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Champion of Midgard: The Thor Odinson MegaCRT

Armorchompy said:
Yeah whatever tier it is it would be... whatever replaces 3-C.

I'll have to look through the feats list before agreeing to tier 1 being consistent, but there is still a decent amount of instances of him being hurt by High 3-A people, whereas most of the Low 1-A stuff seems to come from kind of internal logic? Like they're repeated instances but it's the same argument of "Gods are Low 1-A" rather than multiple unrelated feats or different avenues of scaling. So I'm not sure the numbers are showing the whole picture.

By "higher power" I don't necessarily mean something too complicated, I just feel like any kind of mechanism that makes it so he isn't at that tier all the time (besides holding back because then he could just stop doing that and win instantly) makes a high tier much more consistent. And I feel like you do have a decent amount of evidence that Thor actively makes himself stronger by drawing from his willpower & such, which could be that.
Click to expand...
Good thoughts. I'm interested to hear what you think after going through the Tier 1 stuff.

For now (as in until the Heralds get reworked) I can edit the proposal to include a placeholder High 3-A for his lower showings
 
If anyone wants to help construct Thor's potential lower tier, I'm going to be gathering available feats for the "High 3-As" that Worthy Thor would scale to when he's not at max power (as in he sometimes struggles with these, sometimes stomps them). So far I've got:
  • Gladiator
  • Hyperion
  • Silver Surfer
  • Stardust
  • Firelord
  • Beta Ray Bill
  • Starbrand
I strongly suspect that some of these will end up being tier 1 independently and make the High 3-A less of an issue, especially in the case of SS. I'll see what I can come up with
 
NaturalDestroyer said:
If anyone wants to help construct Thor's potential lower tier, I'm going to be gathering available feats for the "High 3-As" that Worthy Thor would scale to when he's not at max power (as in he sometimes struggles with these, sometimes stomps them). So far I've got:
  • Gladiator
  • Hyperion
  • Silver Surfer
  • Stardust
  • Firelord
  • Beta Ray Bill
  • Starbrand
I strongly suspect that some of these will end up being tier 1 independently and make the High 3-A less of an issue, especially in the case of SS. I'll see what I can come up with
Click to expand...
Now that I see it, Starbrand has a huge problem, it doesn't really make sense for him to be H3-A with that justification and worse for some reason his AP section was not changed so he still scales to Low complex multiversal while his tier section makes him H3-A.
 
Suigetsuhyugs said:
Now that I see it, Starbrand has a huge problem, it doesn't really make sense for him to be H3-A with that justification and worse for some reason his AP section was not changed so he still scales to Low complex multiversal while his tier section makes him H3-A.
Click to expand...
We've sure got our work cut out for us. I'll leave other Herald scaling for a future thread since it'll need its own dedicated project to do properly (and doesn't dramatically affect this proposal since we can just keep the High 3-A as a placeholder tier for now).

Apart from "(placeholder), Low 1-A to 1-A at peak" for base Thor, what does everyone think about the rest of the proposal?
 
I haven't been free to check this thread recently (one of the wilder proposals was more proactively getting bumped and IRL stuff mostly limits my focus to be one thread at a time), but I want to clarify I have only inputted on the scaling and not the entire proposal, which I simply haven't had the time to check in its entirety (it's A LOT)

Also I will note that the google docs link Viv provided is an important resource and context to give to staff evaluators in general, it's far better formatted (current one linked is borderline unusable) and showcases peak feats n stuff better.

So I think Viv should probably link it while clarifying the privacy concerns related to it
 
Sweet. I just added the link to the doc in the proposal and updated it to include a placeholder High 3-A key in base to account for his lower showings
 
NaturalDestroyer said:
Thor variability (all versions): User blog:NaturalDestroyer/Thor Variability and Stats

  • TLDR: Thor holds back immensely in the vast majority of his fights, and limits himself both subconsciously and consciously unless fighting against beings he perceives as able to handle his true godly power. He also never uses his full power when civilians are in the area. No character should scale to him unless it's abundantly clear that Thor is actually going all-out in their fight.
Click to expand...
Why don't we use these three scans for all gods? The belief = variable power is already something we accept and has become common in the verse. So I'm curious why we don't use it for all gods instead of just the egyptian ones.
 
