Ben 10 MFTL+ Anti Feats

[Reiner04]

No more unnecessary comments. Stay on topic.

 

[Chariot190]

A ******* bible just to repeat the same thing man?

If you think that's a bible I have some very unfortunate news for you.
Also not a rebuttal, actually argue and prove your burden instead of acting fussy over it, don't say anything at all if you don't have something relevant to say and you're just going to complain.

There are no anti feats un this CRT, all of ghem Is calling a laser bs for the same of It even t'ho ir doesn't have Amy contradiction at all.

Which cycles back to the first part of my post in how calling everything "not normal don't count", is going to end up backfiring, ignoring that. Explosion, debris, actual timeframes stated on screen, basic gravity acceleration, ablation, etc.

There is plenty of inconsistencies. And that's only what's been posted, if you were to actually go through every episode I can assure you that you'd find hundreds of instances where characters fail to do something, get outsped by something, or whatever, that are magnitudes below even FTL.

Funny you say all that shit about "having a few feats doesn't mean you've that level, and anti feata become the norm" while also scaling Marvel and DC to Tier 2 and 1, while they have more anti feata of them struggling to moving a planet or saying they can't move faster than light.

Ok then downgrade them, go make the CRT.

You're doubling down on the exact problem I mentioned, why you would actively go and prove me right in your attempt to prove me wrong is a bit odd, but all the same.
Instead of actually proving your case is legitimate and what was asked, you immediately complain about "well other verses are wrong too!", ok, then they're wrong too, so maybe they should be downgraded?
Go downgrade them if you don't like them.
This is never going to be an argument, ever.
Two wrongs don't make a right, why would fifty wrongs suddenly change that?

And ironically your perceived "gotcha" doesn't even work, like "or saying they can't move faster than light.", is that not literally why we have Batman and friends at Hypersonic instead of having at least off the top of my head, over 150 feats that would warrant MFTL+ for him, just like I mentioned? You're kind of just agreeing with me here and then dodging the fact it applies here too.

Hyperspace isn't requiered to move FTL

Robo post the funny.

, but it's a faster way to travel enormous distances. Jetray used it to catch up with Ship, who had a massive headstart.

That's fine, and hell it might even be true in part.
The issue is you're skipping the step in that you need to prove he didn't need to use Hyperspace to reach MFTL, when everything keeps saying his normal speed is simply mach range, repeatedly no less.
Like this isn't just a one-off statement, at the very least I've seen it repeated verbatim at least 3 times.

You're extrapolating an excuse for why he might've done it, and using that as fact for why he did and as such, can still fly MFTL without, when the latter part hasn't actually been proven.

And lmao, Tachyon Particles move at MFTL+ and there are a bunch of characters reacting to them.

Actually, that's dependent on the energy they have.
Tachyons are hypothetical particles that, in theory, would always move faster than light, sure.

The basic idea in special relativity is that normal particles with real rest mass can only move at sublight, massless particles move exactly at c, and tachyons, if they existed, would be stuck over c and could never slow down to c or below.

The part you're skipping over is how energy works with them, for an ordinary particle, adding energy pushes its speed closer to c from below, for a tachyon, adding energy pushes its speed closer to c from above.

So for a tachyon, lower energy = much faster than light, yet higher energy = less absurdly fast, but still above light speed.

A common formula used for a tachyon is the ol E = M*c^2 / sqrt(v^2/c^2 - 1)

I'm sure you can figure out the shorthands, so moving on,

Rearranged you get v = c * sqrt(1 + (M*c^2 / E)^2)

What this means is that, if E gets bigger, the extra amount above c gets smaller, if E gets smaller, v shoots farther above c.

They're kind of inverted mechanically from how speed sually works.
Ignoring relativity problems but eh.

So cool, tachyons are a hypothetical class of always-FTL objects, and in the usual math, more energy makes them approach light speed from above rather than outrun it more. But that's the thing, are the tachyons in Ben 10 even always MFTL?
If they're tachyons, the speed can vary, how much so can be quantified, so instead of just guessing, you're going to need to calc each actual instance due to said variance, because they can be MFTL+ in one instance, and infinitesimally above just 1c which would render dodging them at times sublight too. I bring this up because if they're having to dodge the tachyon beams, the energy would often be sufficient enough to drop it well below MFTL.

