Ben 10 MFTL+ Anti Feats

[Reiner04]

When the animation keeps showing them struggling against bullets (to use a random example), maybe they actually aren't FTL

The anti-feat in particular that brought regarding jetray is specifically regarding flight speed. Thats why i said its an animation inconsistency and not his actually speed. Dude is one of fastest flier in the verse.

Then maybe, just maybe, that high speed only applies to flying like many have been trying to say? Hmmm...

 

[Reiner04]

That entire paragraph that i wrote is about jetray, to be more clear.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

The anti-feat in particular that brought regarding jetray is specifically regarding flight speed. Thats why i said its an animation inconsistency and not his actually speed. Dude is one of fastest flier in the verse.

Don't hyperfocus on one part of my comment. I am not talking about Jetray alone. I am trying to explain the general procedure we should apply to properly say X or Y. Good thing Jetray has other feats, tho.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

That entire paragraph that i wrote is about jetray, to be more clear.

And that's an issue, because I am not

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

wouldn't this give XLR8 "varies" rating then, because he has the ability to ramp up his speeds

What's the varies mechanism?

Why would Ben not choose to go all out with his speed in that particular instance? (Specially since not doing so got him caught) Now you are introducing more possibilities that also need to be accounted for.

Edit: also, that varies thing makes XLR8 essentially unusable for scaling, since now we can never know if he's at his top. And that also gets trumped on by the Ben 10k stuff that was brought up earlier.

 

[Reiner04]

And that's an issue, because I am not

Smh... robo replied with jetray flight speed inconsistency so i told him all that. If its about some different character then i don't even know about if there are some inconsistencies.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Smh... robo replied with jetray flight speed inconsistency so i told him all that. If its about some different character then i don't even know about if there are some inconsistencies.

Dude... It's not about specific characters. It's about the entire practice of "well, speeds aren't always shown consistently, so we should disregard certain things"

Second time I've had to mention this.

 

[DemonicDude]

What's the varies mechanism?

Why would Ben not choose to go all out with his speed in that particular instance?

I'm not talking about in any particular instance that is mentioned in this thread at all. I'm just looking at it from a general point of view:
Massively Faster than Light+ is a very big tier and you would need consistent feeds to qualify for this tier clearly vsbattle has problem with him "CONSISTENTLY" being one specific speed tier then a reasonable solution would be:
To just take one of his lowest end speed feats form Classic and highest end speed feats from Omniverse (4th series) just put a varies rating.
If that solution works of course.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I'm not talking about in any particular instance that is mentioned in this thread at all. I'm just looking at it from a general point of view:
Massively Faster than Light+ is a very big tier and you would need consistent feeds to qualify for this tier clearly vsbattle has problem with him "CONSISTENTLY" being one specific speed tier then a reasonable solution would be:
To just take one of his lowest end speed feats form Classic and highest end speed feats from Omniverse (4th series) just put a varies rating.
If that solution works of course.

It doesn't. That's why I'm asking stuff. For us to apply a Varies rating, there needs to be a canon mechanism that makes his speed variable (think the various Flashes and how much of the speed force they use, for a practical example). XLR8 limiting itself is not a valid mechanism.

And again, that's a scaling nightmare that makes things infinitely more difficult for you guys.


Edit: I will go to sleep for the night, so won't be able to comment again til later on. I will wait for Firestorm's findings, but would genuinely advocate, if we want to definitively conclude that this verse has a consistent rating, that every speed related stuff throughout the verse should be brought and analyzed. This is why I hate chainscaling so much, makes things so unnecessarily complicated

 

[Reiner04]

I remember an episode where XLR8 could be seen as a blur on an Earth camera. That's a pretty darn good antifeat right there. The entire episode only worked because he got caught iirc, so there's narrative intent right there. Those are the low showings you need to look.