My guess is because there are some conflicting statements for the Norse gods that would prevent it from universally applying. For example, in McKay's Avengers run, Thor stated that he was a god that had never required worship or belief, and it was an important element of how he was able to defeat Alabaster of the Ashen Combine, who was reliant on her worshippers for her power.
 
NaturalDestroyer said:
My guess is because there are some conflicting statements for the Norse gods that would prevent it from universally applying.
Click to expand...
That sounds about right.

NaturalDestroyer said:
For example, in McKay's Avengers run, Thor stated that he was a god that had never required worship or belief, and it was an important element of how he was able to defeat Alabaster of the Ashen Combine, who was reliant on her worshippers for her power.
Click to expand...
I'll need a bit more context than that because Thor saying that he never required worship could be just him being humble, like: "I don't need to be worshipped because I'll help no matter what" type of situation.
 
NaturalDestroyer said:
My guess is because there are some conflicting statements for the Norse gods that would prevent it from universally applying. For example, in McKay's Avengers run, Thor stated that he was a god that had never required worship or belief, and it was an important element of how he was able to defeat Alabaster of the Ashen Combine, who was reliant on her worshippers for her power.
Click to expand...
I interpreted it another way, I saw it as Alabaster's power being completely relient on workship while Thor is powerful even without workship, I mean isn't it a big part of Thor and other God's origin that they are shaped from the belief of mankind?
 
Suigetsuhyugs said:
I interpreted it another way, I saw it as Alabaster's power being completely relient on workship while Thor is powerful even without workship, I mean isn't it a big part of Thor and other God's origin that they are shaped from the belief of mankind?
Click to expand...
in Immortal Thor it's pretty evident
 
Suigetsuhyugs said:
I interpreted it another way, I saw it as Alabaster's power being completely relient on workship while Thor is powerful even without workship, I mean isn't it a big part of Thor and other God's origin that they are shaped from the belief of mankind?
Click to expand...
That could be a valid point. I'll look into my scans on God Physiology and see what I find to clarify the point
 
It seems like there are some notable contradictions here between stories, with some stating that gods are nothing without the faith of mortals and others demonstrating that gods never needed mortals in the first place.

 
Can somebody summarise/remind us of the arguments for different positions here please? 🙏
 
Okay. No problem. 🙏
 
MrKerf said:
Can you walk me through High 1-A and how it is reached? I read it all but in my mind it doesn't make any sense yet.
Click to expand...
For sure! Nyx at full power is High 1-A for basically embodying the opposite of the Multiversal Phoenix. It was stated in Immortal Thor 13/14 that Thor had to face Nyx in the Dark Cold Room where she was at full power, but that Reborn Zeus was an even greater danger than full power Nyx. Complete All-Father Thor took attacks from and stomped that Zeus
 
NaturalDestroyer said:
For sure! Nyx at full power is High 1-A for basically embodying the opposite of the Multiversal Phoenix. It was stated in Immortal Thor 13/14 that Thor had to face Nyx in the Dark Cold Room where she was at full power, but that Reborn Zeus was an even greater danger than full power Nyx. Complete All-Father Thor took attacks from and stomped that Zeus
Click to expand...
Does she really? I did look at her page and read that story where she reached the House of Ideas, but I never saw her being referenced to be the same Darkness as in Defenders Beyond. Even her origin shows Zeus himself, a Greek Pantheon specific.

Plus I would argue that she isn’t at “full power”, as opposed to being empowered by the nature of the Dark Cold Room, just like every other dark creature, like Shadow King.
Also also, being more “dangerous” does not directly transfer to more power all the time.

It’s all just feels very illogical imho.
 
Yes, especially as Zeus was stated to be a tiny spark of light within her infinite darkness, if I remember correctly. 🙏
 
Here's why the high end for Complete All-Father Thor would be "Possibly up to High 1-A". These events are in chronological order.