 

[Reiner04]

That's fine, and hell it might even be true in part.
The issue is you're skipping the step in that you need to prove he didn't need to use Hyperspace to reach MFTL, when everything keeps saying his normal speed is simply mach range, repeatedly no less.
Like this isn't just a one-off statement, at the very least I've seen it repeated verbatim at least 3 times.

You're extrapolating an excuse for why he might've done it, and using that as fact for why he did and as such, can still fly MFTL without, when the latter part hasn't actually been proven.

Jetray has been stated to be fastest flier in the omnitrix by ben, that includes chromastone whose one specie member named sugilite crossed half a galaxy in some time. Jetray also kept up with Vilgax flying speed who has been consistently chasing him and wanted to catch him "asap" to get his weapon back, in the same episode where vilgax, again, crossed half a galaxy.

All mach statements comes from external materials, there have been no such statement, even once, in the show, afair.

 

[DemonicDude]

Jetray has been stated to be fastest flier in the omnitrix by ben, that includes chromastone whose one specie member named sugilite crossed half a galaxy in some time. Jetray also kept up with Vilgax flying speed who has been consistently chasing him and wanted to catch him "asap" to get his weapon back, in the same episode where vilgax, again, crossed half a galaxy.

vilgax has his own flight speed from episode Ben 10 Alien Force Ghost Town flying in the outer space which you can calculate it easily.


this would also give him resistance to space cold.

 

[Chariot190]

Jetray has been stated to be fastest flier in the omnitrix by ben, that includes chromastone whose one specie member named sugilite crossed half a galaxy in some time. Jetray also kept up with Vilgax flying speed who has been consistently chasing him and wanted to catch him "asap" to get his weapon back, in the same episode where vilgax, again, crossed half a galaxy.

I'm aware.
That is what, 2 feats? Both of which from what I recall happened off screen no less.
Now compare that to like 10 statements stating his flight speed is mach range, and a few dozen examples on the contrary that shows him moving relative, or marginally quicker than things in the mach range. Some of which isn't exactly casual.

This is exactly what I mean, you're not actually weighing everything, you're filtering.
What makes those feats more relevant? Why do they outweigh Jetray's innate stated gimmick time and time again? What about the general portrayal? And given this is scaling to like everyone, what about everyone ELSE'S anti-feats, high effort showings, and more that are far, far, below MFTL+?
Half of those happen off screen too, are we sure they didn't use Hyperspace given Jetray himself in his one time MFTL did?

I just checked too, 227 episodes. You saying "same episode" isn't a good thing, it's a bad thing. Is that consistent overall if half of it is secluded to a single episode? That's less than 0.5% of the time. Now, obviously, you don't need to whip out a MFTL feat every episode to be consistently MFTL, in fact you could have only 1 MFTL feat and be legit MFTL, the problem is that it isn't 1 MFTL and a bunch of zero effort never fail mach feats, it's a few MFTL fighting against hundreds of showings, failures, and more that AREN'T just the equivalent of Superman deflecting a bullet.

 

[Robo432343]

Hyperspace isn't requiered to move FTL

look man i know using wog is not good and all

but this combined with evidence from the show is making your case really bad

 

[Reiner04]

Half of those happen off screen too, are we sure they didn't use Hyperspace given Jetray himself in his one time MFTL did?

There is no indication of them using Hyperspace, we see Sugilite properly travelling in space. Vilgax has been seen travelling in space (long distancex like from Vilgaxia to Earth) without use of Hyperspace too, Aggregor has been seen travelling in space without making use of Hyperspace too. If they'd used Hyperspace, there would have been indication like there was incase of Jetray, on both ends, he basically landed super close to the planet. There are two means of space travelling Ben 10, one is Hyperspace and other is regular space travel. Ships and characters are shown to make use of both from time to time. Aggregor has been travelling from one planet to another all by himself across the Map of Infinity arc.

look man i know using wog is not good and all

but this combined with evidence from the show is making your case really bad

Tachyons has been described as faster than light. Hyperspace Jump gate merely breaks travellers down to faster than light tachyons and broadcasts them to the reciever end. Much like how signals works. Not to mention several spaceships has been visually seen to travel at MFTL even mid-travel w/o use of hyperspace.

