot less if it's not children or children-related material. (They'd probably care about animals too.)

Still, I would argue that does violate the spirit of the guideline in that the actual focus is to feature that shocking material, as opposed to say, GTA, where that is technically possible but clearly not the focus.

 

[FinePoint]

Thank you for helping out. I made some adjustments for clarifying purposes.

Level 4: Extreme - Verses that place a central focus on either high sexual content or amoral disturbing gore. Such verses are pornographic and/or gleefully malevolent in nature and as such strictly unsuitable for this wiki. A verse that falls under this rating would either have the majority of its content be sexual or excessively shocking for the sake of itself, such as by endorsing the detailed murder or torture of children.

Examples: Many hentai series, Terrible Mouse

Oh, and I agree with Bambu we probably should avoid using the word gore specifically like that, since the real problem seems to be just who it's directed towards and the surrounding context from Fandom's perspective. Perhaps it should more-so mention being made for sadistic purposes.

Other than that I think your revision is fine.

 

[AppleMaker]

Also we probably should take down Yandere Simulator pages for the same reasons, on top of that - it's creator was outed as a predator

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Also we probably should take down Yandere Simulator pages for the same reasons, on top of that - it's creator was outed as a predator

Not that I really have a dog in this race or however the saying goes, but we typically tend to separate the product from the producer with situations like that.

 

[FinePoint]

Also we probably should take down Yandere Simulator pages for the same reasons, on top of that - it's creator was outed as a predator

I would actually agree given these standards, though not for the latter reason.

The entire game centers around committing sadistic violence on school children.

Given its popularity that would work nice as an example.

Though, I don't remember how actually gory it is. It may not be enough to qualify from that perspective, since Fandom also mentioned it being 'detailed'.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I would actually agree given these standards, though not for the latter reason.

The entire game centers around committing sadistic violence on school children.

Given its popularity that would work nice as an example.

Though, I don't remember how actually gory it is. It may not be enough to qualify from that perspective, since Fandom also mentioned it being 'detailed'.

It also has sexual content.

From what I know, one of the game's currencies is taking secret photos of underage schoolgirls' underwear.

 

[FinePoint]

It also has sexual content.

From what I know, one of the game's currencies is taking secret photos of underage schoolgirls' underwear.

From what I recall even years ago early in development, this is correct, and probably another good reason it falls into level 4.

 

[FinePoint]

Alright, looking at the wiki ironically on Fandom, I can see the game also encourages you to bully school children until they commit suicide, torture them in an iron maiden, and drown them in a toilet. Alongside all the other murder and creepy stuff, I would find it hard to believe it doesn't violate Fandom's guidelines.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Alright, looking at the wiki ironically on Fandom, I can see the game also encourages you to bully school children until they commit suicide, torture them in an iron maiden, and drown them in a toilet. Alongside all the other murder and creepy stuff, I would find it hard to believe it doesn't violate Fandom's guidelines.

We're changing the rules to match the Fandom's rules, right? But even so, the Fandom allows things like Yandere Simulator.

And honestly, I highly doubt that "they just don't know the game exists in the Fandom," considering that verse is huge, everyone knows about it.

 

[FinePoint]

We're changing the rules to match the Fandom's rules, right? But even so, the Fandom allows things like Yandere Simulator.

And honestly, I highly doubt that "they just don't know the game exists in the Fandom," considering that verse is huge, everyone knows about it.

Well either they're hypocrites based on popularity, they do actually only care if the gore itself is extreme, or they never looked into it that much.

Only one of these would make me feel comfortable featuring it here.

Maybe it's worth asking about specifically.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

If all of the content for YanSim is described accurately here (I see no reason for Fine to lie, nobody has suggested it isn't correct) then yes, that probably would also fall against these policies. Protagonist committing tons of sadistic, torturous acts against other children for the sake of it. I don't actually, personally, find YanSim to be horrifically out of line, but I can't imagine all of the above flying with Fandom while Terrible Mouse doesn't fly.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't think they should mention gore. I don't think gore is the point. Unfettered, supportive sadism directed at innocents is, I feel-- animals and children especially.

Yes. That seems reasonable.

I will bring up a point that is not quite like Terrible Mouse, but should be mentioned (and I am surprised it has not been yet). Would we consider the video game Hatred to fall against these policies? It might be hard to justify the notion that it is supportive of the protagonist/antagonist, but it is more or less made solely to portray mass murder, afaik. The entire game features the player character slaughtering innocent civilians as they attempt to flee.

That seems to fall under level 4, yes.

 

[Homie890]

So.
Let me see if i got this right.
The verse got deleted because Ant decided to virtrue signal?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Inb4 because of us, a bunch of wikis are deleted

 

[Antvasima]

I would actually agree given these standards, though not for the latter reason.

