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Pokemon Discussion Thread - Red & Blue arc

かつてないほどの壮絶な戦いが今、始まる！ Also returned SM scale Ash final far above all previous his battle with Tapu Koko considers something out of place compared to anything before which would include any previous SM character and legendaries even reduces anime scale is very clear intention and even that larger anime scale is based on is atypical value Cynthia with Dialga and Palkia and Ash SM feats and Darkai from that movie
 
Jinx666 said:
Im only using the game mechanic reasons people are trying to push as to why Solar Beam wouldnt be avoidable. So thanks for calling out the flaw in logic of it

Normally yeah, Solar Beam is able to be dodged by characters who are FTL. Game mechanics dont let people do that without added stuff like evasion and accuracy tho.

friendship dodge is a game mechanic that lets a level 1 pokemon survive the craziest stuff. This also requires...a pokemon owned by a trainer, and having a bond with them. Thats not comparable to species, obviously
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this isn't they toughed it out don't be sad what happen was they were told to dodge and they dodged that doesn't require friendship powers. Anyway unless you can provide a different speed feat in the primary material we kinda have to use secondary material.
 
Aftshhhrrgjbv said:
かつてないほどの壮絶な戦いが今、始まる！ Also returned SM scale Ash final far above all previous his battle with Tapu Koko considers something out of place compared to anything before which would include any previous SM character and legendaries even reduces anime scale is very clear intention and even that larger anime scale is based on is atypical value Cynthia with Dialga and Palkia and Ash SM feats and Darkai from that movie
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I'mma be real with you man, I am struggling to understand what you're trying to say.
 
Arceus0x said:
Technically it would somewhat fit with how we see it in the manga, with 50% Zygarde getting absolutely mogged by UN only to match it in power with the 50% forme. Still, with the average between the depictions I'd say 50% Zygarde would still end up around Tapu level, just not including Guardian de Alola.
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this creates actually long chain
pikachu >tapu koko>ash and final gladion >kiawe guzma>hapu and kahunas >dominant pokemon>half gladion Sm=ash arc mother beast pikachu >ash xyz ash alain Everything that climbs
 
Lou_change said:
this isn't they toughed it out don't be sad what happen was they were told to dodge and they dodged that doesn't require friendship powers. Anyway unless you can provide a different speed feat in the primary material we kinda have to use secondary material.
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We kinda dont?
If FTL isnt consistent in the mainline, then it shouldnt be used over more consistent speed tiers. Accuracy over big numbers.
 
Arceus0x said:
I'mma be real with you man, I am struggling to understand what you're trying to say.
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The battle between Pikachu and Tapu Koko, specifically, is far beyond anything seen before. But anyway, SM clearly demonstrates the scale of Ash, Gladion, Kukui, and the other Alola League semi-finalists, placing them far above everything that came before.

Other Pokémon and characters that should be scaled include Hau, Ilima, Hapu, and the other Kahunas. Perhaps some dominant Pokémon could also be included.
 
Would still apply in battles where they can react/tag them moving at that speed.

Better than just trying to assume they are all FTL because of mechanic standards that apply to every Pokemon
 
Lou_change said:
that is all just movement speed
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Why would Pokemon get billions of times slower just cause they're moving towards a location lol
Like I'm 99% sure the intent of those entries isn't "Oh every single Pokemon is FTL, but this Pokemon specifically can move at the amazing speed of a snail!"

Really they're just outliers/inconsistent with their showings, in regards to the anime at least (I think? Haven't watched all 1300 episodes).
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
Why would Pokemon get billions of times slower just cause they're moving towards a location lol
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Movement speed not being equal to travel speed has been a long standing part of powerscaling, questioning it now wouldn't really work unless you wanna go after Sonic for not just crossing the planet instantly, after Mario for the same reasons, after Link for the same reasons, after...I think you get the point.
 
Arceus0x said:
Movement speed not being equal to travel speed has been a long standing part of powerscaling, questioning it now wouldn't really work unless you wanna go after Sonic for not just crossing the planet instantly, after Mario for the same reasons, after Link for the same reasons, after...I think you get the point.
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It’s a bit different when they’re outright given numerical values for their speed and said values are treated as exceptional. They're just anti-feats.
(Don't think the Sonic comparison works either since like all his speed feats rn is him covering large distances)
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
It’s a bit different when they’re outright given numerical values for their speed and said values are treated as exceptional. They're just anti-feats.
(Don't think the Sonic comparison works either since like all his speed feats rn is him covering large distances)
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Ok, MHA has the Mach 10 stated running speed for All Might. I can find more of the same across fiction. In a verse where electric attacks are consistently dodged and lightning speed is acknowledged, supersonic shouldn't be the cap.
 