 

[Robo432343]

Tachyons has been described as faster than light. Hyperspace Jump gate merely breaks travellers down to faster than light tachyons and broadcasts them to the reciever end.

Tachyons have also been described to slow down when they gain energy but of course you don't take that into account in your calcs

 

[Reiner04]

Tachyons have also been described to slow down when they gain energy but of course you don't take that into account in your calcs

Which episode?

 

[Chariot190]

There is no indication of them using Hyperspace,

And yet how much of it is offscreen?
Like Jetray didn't enter hyperspace untill he was a decent bit out either, if they just did the ol usual cut, the crux of how he did the travel would have been cut out too.

Not to say it's confirmed, but it's not improbable either. And when we have stuff saying that, no, without Hyperspace they can't move that fast, and characters you claim to be "equal in speed", actively being stated to be mach speed consistently with general mach feats and even hard statements saying he isn't FTL normally.

Something doesn't add up here, and I'm leaning towards it's them being just randomly MFTL when the scaling, every feat actually applicable in a fight, and statements dictate otherwise.

we see Sugilite properly travelling in space. Vilgax has been seen travelling in space without use of Hyperspace too, Aggregor has been seen travelling in space without making use of Hyperspace too. If they'd used Hyperspace, there would have been indication like there was incase of Jetray, on both ends, he basically landed super close to the planet.

As above and below.
I am going to ignore how every single one of your MFTL feats is travel speed, most of which is offscreen, and one of which literally doesn't count explicitly.

Where are all the MFTL reaction and combat feats you said existed? You said it was hyper consistent? So where are they? If you want this to be taken legitimately, then actually supply the feats that you said existed so they can be calced?

Also you unironically just finished explaining yourself why reacting to a planet doesn't mean much even at MFTL+, it's a planet not exactly hard to react to and time even at millions of C, you can do so easily and still not be MFTL.

There are two means of space travelling Ben 10, one is Hyperspace and other is regular space travel. Ships and characters are shown to make use of both from time to time. Aggregor has been travelling from one planet to another all by himself across the Map of Infinity arc.

Inference. If it's established to hit FTL you need hyperspace/tachyons, they don't need to show it on screen in full every time someone goes to space and it cuts, showing it once or twice and then just doing the rest in cuts is just common sense.
The inference is they did in the offscreen timeframe.

You could argue it's not confirmed, but given what is confirmed would force that to be true if taken literally, end result doesn't change much.

But that ultimately doesn't matter, you keep ignoring the whole weighting process and acting like the only showings these characters even have are these few MFTL travel feats, in a vacuum, out of context.
That isn't true, me and you both know it isn't true, and you admitted it wasn't true in the post I just finished replying to where you said yourself some examples and even outlined some.
You obviously know there's issues here, it needs to be figured out, or acknowledge them and run with them without just resorting to "it's fiction/stylistic/etc.".

Tachyons has been described as faster than light. Hyperspace Jump gate merely breaks travellers down to faster than light tachyons and broadcasts them to the reciever end. Much like how signals works.

You just agreed with the post.

If Hyperspace breaks them down to tachyons (FTL particles), and that's how they go FTL, then right there, you just gave the actual reason for why it's FTL (Tachyons FTL, and only Tachyons for the most part), this makes sense given the statement, if what you're saying is true basically amounts to "nobody can move FTL without becoming FTL particles", which is a logical reason that not only explains why hyperspace enables FTL, but in turn explains why other stuff isn't FTL in context.

There's also the fact the post explicitly says nothing can hit FTL without it and Jet is incapable of FTL without it but eh.

Which episode?

Episode? My brother in Christ, tachyons are an "actual" theoretical FTL particle, they have actual rules just like photons and stuff. More energy they have, slower they become down to infinitesimally above just 1c.