XLR8’s speed in that episode was higher than many of his showings throughout the series (XLR8 speed has consistently been reacted to by various characters who, in turn, are comparable to trio), Although i think XLR8 travel feats and Anti-feats both needs to be put on table to see which one are more so we can conclude atleast travel speed part for speedsters in the verse. Speedsters in the show have occasionally shown such spikes, like Fasttrack reaching MFTL+ speeds to save a Plumbers instructor from a nuclear fusion grenade, or Helen keeping up with Vilgax’s heat vision, which is faster than his gauntlet lasers, in his own words.

Helen: I told you to watch out for the laser beams (after saving cooper from laser beam)

Vilgax: You are fast. But are you faster than this? (Attacks with his homing heat vision which tags Helen eventually)

XLR8 speed has been reacted to many times in the show, by many whose speed is comparable to trio. XLR8, if even considered nowhere near light speed. The series contains numerous instances of characters reacting to lasers, which were shown to reflect or refract. Even if we assume for a moment that these lasers aren’t MFTL+, characters still consistently dodge them. In that context, failing to react to XLR8’s speed would stand out as an inconsistency rather than smth reliable, unless ofc, somehow verse has more anti-feats to even consider laser dodging feats as inconsistent, which is highly unlikely afaik (but again, we should sort out the travel speed part regarding speedsters first).

For us to apply a Varies rating, there needs to be a canon mechanism that makes his speed variable (think the various Flashes and how much of the speed force they use, for a practical example).

XLR8 manipulates friction to go super speed. If that works.

 

[DemonicDude]

Helen keeping up with Vilgax’s heat vision,

heat vision? I thought it was lasers?
is there any official guide book or Cartoon Network merchandise information card that tells us whether it is heat vision or lasers?

 

[DemonicDude]

@Reiner04 I am pretty sure Even if it is a basic energy beam and not lasers you can still somehow calculate it right?

 

[Reiner04]

heat vision? I thought it was lasers?
is there any hotel guide book or Cartoon Network merchandise information card that tells us whether it is heat vision or lasers?

I mean, i call them heat vision since uhhh similarity with superman... coming from the eyes... they are also lasers tho. Call it whatever you wish, they don't have official name.

@Reiner04 I am pretty sure Even if it is a basic energy beam and not lasers you can still somehow calculate it right?

We don't have any known quantity about them, so no.

 

[DemonicDude]

We don't have any known quantity about them, so no.

so there is no method on vsbattle to calc an Energy beam or someone dodging it, There no way. I'll ask some very knowledgeable calc members about this.

 

[Firestorm808]

For simplicity, I'll be plotting all levels of legitimate combat speed feats over time so we can check for consistency.

 

[Saqphire]

.

Yo you got any thoughts on this line of thinking below ? Basically I don’t agree the humans in the verse should scale to Feedback and/or other aliens in C/R speed because they have no accompanying feats of their own + their scaling comes from chain scaling that breaks narrative. They do have relativistic showings

The aliens that have feats and actual comparability to Feedback should scale, not fringe chain scales that break the portrayals of the show itself. A bunch of the light and tachyon dodging feats from the literal humans would be inconsistent if they had MFTL+ combat speed rating cuz then they'd just statue those and then there'd be a whole different story from what we've seen.

And again, I completely disagree with Malware's combat speed being comparable to Feedback's travel speed here; it would be at best attack speed

 

[Reiner04]

they have no accompanying feats of their own

In the episode Ben 10: Alien Force, Season 2 Episode 4, "Don’t Fear the Repo" (also known as "Vreedle Vreedle"), Ben and Kevin travels to a planet named Kohtukoda, while travelling they suddenly come across asteroid belt and reacts to the asteroids and dodges them.

 

[Saqphire]

In the episode Ben 10: Alien Force, Season 2 Episode 4, "Don’t Fear the Repo" (also known as "Vreedle Vreedle"), Ben and Kevin travels to a planet named Kohtukoda, while travelling they suddenly come across asteroid belt and reacts to the asteroids and dodges them.

