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Jujutsu Kaisen Discussion Page #1
- Thread starter PowerToScale
- Start date
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he is listed as unknown for some reason
his power is pretty much known, pre awakening he was the peak of grade one and approaching special grade alongside geto and they were equals
and when gojo awakened he became "the strongest" leaving geto in the dust
anyway i don't see choso beating geto at all
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I don't know we don't just go with the solid assumption that Gojo's physicals are comparable to our baseline for Grade 1s cause he and Geto were generally treated as top of the Jujutsu world at that point. We even have that Inverse Guy who went into hiding because he was weaker than child Gojo for a reasonable baseline for his physicals.
For Blue, we calced maximum output so should have a scale for that or we could just downscale from red since it's two times blue.
Anonymous_Learner
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True. Gojo should be Grade 1 level physically (we even gave Geto it) and downscale red by 2x like you said, it was something I planned on making a CRT about but there's already a lot made and life got the better of me
MinatoSparkle
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I wasn't rlly commenting on that debate. I agree with you on that much.
It's not about lying. It's not like he just looked at his CE on its own and decided he's at 10%, he didn't notice anything wrong but then when he used Dismantles he saw the output of his slashes being weak, which made him realize his CE output is massively dropped, and later specifies his CT output as extremely low when clashing physically with Yuji and Maki, almost as if his slashes are the only thing nerfed that much.
The point is that Megumi's dropping his entire CE output, but he locks tf in and mega nerfs him when Sukuna uses slashes. You even agreed that his CT output is nerfed more than his physical output, so I don't see why it's such a strange concept for Sukuna to be referring to his slashes when saying his output's at 10% after realizing he's nerfed when he uses slashes? He doesn't say it directly but he does imply it anyways.
ムラはあるが呪力出力は酷いと一割以下までいくな
肉体の動きの方はそこまでではないか…………
There’s inconsistency, but when his cursed energy output is really bad, it drops to below ten percent.
His physical movements, though, don’t seem to fall off that much…
1. Maki was surprised by Sukuna's sudden speed boost from pausing RCT (like Sukuna when Gojo first restored his burnt out CT and "blitzed" him with Blue despite Blue Gojo not actually being a blitz tier above Sukuna)And huhhh?? How is it questionable, a way weaker Sukuna than 16F when actually trying proves this is consistent by perception blitzing Shinjuku Awakened Maki (at least comparable, but honestly faster than Ryu lmao).
2. Maki was in a bad position to react, practically being off the floor
3. Sukuna probably used the blocks as cover
4. There's really no proof this is a perception blitz, Maki can just be surprised cause of Sukuna's speed increase
5. When Maki adjusts to his heightened speed, she can react to him even in cqc against the most excited and locked in Sukuna. Surely you don't think Sukuna started moving slower when he's so locked in he uses Black Flash
These are all after Chapter 250, which is the point when he was still pretty close to 16F Sukuna. He literally says that Cleave would be fatal at that point, yet even when Cleaving Yuta right in the head after his output has been dropped further, Yuta survives, as you showed.
When taking multiple Dismantles, and being less durable than Ryu, they take more damage than Ryu. That's fine.But notice how the dismantles still damage them alot, even more than it did Ryu, with it even being fatal for Yuji, it's like Ryu doesn't actually scales to dismantles consistently right
These are nice, but quite unquantifiable. It would be a big deal for almost any other sorcerer, but Sukuna's CE efficiency is top 2 in the verse, the amount of output he loses from using DE/RCT can't be proven. And in terms of CE reserves, it really shouldn't be too much. He has a comparable amount of CE in Chapter 250 and Chapter 260, despite using RCT a bunch, and using DE + Fuga once.
This is a decent nerf sure, although again hard to quantify
Same problems as before
This damage is irrelevant since, as you said, he healed it all when he transformed. It's not like he wasted CE cause of the damage either since he wasn't really able to use RCT atp. Post-Incarnation Sukuna pretty much has the same reserves/output as he does prior to receiving Purple.