Regardless, you're avoiding every single burden asked of you and instead just doubling down on the exact same issues and ignoring the literal mountain on the contrary, you could have, for arguments' sake, a HUNDRED non-hyperspace MFTL travel feats, you would still need to prove why they outweigh the HUNDREDS, if not THOUSANDS, of things on the contrary, scale cleanly to everything, yadda yadda.
You're not tho, you're repeating they may or may not exist, like yeah, they exist? But so does the anti-feats, showing, explicit statements and more?
What makes like 5 MFTL travel feats outweigh 5 anti-MFTL statements + a few dozen cap showings, for one dude let alone the rest? You're just skipping that process and that's exactly the problem.

 

[Saqphire]

I wanted to respond but I think Chariot got it

Also don't we got four votes? This should be closed lmao

 

[Cipher72]

I wanted to respond but I think Chariot got it

Also don't we got four votes? This should be closed lmao

If I remember correctly Firestorm was making a blog and currently it's 4-2 which I don't think is enough of a margin to warrant closure (I think Firestorm808 is neutral) moreover Damage and Ant hasn't reviewed the recent arguments yet. I think it's better to wait until they are done and finally reach a consensus if possible.

 

[Saqphire]

If I remember correctly Firestorm was making a blog and currently it's 4-2 which I don't think is enough of a margin to warrant closure (I think Firestorm808 is neutral) moreover Damage and Ant hasn't reviewed the recent arguments yet. I think it's better to wait until they are done and finally reach a consensus if possible.

Then somebody needs to summarise cuz I'm sure the ones who didn't follow the discourse don't wanna sift through 9 pages of slop

 

[Cipher72]

Then somebody needs to summarise cuz I'm sure the ones who didn't follow the discourse don't wanna sift through 9 pages of slop

That's why I said to wait until Firestorm is done after that (You/OP/Chariot) can summarise and (Firestorm/Rein/General) can summarise.
That's my two cents

 

[Robo432343]

I'm pretty sure that blog is attempting to justify some characters having MFTL+ combat reactions and that goes against what i'm trying to argue. I don't want a single character here having MFTL combat reactions. Relativistic combat and reaction speed with Massively FTL+ flight speed is the best here but the Ben 10 guys disagree with even that

 

[Cipher72]

I'm pretty sure that blog is attempting to justify some characters having MFTL+ combat reactions and that goes against what i'm trying to argue. I don't want a single character here having MFTL combat reactions. Relativistic combat and reaction speed with Massively FTL+ flight speed is the best here but the Ben 10 guys disagree with even that

That's the entire point of a discourse, right now neither side has enough votes to actually conclude the thread
5(Antvasima, Damage3245, Lephyr, KT & Nierre) - 2 (Reiner & TWILIGHT-OP)
Now both Ant & DarkDragonMedeus believes that waiting for Firestorm's blog is the right thing to do so that's 3 votes in favour of that.
Currently it's a split of 5-3-3, which is why it's best to wait for Firestorm's blog after that you guys can debate the conclusion of said blog if you want but you can't close the thread right now

 

[Saqphire]

That's the entire point of a discourse, right now neither side has enough votes to actually conclude the threads
4(Antvasima, Damage3245, Lephyr & Nierre) - 2 (Reiner & TWILIGHT-OP)
Now both Ant & DarkDragonMedeus believes that waiting for Firestorm's blog is the right thing to do so that's 3 votes in favour of that.
Currently it's a split of 4-3-2, possibly 4-3-3 which is why it's best to wait for Firestorm's blog after that you guys can debate the conclusion of said blog if you want but you can't close the thread right now

Ant voted? Then it's 5-2 cuz KT voted as well

 

[Saqphire]

Also I believe the downgrade happening is accepted, but how it will be downgraded is up in the air with the blog. Creating a follow up thread for how they will scale onwards should be acceptable unless I'm mistaken (Hell, that's what I did with Bleach lol)

 

[Robo432343]

Let me guess what's going to happen
we're going to discuss a blog that hasn't been created yet for like 3 more pages and then when it actually gets posted here, we're going to be discussing that for another like 5 more pages. It's best to discuss this blog somewhere else

 

[Cipher72]

Ant voted? Then it's 5-2 cuz KT voted as well

Both Ant and Damage haven't kept up with the arguments and Ant also wanted to see Firestorm's blog so either way I didn't think a 5-3 margin is enough to conclude also it's a very "rude" thing to do, I mean no point in being hasty and trying to conclude something with such a small margin especially when someone is working on compiling everything as that will just result in a new thread being created. It's been 9 pages best to see this through. That's my opinion.
Editing because I don't want to clutter.

