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So following ur logic, just scale the MFTL+ feats to the Aliens and not the supposed regular humans?
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Ben 10 MFTL+ Anti Feats
- Thread starter Robo432343
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Ben 10k went to fight likes of Maltruant bare fist w/o transforming by choice. I don't understand how they are regular humans arguement even works.
Saqphire
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That only makes Aggregor MFTL+ in travel speed (assuming the Rustbucket calc is valid), but we don't even know if Aggregor is going at full speed in the scene where he moves towards the Perplexahedron, which would be the speed Human Ben and Gwen reacts to from a distance away. Aka the only mid-flight speed we're seeing is him after finishing his flight, which doesn't necessarily need to be the same as his top flight speed.
Furthermore, them reacting to Aggregor's speed from a distance also skews their reaction speed, similar to how I can watch a vehicle move at it's full speed from a distance, that wouldn't mean my reaction speed is now plane/train level (Subsonic-Supersonic btw). I don't see them react to Aggregor directly here.
The aliens that have feats and actual comparability to Feedback should scale, not fringe chain scales that break the portrayals of the show itself. A bunch of the light and tachyon dodging feats from the literal humans would be inconsistent if they had MFTL+ combat speed rating cuz then they'd just statue those and then there'd be a whole different story from what we've seen.
And again, I completely disagree with Malware's combat speed being comparable to Feedback's travel speed here; it would be at best attack speed.
Not to be that guy, but this is literally the case for Fire Force and DCEU.
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Anyways, I won't engage in circular arguement to avoid derailing and wait out myself b4 telling others to do so.
Coming to my point. There are several precedents across different profiles where, if Character A engages in a fight with Character B whose flight speed is comparable to their reaction and combat speed, it has been used as a basis for scaling, even when the speed during that fight was not explicitly specified. In other words, this applies in cases where characters have fought each other, even if the exact speed during those encounters was never clearly stated.
Doomsday's reaction and combatt speed of DC extended Universe scales to Superman who has his combatt and flight speed equal.
Another example would be Superman of DC Universe whose combatt and reaction speed scales to those who can keep up with his flight speed.
vsbattles.fandom.com
BIlly Butcher after taking compount V variation, fights homelander at undefined speed (there was no speed feats, they just fought regulary), and resulted in scaling to his speed. Homelander most speed feats comes from his flight speed feats.
Invincible who scales to Nolan for fighting against Viltrumite who in turn scales to Nolan's flight speed which seems to be applicable to his combatt and reaction speed too.
Ryuga from Beyblade Metal seems to be same since he scales to gingka by reacting to his attacks at different instances, who can travelled to different galaxy.
Note: Its not that this is me arguing based on whataboutism, it is me clarifying that there has been several precedents across the profiles incase one has been wondering if we have ever done something similar for other franchises.
Coming to my point. There are several precedents across different profiles where, if Character A engages in a fight with Character B whose flight speed is comparable to their reaction and combat speed, it has been used as a basis for scaling, even when the speed during that fight was not explicitly specified. In other words, this applies in cases where characters have fought each other, even if the exact speed during those encounters was never clearly stated.
Doomsday's reaction and combatt speed of DC extended Universe scales to Superman who has his combatt and flight speed equal.
Another example would be Superman of DC Universe whose combatt and reaction speed scales to those who can keep up with his flight speed.
Superman (DC Universe)
Superman (Kal-El / Clark Kent) is the last son of Krypton and the adoptive son of Kansas farmers Jonathan and Martha Kent. After embracing his alien heritage, he safeguards Metropolis as the planet's most powerful superhero while living incognito as a Daily Planet reporter. Three years into his...
vsbattles.fandom.com
BIlly Butcher after taking compount V variation, fights homelander at undefined speed (there was no speed feats, they just fought regulary), and resulted in scaling to his speed. Homelander most speed feats comes from his flight speed feats.
Invincible who scales to Nolan for fighting against Viltrumite who in turn scales to Nolan's flight speed which seems to be applicable to his combatt and reaction speed too.