That’s travel speed with a ship… that’s like saying fighter jet pilots got Supersonic+ reaction speed cuz they can fly and quickly manuver one at max speed.

On top of that, you’re assuming the ship retains the top speed when they turn / the asteroids fly at MFTL+ speed here but you’d have somewhat of an argument if they weren’t in the ship tho

Also this still follows under the same issues that I brought up about the Aggregator argument

 

[Reiner04]

That’s travel speed with a ship… that’s like saying fighter jet pilots got Supersonic+ reaction speed cuz they can fly one at max speed

We don't give jets travel speed to pilots, pilots needs to react to sudden obstacles at that speed and yet, the total speed would be lower than the jet speed, before they even react, jet would likely crash to bits and will be blown off. At MFTL+ speed, such calculation of reaction speeds aren't required since difference would be negligible. And yes, we literally do give pilots reaction speed if they can react to sudden obstacles at MFTL+ speed.

Also this still follows under the same issues that I brought up about the Aggregator argument

Agree to disagree.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

XLR8 manipulates friction to go super speed. If that works.

Depends how it's elaborated on. I don't remember him being that variable at all mid combat, for example.

XLR8 speed has been reacted to many times in the show, by many whose speed is comparable to trio. XLR8, if even considered nowhere near light speed. The series contains numerous instances of characters reacting to lasers, which were shown to reflect or refract. Even if we assume for a moment that these lasers aren’t MFTL+, characters still consistently dodge them.

That's consistency for relativistic (assuming these lasers are taken as legit)

Overall, failure to react to XLR8 when it's plot relevant should be taken on a higher regard than random fights, but that's definitely not standard on the wiki, so meh.

The entire point reminds the same: These inconsistencies serve to show how the overall chain scaling is flawed when taken at face value. Plot relevant moments have them fail to react to XLR8, then suddenly they can react to other stuff that scales to XLR8...

 

[Saqphire]

We don't give jets travel speed to pilots, pilots needs to react to sudden obstacles at that speed and yet, the total speed would be lower than the jet speed, before they even react, jet would likely crash to bits and will be blown off.

The clip doesn’t show the asteroids being sudden at all, they literally get a warning that a cluster of asteroids were in their way before they showed up on screen here and then Kevin turns the ship accordingly. Not only is this just blatant aim dodging, our own flight-to-reaction speed standards for space feats literally speaks against this

Simply being able to stop accurately at the target destination does typically not qualify, as it can be spotted from a large distance to make preparations to stop or the character could even slow down before reaching the destination, assuming we only know the average speed with which they moved.

The typical example of such cases of travel/flight speed that doesn't necessarily scale to reactions is space travel. As space is incredibly empty there are virtually no objects one has to navigate around between destinations. Just flying in a straight line from A to B would be safe. At the same time the typical destinations, such as stars and planets, are so large that they can easily be seen from millions of kilometers away. As a result a character would only need reactions equal to a minuscule fraction of their travel speed to perform a safe and precise landing on them.

At MFTL+ speed, such calculation of reaction speeds aren't required since difference would be negligible. And yes, we literally do give pilots reaction speed if they can react to sudden obstacles at MFTL+ speed.

That’s only partly true if they reacted to the sudden appearance of asteroids from a point blank range and the ship was going at max speed or the asteroids were going at MFTL+ speed, neither of which was proven here. They see the asteroids from way far away too before engaging, which doesn’t need the difference of the travel speed of the ship compared to the reaction speed of the pilot to be ”negligible” at all

Agree to disagree.