Also I believe the downgrade happening is accepted, but how it will be downgraded is up in the air with the blog. Creating a follow up thread for how they will scale onwards should be acceptable unless I'm mistaken (Hell, that's what I did with Bleach lol)

Depends on Fire's blog if he opposes the downgrading it will be 5-3 (6-4-3 ?) which isn't a good enough margin so yea best to wait

Let me guess whats going to happen
we're going to discuss a blog that hasn't been created yet for like 3 more pages and then when it actually gets posted here, we're going to be discussing that for another like 5 more pages

I don't think you have a good enough margin to warrant closure and if you wanna discuss this in another thread for another 7 pages that's up to you.
Edit 2:

and create 9 more pages?

This thread or another pick your poison, well ig you can downgrade the profiles for like what ? A month or 3 ?

I agree the thread shouldn't be closed yet. I just disagree with discussing this blog here

Someone can copy paste the contents of the blog then idk what you wanna discuss aside from the literal blog that's supposed to end all arguments but sure you guys do you.

 

[Robo432343]

It's been 9 pages best to see this through. That's my opinion.

and create 9 more pages?

 

[Robo432343]

I don't think you have a good enough margin to warrant closure and if you wanna discuss this in another thread for another 7 pages that's up to you.

I agree the thread shouldn't be closed yet. I just disagree with discussing this blog here

 

[Lort15]

I agree the thread shouldn't be closed yet. I just disagree with discussing this blog here

How about creating a Wiki collab thing to discuss the blog? I guess this is getting to all feats and anti-feats about it

 

[GeneralSol16]

Let me guess what's going to happen
we're going to discuss a blog that hasn't been created yet for like 3 more pages and then when it actually gets posted here, we're going to be discussing that for another like 5 more pages. It's best to discuss this blog somewhere else

The blog will compare the anti Feats (which they are not) with the actual fears, and see if they're consistent enough, as well as to clarify who should scale to them.

 

[AmonInChains]

Agree with OP

 

[Saqphire]

The blog will compare the anti Feats (which they are not) with the actual fears, and see if they're consistent enough, as well as to clarify who should scale to them.

All of that can be done in a separate thread. Nobody wants to go through double digit pages here

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Also I believe the downgrade happening is accepted, but how it will be downgraded is up in the air with the blog. Creating a follow up thread for how they will scale onwards should be acceptable unless I'm mistaken (Hell, that's what I did with Bleach lol)

I actually agree with this. The downgrade does have enough votes currently to go through. However, the proper implementation needs to be accounted for, and given the length of the thread, I wouldn't mind going through that on a more focused one.

@Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus @Firestorm808 would you find this acceptable?

 

[GeneralSol16]

I actually agree with this. The downgrade does have enough votes currently to go through. However, the proper implementation needs to be accounted for, and given the length of the thread, I wouldn't mind going through that on a more focused one.

It does not.
Half of those votes are neutral expecting for Firestorm blog, ans the OP proppsak ja wrong based on what ga been presented here, which would need an entire revaluation of the level.

This cannot be closed.

 

[Da3ggman]

I’m gonna be honest, the fact that the tachyon bullshit was passed in the first place is a discredit to us. Like, Tachyons are inherently variable depending on how much energy is behind them, so the idea that galactic transportation would be the exact same as a gun is just double stupid.

Without the Tachyons you’ve got very few legit MFTL calcs vs a LOT of consistent sub-light combat stuff. I think it’s fairly obvious what the best solution is. Agree with the op, in case it wasn’t obvious enough.