Pretty much irrelevant levels of damage to Sukuna.
This is notable I agree
Idk what the point of listing all the damage Sukuna got during Shinjuku was, when my main comparison is between 16F Sukuna and Ch 250 Sukuna, but alright. 20F Sukuna demolishes anyone not named Gojo, that's fine, I never disagreed with that. But Sukuna having incredible endurance doesn't make the gap larger than it actually is (which is large, but not close to 10x). Also, pretty important to note that Sukuna's not the only one weakening. Yuji for the last 10ish chapters of the Shinjuku battle stopped using RCT cause of his CE being low. If you plopped a fresh EoS Yuji or Yuta (heck, probably even MBA Kashimo) against any version of Sukuna post-Chapter 251, other than when he had DE, and they had killing intent, they would slap him.
Which I already addressed. It's also worth noting that her skin might've been weakened already by the point blank Dismantles/Cleaves Sukuna had hit her with earlier. It's not like the Dismantles were the only damage she took either, that second Black Flash must've stung a lot.
I don't think she was helping her stand, they're just close so Maki can be protected by Miwa's SD.
Everyone else is out for the rest of the fight, despite them not all taking that much damage, which is weird. I would suggest Todo may have swapped them too far, but considering there was at least several minutes, I would think there'd be enough time. Maybe they were planning to hop in again if Yuji failed, or it's a narrative thing. Even if Maki was indeed too weak to fight, idt that's really a problem when injuries stack over time and Maki had taken 4 heavy attacks atp.It's why, again, shes out for the entire fight after this. Todo shows up to fight but not her.
Still haven't proven that
Cool? I was talking about how Ryu would've died from a barrage of Dismantles at the same level as the one Sukuna used on him though. If you mean Yuji dying without RCT is a Ryu downscale, not really cause Ryu's more durable and we don't really know how Yuta fight Sukuna's point blank Dismantle compares to 16F's, unless you think he was going all out in that one Dismantle against Base Yuta at the start.
That's fine, either way none of this changes his statement to himself that Dismantle is insufficient against Ryu.
Not really? They're in a pretty comparable tier physically
That's great, but not sure that's too relevant for his durability.
Helped sure, but definitely not enough on its own, and Gojo was also weakened.
I agree, but it still shows that Black Flash has one shot capability
Yuji's main thing is toughness
This feat actually helps my point
That arm is in NASTY condition, Mahito not reacting much cause of him being Mahito doesn't change that the Black Flash's AP far surpassed his durability.16F's output is significantly above post-Ch 250 Sukuna's output.
They CLASH many times, proving that their STRENGTH is close, not that Sukuna's strength scales to Gojo's durability. Physicals being on par with, or superior to CT output (if physicals~Cleave>>Dismantle) makes no sense, and the narrator says as much.
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Damn...how the hell did this make me feel a bit bad for Naoya...
EldemadeDityjon
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Oh brother no Maki wank please.
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Bro hates Maki and Yuta more than anything
EldemadeDityjon
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It doesn't matter
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Lmfao, what kind of maki glaze is that.
Maki wasnt surprised, she was blitzed from 10+ meters buddy. If she was surprised, she would try to block, but it never happened and she was just badly blitzed.
Bad position doesnt mean anything, she can jump from the air and have prediction.
He doesnt, ur assumption is baseless.
It is. Maki couldnt react/tried to block/deflect an attack and was grabbed in the face out of the building. Not a single movement from her was done to try to evade.
And funny enough how u saying that she "reacted", when at the first scan Sukuna just hit the SSK and grabbed it and had yap session about sorcery and etc + swung his arm and on the second scan she "blocked" it, because her hand was already in this position as u see in the first scan. And yeah, he would be slower, since HE LITERALLY HAVE YAP SESSION and swunging his arm, CONTINUINING his yap session and only then hitting her.