1. Immortal Thor 13: The issue solicitation states that Nyx was at the height of her power, even before entering the Dark Cold Room. Hercules says that Nyx wasn't just recovering, but had "recovered all of her power and more," indicating that this Nyx was even stronger than her typical full levels. Nyx states that her power had been restored by endless night.
2. GoS Loki regarded Thor and this amped Nyx at night as too evenly matched to be a proper trial, and decided to give Nyx the terrain advantage to test Thor further.
3. Loki moves Nyx, Thor, and Hercules to the Dark Cold Room, where it is outright stated that Nyx and her children are at full power far before her conversation with Hercules. It's also stated in the solicitation that Zeus is a greater danger than this Nyx
4. Zeus is completely unharmed by full-power Nyx's attacks
5. Thor stomps that Zeus at the same time as Hercules talks to Nyx, and helps her realize she could grow even stronger than currently (which was already above her previous peak)
6. It's only then, when Nyx is realizing her full potential and far surpassing her previous levels, when she says that she views Thor as a lightning bug

As you can see, it's repeatedly stated in-verse and by the authors that Nyx was at full strength and even amped past it, even before entering the Dark Cold Room. Nyx stating that Thor is a lightning bug isn't an anti-feat, since at that point she was becoming far stronger than even her amped self. So we have a statement that Thor = amped Nyx, and a feat where Thor stomps somebody who no-sold attacks from amped Nyx. Nyx needed yet another amp to surpass Thor.

I prefer "Possibly up to High 1-A" rather than solidly "High 1-A". In isolation, this would be enough to justify a High 1-A regardless, as the scaling to full power Nyx is very clear-cut, but it's a little weird that Loki regarded Thor and amped Nyx to be equals and then Thor stomped somebody who was stated to be an even greater danger than amped Nyx. That shouldn't actually matter for High 1-A, since Nyx was amped for the entirety of this story and Zeus is at least her equal with author statements implying he's stronger.
 
Sigh... I see the problem. Our current Nyx profile defaults Full Power Nyx as High 1-A due to some bs really something that would require a CRT to undo.

Because otherwise it works perfectly. Both Nyx and Thor are 1-A, same in DCR, Zeus is relative, Thor beats him, and then Nyx grows in power further due to the nature of the DCR and her potential in it.

I see no point in arguing in that case, I'll add it to my Marvel Downgrade list T_T

However, issue solicitations are unusable, as they are "hype moments and aura" of comics, it's the same as using non-canonical cover art.
 
In terms of whether or not Full Power Nyx is High 1-A that would be something for its own CRT (and @Eseseso can shed more light on the subject). But yeah, it's very internally consistent that Thor scales to amped Nyx, so that would be High 1-A until an entirely separate conversation
 
MrKerf said:
Sigh... I see the problem. Our current Nyx profile defaults Full Power Nyx as High 1-A due to some bs really something that would require a CRT to undo.

Because otherwise it works perfectly. Both Nyx and Thor are 1-A, same in DCR, Zeus is relative, Thor beats him, and then Nyx grows in power further due to the nature of the DCR and her potential in it.

I see no point in arguing in that case, I'll add it to my Marvel Downgrade list T_T

However, issue solicitations are unusable, as they are "hype moments and aura" of comics, it's the same as using non-canonical cover art.
Click to expand...
Agreed, and thank you very much for preparing to make our Marvel Comics ratings less unhinged. 🙏
 
Whether Nyx is High 1-A or 1-A is a conversation for another CRT, so for now I think we agree that peak Thor = amped Nyx is internally consistent regardless of their ratings. Do we have any thoughts on the rest of the proposal?
 
The_Impress said:
Meh, I mean you aren't upgrading a single character in practice so I'd argue Nyx being an ass file is relevant if we're discussing rescaling 200 pages.
Click to expand...
I'm actually not proposing that really anybody scale to Thor's High 1-A peak, with the possible exception of peak Hulk (who could be High 1-A anyway with TOBA stuff)
 
The_Impress said:
Meh, I mean you aren't upgrading a single character in practice so I'd argue Nyx being an ass file is relevant if we're discussing rescaling 200 pages.
Click to expand...
I agree. I think Nyx should be looked at here, before finalizing the Thor upgrade.
NaturalDestroyer said:
I'm actually not proposing that really anybody scale to Thor's High 1-A peak, with the possible exception of peak Hulk (who could be High 1-A anyway with TOBA stuff)
Click to expand...
I think Rune King Thor would upscale, due to being narratively far more powerful than normal All-Father Thor.c
 
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