 

[KaramcaS]

Seperate the dudes into God Tier Top Tier Mid Tier etc. and make the God Tiers Combat/Reaction speed MFTL+ 2309c due to Feedback and their normal speed to MFTL 788c due to Fasttrack

 

[KaramcaS]

Seperate the dudes into God Tier Top Tier Mid Tier etc. and make the God Tiers Combat/Reaction speed MFTL+ 2309c due to Feedback and their normal speed to MFTL 788c due to Fasttrack

"we cant do that its a fu*king circle chain" call the Ben 10 Supporters and let them do that

 

[Dalesean027]

Grandpa Max who is MFTL+ stated that Malware does not have FTL capabilities

Update: Lord @Zamasu_Chan found a bunch of anti feats but this was seemingly never discussed in future speed CRT's
Despite being able to traverse and patrol the globe, Ben 10k doesn’t have time to hang out for himself.
Stinkfly takes 4 hours and 55 minutes to give presents across the globe. Look closely. When Stinkfly first leaves the North Pole, it's a little after 7:05 pm. He finishes exactly when it hits midnight.
Gwen struggles to dodge lightning
XLR8 gets tagged by normal lightning.
FTL Time Beast blitzes Ben and Rook. (Only seems to be FTL via teleportation)
Hex catches XLR8 with a burst of light, sending him careening in a different direction
XLR8 gets blitzed by a construction truck
Zs'Skayr always gets outpaced by light.
I just found another anti feat of XLR8 failing to dodge lasers (1:14)
XLR8 gets caught on camera
Again i found a scene of Fasttrack who was running at full speed but was outrun by a missile
Jetray fails to dodge an electricity powered blast
Even with a head start and using Time Cycles, Ben and co. almost get caught in a black hole.
It was explicitly stated that Feedback's species need to use minute voltage differences between to propel themselves to travel through a 60 year light-year wide Nebula, showing that this is not their natural speed as they literally need to be launched to do it
Feedback fails to track FTL Time Beast
Feedback is comparable to Malware in speed who is stated to not have FTL capability
Ultimate Aggregor fails to react to Grandpa's laser blast
Vilgax gets blitzed by a car
Vilgax can't dodge Grandpa's laser blast in the same episode
MFTL+ reactions Ben can't react to falling rocks

On to Ben's fastest alien, Jetray:
'MFTL+' Jetray states he has to jump into hyperspace to perform a non-ftl speed feat. If Jetray was regularly MFTL+ then he wouldn’t need to go into hyperspace.
Ben needs a ship to travel to Kohtukoda instead of using Jetray
The Eye of the Beholder script states Jetray wasn't even moving light speed, he was moving near the speed of light to jump into hyperspace
Jetray is stated to be only several times the speed of sound
Ben 10 Ultimate Guidebook states Jetray flies at several times the speed of sound
Ben 10 Alien Force: The Complete Guidebook states Jet Ray can fly at several times the speed of sound
Alien Force Vol 6 Jetray Data states Jetray can move through air or water at several times the speed of sound

Some of the Ben 10 calcs in the verse page don't work and was debunked in this thread


Current Ben 10 Speed Calcs:

• XLR8 reacts to a beam of light: Relativistic (3.26E-01c)
• Zs'Skayr dodges a beam of light: Relativistic (0.3522c) (Zs'Skayr always gets outpaced by light)
• Kevin dodges P'andor's radiation: FTL (1.37c) (No evidence of this blast being light speed + Aimdodging)
• Fasttrack outspeeding a Nuclear fusion grenade during mid-explosion: Massively FTL (788.236320221c) (Full speed Fasttrack was outrun by a missile)
• Conquest Ray destroys Pluto: Massively FTL (587.64c)
• Feedback outspeeding a Tachyon cannon within short time: Massively FTL+ (2,309c)
• Chromastone flies to Petropia: Massively FTL+ (5,468,263,848c) (Flight speed)
• Jetray flies halfway across a galaxy: Massively FTL+ (6,807,425,142c) (Flight speed)
• The Rustbucket flies halfway across a galaxy: Massively FTL+ (9,265,662,000c) (Flight speed)
• Ship flies halfway across a galaxy: Massively FTL+ (11,663,071,048c) (Flight speed)
• Vilgax flies to Petropia: Massively FTL+ (23,826,006,790c) (Flight speed)
• Ultimate Aggregor flies to another galaxy: Massively FTL+ (131,489,998,991.24c) (Flight speed)