Maki glazers the only one, who say that clear blitz is just "being surprised" lmao.
Rodriiogo
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Let's read the entire thing together,
Sukuna after using the dismantles realises that megumi is suppressing his cursed energy output and that it can get as low as 10%, the part where he talks about his physical movements being unhindered is about his control over the body, he's saying that despite Megumi being able to reject him and lower his output, he can't take control over the body's flesh/movements like Yuji did for example. This is him admitting that his CE Output can go as far as making him 1/10 weaker than he normally is, weakening his cursed energy output entirely, even if you wanna say it's "only when he uses dismantles" is still significant cause his durability would also decrease as durability in JJK relies on cursed energy output. We see that even when using the slashes, a punch from CG Rage Amped Yuji does basically nothing to him other than push him back, with Sukuna even noting his cursed energy is falling right there. The Sukuna that Yuji punched here, no matter how you wanna put it was around 1/10 less durable than normally, and he ate that punch. But we will continue, as right after he notes that his cursed energy can go as low as 10% he says word by word: "Well, this amount of cursed energy should be more than enough to comfortably slaughter the brat." He is saying this when in reference to his 10% amount of cursed energy, Sukuna is extremely confident that even with getting nerfed as low as 10% of his amount of output, he can still slaughter Yuji comfortably. Now as you said he does note that about his technique, however you should look at the entire context, Sukuna did not use his technique once ever since Maki showed up until that point. Sukuna got to that conclusion from fighting Maki and Yuji physically, his technique output also gets nerfed yes but so does his entire output gets massively nerfed even further even if he's going for a simple punch on them., it's why Maki is also able to withstand that punch from Sukuna despite being comparable to the Yuji who's punch barely did damage to 10% of Sukuna as he was using dismantles.
So yes, Sukuna weakened physically by 1/10 is indeed still > Awakened Maki and Rage Amped CG Yuji. He would nearly clear the verse like this in 1v1s lol.
And again, let's think for a bit:
- You think Ryu scales to dismantles despite him being one shotted by Cleaves;
- As I already proved, Sukuna scales to his own cleaves therefore making Sukuna's physicals a one shot level above Ryu;
- CG Yuji, even when rage amped, is less durable and weaker than Ryu;
- Sukuna is taking damage from Yuji there and both him and Maki actually take attacks and clash with him physically;
- This would not make sense if Sukuna's physicals werent that massively nerfed as well cause it'd mean that despite Yuji still being harmed by dismantles... he scales to something a one shot tier above dismantles? How does that make sense?
What is this Maki glaze bro what (omg I sound like Elde)
- After her sumo training, Maki, with her eyes is able to literally see the differences in temperature and density of air which allows her to predict how her opponent will move before they even move. Sukuna had to blitz her precognition as well even as Maki was staring directly at him, this just makes it worse.
- Again, after her sumo training, Maki is able to literally react while FALLING off a building mid-air. She wouldn't be at a disadvantage here.
- No? The view that we are seeing there in the images IS MAKI's VIEW. She was seeing Sukuna very visibly, it's why the panel in the bottom gets cut, it's referencing how Sukuna just covered one of her eyes by blitzing her.
- Read above.
- That is not keeping up lol, look at the scene, Sukuna falls meters away from Maki, Maki tries to go for a swing and Sukuna punches her sword away, then Maki notes that he stopped using his RCT to heal and keep his heart beating, tries to for a swing which Sukuna literally grabs and immediatly black flashes her. She only had time to put her hand in her torso because it was already there before so the black flash's damage wasn't as bad. She was still getting completely outpaced and not keeping up at all here.
Sukuna even pre chapter 250 was already way below 16F Sukuna otherwise Yuji, Yuta, Maki, everyone would have died immediatly cause they are 10x below a 16F Sukuna as I already proved.