The entire game centers around committing sadistic violence on school children.

Given its popularity that would work nice as an example.

Though, I don't remember how actually gory it is. It may not be enough to qualify from that perspective, since Fandom also mentioned it being 'detailed'.

It also has sexual content.

From what I know, one of the game's currencies is taking secret photos of underage schoolgirls' underwear.

From what I recall even years ago early in development, this is correct, and probably another good reason it falls into level 4.

Alright, looking at the wiki ironically on Fandom, I can see the game also encourages you to bully school children until they commit suicide, torture them in an iron maiden, and drown them in a toilet. Alongside all the other murder and creepy stuff, I would find it hard to believe it doesn't violate Fandom's guidelines.

Yes. Agreed. It should fall under level 4.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

So.
Let me see if i got this right.
The verse got deleted because Ant decided to virtrue signal?

If you are not willing to read the thread in good faith, avoid commenting.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Inb4 because of us, a bunch of wikis are deleted

Honestly, I doubt the Fandom will delete the YandereSim or Terrible Mouse Wiki. I think they will just continue to exist.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Honestly, I doubt the Fandom will delete the YandereSim or Terrible Mouse Wiki. I think they will just continue to exist.

Notice the strikethrough.

 

[Antvasima]

So.
Let me see if i got this right.
The verse got deleted because Ant decided to virtrue signal?

Virtue signal means that somebody doesn't truly believe in what they are doing for any ethical reasons, and just wants applause, whereas I genuinely cannot see this as being less amoral and disgusting than lolicon ra pe hentai, and tend to get lots of negative attention from my views about this.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Virtue signal means that somebody doesn't truly believe in what they are doing for any ethical reasons, whereas I genuinely cannot see this as being less amoral and disgusting than lolicon ra pe hentai.

I thought it was against the rules of our site to bypass the filter by splitting words up like that?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, that is mainly for slurs and insults, and I thought that it was important to make it clear what I was referring to in this case.

 

[Antvasima]

@Mr. Bambu @FinePoint

Are either of you willing to slightly modify my draft texts based on what we agreed above please?

 

[Homie890]

Virtue signal means that somebody doesn't truly believe in what they are doing for any ethical reasons, and just wants applause, whereas I genuinely cannot see this as being less amoral and disgusting than lolicon ra pe hentai, and tend to get lots of negative attention from my views about this.

It's... fictional.
The characters aren't real.

 

[Thunderman101]

It's... fictional.
The characters aren't real.

All of us are fictional

 

[Antvasima]

It's... fictional.
The characters aren't real.

All types of information affects the mindsets of people, and it is a scientific (and likely spiritual) fact that extreme immersion in and indoctrination by ideologically thoroughly malevolent media (any type of media) significantly erodes human ethics, compassion, empathy, and conscience. I have gone into that considerably more indepth via my wiki user page.

 

[Agnaa]

I would actually agree given these standards, though not for the latter reason.

The entire game centers around committing sadistic violence on school children.

Given its popularity that would work nice as an example.

Though, I don't remember how actually gory it is. It may not be enough to qualify from that perspective, since Fandom also mentioned it being 'detailed'.

It's not really gory. The worst stuff is something like this. You can look around to see if you can find something worse.

Alright, looking at the wiki ironically on Fandom, I can see the game also encourages you to bully school children until they commit suicide, torture them in an iron maiden, and drown them in a toilet. Alongside all the other murder and creepy stuff, I would find it hard to believe it doesn't violate Fandom's guidelines.

You can also win Yandere Simulator by just befriending the target. The **** do you mean "encourages you to bully school children"!?!?!?!? That's just an option that they programmed in!!!

If this is how y'all interpret the standards, they will result in the deletion of a lot of YA/shounen stuff, as well as a lot of edgy stuff outside of that. Assuming you do take Sannse's answer that "detailed torture and murder of children crosses it", and take that to mean "any instance of anything moderately gory against someone under the age of 18 results in deletion".

Either that, or (perhaps even worse), they will only be applied when there isn't a knowledgeable staff member around to say "hey there's actually more to it and there's artistic merit", while verses that are just as extreme, but lack staff favour, get deleted. Or perhaps, slightly inverted; they'd only get deleted if a certain staff member is steadfastly convinced that they're demented.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Even if Yandere Simulator exclusively forced you to make bad choices, there should not be an issue. The game is literally called Yandere simulator. The title itself acknowledges the type of character you play. It isn't promoting or inciting violence to the audience. It should not come as a surprise that the mentally deranged character you play as does evil things. This would be like getting upset at Dead by Daylight because the point of the game as the killer is (guess what) killing players.