Ryuga from Beyblade Metal seems to be same since he scales to gingka by reacting to his attacks at different instances, who can travelled to different galaxy.
Note: Its not that this is me arguing based on whataboutism, it is me clarifying that there has been several precedents across the profiles incase one has been wondering if we have ever done something similar for other franchises.
Rustbucket (which is by statement is FTL in the outspace as was told by Kevin in the episode name "Frame") failed to catch up to Aggregor and he was too fast for it. I don't think one need anymore implication than this that Aggregor was literally MFTL+ in the scene, aside from very point that how weird it is to assume he suddenly dropped his speed just so Ben and Kevin could react to him. Sounds weird but i will rather not extend this discussion further than it already has for now and wait for firestorm's blog.
Saqphire
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All of those examples should be nuked. It's a bad precedent
I meant his speed when flying intergalactic distances =/= the speed when he flies near the Perplexahedron, we know this cuz the Rustbucket and Aggregor's speeds on the radar are similar and the ship was just cruising the cube at that point.
Rustbucket beign stated to be FTL in outer space doesn't mean it has a minimum speed of FTL either (unless you're gonna say them cruising and conversating was at MFTL+ speeds too). We also gotta account for acceleration; when the trio was chasing Aggregor, they had to have gone through a certain acceleration first; Aggregor outspeeding them just means his accel is higher at that moment, but that doesn't mean either object went at the peak of their acceleration and thus maximum velocity
And Aggregor being faster than the ship makes him MFTL+ at his max acceleration, but that doesn't upscale their reactions because factors nerf how onlookers percieve someone's true speed. It isn't a reliable factor is my whole point but yeah sure, let's wait on his blog
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Dear, they are following the standard laid down in the speed page regarding relation between travel and reaction speed.
And about powerscaling scaling via enging in fights, with no feat or AP specified has been discussed in previous threads too:
Its a rule here that if the guy1 is seen comparable to guy2 in a combatt then he will have all comparable statistics to the guy2. Its not even first thing happening for Ben 10 only.
An Unspoken/Unwritten Wiki Standard?
So in this thread, according to one of our staff members (Shadowbokunohero), we and I quote "also based Wiki standards we assume they they using the potency of their base stat unless specified or greater context is given." When the **** was this standard established? I don't recall this...vsbattles.com
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MFTL+ reaction and combat speed seems acceptable based on the feats. However, I won’t comment on the scaling chain and will leave that to be determined based on anti-feats and overall consistency regarding their combat and reaction speed.
Saqphire
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You mean this?
Cuz all of those examples have the unproven assumption that the flight speed users are flying at top speed/acceleration compared to the reaction speed shmucks which was my problem in the first place with the Aggregor argument. Plus the fact that again, reacting to a certain speed =/= you scale to the exact same speed. This applies to the same user as well; just cuz Homelander can fly at a certain speed, that doesn't mean his reactions are 1:1
Furthermore, the insane travel speed feats are the ones in space. Unless Aggregor was dodging asteroids or performing complex maneuvers at MFTL+ speeds while the trio were fighting him, the policy dictates we treat his speed as simply travel speed. And no, him being uncatchable to the Rustbucket doesn't prove that because the Rustbucket's speed isn't necessarily FTL at that point; it still requires acceleration from cruising speed
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Not the best example since The Boys is going to get downgraded
Funny thing is that, as the ratings/justifications currently are, everyone might as well scale to viltrumite's MFTL+. I made this CRT to tackle that tho it's currently on hold
tbf it'd be pretty useless to look for Translucent flying at Mach 1.5 if everything looks like a blur
Saqphire
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Not really, it's still plausible because of the second sentence in the policy
Stopping to look for Translucent is literally all Homelander did.
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This is in reference to space travel, something which is functionally different from his regular movement (terrain travel speed & combat speed), so I'm unsure how relevant it is.
I don't know how this is a speed anti-feat, the purpose of Ben 10K is that he ONLY does hero work 24/7 hence why he has no spare time - not due to him being too slow.
