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All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread

CryoTheMayo said:
Simple. Goku said that when they were shrunken down. And they were explicitly weakened by it.
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At no point did Goku believe they would come out tiny when they left Super Buu's body
CryoTheMayo said:
People just extrapolated that to assume Kid Buu was weaker than Super Buu. Even though it is made very clear by Kibito Kai that Kid Buu was made weaker by gaining a heart. And even though Kid Buu can push back the Spirit Bomb, which was empowered by Ultimate Gohan's Ki. This is when characters like Freeza couldn't resist the Spirit Bomb at all despite Goku not actively pushing it or characters in the Buu Saga blaming the Spirit Bomb's initial failure on it not being powerful enough.
Click to expand...
The Spirit Bomb that doesn't scale to Goku is not a very good argument. Kid Buu was obliterated by it. Also, it has part of Gohan's "genki", which is one component of Ki. 1/3rd of it.


CryoTheMayo said:
There is actually very little evidence that Goku was weaker than Super Buu. And plenty of statements of him becoming the 'strongest' as well as needing to charge his Ki in Super Saiyan 3 to be that strong.
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We have quite a few statements declaring Goku and Fat Buu equals in power.

CryoTheMayo said:
There is also plenty of evidence for Kid Buu being the strongest Buu, although we settled for Buuhan > Kid Buu > Super Buu.
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We're not entertaining this btw.

Elder Kai straight up said Goku had absolutely no chance at beating Buutenks, let alone Buuhan.
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
But have you considered

Random bullshit power-up that was never even alluded to?
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You know, the funny thing is that there is actually an implication that Potara Users grow stronger after defusing in both Toei and Super as shown by the bajillion and a half statements and feats of Post-Vegito Goku and Vegeta fighting Ultimate Gohan, Gotenks and Kid Buu and then in Super Base Goku and Vegeta surviving a bloodlusted Fused Zamasu attacking them while also giving Trunks' Spirit Sword a gargantuan boost in power after they began feeding it energy even while completely drained of Ki.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
You know, the funny thing is that there is actually an implication that Potara Users grow stronger after defusing in both Toei and Super as shown by the bajillion and a half statements and feats of Post-Vegito Goku and Vegeta fighting Ultimate Gohan, Gotenks and Kid Buu and then in Super Base Goku and Vegeta surviving a bloodlusted Fused Zamasu attacking them while also giving Trunks' Spirit Sword a gargantuan boost in power after they began feeding it energy even while completely drained of Ki.
Click to expand...
I'd like to call this bad writing.
 
Robo432343 said:
but it was stated that ss3 goku was no match for super buu
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Only when shrunken down with his power cut to 1/100 of his actual power level. Even with that nerf he was still fighting a perfect copy of Bloodlusted Ultimate Gohan without even using Super Saiyan 3.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
Only when shrunken down with his power cut to 1/100 of his actual power level. Even with that nerf he was still fighting a perfect copy of Bloodlusted Ultimate Gohan without even using Super Saiyan 3.
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Anime-only.
Also, Goku never believed he'd come out tiny if he left Super Buu's body.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
I was only referring to the anime. Obviously Manga Kid Buu and Goku are inferior to Super Buu, that's not even arguable. Toei Anime Kid Buu and Goku though are beating his ass.
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Don't we accept Manga Kid Buu and Goku > Super Buu, SSJ3 Gotenks, and Gohan right now?
  • The Buuhan Agenda:
    • SS1 Vegito > Vegito > Buuhan > Buutenks > Maxed SS3 Goku ~ Kid Buu > Gohan > Default Post-RoSaT SS3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Post-RoSaT SS1 Gotenks > Post-RoSaT SS1 Gotenks > Majin Buu > SS2 Goku and Majin Vegeta
Wasn't this what was accepted
 