Arceus0x said:
Ok, MHA has the Mach 10 stated running speed for All Might. I can find more of the same across fiction. In a verse where electric attacks are consistently dodged and lightning speed is acknowledged, supersonic shouldn't be the cap.
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And JJK has a dozen or so Supersonic and higher calcs that are getting thrown out cause of similar statements. Really just depends on who's evaluating the verse tbh

Though MHS+ does seem way more consistent than the Mach stuff in Pokemon, think Pikachu trained by intercepting lightning bolts one time. That do be kinda an anti-feat for FTL tho
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
And JJK has a dozen or so Supersonic and higher calcs that are getting thrown out cause of similar statements. Really just depends on who's evaluating the verse tbh

Though MHS+ does seem way more consistent than the Mach stuff in Pokemon, think Pikachu trained by intercepting lightning bolts one time. That do be kinda an anti-feat for FTL tho
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I feel like people are very much struggling to understand that Pokemon has Marvel levels of inconsistency that needs to be slowly and carefully evaluated and, well, cherry picked for it to work. It's one of the reasons why I dislike the canon split. Sure, it'll cut off some inconsistency, but it will not fill the holes left by the inconsistencies, rather, it will just invite uncertainty and more inconsistency to fill up those gaps which will eventually lead to similar problems. Some may have not noticed but even the pokedex stuff I use for scaling is mostly things that have a feat from the anime and manga that backs them up. Tyranitar's mountain breaking earthquake is supported by Piloswine obltierating Ekruteak with an earthquake, Meowstic tearing apart a tank? Supported by Slowking lifting an island (which is only 2x lower).
I try my best to keep even the pokedex stuff within consistency range. I think I would be able to do more and make the verse better but the issue is that even a smaller CRT of mine is currently not getting any votes at all. With that revision rate (that has been rather similar throughout history) it's no wonder the current verse has so many issues.
 
Arceus0x said:
This is just misinformed. The legendary heights is just visual inconsistency, I think it was somewhere in the Tera Leak that they made them look bigger for coolness effect.
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Do you have a link to that?

Arceus0x said:
Then there's the size for normal Pokemon and....have you not been there for the past few gens?? You can literally own different-sized Pokemon,
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Agree with this
 
Arceus0x said:
Everyone can get tagged by solar beam one way or another, same way they can block it. You can very much get tagged by things slower than you.
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Its very difficult to get tagged by a projectile that's less than half your speed, especially if it has to travel a distance before reaching you. The calc puts the feat as 2.46x faster than Solar Beam. If we take all fully evolved wild Pokemon as comparable to each other, then Solar Beam shouldn't be significantly slower than a lot of other projectile/beam moves, otherwise it would create more inconsistencies (why would Pokemon even use the move if its so slow and thus easy to dodge). This means that with the speed scaling VSBW currently uses, most Pokemon projectile moves are more than 2x slower than fully evolved Pokemon, which would make many moves useless

I agree that are instances where Pokemon don't dodge attacks even if they should be fast enough to, if they're trying to block it, intercept it, or if they're caught off guard/less than a meter away. But there are obviously a lot of instances where you can't explain them getting tagged by moves without saying that the Pokemon is too slow to dodge it. Here's one for Buneary for example, whose unable to dodge a Solar Beam fired meters away despite the fact that she was looking directly at it. You can't use the excuse that Buneary was weakened, it wasn't weakened to the point where it became noticeably slower. This isn't the only example btw, it happens every so often in the anime
 
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Should we scale them now? I think the Kahunas should be placed higher due to their feats in the anime. By the end of the Sun & Moon anime, they are all shown to be comparable to Hapu, who was comparable to Gladion before the League.

Additionally, Ash and Gladion should scale above Groudon, Primal Kyogre, and 50% Zygarde. This leads us to question who should be scaled to planetary level and whether they could even reach universal scaling.

Thanks to Pikachu, who is comparable to Solgaleo—who defeated Necrozma (Dark Wing)—this further reinforces the scaling.

Now that I think about it, why don’t we have profiles for the Kahunas and Kiawe?

Both in the anime and the games, it is shown that they certainly deserve a 3-A rating, as they are comparable to the Sun & Moon protagonist and even end-of-series Ash. Even if they are somewhat weaker, they can still hold their own.
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Prime2024 said:
Main villain of Pokemon Horizons
20260417-143655.jpg
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I have so much to talk about for the main villain of HZ, his abilities are insane
 
Jinx666 said:
Stuff like Sonic Boom too are always sure-fire hits which shouldnt be the case since theres lots of pokemon that surpass sound.
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Unless you're talking about its "fixed 20 damage property" that can "surely hit" by ignoring defense to always do 20 damage (Though that trait wouldn't be needed to be guaranteed to doing damage in Pokemon when minimum damage on non-immune hits is 1.), then... no?