This one's fine.
It's coming from a technologically enhanced, sentient stormcloud that shoots purple lightning that's able to freely move around and act as a beam. This is not typical lightning lmfao.
Same as above.
Something being "FTL" isn't really a limitation. With statements like "faster than sound" we tend to assume it's only supersonic - maybe hypersonic - because if it was significantly greater than sound they'd use other measuring sticks to compare it to, but with "faster than light" there is no greater measuring stick for us to assume it's not FTL+ or higher.
He got blinded my a magic spell, not natural light.
A truck was thrown at him by something with tier 4 scaling, disingenuous to word this as "he got blitzed by a truck".
This one's mostly fine, though remember it's a futuristic tech gun which artificially emits light with the specific intention to combat beings like Zs'Skayr, so if MFTL+ has greater consistency I don't see the issue in saying the gun is using an amplified artificial light.
Lasers have no speed cap in fiction.
This wasn't a standard missile but one made by a super genius with the intention to outspeed Ben's aliens.
Why does something being powered by electricity cap its speed? This isn't a site standard.
In the clip they literally outspeed the black hole massively, they almost instantaneously fly out of focus whilst the black hole is slowly expanding and then later blitz off into the background before the black hole reaches the frame - if you calced this they'd be hundreds of times faster than it, and the black hole began expanding before they even got into the Time Cycles so where's the "head start"? Do black holes even have a standard expansion rate? Do real black h
MFTL+ characters need to use amps to travel at a speed greater than their accepted MFTL+ value.... therefore they must not be MFTL+?
Already responded to the Time Beast stuff
Already responded to Malware. Also, this is a different Malware, an incomplete Malware from when Ben was 10 years old lacked FTL capability, since then he augmented his DNA sequence to amplify his abilities and received several amps. Why equate these two versions?
Lasers aren't anti-feats.
The "non-FTL feat" in question was travelling across the galaxy in a few minutes.
In the episode itself he says he's going light speed, script is likely just outdated here. I'm unsure if this would even be an anti-feat, though, since he's intending to use Hyperspace travel and not his own speed.
These were the character sheets made when Ben 10: Alien Force was still called Ben 10: Hero Generation, they'd just be outdated if newer and primary sources conflict.
Another and later guidebook says Jetray flies faster than the speed of light, the guidebooks consistently put different heights for Way Big, they consistently give different results for XLR8's speed, they're just generally inconsistent for this sort of thing and only secondary sources to the primary material.
Read above.
Same thing as above applies here.
This thread was already applied to the verse and new calcs were made iirc.
I responded to this already when you used the feat as an anti-feat, it's a magic-based projectile.
You quote the same scene as the one being calced to try and dispute the calc? Being outpaced by something doesn't contradict you scaling to 35% of its speed. I also already addressed this one.
Not aimdodging if Kevin moves after it was fired + P'andor is shooting out radiation which is lightspeed. This is explained on the calc page iirc.
Already addressed the anti-feat, and the presence of the anti-feat doesn't inherently refute a calc of another scene as you need to explain why the anti-feat is more consistent than the calc.
Them being travel speed doesn't change anything, most of your anti-feats were also travel speed.
None of your anti-feats were MHS or relativistic, they were subsonic to supersonic, so why the arbitrary ranking here? If the anti-feats are more valid than the feats then use their proposed speed end, if that speed is also inconsistent then don't use the anti-feats, you can't have your cake and eat it too.
If you have 2 data points, one suggesting the number of cake eaters in a town is 1,000,000 whilst another suggests its 500,000,000, why would we arbitrarily assume it's 250,000,000? It has to either be 1 million or 500 million.
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So the OP's argument is even worse than I thought, wow
Shadowslaya!
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Shadowslaya!
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Shadowslaya!