Uhuh. Let’s see what Lephyr has to say

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

The clip doesn’t show the asteroids being sudden at all, they literally get a warning that a cluster of asteroids were in their way before they showed up on screen here and then Kevin turns the ship accordingly. Not only is this just blatant aim dodging, our own flight-to-reaction speed standards for space feats literally speaks against this




That’s only partly true if they reacted to the sudden appearance of asteroids from a point blank range and the ship was going at max speed or the asteroids were going at MFTL+ speed, neither of which was proven here. They see the asteroids from way far away too before engaging, which doesn’t need the difference of the travel speed of the ship compared to the reaction speed of the pilot to be ”negligible” at all

I would agree with this, yeah.

 

[Robo432343]

that every speed related stuff throughout the verse should be brought and analyzed. This is why I hate chainscaling so much, makes things so unnecessarily complicated

These are all the Ben 10 speed calcs i found

XLR8 reacts to a beam of light: 3.26E-01c (Relativistic)

XLR8 plays baseball: Mach 136.11 (Massively Hypersonic)

XLR8 saves Gwen from being struck by lightning - Mach 39.59 (High Hypersonic)

XLR8 creates a tornado of water - Mach 0.332 (Subsonic)

XLR8 runs around mutated cows - Mach 0.288 (Subsonic)

Stinkfly flies around the world: 0.0328c (Sub-Relativistic)

Stinkfly outmanoeuvres bullets - Mach 0.619 (Subsonic+)

Stinkfly dodges bullets - Mach 0.167 (Subsonic)

Ultimate Echo Echo throws the contained explosion to space - Mach 0.1581 (Subsonic) - 0.1269c (Relativistic)

Negative Echo Echo dodges Brainstorm's electricity - Mach 3.99 (Supersonic+) - Mach 3,153.73 (Massively Hypersonic+)

Fasttrack outspeeding a Nuclear fusion grenade during mid-explosion - MFTL (this calc is incorrect but thats for another thread)

Chromastone flies to Petropia - MFTL+

Kevin dodges P'andor's radiation - 1.37c FTL

Colossus Kevin dodges Chromastone's light beam - 0.1263c (Relativistic)

D'Void reacts to and blocks Chromastone's light beam - 0.1234 (Relativistic)

Upchuck intercepts Chromastone's light beam - 0.0593c (Sub-Relativistic+)

Helen saves Cooper from the Ruby Ray of Ulo - 0.1321c (Relativistic)

Vilgax flies to Petropia - MFTL+

Vilgax jumps into Stinkfly - Mach 0.146 (Subsonic)

Way Big throws Vilgax into space - Mach 145.77 (Massively Hypersonic)

Conquest Ray - MFTL+

Feedback outspeeding a Tachyon cannon within short time: MFTL+

Four Arms dodges a laser beam - Mach 1.99 (Supersonic) - Mach 3.41 (Supersonic+)

Four Arms throws Animo's Mammoth into a wall - Mach 0.289 (Subsonic)

Animo's Mutant Bird flies to the Washington Monument - Mach 0.54 (Subsonic+)

SAM creates a thunderstorm - Mach 2.46 (Supersonic)

Yenaldooshi dodges a tranquilizer dart - Mach 0.125 (Subsonic)

Yenaldooshi causes a thunderstorm - Mach 11.95 (Hypersonic+)

Zs'Skayr dodges light - 0.1223c (Relativistic)

Zs'Skayr dodges another beam of light - 0.3522c (Relativistic)

The Kraken throws Four Arms across the lake - Mach 0.165 (Subsonic)

Ultimate Aggregor flies to another galaxy - MFTL+

Jetray flies halfway across a galaxy - MFTL+

 

[Saqphire]

I would agree with this, yeah.

My goat. To put it further into perspective, Human Ben who can apparently react to MFTL+ travel speed cannot react to Cash bullying him at normal speed


While this may be just PIS, the point is that it's far more egregious to say an MFTL+ reaction speed character would get caught lackin' like that instead of a Relativistic one because the difference between Relativistic and normal speed is far less than intergalactic MFTL+ and relativistic speed

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

My goat. To put it further into perspective, Human Ben who can apparently react to MFTL+ travel speed cannot react to Cash bullying him at normal speed


While this may be just PIS, the point is that it's far more egregious to say an MFTL+ reaction speed character would get caught lackin' like that instead of a Relativistic one because the difference between Relativistic and normal speed is far less than intergalactic MFTL+ and relativistic speed

Naaaaah, that one ain't it. Is contradictory to both. Unless you are prepared to go the distance for a gag scene, better to leave it as a gag and move on.