I tried estimating the distance between Namek and its nearest sun—using the size of Proxima Centauri, the star closest to Earth's sun and a red dwarf, closely matching the color of Namek's nearest sun—and then using that distance to calculate the size of Namek through angle-sizing. I got 439,000 km for its diameter this way, but I'm not exactly sure if that's actually a valid method of determining a celestial body's size.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
I tried estimating the distance between Namek and its nearest sun—using the size of Proxima Centauri, the star closest to Earth's sun and a red dwarf, closely matching the color of Namek's nearest sun—and then using that distance to calculate the size of Namek through angle-sizing. I got 439,000 km for its diameter this way, but I'm not exactly sure if that's actually a valid method of determining a celestial body's size.
Click to expand...
That's about 20x the diameter of the Earth, with no effects on humans, and with the planet being considered small. I don't think it's valid at all.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
That's about 20x the diameter of the Earth, with no effects on humans, and with the planet being considered small. I don't think it's valid at all.
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Should Namek be accepted as small, considering how the planet is explicitly described as "small" and having a similar topography to Earth? Yes. But y'know.

I'm, like, 99% sure that the Wiki openly accepts Namek being several times larger than the sun but strictly disallows the use of a calculated GBE because of those complications.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
Should Namek be accepted as small, considering how the planet is explicitly described as "small" and having a similar topography to Earth? Yes. But, thinking like a VS Battles user, a planet twenty times larger than the Earth could simply be made of materials much denser than those making up Earth.
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Yeah, we can make up an excuse for why it is like that, but we're putting a headcanon to support a headcanon, something that was inferred by a fan-calculation. How is this any different that essentially calc stacking? We're using a made-up excuse. If it's not established by the series, then it's meaningless.

Naturally, I'm going to try and undo some of the decisions made in my absence. Even though, from the looks of it, DBZ Kakarot was one of the driving forces that allowed this gigantic Namek. Dang.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Yeah, we can make up an excuse for why it is like that, but we're putting a headcanon to support a headcanon, something that was inferred by a fan-calculation. How is this any different that essentially calc stacking? We're using a made-up excuse. If it's not established by the series, then it's meaningless.

Naturally, I'm going to try and undo some of the decisions made in my absence. Even though, from the looks of it, DBZ Kakarot was one of the driving forces that allowed this gigantic Namek. Dang.
Click to expand...
We had discussed removing the upgrade a while back because it was useless even if it was right, which it isnt, we just never got around to it
 
GodlyCharmander said:
At no point did Goku believe they would come out tiny when they left Super Buu's body
Click to expand...
And yet they all express surprise when leaving his body. And in the raw he refers to 'us leaving like this'.
GodlyCharmander said:
The Spirit Bomb that doesn't scale to Goku is not a very good argument. Kid Buu was obliterated by it. Also, it has part of Gohan's "genki", which is one component of Ki. 1/3rd of it.
Click to expand...
Terrible argument. What are the other two components of Ki? Shoki and Yuki. What are those? Courage and Right-Mindedness. Goku is providing that by controlling the Spirit Bomb. Genki is Energy. Genki is raw power. Now cut to DBS, a canon sequel to the original story. How is the Spirit Bomb depicted there? That's right. Team U7's collective energy makes a strong enough Spirit Bomb that surpasses X20 Blue Goku. How does this work? It works, because the power upscales with the power levels of those giving power.

Let's entertain the idea that Ultimate Gohan could only give '1/3rd' of his overall power to Goku. It's that, combined with the power of every other person. How powerful is that? Can you measure the end result? No. You can't. It'd just be somewhere above 1/3rd of Ultimate Gohan who is above Gotenks who is above Super Buu.
GodlyCharmander said:
We have quite a few statements declaring Goku and Fat Buu equals in power.
Click to expand...
And yet we have Goku stating he could have defeated Fat Buu and both Goku and Vegeta acknowledging that SS3 Goku could defeat Kid Buu 'instantly' if he had time to charge his Ki. You and I both know Fat Buu doesn't surpass Kid Buu.
GodlyCharmander said:
We're not entertaining this btw.
Click to expand...
Who's 'we'?
GodlyCharmander said:
Elder Kai straight up said Goku had absolutely no chance at beating Buutenks, let alone Buuhan.
Click to expand...
And this has zero bearing on anything. Why? Because for starters, we settled for Buuhan > Kid Buu > Super Buu anyway, so any contradiction raised by that isn't relevant to the conclusion reached. And secondly, it doesn't even matter how Goku scales. What matters is that Kid Buu is explicitly stronger because he loses his heart. Is repeatedly referred to as the strongest across countless sources and Goku and Kid Buu are referred to as 'fellow strongest'. All combined with Kid Buu repelling a Spirit Bomb charged with Ultimate Gohan's power combined with the power of everyone else.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
And yet they all express surprise when leaving his body. And in the raw he refers to 'us leaving like this'.
Click to expand...
On God you're not making me debate this...