Them taking damage still means they are relative bro what, you are acting like the gap in damage is the gap of a one shot level. I wanna genuinely ask if you think Dismantles would actually do 0 damage to Gojo and Sukuna considering they both scale to Gojo taking MULTIPLE CLEAVES FROM MALEVOLENT SHRINE. Considering the idea of Ryu showing that the gap between dismantle and cleave is a literal one tap would mean that dismantles would bounce off gojo and sukuna... do you genuinely wanna push this?
CE reserves and efficency are a non factor when it comes to the drop of CE output via injury/weakening the output itself, the reserves or efficency will never restore the output lost, Gojo quite literally notes his output is on the decline despite his basically "endless" reserve due to six eyes making the waste of output insignificant and Sukuna's was evidently even lower despite having even better efficency and reserves quantity than Gojo.
Except you can easily get a decent qualification on how weak Sukuna was.
For the entire Gojo fight, let's find the bare minimum. As I already proved, 10% of 15F Sukuna is already able to match Awakened Maki and CG Rage Amped Yuji. Kashimo should be comparable to them and he is able to match the Sukuna post the Gojo fight, we know the gap between 5F and 15F Sukuna is over 10x, using the same, the gap between 15F and 20F should be 5x bare minimum (this is once again a low ball as we know), this means that 15F Sukuna would be around 20% of Shinjuku Sukuna's power, and since Kashimo would only be able to at least take stuff from around 10% of 15F Sukuna, he'd be fighting 2% SUKUNA (in terms of output) and him being dominated wouldn't change his output that much.
But you can also just get some baselines from a fight where we DO have a numerical value on how weak someone can get with X damage:
Mahito by getting hit from Resonance, beaten up by Yuji, getting his clone killed and getting black flash'd by a Weaker Yuji once already says he's only at around 40%. Even low balling and saying those 4 stuff each took the same fraction of Mahito.
Doing some quick calculation (1-(1/?))^4 = 0.40, we find out that "?" is 4.88, so each of those 4 things, low balled took around 1/4.88 of Mahito's power each time (As in, 100 - 100*(1/4.88) = 79.50819672 | 79.50819672 - 79.50819672*(1/4.88) = 63.21553346 | In four it'd reach the 40%). This is low balled because with black flash for example should take way more than just getting his clone killed lol, and remember that Sukuna took 8 BLACK FLASHES.
So yes you can very much assume a decently accurate quantifier for them and let me tell you unless you are one of the "Kashimo top 3" agenda pushers and think he was fighting like 40% Sukuna or some insane thing like that or think TF Sukuna is the buff of a life time then everyone in Shinjuku was still below a Sukuna on like 0.1% lmao. They'd all lose and they are all below 10% of 16F Sukuna still.
If you still don't get how that correlates let me put it simply.
Let's say 15F Sukuna is "10" here and that Sukuna actually was EQUAL TO 15F Sukuna even as far as chapter 257. (We both disagree with this and say hes even weaker but look at this)
The 8 black flashes from Yuji would already take that "10" to around 1.60. Notice how it's almost a 10x gap... and even then Sukuna was S T I L L S T R O N G E R, stronger than an AWAKENED YUJI, who at that point is beyond Ryu. Tell me how does it make sense for Ryu to scale to 15F Sukuna, go ahead.
Again, no? Output changes after being damaged regardless if you keep your CE reserves intact which is what he kept. Sukuna did not increase in output that much .
Dawg what? A Fresh Awakened Maki fights Sukuna in chapters 252 and 253 and got absolutely dogwalked, Sukuna also sent Maki out of the fight in chapter 256. NO ONE is beating that Sukuna other than Gojo.