There is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

You can look around to see if you can find something worse.

this?

 

[Agnaa]

this?

That's literally just blood spraying everywhere while her intact body ragdolls around.

There's ******* student films with zero budget that have more extreme gore.

If this is unacceptably extreme gore, then 65% of anime/manga that take place in a high school will have to be deleted.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Wait how did we circle towards Yandere Simulator, a game that videos of people like Markiplier play it get 20 million views being under category 4?
Obviously popularity alone does not denote what is or isn't too gorey, but I think if it was as horrid as people claim it is then a safe-ish YouTuber like Markplier back in the 2010s would not be making a whole series about it.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Even if Yandere Simulator exclusively forced you to make bad choices, there should not be an issue. The game is literally called Yandere simulator. The title itself acknowledges the type of character you play. It isn't promoting or inciting violence to the audience. It should not come as a surprise that the mentally deranged character you play as does evil things. This would be like getting upset at Dead by Daylight because the point of the game as the killer is (guess what) killing players.

There is nothing wrong with that.

But just because the game's objective is to be a "yandere simulator," does that automatically make it valid?

If Yandere Simulator were exactly as you described, but instead of the characters being teenagers, they were children, maybe even 13 years old.

Would you still find the game okay? The game would be exactly the same, only the characters would be a few years younger.

I think it would be better to focus on the age group the gore is aimed at rather than "the game has this objective."

 

[Agnaa]

Would you still find the game okay? The game would be exactly the same, only the characters would be a few years younger.

I think it would be better to focus on the age group the gore is aimed at rather than "the game has this objective."

South Park's composed primarily of elementary schoolers. A common joke, happening almost every episode, for many seasons, was one of them being killed, often in a gory way.

Should it be deleted?

 

[Randomuser3412]

Wait how did we circle towards Yandere Simulator

Should have been a staff thread.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

South Park's composed primarily of elementary schoolers. A common joke, happening almost every episode, for many seasons, was one of them being killed, often in a gory way.

Should it be deleted?

I didn't, but the discussion involves the rejection of a verse that contains violent content against children (terrible mouse) and changing the rules of level 4 to include violent content in addition to sexual content (since the page currently only talks exclusively about sexual content and not violent content).

The question I asked was really to find out what type of violent content against children is not allowed in level 4.

 

[LaserPrecision]

But just because the game's objective is to be a "yandere simulator," does that automatically make it valid?

If Yandere Simulator were exactly as you described, but instead of the characters being teenagers, they were children, maybe even 13 years old.

Would you still find the game okay? The game would be exactly the same, only the characters would be a few years younger.

I think it would be better to focus on the age group the gore is aimed at rather than "the game has this objective."

No. Why would I care if it were kids being murdered by a crazy person more than I would teenagers or any other innocent person? A psychopath could throw a baby in a blender and I would not care. It's a videogame

 

[Agnaa]

Really I think the issue here comes from the vagueness of the reply

I have received a reply from Sannse of the Fandom staff.

"Hello Antvasima

This is a tricky line. We allow a lot if the gore is fictional. For example, we have a Saw Wiki and a Final Destination Wiki, both of which are very gory. However, we have previously closed a couple of Japanese Manga wikis that were very violent. The difference was largely that the extreme gore and violence was also sexual. I also recently deleted a story that was very gory and violent and used a children's character as the victim (MLP). Real gore is definitely not allowed.

The content rating scale really only covers sexual content. But there is a line with gore, and I would say detailed torture and murder of children crosses it. Especially if it has any sexual elements. Basically, if it's gory and fictional it's okay, until it becomes torture po rn or shock content.

I can't speak to the specific case, as I don't know the content. But if it gets explicit with violence against children, it probably crosses the line.

I hope that helps
Regards,

-- Sannse"

There's a lot of different standards gestured at here:

1. Gore and violence also being sexual.
2. Very gory and violent, with a children's character as the victim.
3. Detailed torture and murder of children.
4. Torture **** or shock content.
5. Gets explicit with violence against children.

These standards very significantly, from ones that would delete zero relevant verses, including Terrible Mouse, to ones that would delete 70% of the wiki.

So we can either:

1. Arbitrarily pick one of these standards for our convenience.
2. When possible, enforce our standards based on whether Fandom has seemed to permit a wiki to stay open for it.
3. Ask Sannse for some clarification on which of those is intended, which might require a fair bit of back and forth.

Really, I'm leaning towards the second one. Terrible Mouse seems to not be dedicated shock content, and it has a wiki. If that gets deleted, we'll know that Fandom actually does consider it something that infringes.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I second Agnaa, most of the above possible standards nuke a vast majority of verses on the site.