I propose the verse should be downgraded back to Relativistic again for combat speed and reactions

Agree: @Damage3245 @Nierre (At least Subsonic/Subsonic+ flight speed, and up to Relativistic+ with top speed unless there's other statements/feats that were missed) @LephyrTheRevanchist (Rela) @Antvasima @KingTempest

Agrees the MFTL combat reactions should stay but depends who actually scales to it: @Firestorm808 @DarkDragonMedeus @TWILIGHT-OP

Disagree: @Reiner04

Reiner pointed out some MFTL speed feats but half of them are invalid


1. This is travel speed.
2. This might be a valid feat
3. Again this is travel speed

5. This might be a valid feat
6. Your own scan literally states that Feedback's species need to use minute voltage differences between to propel themselves to travel through a 60 year light-year wide Nebula. The fact that Feedback needs to be launched to do this makes it clear that he can’t naturally move at MFTL+ speeds. You talk about how this is a good reaction feat when Feedback isn't even comparable to FTL time beast.
7. This calc comes from Jetray traversing across the galaxy and we know Jetray isn't casually MFTL+ as he specifically needed to jump into hyperspace to do this feat which isn't normal for someone who is casually MFTL+

Update: I compiled a list of all the Ben 10 speed calcs i found so far here

This makes sense to me and the recalcs seem fine

 

[Lort15]

Seperate the dudes into God Tier Top Tier Mid Tier etc. and make the God Tiers Combat/Reaction speed MFTL+ 2309c due to Feedback and their normal speed to MFTL 788c due to Fasttrack

The problem is in Ben 10 we don't really have bluds like obvious known god tiers or mid tiers about that besides alien x they are usually scaling to each other which makes it harder to clarify like the show isn't some animes like having characters of power levels in obvious way you really need to put extra effort to make a list about who is the strongest or fastest on that honestly now stuff like Jetray and Aggregor gonna get massively hypersonic+/subsonic travel speed for their own space travel shit is which still weird lol

 

[GeneralSol16]

I’m gonna be honest, the fact that the tachyon bullshit was passed in the first place is a discredit to us. Like, Tachyons are inherently variable depending on how much energy is behind them, so the idea that galactic transportation would be the exact same as a gun is just double stupid.

Show me the exact clip where that's said in the show.

Tachyons particles are entirely theoretical irl, there are no rules to follow unlike other phenomens.
Tachyons, as average as those, are MFTL.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Tachyons, as average as those, are MFTL.

?????? Why should every Tachyon be MFTL/MFTL+? Was it stated in the show that every Tachyon is always the same speed??

 

[Lort15]

Lmao this thread is basically dead tho it's completed please stop arguing further about the same topics over and over again wait for speed blog to be made it would ofc take a while that the thread is forcing fans to evulate almost all speed feats in the existence of the show, honestly make a wiki collab thread it would allow you to discuss all feats/anti-feats in existence

 

[GeneralSol16]

?????? Why should every Tachyon be MFTL/MFTL+? Was it stated in the show that every Tachyon is always the same speed??

Because it's NEVER mentioned or even implied that they do? Making shit up isn't an argument and do not follow any prior evaluation method.

 

[Chariot190]

Show me the exact clip where that's said in the show.

Yeah not how this works.
I guess sound isn't sound speed either, light isn't light, why stop there, what makes a galaxy actually galaxy sized? Lightyears? Well a light year is defined by how fast light is and if these things can just not be how fast they're supposed to be, a light year can be any distance it wants too, so how is that going to effect the verse if all these things just vary from the standard?
Maybe things like pressure and more vary too, hell what about energy itself? Maybe it only takes 1 joule to blow up a planet in Ben 10 and everyone is just 11-A?

You now how this wiki works, we treat media to follow establish physics and rules by default, it's on the show to prove they don't, and if they don't, that's not a good thing, it's the worst thing possible even, as at that point the show clearly stops following physics and rules and becomes unquantifiable.

How do you think we index things things? Calc things? Etc.
By using reality as a basis and assuming they follow said rules, because otherwise there's nothing to index or calc and as such shouldn't even be on wiki.