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Malware not having FTL capability overall is far more consistent with the show. Trying to limit it to space travel only sounds like cope to keep this messed up scaling chain. If Malware genuinely had MFTL+ combat reactions, they wouldn't go out of their way to make a statement like this
No, the reason Ben 10k says he doesn't have time for himself is because he's always patrolling the planet. Literally says, "Future Ben stays XLR8 so he can patrol the whole plane 24/7. If XLR8 regularly ran at MFTL+ speeds he would have all the time he needs but he constantly has to patrol the planet
If the lightning isn't even real lightning if its purple and behaves like a beam like you said then thats literally makes your MFTL+ argument fall apart even further. It doesn't make any difference if its real lightning or not because either way it contradicts Gwen being MFTL+ in reactions. Trying to argue it’s not real lightning doesn’t save Gwen being MFTL+ it makes it worse. And if you try to treat it as real lightning then Gwen struggling to dodge it contradicts it either way. You can see here a bunch of regular people were able able to run a fair distance before it hits the ground
No? When a character says something is faster than light, the safest and most consistent interpretation is to assume its around baseline FTL... not MFTL or arbitrarily higher. Using your logic any FTL statement could be stretched to millions or billions of times FTL with zero evidence which makes the statement meaningless. We're not taking Brook's "The creature appears to be moving faster than light itself" to ******* MFTL+
Again i don't know why you say stuff like this as if it makes the case any better
Saying 'lasers have no speed cap in fiction' makes it worse for you again because it means you can’t even assume assume they’re light-speed either. Under our standards on the Laser/Light Beam Dodging Feats page, these laser blasts are not treated as light-speed by default. They need proof that it behaves like like real light and If that proof isn’t even there in the first then they’re just basic speed projectiles. You're constantly stuck in a contradiction where if the laser is light speed, then XLR8 failing to dodge it is an anti feat but if its not confirmed light speed, then you can’t even use it to scale it to SoL.
Again this doesn't help you unless you want to argue that this missile was travelling at MFTL+ speeds which is silly
Ah yes a laser, something massively below MFTL+ in speed and Ben's aliens who are supposed to be many times faster than lasers failing to dodge it is not an anti feat
Again this makes it worse for you. If the episode explicitly says he's going light speed then don't try to justify MFTL+ for Jetray. The feat itself is also pretty bad as we literally see regular people reacting to his takeoff and has an entire conversation when he flies into the stratosphere. The entire scene heavily implies that this is something he cannot just do regularly.The "non-FTL feat" in question was travelling across the galaxy in a few minutes.
In the episode itself he says he's going light speed, script is likely just outdated here. I'm unsure if this would even be an anti-feat, though, since he's intending to use Hyperspace travel and not his own speed.
These were the character sheets made when Ben 10: Alien Force was still called Ben 10: Hero Generation, they'd just be outdated if newer and primary sources conflict.
So these MFTL+ combat speed aliens can't dodge basic magic projectiles is what you're saying but don't want to say.
????
Kevin was aimdodging you can visibly see it
Yeah maybe because most of the calcs on the verse page are travel speed???
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What Rosa is saying that it wouldn't be aim dodging if Kevin couldn't moved out of laser's path after it was shot, he was still in the screen, but he wasn't in the screen when laser landed on ground. So he still reacted to the lasers speed itself. He said it quite very clearly:
Alien technology in the verse is far beyond human technology. It’s worth noting that the tech used by the Plumbers or the Incursions is among the best available and can rival various Ben 10 characters and aliens likes of Vilgax. As such, the speed of these weapons can be considered comparable to the attack speeds of characters with MFTL+ capabilities. For example, attacks like lightning or energy blasts from an MFTL+ character would naturally scale to their overall combat and reaction speed.
We literally have Conquest Ray and Techyon canon like weapons as example that proves how Alien Techs/lasers in the verse ain't normal.
You first need to understand what certain person is saying before you even proceed to counter them.
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This point was addressed before even by me but you seem to be unable to read it for some reason
500000000000000000000000 x The Speed of Light is still "faster than light" in physics terms, so it cannot be used as a contradiction at all (In fact "MFTL" is a fictional term made up by the powerscaling fandom, which writers will never take into account)
Being blinded by light doesn't prove anything. Are you trying to fool someone?