That scan just makes it worse cause if you look right after, Maki shows up with basically no extreme injury in her chest in the same chapter, even after getting cleaved right there. So by your logic she'd be stronger than Ryu (Which I agree but it doenst help your point if you didn't understand)
Everyone else is out for the rest of the fight because they were on a bad state. Higuruma was deadly injured since the beginning of the fight, Yuta was cut in half and still trying to transfer himself to Gojo's body, Kusakabe had a cross in his chest, Miguel was helping out Larue who got black flashed by Sukuna, Choso DIES in the same scene, Ino says he was going because that was all he could do (he was using Nanami's cleave and lost it as he throws it at sukuna to distract him so Yuji could caught him with a offguard black flash). Who else did you want to jump in other than Todo? Miwa? Angel? Shoko just learns to fight out of nowhere? Maki was indeed taken out by those dismantles doing massive damage. Remember that Maki even with her injuries in the same chapter still shows superiority to unawakened Yuji who as you already conceded is relative to Ryu so.
Even if weaker, CG Yuta was already comparable to Ryu in durability. Do you think he did and took all this while being below that much below Ryu in durability:
Ryu literally takes his own attack and admits it hurts him.
It's made very clear that, yea yuta is weaker but they are comparable, there is barely any difference so if ryu by ur logic scales, so does even CG Yuta via being comparable and Shinjuku Sukuna even harder.
Todo was struggling while jumping a Mahito at 40% alongside a Yuji (who was also weakened but the point here is Todo) and even after Mahito divided his power further, they were still struggling with that divided power and it was actually holding them off:
I think you forgot that any type of injury affects the cursed energy output of a sorcerer drastically, it's why Naobito was so weakened after losing an arm, any type of injury is extremely important for a sorcerer.
What do you mean definitely not enough? Red is 2x above Sukuna and Gojo, Sukuna basically got combo'd by 2x red into a 2.5x punch, of course he passed out lol.
Its significantly above every version of Sukuna post Gojo bro lol.
Maybe the fact that they are comparable still exists? Also Mahoraga fight has mahoraga literally swing away a dismantle and get one shotted by cleave right after as well. You didn't address the fact that Gojo takes cleaves from MALEVOLENT SHRINE, do you wanna say that was plot armor or smth?
Anonymous_Learner
He/Him- 6,782
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Man i hate maki glazers.
"she didn't get blitz, she was surprised"
looks inside
clearest example of getting blitzed in all of his time
"she didn't get blitz, she was surprised"
looks inside
clearest example of getting blitzed in all of his time
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to be fair, gojo explicitly would have died to MS if he didn't act quickly
taking a few amped cleaves is impressive asf, anyone else not hakari or mahoraga would probably have died, but gojo didn't "tank" it per se
Rodriiogo
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That's because he hadn't used simple domain so MS would keep going until he dies, once he does start using SD we see that multiple hits from cleaves do indeed not kill him even when he's not using RCT, he doesnt TANK them cause yea it cuts him and is still superior to Sukuna's own physicals, but he does withstanding them and is still able to fight Sukuna with those injuries so he does scale relative to cleaves:
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they are still arguing that he one shots gojo and sukuna
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you tell em
Rodriiogo
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And people are STILL mostly disagreeing btw (that they are relative all the time).
Anonymous_Learner
He/Him- 6,782
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"Gojo and Sukuna are forever trapped in 7-c ranges because I don't like them higher, regardless of dabura scaling to them" -Staff fr
Rodriiogo
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Applying his CT to himself = Higher speed = Higher kinetic energy and output = Stronk
(He never physically grows stronger at all)
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Reversal and domain
Rodriiogo
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That's just his light-speed acceleration kick which has nothing to do with his regular stats. No one scales to light-speed kick but they do scale to dabura's raw stats, especially his durability as his durability never increases, it's why his leg gets vaporized, while he does grow stronger with acceleration via well kinetic energy, since his durability doesn't grow, he still can't handle the acceleration of light.
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Nothing suggest Dabura didn't know Domain before. Reversal is extension of RCT and we never actually saw what his CTR does.
We never saw what his domain does either now I think about it. Thank you Gege, you are one of the writers of all time !
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