They don't express any surprise.
CryoTheMayo said:
Terrible argument. What are the other two components of Ki? Shoki and Yuki. What are those? Courage and Right-Mindedness. Goku is providing that by controlling the Spirit Bomb.
Click to expand...
Goku does not include any of his own energy in the spirit bomb, and the technique only gets vitality/vigor.

There isn't a statement.
There isn't a panel.
There isn't a single material if we included non-canon, that supports your interpretation.

So you can cease arguing for it.
CryoTheMayo said:
Genki is Energy. Genki is raw power.
Click to expand...
If Ki represents raw power and needs the combination of all three, Genki alone cannot be raw power, and certainly not a relevant factor of it. Again, the energy does obliterate Kid Buu.
CryoTheMayo said:
Now cut to DBS, a canon sequel to the original story. How is the Spirit Bomb depicted there? That's right. Team U7's collective energy makes a strong enough Spirit Bomb that surpasses X20 Blue Goku. How does this work? It works, because the power upscales with the power levels of those giving power.
Click to expand...
The DBS spirit bomb is a good case of the technique being inconsistent. It has the collective energy of several characters in their base forms.

Are we claiming Blue Kaioken is equivalent to 10 base form members of universe 7? Certainly not. In this case, we can discard Spirit Bomb scaling.

CryoTheMayo said:
Let's entertain the idea that Ultimate Gohan could only give '1/3rd' of his overall power to Goku. It's that, combined with the power of every other person.
Click to expand...
Not overall power, because Gohan certainly is very much alive and not tired at all.
CryoTheMayo said:
How powerful is that? Can you measure the end result? No. You can't. It'd just be somewhere above 1/3rd of Ultimate Gohan who is above Gotenks who is above Super Buu.
Click to expand...
Gotenks, is in fact, not above Super Buu, but relative to him.

The fact we can't measure the Spirit Bomb paints the point of how useless it is for argument. And you brought it up, not me.

Mind I remind you of how the manga treats these encounters?

Elder Kai basically ridiculed the idea of Goku fighting Buutenks.

This is evidence of:

Buutenks > Goku.

Super Gotenks 3 is equal to Super Buu.

This is evidence of:

Buutenks > 2x > Super Buu.

So the gap between Goku and Super Buu is far lower than 2x, they are close to each other even if you argue he's superior. This also puts Gohan and Goku is a similar ballpark as well, if you want to argue it.

This means the Spirit Bomb scaling is even more inconsistent with the scaling, by all means, Gohan's energy alone should be fairly close to Goku SSJ3, or outright superior. Drop this silly point.
CryoTheMayo said:
And yet we have Goku stating he could have defeated Fat Buu and both Goku and Vegeta acknowledging that SS3 Goku could defeat Kid Buu 'instantly' if he had time to charge his Ki. You and I both know Fat Buu doesn't surpass Kid Buu.
Click to expand...
Doesn't... That prove that Kid Buu and Fat Buu (before unmerge) are in the same ball park?

KId Buu stomped Good Buu, not Fat Buu.
CryoTheMayo said:
Who's 'we'?

And this has zero bearing on anything. Why? Because for starters, we settled for Buuhan > Kid Buu > Super Buu anyway, so any contradiction raised by that isn't relevant to the conclusion reached. And secondly, it doesn't even matter how Goku scales. What matters is that Kid Buu is explicitly stronger because he loses his heart. Is repeatedly referred to as the strongest across countless sources and Goku and Kid Buu are referred to as 'fellow strongest'. All combined with Kid Buu repelling a Spirit Bomb charged with Ultimate Gohan's power combined with the power of everyone else.
Click to expand...
That's great, I'm not making a page changing CRT, I'm debating you on your own beliefs on the matter.