 

[Saqphire]

Naaaaah, that one ain't it. Is contradictory to both. Unless you are prepared to go the distance for a gag scene, better to leave it as a gag and move on.

Fairs. But you do see my point I hope

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Fairs. But you do see my point I hope

Look for him failing to react to falling objects mid fight, that shows the problem way better

 

[Saqphire]

Look for him failing to react to falling objects mid fight, that shows the problem way better

Good idea. @Robo432343, let's get to work

 

[Robo432343]

there are so many scenes where ben is caught off-guard by falling rubble or debris bruh

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

there are so many scenes where ben is caught off-guard by falling rubble or debris bruh

There you go

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

XLR8 reacts to a beam of light: 3.26E-01c (Relativistic)

Quick question, @Firestorm808
What makes this light fit our SoL standards? To have everything laid out.

Stinkfly flies around the world: 0.0328c (Sub-Relativistic)

This calc goes brrrr. It was stated in the episode that Stinkfly needed 4 hours and 55 minutes to fly around the world.

If this is true, that's a big oof right there. Someone should verify this.

Ultimate Echo Echo throws the contained explosion to space - Mach 0.1581 (Subsonic) - 0.1269c (Relativistic)

Another method would be to assume that Ultimate Echo Echo threw the explosion as far away as the planet.

You what

Negative Echo Echo dodges Brainstorm's electricity - Mach 3.99 (Supersonic+) - Mach 3,153.73 (Massively Hypersonic+)

What makes Brainstorm's electricity fit our standards? Again, purely to have everything laid out.

Helen saves Cooper from the Ruby Ray of Ulo - 0.1321c (Relativistic)

What makes this fit our SoL standards? (Notice how I'm not questioning Chromastone; that mofo legit is said to shoot ultraviolet light, he's as solid as it gets)

SAM creates a thunderstorm - Mach 2.46 (Supersonic)

This doesn't scale to anyone anyways, so meh.

Yenaldooshi causes a thunderstorm - Mach 11.95 (Hypersonic+)

Wouldn't scale to anyone anyways.

Zs'Skayr dodges light - 0.1223c (Relativistic)

Zs'Skayr dodges another beam of light - 0.3522c (Relativistic)

Didn't Ghost Freak legit ong evaded natural light? Also:

Artificial light still moves at the same speed as natural light

Only if it comes from a realistic enough source. Tho given how Zs'Skayr entire thing is being vulnerable to sunlight, this one is probably fine anyways.

-

So barring all of the above, the seemingly immediately applicable ones imo show...

XLR8 plays baseball: Mach 136.11 (Massively Hypersonic)

XLR8 saves Gwen from being struck by lightning - Mach 39.59 (High Hypersonic)

XLR8 creates a tornado of water - Mach 0.332 (Subsonic)

XLR8 runs around mutated cows - Mach 0.288 (Subsonic)

Stinkfly outmanoeuvres bullets - Mach 0.619 (Subsonic+)

Stinkfly dodges bullets - Mach 0.167 (Subsonic)

Fasttrack outspeeding a Nuclear fusion grenade during mid-explosion - MFTL (this calc is incorrect but thats for another thread)

Kevin dodges P'andor's radiation - 1.37c FTL

Colossus Kevin dodges Chromastone's light beam - 0.1263c (Relativistic)

D'Void reacts to and blocks Chromastone's light beam - 0.1234 (Relativistic)

Upchuck intercepts Chromastone's light beam - 0.0593c (Sub-Relativistic+)