If they are "basic speed projectile", how can you be so sure they cap below light speed. Also these are clearly advanced Alien tech
You failed to address this part of the argument (or maybe you ignored it)
Is there a specific speed cap for those lasers too?
Is there a statement capping those specific projectiles lasers massively below SOL anyways? Or perphas you made it up....
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GeneralSol16
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He can't ******* fly at FTL levés, that was Max says. This is Classic Era, even the stats they scale to aren't as fast as their Teen Era ones, so not even an inconsistency for not having those speed levels yet.
The hell is that? We've characters lije Flash or Superman having statements of not being fast enough to do something related to their personal lives, but that doesn't mean they won't be MFTL+, especially since Ben 10K refers to doing anything else that isn't being a Hero.
Dude, the lightning isn't natural lightning, which means it isn't bounded by standards of them being MHS+, that's the ******* point.
Except here they are bases to say it's way higher than baseline FTL even Tachyons, whom have statements of being FTL, are actually MFTL+ as shown in the episode itself.
No one but you is saying that those lasers are just LS, they are not, they are faster than that.
They're energy beams, which can vary in fiction from subsonic to MFTL+ or even higher.
The episode never said that, and the Hyperspace is just a faster and easier way to travel, not limited to baseline FTL.
And that little talk that Ben had with himself was from his own POV, so not even an anti feat.
Which would just make Magic blasts upscale, not an anti feat.
To which the characters consistently react to.
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Calling it "cope" isn't an argument, if I can run at MFTL+ speed why does that mean I can travel through space at that speed? Where is the correlation?
Why does combat reaction correlate with space travel?
Constantly patrolling the planet means he is committing all of his time at the activity, not that it takes him a full day to run around the planet. If I work as a race car driver and I say I spent all day racing the track, does that mean it took me an entire day to circle the track once? Or do you think it just means I decided to dedicate a full days time to doing it over and over again?
Why? If it's non-natural lightning then it has no set speed, so where's the contradiction to them being MFTL+? If you admit it's non-natural lightning, why can't it also be MFTL+?
They aren't running as the lightning is moving, they're running and then the lightning hits the ground. Background civilians running away during superhero stories also just happens all the time in mediums like DC, Marvel, Invincible, etc.
I'm not being "arbitrary" in saying it could be FTL+ or higher, the argument is there's nothing implying this statement is limited to being below FTL+ and therefore it cannot contradict the FTL+ or above scaling. If anything, assuming FTL in Ben 10 can only mean 1 - 10x faster than light simply because a battle boarding website listed it as that is arbitrary lmfao
I'm not saying all FTL statements are MFTL+ statements, nor am I operating without evidence considering you admit there are MFTL+ feats for the verse.
Nice appeal to incredulity, you can phrase it to be as absurd as you want but without a meaningful engagement and argument then what's the point?
Okay, let's assume they're "basic speed projectiles". What speed does "basic speed projectiles" have? They don't have a set speed! Therefore, there is no contradiction to them hitting MFTL+ characters!
If it's not capped to the SoL then it therefore is below the SoL? That doesn't logically follow...
Why is it silly? We accept futuristic tech travelling at high speeds all the time, for instance Iron Man and Tech Jacket use technology and missiles to hit things that move at MFTL+ speed.
Why is the laser below MFTL+? The laser has no anti-feats.
I already responded to this, he's intending to use hyperspace so there's no reason for him to overexert himself and maximise his speed here.
By your own omission he's moving at LS, I don't care for this.
How? Jetray flies out of orbit, says "I'll have to use hyperspace travel" and then immediately jumps into hyperspace travel.
Whats wrong with magic projectiles being MFTL+? Does magic now have an on-site capped speed?
What about my point did you not understand?
The calc is measuring Kevin's physical movement proportional to the movement of the blast. You can't call aimdodging when it's measuring the literal bodily movement.