Tachyons particles are entirely theoretical irl, there are no rules to follow unlike other phenomens.
Tachyons, as average as those, are MFTL.

You're legitimately going to be this verse's worst enemy if you keep it up with the "nothing counts none of it is real it's all fake" excuses, given it's almost certain by this point some sort of downgrade is going to happen and you're basically arguing all the fallback feats don't qualify as actual feats.
If you treat it as an actual tachyon, which is your best case here, then the "tachyons are theoretical so there are no rules, and average tachyons are MFTL" take is flat-out wrong dude, there is no "maybe", you're outright wrong and your excuse of it being theoretical doesn't change the fact that theory still has RULES.
The whole point is that a tachyon is a hypothetical particle that always moves faster than light, not a particle with some fixed "default super speed" beyond the floor of 1.0c+.

For an actual tachyon, the standard relation is E = mu*c^2 / sqrt(v^2/c^2 - 1)
with v > c.

That gives you 3 huge problems.

1. No such thing as an "average tachyon speed" by default.
"Tachyon" is a class label, not a fixed speed value.
"tachyons, as average as those, are MFTL" is just him as in that other dude and you pulling a number class out of thin air, actually calc it, there's quite literally no thing as an AVERAGE for them, energy and mass causes it to change up to infinitesimal amounts.

2. "Theoretical" does not mean "no rules".
It just means unconfirmed. There is still a math model tho.
Saying "there are no rules to follow" is the exact opposite of how this works, or ANY scientific theory works.

3. Actual tachyon behavior as a tachyon defined ruins your claim too.
For a tachyon, as v approaches c from above, E blows up toward infinity.
As v goes higher and higher, E drops toward 0.
So if you treat it as a real tachyon, then more energy does NOT mean faster the way people usually picture it.
It means the tachyon gets pushed closer to light speed from above.

The speed can vary with energy, you calc it, it's simple as.

Treating something as an actual tachyon only gives you FTL in general, it could be high, or it could be so close to 1c it's infinitely negligible.
It does NOT give you "MFTL by default", ever, there is no default to begin with.
It does NOT give you one standard speed for every tachyon device, they need to be calculated separately.
A transport system and a gun can absolutely launch tachyons at very diff speeds if the energies differ, which they most certainly do.
And if you really want to be strict, which, we do, the actual math is the very thing that ruins your "no rules" excuse in the first place.

Basically, "it's a tachyon" means it's a tachyon and those follow rules, rules you need to follow just like every thing else.

Anything past that needs actual values or stated in-verse behavior that somehow destroys any notion of it being based on the actual theory, and at that point why are we even indexing this verse if everything ever isn't quantifiable, stylized fiction, artistic choices, inconsistent, and doesn't follow physics whatsoever?

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Because it's NEVER mentioned or even implied that they do? Making shit up isn't an argument and do not follow any prior evaluation method.

You (or anyone else arguing this point) are the one(s) who has to prove that all Tachyons are the same. Like @Chariot190 said, Tachyon are only FTL at minimum with varying speeds depending on the Tachyon and there is no 'default Tachyon speed'.

I am willing to accept that the Tachyons in the calc could be that fast (MFTL).

However, making shit up is not an argument and does not follow any prior evaluation method, which is exactly what this "All Tachyons are the same speed" statement is - making shit up.

Unless, you can prove it with a statement from canonical Ben 10 material, in which case I will accept all Tachyons are MFTL by default.

 

[Firestorm808]

I actually agree with this. The downgrade does have enough votes currently to go through. However, the proper implementation needs to be accounted for, and given the length of the thread, I wouldn't mind going through that on a more focused one.

@Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus @Firestorm808 would you find this acceptable?

While I agree that corrections need to be made, proposing that "the verse should be downgraded back to Relativistic" is a very blanket approach.

The purpose of my scaling chain blog is to verify they consistency of combat speed feats and those that scale to them. We want to have reliable scaling chains. MFTL Combat Speeds do exist, but that doesn't mean everyone scales to them. I prefer we treat the matter with a fine tooth comb than a sledgehammer.