Vilgax jumps into Stinkfly - Mach 0.146 (Subsonic)

Feedback outspeeding a Tachyon cannon within short time: MFTL+

Four Arms dodges a laser beam - Mach 1.99 (Supersonic) - Mach 3.41 (Supersonic+)

Four Arms throws Animo's Mammoth into a wall - Mach 0.289 (Subsonic)

Animo's Mutant Bird flies to the Washington Monument - Mach 0.54 (Subsonic+)

SAM creates a thunderstorm - Mach 2.46 (Supersonic)

Yenaldooshi dodges a tranquilizer dart - Mach 0.125 (Subsonic)

Zs'Skayr dodges light - 0.1223c (Relativistic)

Zs'Skayr dodges another beam of light - 0.3522c (Relativistic)

The Kraken throws Four Arms across the lake - Mach 0.165 (Subsonic)

(Until the Fasttrack one gets discussed properly, I will count it)

Hmmmm

The following are Flight or I don't think scales to anyone as no one seems to dodge or show anything towards it (specifically talking about Conquest Ray for that last part; also, Way Big's strictly attack speed)

Chromastone flies to Petropia - MFTL+

Vilgax flies to Petropia - MFTL+

Way Big throws Vilgax into space - Mach 145.77 (Massively Hypersonic)

Conquest Ray - MFTL+

Ultimate Aggregor flies to another galaxy - MFTL+

Jetray flies halfway across a galaxy - MFTL+

When shown in this way, a pattern definitely starts to emerge huh

 

[Chariot190]

I wasn't getting [Pinged], what happened

 

[Saqphire]

What makes this light fit our SoL standards? To have everything laid out.

The supporters have repeatedly said that they don't even bother trying to make the lasers fit into the SOL standards since the scaling is MFTL+ anyway, so they're just saying "the laser is MFTL+ duhhh"

Lasers aren't anti-feats.

A laser from alien technology specifically designed to deal with such aliens, particularly those comparable to Ben. There is also precedent in the verse for lasers reaching MFTL speeds.

 

[Robo432343]

The supporters have repeatedly said that they don't even bother trying to make the lasers fit into the SOL standards since the scaling is MFTL+ anyway, so they're just saying "the laser is MFTL+ duhhh"

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Probably because the last message you saw was deleted. It causes a glitch where notifications just stop. Forums weird like that.

I wasn't getting [Pinged], what happened

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

The supporters have repeatedly said that they don't even bother trying to make the lasers fit into the SOL standards since the scaling is MFTL+ anyway, so they're just saying "the laser is MFTL+ duhhh"

That's definitely unfortunate.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Anyone that poste another derailing meme will get threadbanned. You have been warned.

 

[Saqphire]

That's definitely unfortunate.

Do you agree with that line of reasoning? That lasers in Ben 10 is just MFTL+ so laser anti-feats don't count ?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Do you agree with that line of reasoning? That lasers in Ben 10 is just MFTL+ so laser anti-feats don't count ?

We getting fished out here, smh

I think my analysis speaks for itself lol. The fact I am questioning their entire legitimacy shows I don't follow that logic. If the only way to get MFTL is through scaling to flight, that right there shows a big problem with consistency.

Edit: Though to be noted, I did accept two feats currently that shows MFTL and up. It's just, relativistic seems way more consistently shown in combat scenarios (and the plethora of subsonic feats are extremely casual stuff that don't exactly give them a cap by the way they are presented)

Edit 2: Though there is notable exception, though it currently looks outlier-y compared to the rest: Kid Gwen seemingly would've been unable to dodge lightning without help from XLR8

 

[Saqphire]

We getting fished out here, smh

I think my analysis speaks for itself lol. The fact I am questioning their entire legitimacy shows I don't follow that logic. If the only way to get MFTL is through scaling to flight, that right there shows a big problem with consistency.

Lmfao fair enough then. I also thought that was just ridiculous here