Why is that a defeater to them?
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Surrounding Context of Yellow Malware's "FTL Capability"
Ben 10 OV Episode 04 Trouble Helix
Post-OS Era Flashback
Malware: No! Your time is up!
Malware absorbs the Helix into him. He also grabs Albedo, enveloping him into his hand. He sprouts rocket feet and flies away.
Ben: (To Azmuth) So, friend of yours?
Azmuth blinks, displeased.
Ben, Gwen, Max and Azmuth run out of the building and look up towards the sky.
Gwen: This is hopeless! Malware flew off the planet. He could be anywhere!
Max: Not necessarily. He doesn't have FTL capability.
Ben: Awesome! Uh... What's FTL again?
Gwen: "Faster than light." Duh!
Ben: Oh! And that's good because...
Max: Because he can't have left the Galvan system...yet. (Readies his Skipper) Which means we can track him...if we're lucky.
Summary: "FTL capability" is in reference to space flight speed, not Combat/Reaction Speed.
Ben 10 OV Episode 04 Trouble Helix
Post-OS Era Flashback
Malware: No! Your time is up!
Malware absorbs the Helix into him. He also grabs Albedo, enveloping him into his hand. He sprouts rocket feet and flies away.
Ben: (To Azmuth) So, friend of yours?
Azmuth blinks, displeased.
Ben, Gwen, Max and Azmuth run out of the building and look up towards the sky.
Gwen: This is hopeless! Malware flew off the planet. He could be anywhere!
Max: Not necessarily. He doesn't have FTL capability.
Ben: Awesome! Uh... What's FTL again?
Gwen: "Faster than light." Duh!
Ben: Oh! And that's good because...
Max: Because he can't have left the Galvan system...yet. (Readies his Skipper) Which means we can track him...if we're lucky.
Summary: "FTL capability" is in reference to space flight speed, not Combat/Reaction Speed.
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Someone really needs to point out what consistency issues MFTL+ combat and reaction speed actually cause, since most of the examples brought up are, at best, travel speed inconsistencies.
These are not inconsistencies. Actual inconsistencies would be cases like Vilgax being defeated by Diamondhead despite having a speed advantage of billions of times, which would imply an unrealistic gap.
Similarly, it would be inconsistent if Feedback, a relatively mid-tier alien of Ben, had a speed difference of thousands of times compared to his other forms, or if Chromastone or Jetray were portrayed as having speed differences in the billions compared to the rest.
These characters have consistently been shown to be comparable in combat and reaction speed throughout the series, with only minor differences. Establishing such massive speed gaps between them would disrupt the established narrative and internal consistency. Anyone familiar with the series can recognize that such disparities would contradict how these characters are portrayed.
- A truck being thrown by a character with Tier 4 scaling and MFTL+ combat speed.
- A laser from alien technology specifically designed to deal with such aliens, particularly those comparable to Ben. There is also precedent in the verse for lasers reaching MFTL speeds.
- Jetray not dodging his own attack.
- Brainstorm using electrokinesis.
- Jetray getting tagged by Vilgax.
- Ghostfreak not escaping the room filled with light which would require a travel speed.
These are not inconsistencies. Actual inconsistencies would be cases like Vilgax being defeated by Diamondhead despite having a speed advantage of billions of times, which would imply an unrealistic gap.
Similarly, it would be inconsistent if Feedback, a relatively mid-tier alien of Ben, had a speed difference of thousands of times compared to his other forms, or if Chromastone or Jetray were portrayed as having speed differences in the billions compared to the rest.
These characters have consistently been shown to be comparable in combat and reaction speed throughout the series, with only minor differences. Establishing such massive speed gaps between them would disrupt the established narrative and internal consistency. Anyone familiar with the series can recognize that such disparities would contradict how these characters are portrayed.