Kid Buu is stronger than Fat Buu, Super Buu does not have the same kind weakness and he is stronger than Fat Buu as well.

Any and every citation of Kid Buu as the strongest refers to Buu as a character, encompassing every single transformation as one single character, as every guide uses brackets to refer to specific forms

I have ample evidence of that for the daizenshuu.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
On God you're not making me debate this...
Click to expand...
We're not debating it. Every argument you are making has already been addressed beforehand, In the thread you were already linked, or is a misunderstanding of something I said. I even showed you a useful blog to add upon that. If you want to debate it more thoroughly seek out the OP of the CRT and maybe talk to him on Discord or something.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
They are inside of his body.
Click to expand...
Robo432343 said:
did goku and vegeta know they were small before buu told them they were
Click to expand...
Goku and Vegeta straight up expected to go back to normal once they left:
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XZ46Jsi.jpeg

CkMJbsk.jpeg

CTZd8kO.jpeg
 
CryoTheMayo said:
They are inside of his body.
Click to expand...
but even in the anime never once does Goku tell Vegeta that they are too small or anything but rather he states they dont have enough power. Also just like in the manga, Vegeta's reasoning for ripping out Fat Buu is to help lower Super Buu's power since its still too much for them... I thought maybe the anime brought up their concern about their size once they left Buu but it never did, just like in the manga.... Huh...
 
Robo432343 said:
but even in the anime never once does Goku tell Vegeta that they are too small or anything but rather he states they dont have enough power. Also just like in the manga, Vegeta's reasoning for ripping out Fat Buu is to help lower Super Buu's power since its still too much for them... I thought maybe the anime brought up their concern about their size once they left Buu but it never did, just like in the manga.... Huh...
Click to expand...
Goku never once for a second believed he'd come out tiny with 1/100th of his body.

He resorted to ripping out Good Buu so he could stand a chance, which wouldn't be a solution if he thought he'd stay tiny.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
The DBS spirit bomb is a good case of the technique being inconsistent. It has the collective energy of several characters in their base forms.
Click to expand...
You haven't proven it's inconsistent. Genki, Ki, and Shoki are just different types of Ki. Not 1/3rd of it. They are spiritual energies. You don't attack with Shoki or Yuki. Genki is the actual energy you use to power yourself; it's your life force. Shoki and Yuki based off what they are just allow you to use your energy to it's fullest. But the spirit bomb takes that raw energy, so those factors don't mean anything. It's also why Kibito Kai couldn't teleport and was completely drained. You'd have to wonder why he couldn't teleport if he really only gave 1/3rd of his Ki. The answer is because he was literally just out of energy. That's Genki. So Ultimate Gohan and sooo many other fighters and people gave their all to it, and Kid Buu still was able to hold out against it. The Z fighters energy alone wasn't enough. It was so bad, to the point that Goku didn't even consider throwing it at all, no matter what. So Kid Buu>>Ultimate Gohan.
 
TiltedFN said:
You haven't proven it's inconsistent. Genki, Ki, and Shoki are just different types of Ki. Not 1/3rd of it. They are spiritual energies. You don't attack with Shoki or Yuki. Genki is the actual energy you use to power yourself; it's your life force. Shoki and Yuki based off what they are just allow you to use your energy to it's fullest. But the spirit bomb takes that raw energy, so those factors don't mean anything. It's also why Kibito Kai couldn't teleport and was completely drained. You'd have to wonder why he couldn't teleport if he really only gave 1/3rd of his Ki. The answer is because he was literally just out of energy. That's Genki. So Ultimate Gohan and sooo many other fighters and people gave their all to it, and Kid Buu still was able to hold out against it. The Z fighters energy alone wasn't enough. It was so bad, to the point that Goku didn't even consider throwing it at all, no matter what. So Kid Buu>>Ultimate Gohan.
Click to expand...
But Kid Buu was obliterated by a very weak spirit bomb. The gang donated their ki but they were just brought back to life and we know that when you just get revived, you'll be weaker and you won't have your full ki.
 
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