Sonic Boom has always had 90% Accuracy, & is so inherently able to miss in gameplay.
 
Imaginym said:
Unless you're talking about its "fixed 20 damage property" that can "surely hit" by ignoring defense to always do 20 damage (Though that trait wouldn't be needed to be guaranteed to doing damage in Pokemon when minimum damage on non-immune hits is 1.), then... no?

Sonic Boom has always had 90% Accuracy, & is so inherently able to miss in gameplay.
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Thought about the wrong move

Still doesnt mean anything. missing =/= dodging since it implies the aim was off, and using accuracy and game mechanics to try and determine someone is FTL via a solar beam is just purely wrong
 
What do yall think of giving different Legendary Pokemon of the same species different statistics and abilities (even if they're both from the same world)
 
Hypertornado099 said:
What do yall think of giving different Legendary Pokemon of the same species different statistics and abilities (even if they're both from the same world)
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There have been cases where certain Pokemon are notably individual among their species.
 
I've found several instances of Legendaries having very different power levels, even if its 2 different ones of the same species in the same series. If an Articuno in Battle Frontier is a completely different power level than the one in Journeys, I think it isn't crazy to say that the Articuno in the Manga/Games can get a different profile with different stats

I've also found that the powers of Legendary Pokemon can work differently in different canons. I haven't even done much research and I've already found maybe 5 or 6 instances, from Gen 3-6
 
I have been trying to work out some of the statistics for the various legendary Pokemon. Most have a certain baseline within their species but have their high ends. We also have to remember that not all scaling is acceptable and lots of fights can be interpreted as outliers. Articuno and Regis in Journeys would probably be outliers since Ash has quite literally beaten them before when he was way weaker and they were trained.

It was accepted in the unsplit that many of the legendaries would have a Varies rating based on the fact that they're species and can be stronger or weaker by virtue of that.

I wi say, it will take time, so don't do anything drastic. This kind of revision needs to be done bit by bit so as to not rip the whole thread of scaling to pieces and forget things that are straight up obvious.
 
I am currently working on a CRT that will shift legendary scaling by a bit whilst I recompile the Mega CRT for the future.
 
Arceus0x said:
I have been trying to work out some of the statistics for the various legendary Pokemon. Most have a certain baseline within their species but have their high ends. We also have to remember that not all scaling is acceptable and lots of fights can be interpreted as outliers. Articuno and Regis in Journeys would probably be outliers since Ash has quite literally beaten them before when he was way weaker and they were trained.

It was accepted in the unsplit that many of the legendaries would have a Varies rating based on the fact that they're species and can be stronger or weaker by virtue of that.

I wi say, it will take time, so don't do anything drastic. This kind of revision needs to be done bit by bit so as to not rip the whole thread of scaling to pieces and forget things that are straight up obvious.
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I mean it doesn't have to be an outlier, they could just be much more powerful Articunos and Regis
 
I won't try to make a drastic CRT on my own, I could just make one to solidify the fact that legendaries can have different stats/abilities. I could also work on reworks for their profiles, but that should come in another CRT and I can't do it alone



It wouldn't take too much time to make mainline game and anime/movie profiles. The games are pretty short, so you can just go through the game in a day or 2 to collect their feats. For the anime/movie legendaries, almost all of them don't have that many appearances. You can check their appearances on serebii's anime dex. Horizon's Rayquaza would probably take the longest
 
Arceus0x said:
Or they could not. Pokemon abd consistency don't go well together.
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I feel like assuming that a different Articuno and Registeel are immensely more powerful would be a better assumption to make, since we know for a fact that legendary pokemon of the same species can vary in power
 
Hypertornado099 said:
I won't try to make a drastic CRT on my own, I could just make one to solidify the fact that legendaries can have different stats/abilities. I could also work on reworks for their profiles, but that should come in another CRT and I can't do it alone



It wouldn't take too much time to make mainline game and anime/movie profiles. The games are pretty short, so you can just go through the game in a day or 2 to collect their feats. For the anime/movie legendaries, almost all of them don't have that many appearances. You can check their appearances on serebii's anime dex. Horizon's Rayquaza would probably take the longest
Click to expand...
Horizon's legendaries are a problem because they're all trained, meaning we can't use them for scaling and interscaling
 
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