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Waiting for people to respond to Rosa
ShionAH
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He has Outerversal stuff btw
Saqphire
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That's all Robo. Rosa didn't respond to me
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I don't want to clog up the thread further and i'm waiting for Firestorm's speed scaling
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This is Robo's thread. If you have the inconsistency scans related to combatt and reaction speed scaling different from the one pointed out by OP, then you might js send them first.
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Huh??????????
Then that's 100000% an issue with the verse's entire consistency and thus the highest speeds shouldn't be taken at face value. How can you say that and still conclude the highest possible is the consistent one when you have so many things contradicting it?
Like, I get the conversation moved on, but this comment genuinely baffled me.
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I think there is misunderstanding, there is no inconsistency regarding the reaction and combatt speed. All that are there are travel speed. Reaction and combatt speed are comparable throughout the series and there are many MFTL+ reaction feats.
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To have a proper consistency showing, you need to also account for the low ends. These show the high ends, cool.
How many low ends do they have?
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You misunderstood. I am specifically going against the notion that the character shouldn't always show their actual speed scaling. That shows are inconsistent when showing speed portrayals, and that somehow excuses low showings. Hell no. If the verse itself is inconsistent showing its speed, then sucks to be it, their speeds are inconsistent and should be analyzed with utmost care and not just look at the highest possible showings.
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My low ends you mean stuff that's casually done?
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Any showing at all. If they struggle with things not related to FTL and above stuff? That should be brought and weighted against the higher ends. To see which is the most consistent one.
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My inyerpretation regarding what qualifies as low ends might differs, since most are just getting tagged by Alien techs and alien techs in the verse has a precedent of being MFTL+. So you might just read the OP to get the view.
Animation cannot be perfectly consistent, even within a single episode, so expecting consistency across multiple series and episodes is unrealistic. Goku perceiving a gun as “not static” from "animation standpoint" does not mean he isn’t MFTL+. It’s simply not feasible to consistently portray MFTL+ speeds from an animation standpoint. If taken literally, characters at those speeds would perceive everything as completely static, which cannot be meaningfully depicted on screen. Characters like Vilgax, Chromastone, Jetray, and Aggregor are among the fastest fliers in the verse and are shown traveling interstellar distances with ease. Aggregor, in particular, is explicitly stated to not even require a spaceship to travel, even across galaxies. Because of this, we can’t disregard the broader narrative and important portrayal of these characters capabilities just because the animation doesn’t depict everything as entirely static from their perspective. That limitation is a result of presentation, not an accurate reflection of their actual speed.
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I mean, we commonly get stuff like this...
A "light laser" is being treated as MFTL+
Source
And yes, these types of speed descriptions are common... in most of the characters. Now, let me make this clear: Is this "feat" a direct antifeat? No, but they often use lasers as a solid way of attacking, and are often "barely dodged" or "dodged just enough".
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When these issues keep getting brought up, then that puts into question the higher end feats. When the animation keeps showing them struggling against bullets (to use a random example), maybe they actually aren't FTL. That's my point. When presented with both possibilities, which one is the most probable? We need to actually verify this to be able to say "yeah, these are their actual speeds" <----- This is why the Goku example falls apart. They have a lot of showings of their attacks reaching these levels of speed, and the low showings are memed to death, yet people can only bring up three or four against the plethora of higher showings in comparison. That's what proves consistency.
Then maybe, just maybe, that high speed only applies to flying like many have been trying to say? Hmmm...
Fact of the matter is, if they keep being presented as limited, then maybe your conclusion just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. But again... This is why everything needs to be put to the table. I myself can't say "yeah, MFTL is super inconsistent" quite simply because I don't have all the facts. Which now follows into:
I remember an episode where XLR8 could be seen as a blur on an Earth camera. That's a pretty darn good antifeat right there. The entire episode only worked because he got caught iirc, so there's narrative intent right there. Those are the low showings you need to look.
Also, that "alien tech has precedent of being MFTL" only works when you apply scaling. Of the feats brought in the above comment, it's very specific tech that seemingly have these feats.
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wouldn't this give XLR8 "varies" rating then, because he has the ability to ramp up his speeds
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